Save or Suck

[Seatbelt]

I built a wizard illusionist who focuses on save or suck spells, and he is wildly innefective. I have the option of rebuilding him (he got killed..). I dont expect him to ever get higher than level 12 because of DM preference. I've banned Transmutation (I know that's part of why he sucked so much.. but I did it for flavor reasons) and Evocation. I think he was partly so innefective because of a poor selection of spells known. I've never played an Arcane caster before. :P So can I get some suggestions on good spells from the other schools, or goot save or suck spells in general (that I havent banned. :P) I'd appreciate it.

[Wolf53226]

This link is to TLN's Guide to being batman, read it, learn it, exploit it:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500

This is one of the best, if not the best, breakdown of how to build/break the wizard class, complete with spell selection and all.

[MeklorIlavator]

You know, someone is going to have to make a new one at this rate, with all the new supplements coming out. To bad the threads locked and TLN got banned, otherwise he could update it.

But, yeah, that guide is really useful(I am basing my wizard off it)

[Bears With Lasers]

You banned transmutation. Remake.

With that said...
Level 1: Ray of Enfeeblement (no save, just "or suck"), Color Spray ("or lose"),
Level 2: Glitterdust (one of the best), Web, Minor Image (use it to create a roiling wall of fog... that your allies can see through, because you tell'em it's an illusion). Make the fog look dangerous somehow (acidic, wraiths in it, etc) to make enemies unlikely to interact with it, Ghoul Touch (touch range, careful).
Level 3: you don't have Slow, which is one of the absolute best. Deep Slumber is Save-or-Lose against creatures with < 10 HD. Suggestion, Stinking Cloud, Major Image, Ray of Exhaustion.
Level 4: Black Tentacles, Fear (save or lose), Confusion (save or wind up killing each other), Enervation (no save, just suck), Solid Fog (can't do anything until you get out).

Did you want non-core, too?

[Saph]

I'd second the Logic Ninja's thread. Bookmark it and look back over it whenever you need some extra ideas. :)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500

That said . . . IMO wizards are the most difficult class to play well in D&D, and the easiest to play badly. Don't be surprised if you run into problems while playing them. It takes a lot of practice (and an encyclopaedic knowledge of the spell list) to play wizards to full potential.

- Saph

[Bears With Lasers]

an encyclopaedic knowledge of the spell list

- Saph

Or, you know, the SRD pulled up on your laptop.

[Saph]

Or, you know, the SRD pulled up on your laptop.

Not enough, trust me.

- Saph

[martyboy74]

Or, you know, the SRD pulled up on your laptop.
Maybe if you entered all the spells out of the Spell Compendium; they aren't in the SRD. That's a hellishly big book to be paging through every round.

[Deus Mortus]

*cough*PDF file on your laptop and search function*cough*

[Bears With Lasers]

Maybe if you entered all the spells out of the Spell Compendium; they aren't in the SRD. That's a hellishly big book to be paging through every round.

If you're playing with the SpC, go through it during your down time and find the best spells; make a little list. (Or just find a list that's already been made by someone.)

[cupkeyk]

You will need a lot of splatbooks in order to effectively use illusion since Core Illusion doesn't get very powerful until the higher levels. As with ll save and sucks you may want to consider getting all the feats that improve your DCs like Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus and Heighten Spell. Judging from your choice of banned schools you took up Shadow Weave Magic. Illusion isn't as much save or suck as it is utility as creative, imaginative use lets you get away at using a few spells with various effects.

[Bears With Lasers]

As to Noncore illusion... look up Illusionary Pit.

[Seatbelt]

Thanks everybody. And yeah, noncore is good. I own the Spell Compendium, as well as Heroes of Horror/Battle, and the PHB2 (Kelgore's Gravemist is a cheap spell)

And yeah, I'm playing a Shadow Weave Adept

[The_Snark]

Cloud of Bewilderment is like Stinking Cloud Lite. Fairly useful.

If you have PHBII, you can also use those spells that cause your enemies to start attacking one another; one of those is illusion, I believe. Confusion can work for that too, but if you're already in combat it doesn't work very well.

