Polymorph and the Sorcerer

[numerek]

I've read the Polymorph and Concentration thread but it was about turning people into dragons. And how their attacks aren't much better than a fighters except for the breath weapon + survivability. And that is actually True Polymorph. This thread is about a much lower level usage. A sorcerer with nothing special at all, doesn't need 20 charisma, or 10 charisma, doesn't need any special feats, no fancy multi classing, does not rely on a origin. This sorcerer at level 7 can turn 2 party members into Giant Apes, not just once a day, not twice a day, 3 times a day. Level seven gets 7 sorcery points + 4 first level + 3 second level + 3 third level spells which equals 26 sorcery points, 4 to twin the one 4th level slot, then 20 points to get 2 more 4th level slots and twin them. This leaves them with 2 first level or 1 second level spell.

Arguments:
1. They are using everything that they get to do this.
Reply: I understand, the above is to illustrate a point, it is a very powerful tool that their arsenal has.

2. The Sorcerer would be better off casting X spell or T, U, V... spells.
Reply: If that is true that is only worse.

3. The DM/NPCs can do the same thing.
Reply: Well the DM can just throw us up against Giant Apes, Or Giant Ape eating Wyrms. The DM can also put you up against "Sorcerer's that don't turn two of their Allies into Giant Apes" eating Wyrms, So I guess players are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Point is I feel the DM meta gaming encounters to counter player tactics is a flawed argument. I would rather be able to play my character the way I see best and not have the DM to have to meta game against me.

4. Giant Apes aren't better than level 7 PC.
Reply: 15d12+60 hit points 40 speed 40 climb 23 str 14 dex 18 con, 2 attacks +9 to hit reach 10' 3d10 + 6, Damage wise a Great weapon master can probably win but not with the +9 accuracy, the Great weapon would probably be swinging with at best a +3 accuracy for 2d6+15+{Whatever else they can get from their class}. Saves are a bit of an issue but not really that much worse than a standard PC every character besides maybe Paladin is going to have multiple weak save stats.

5. Polymorph is a concentration spell.
Reply: You notice how I didn't say that he cast it on himself, or that he even does anything during any fight. That is right I feel that this tactic is so strong, the sorcerer doesn't even need to spam his cantrips. He can maybe help with cleanup at the end once it doesn't matter about losing concentration or when the hour is about up. He can maybe be a scout or something else outside the combat zone to stay busy. (Also the premise was a sorcerer that is nothing special, if you played a sorcerer with 19 con, 20 cha + resilient feat at 4th, warcaster at 8th or vice versa bringing con to 20, half elf with good rolls then your cantrips will spam better and you should have a good chance of making the concentration saves.)

6. Beast Only go up to CR 8.
Reply: That is the current max, and may not ever go higher but it is still very powerful for many levels.

7. This isn't Overpowered, this is just your opinion, you don't know what your talking about.
Reply: You maybe right, 942 free hit points a day, and this is versus a druid's wild shape which has to devote its Circle to which only gets one Polar bear at a time, which I've read stuff that it competes pretty good against a 6th level NPC at 42 hp 20 str 10 dex 16 con 40 feet 30 swim one +7 to hit 1d8+5 one +7 to hit 2d6+5 attack. It could also be used just to save someone about to die. Is there another spell below level 5 with a 60' range that gives 157 temporary hit points.

8. Giant Apes are Huge/other situational arguments.
Reply: Everything is situational. This is just one of 8 spells known, you have many options for other situations, use some of the T, U, V, X spells from argument 2. And another meta magic option.

9. Game designers said its fine.
Reply: They are the same ones that left it in when this spell has been an issue since it was first introduced.

10. The polymorphed players won't be able to use X ability.
Reply: They can actually use those abilities whenever they want to, hey this fight I want to blow my X ability before you polymorph me. Alright I was actually wanting to cast this spell to try it out, how about you do this whole fight without polymorph. Cool.

11. DM can disallow/nerf it.
Reply: Yes he can and that is what I will be recommending to my DM, probably a divide by 3 like the druid. The Druid's ability will then be better which I am fine with, I think one classes primary ability(besides full caster) with archetype extra boost can be better than one out of a 100+ spells available to a sorcerer.

[Surrealistik]

Stuff like this is exactly why I've always argued that effectively free HP from polymorphing needs to go as a blanket rule; any damage that a creature takes while polymorphed should transfer to that creature's normal hit point pool when the polymorph effect ends.

[Shadow]

Have you ever seen a giant ape?
I realize that the spell has no such requirement, but the DM would be well within his rights to require it himeslf.

[numerek]

Have you ever seen a giant ape?
I realize that the spell has no such requirement, but the DM would be well within his rights to require it himeslf.