[iceman]

One spell that comes to mind from the spell compendium is called sensory depravation (4th or 5th level) that completly eliminates the targets senses for a time. No sight, sound, taste, touch, or smell.
Sound lance is good against spell casters and rogues (that you can see/find)or any one else with a poor fort save. Plus it does d8/lvl damage and its sonic. Throw in a sudden maximize and almost any spell caster of equal level to you will probably be dropped.
Flamewhips can be a dangerous option to use (can't cast any spells for the duration rnd/lvl) but two touch attacks with flaming whips that do 6d6 points of fire damage and have 15 ft reach can get really interesting if used with the correct combination of spells.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

The best wizard advice I think I can give is this, although it may be a bit off-topic, albeit VERY helpful to wizards;Get Collegiate Wizard (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Collegiate_Wizard,CAr).

[Raum]

For an illusionist check out Blinding Color Surge, Vertigo, Vertigo Field, and Shadow Well from the SC. You'll also want to pick up some key spells from other schools that hit saves other than Will. Necromancy has some good Fort oriented spells. Reflex saves may be an issue with both Evocation and Transformation banned...you'll probably need to make sure you have a selection of no save spells to make up for it. Rays from a variety of schools will help, but you'll need to watch multiclassing...even PrCs will drop your BAB.

[TheOOB]

The best wizard advice I think I can give is this, although it may be a bit off-topic, albeit VERY helpful to wizards;Get Collegiate Wizard (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Collegiate_Wizard,CAr).

Really that feat isn't all that neccesary unless your DM is going to be stingy on the gold rewards (as opposed to items) or makes scrolls really hard to find.

The feat saves you money, quite a bit too, but it doesn't acually make you more powerful.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Really that feat isn't all that neccesary unless your DM is going to be stingy on the gold rewards (as opposed to items) or makes scrolls really hard to find.

The feat saves you money, quite a bit too, but it doesn't acually make you more powerful.
True, but the versatility and money saving I myself think is well worth it.

[Seatbelt]

I actually took that feat. My DM doesnt like to give out lots of treasure. He more or less told me after we explored this dungeon that all the treasure in it was designed for me (this dungeon explained my access to the shadow weave) and I wouldnt be getting anymore items specific to my Gnomish self. So yes, the feat is very useful. :P

Thanks though, this has been pretty helpful. Keep 'em comming. :)

[AtomicKitKat]

Bestow Curse, Ray of Enfeeblement, Chill Touch. Paralysed enemies(Well, anyone with less than about 13-18 Strength goes in 1 touch, add 1 per Strength over 13-18.), for when you can't guarantee that Hold Person/Monster will work(or lack the spell slots).

Dangerous, but oh so delicious.

Ghoul Touch would be the faster way, but sometimes you don't want to kill the target(or leave them held), just make them unable to fight back for a few days(1 ability damage healed per day), so that you can interrogate them.

The combination of Ray of Enfeeblement/Fatigue also works, since the Ray drops their carrying capacity, and the Fatigue lowers it further. Too bad I can't think of any spells in the Temple of Elemental Evil CRPG that cause Fatigue(besides the Barbarian Rage, that is).

[Morty]

That's funny... it says that Collegiate Wizard is from Complete Arcane, but I can't seem to find it there, and it doesn't have any pages missing.

[AtomicKitKat]

I think Collegiate Wizard was stuck in some page other than the main Feats page. I vaguely remember that.

[Morty]

Yep, there it is. It's in the chapter about arcane organizations. Well, it's overpowered anyway.

[Bears With Lasers]

Yep, there it is. It's in the chapter about arcane organizations. Well, it's overpowered anyway.

How so? Really, it just makes spell acquisition a little easier--with a bit of effort, you can get those spells anyway; it just saves you a bit of gold and effort.

[Person_Man]

You know, someone is going to have to make a new one at this rate, with all the new supplements coming out. To bad the threads locked and TLN got banned, otherwise he could update it.

But, yeah, that guide is really useful(I am basing my wizard off it)

Hey, I'd been wondering where TLN has been. Do you know why he got banned? I assume he got into one too many flame wars.

Back on topic: I find that its generally poor strategy to specialize in a type of spells. D&D combat is essentially an elaborate game of Rochambeau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock,_Paper,_Scissors). When you face an enemy, ask yourself what Save is a weak Save for that type of enemy (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monsterTypes.html). Use a spell that depends on that Save. Or if the creature has all three good Saves (like a Dragon) then cast a Summon spell or a no Save spell (like a Power Word, or Moon Bow) or a battlefield control spell, where it doesn't matter if they make their Save or not.