That would fall under argument 11

[Shadow]

That would fall under argument 11

Yes, but I think that's the simplest and most elegant solution. Nerfing the possible HP seems too harsh for a spell slot (which are limited enough in 5e). If the sorc wants to create a roflstomp for three encounters and then be useless for the other (average) 50% of the day, more power to him.
And if he starts doing it every day, then all the DM has to do is make the mobs flee in terror at the sight, returning when things seem less crazy (thus negating the defeat xp on the earlier one) and now the sorc has less tools (or no tools) to work with but still has all of the encounters for the day left.... while he's already spent before they start.
He'll learn his lesson soon enough.

Don't try to game me while I'm behind the screen as DM. I will always win that battle.

[Vhaluus]

He has made this post with set preconditions Shadow and you come in and just ignore them.

If you can't contribute within the context he lays out, he obviously doesn't want your contribution.

Also I am glad you will never DM any of my games. a DM should never 'win', the DM is there to facilitate for players.

[Shadow]

He has made this post with set preconditions Shadow and you come in and just ignore them.

If you can't contribute within the context he lays out, he obviously doesn't want your contribution.

Also I am glad you will never DM any of my games. a DM should never 'win', the DM is there to facilitate for players.

I didn't ignore them at all. I described exactly how I would allow it. If a player wanted to abuse it on a regular basis, I would abuse my power to show him that, while finding little ways to game the system once in a while will be tolerated, it will not be tolerated on a regular basis.
I completely worked within the confines of what he laid out, and I don't care if you don't like my answer.

[ambartanen]

Seems to me the biggest problem with your plan is that your allies might not be fine with spending the majority of fights being forcibly transformed into dumb brutes that cannot speak or do anything useful but follow your instructions. Polymorphed characters also lose their class abilties, skill and save proficiencies and so on so the giant ape form doesn't even seem all that powerful to me. Oh, right, they also can't use magic gear and most interesting monsters at those levels have resistance to non-magical damage which makes them an even worse choice for fighting serious enemies, not to mention any intelligent BBEG seriously inconvenienced by the ape tactic can just slam the sorcerer with something forcing concentration checks. Of course, they can just have some minions on a high ledge pepper the apes with arrows and the dumb beasts will probably spend the whole fight chasing down the minions. If they don't, then the GM should just take over control of the apes since they aren't being roleplayed accurately.

So if a sorcerer went through the effort of learning about giant apes and getting polymorph, I would definitely allow the group to do this. It's an interesting tactic and quite effective in the right situation. There are still a million ways to shut it down when it's important even if the players don't get bored of using it after a few times. And, as already mentioned, even if the players want to spam this tactic every chance they get, the sorcerer still won't be able to do it more than half the time.

[Giant2005]

I'm sure your Monk buddy would love being turned into a Giant Ape. At that level he would have 4 attacks with Flurry and so some pretty serious damage with those fists. Also you don't really need allies for such a technique - I'm sure your Familiar wouldn't mind the chance to be the big man on campus for an hour.

[ambartanen]

I'm sure your Monk buddy would love being turned into a Giant Ape. At that level he would have 4 attacks with Flurry and so some pretty serious damage with those fists.

Well, no, because he isn't a monk anymore just a giant ape. The only thing a monk would keep is (a severely dumbed down version of) their personality and alignment.

[Shining Wrath]

Seems to me the biggest problem with your plan is that your allies might not be fine with spending the majority of fights being forcibly transformed into dumb brutes that cannot speak or do anything useful but follow your instructions. Polymorphed characters also lose their class abilties, skill and save proficiencies and so on so the giant ape form doesn't even seem all that powerful to me. Oh, right, they also can't use magic gear and most interesting monsters at those levels have resistance to non-magical damage which makes them an even worse choice for fighting serious enemies, not to mention any intelligent BBEG seriously inconvenienced by the ape tactic can just slam the sorcerer with something forcing concentration checks. Of course, they can just have some minions on a high ledge pepper the apes with arrows and the dumb beasts will probably spend the whole fight chasing down the minions. If they don't, then the GM should just take over control of the apes since they aren't being roleplayed accurately.

So if a sorcerer went through the effort of learning about giant apes and getting polymorph, I would definitely allow the group to do this. It's an interesting tactic and quite effective in the right situation. There are still a million ways to shut it down when it's important even if the players don't get bored of using it after a few times. And, as already mentioned, even if the players want to spam this tactic every chance they get, the sorcerer still won't be able to do it more than half the time.

It doesn't have to be fellow PC's, though - find a low IQ commoner who enjoys being an ape and his equally low IQ sister, hire them for 2 SP / day.