This is why battlefield control spells are generally considered the most powerful. It doesn't matter if your enemy makes their Save. It doesn't matter if your DM fakes die rolls. The spell just works.

Upon learning this, the natural response of many players is to specialize in battlefield control spells. Again, I would avoid specializing in a type of spells. The DM has plenty of time to prepare and wants to make some of your combats difficult, so playing a Wizard that constantly casts battlefield control spells just prompts your DM to send more flying and/or magic immune creatures at you. But if you mix up your spell use and try and be creative, combat tends to be more interesting for everyone.

[Bears With Lasers]

Just a note: creatures with "all good" base saves can still have a "weak" save--for dragons, that's Reflex due to their low DEX, and their Will is inevitable lower than their Fort. A wizard can get his DCs up to the "standard dragon without Will-save-boosting feats fails his will save 50% of the time vs. higher-level spells" range without too much trouble.

Plus there's Enervation. -1 to saves for each negative level, adds up fast. A Wand of Enervation is 21,000 gp, but nevertheless can be a fairly wise investment for a higher-level character.

[AtomicKitKat]

Plus there's Enervation. -1 to saves for each negative level, adds up fast. A Wand of Enervation is 21,000 gp, but nevertheless can be a fairly wise investment for a higher-level character.

Ahh, Enervation. Ray of Enfeeblement's "Big Brother". Being able to lower their attack rolls, and saves by 1 point each makes them easier to set up for Bestow Curse(even worse saves, make them stand and drool, or drop whatever stat you want{preferrably their lowest, if not, Strength, to help RoE even more} to even more abyssmal levels), or some form of paralysis. Too bad that like most SorS spells, it tends to stink vs Undead, Constructs, etc.:smallwink:

[Person_Man]

Ahh, Enervation. Ray of Enfeeblement's "Big Brother". Being able to lower their attack rolls, and saves by 1 point each makes them easier to set up for Bestow Curse(even worse saves, make them stand and drool, or drop whatever stat you want{preferrably their lowest, if not, Strength, to help RoE even more} to even more abyssmal levels), or some form of paralysis. Too bad that like most SorS spells, it tends to stink vs Undead, Constructs, etc.:smallwink:

You and Bears make an excellent point.

Note that Enervation has no Save whatsoever, just a ranged touch attack and SR.

And its a ray spell, which makes it perfect for Split Ray metamagic. It might even be a good choice for Arcane Thesis. That way you could pick up Spilt Ray (Comp Arcane), Ocular Spell (Lords of Madness), and Arcane Thesis (PHBII), and use a 6th level spell slot to deal 4d4 negative levels in 1 round. You might even be able to throw on Fell Drain (Libris Mortis) for 1-4 additional negative levels, depending upon how your DM interprets Fell Drain.

[Ditto]

I just found this delightful metamagic called Fell Weaken, +1 SL (from BoVD, I think... it was on CrystalKeep's list). When you hit with your spell, -4 Str. Add that baby to a Ray of Enfeeblement and a Ray of Exhaustion and you'll drop *anything*. It's wonderful.

I'm a fan of collegiate wizard + Craft Wand + Craft Wondrous Item. CW is a pain to keep track of *twice* as many spells for, but when you don't have to waste valuable spell slots on Bull's Strength, Eagle's Splendor, etc. - but can still use them for a Cloak of Charisma crafting - it's great. My current CW character has like 6 wands of utility spells, it's wonderful.

Yeah, if you need an 'encyclopedic list', just pull up TLN's guide. Add a few more spells for flavor. If you take CW, you're going to have a *very* hard time finding spells to fill up all the pages in your spell book. Lvl9 = 42 spells known... :smallbiggrin:

[Person_Man]

I just found this delightful metamagic called Fell Weaken, +1 SL (from BoVD, I think... it was on CrystalKeep's list). When you hit with your spell, -4 Str. Add that baby to a Ray of Enfeeblement and a Ray of Exhaustion and you'll drop *anything*. It's wonderful.

I know for a fact that Fell Weaken doesn't stack with other Fell Weakened spells. I don't have the feat in front of me, but I'm not sure whether or not it allows a Save to resist the Str penalty, or whether or not it would stack with other Str penalties (I always have to re-read the "does it stack" articles). Could somebody clear that up?

If it does, it'd definitely be a good low level combo.