[pwykersotz]

Commoners and Familiars won't work, the beast their turned into needs to be an equal or lesser CR/Level than the target. You need a legit level 7 or CR 7 to pull this off. Also, you don't retain your class abilities through Polymorph (you might be thinking of Wild Shape) so a Monk gets no extra benefits.

[Surrealistik]

It doesn't have to be fellow PC's, though - find a low IQ commoner who enjoys being an ape and his equally low IQ sister, hire them for 2 SP / day.

Hilarious. I can only imagine the classified for that:

"Mentally challenged individuals wanted to 'go ape' several times a day for indefinite period. Must be comfortable with extensive travel, dangerous situations, being transformed into a mindless murderbeast and ordered to pummel things to death with bare hands. Pay non-negotiable at 2 silver daily. Irregular benefits. Employer not responsible for death or dismemberment incurred during term of contract."

[Iku Rex]

A sorcerer who keeps turning people into giant apes?

I guess that makes him a ... serial apist.

[da_chicken]

A sorcerer who keeps turning people into giant apes?

I guess that makes him a ... serial apist.

Obligatory (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o).

[Surrealistik]

A sorcerer who keeps turning people into giant apes?

I guess that makes him a ...

•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)

serial apist.

Fixed. 10char


Obligatory (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o).

[da_chicken]

I'm convinced that is the only reason that show still exists.

[roko10]

Hilarious. I can only imagine the classified for that:

"Mentally challenged individuals wanted to 'go ape' several times a day for indefinite period. Must be comfortable with extensive travel, dangerous situations, being transformed into a mindless murderbeast and ordered to pummel things to death with bare hands. Pay non-negotiable at 2 silver daily. Irregular benefits. Employer not responsible for death or dismemberment incurred during term of contract."

Do you have any problem if I sig this?

[Surrealistik]

Do you have any problem if I sig this?

Lol, not at all.

[Shining Wrath]

Hilarious. I can only imagine the classified for that:

"Mentally challenged individuals wanted to 'go ape' several times a day for indefinite period. Must be comfortable with extensive travel, dangerous situations, being transformed into a mindless murderbeast and ordered to pummel things to death with bare hands. Pay non-negotiable at 2 silver daily. Irregular benefits. Employer not responsible for death or dismemberment incurred during term of contract."

"You'd have to be an idiot to take this ... oh, yeah"

[numerek]

If the sorc wants to create a roflstomp for three encounters and then be useless for the other (average) 50% of the day, more power to him.

Argument 1

More specific reply:

The spell lasts for an hour, the way you dm is it encounter short rest repeat 6 times per day, if so warlocks would be quite powerful.



And if he starts doing it every day, then all the DM has to do is make the mobs flee in terror at the sight, returning when things seem less crazy (thus negating the defeat xp on the earlier one) and now the sorc has less tools (or no tools) to work with but still has all of the encounters for the day left.... while he's already spent before they start.
He'll learn his lesson soon enough.

Don't try to game me while I'm behind the screen as DM. I will always win that battle.

Arguments 1, 3, 8

More specific reply:

Assuming at least a 4 man party means that there are still minimum 1 more character that can try to crowd control the mobs, and the great apes have more movement than many pcs and would be able to see from a higher perspective than many pcs, so the same tactic can be used against many groups not just the one I described. Seems like what I would learn from your lessons would be to wait and cast polymorph when I was more certain they can't get away. But still I think my reply to argument 3 handles this best.


Seems to me the biggest problem with your plan is that your allies might not be fine with spending the majority of fights being forcibly transformed into dumb brutes that cannot speak or do anything useful but follow your instructions. ... Of course, they can just have some minions on a high ledge pepper the apes with arrows and the dumb beasts will probably spend the whole fight chasing down the minions. If they don't, then the GM should just take over control of the apes since they aren't being roleplayed accurately.

I did not really specifically mention the other player buy in argument though argument 10 somewhat covers it. Giant apes would presumably be of the primate family and they have 7 intelligence which is well within the range that an PC could have. Only one lower that some one using the point buy and dumping intelligence. They also have 12 wisdom and 7 charisma those stats maybe around what your typical barbarian character would have. There is nothing in the polymorph description that says that they follow my commands. THe apes have a climb speed and would be able to jump pretty well plus the reach from being huge, that ledge would have to be quite high indeed and how would a PC group without giant apes be doing so much better in such a situation.


Polymorphed characters also lose their class abilties, skill and save proficiencies and so on so the giant ape form doesn't even seem all that powerful to me.

Arguments 7 and 10


Oh, right, they also can't use magic gear and most interesting monsters at those levels have resistance to non-magical damage which makes them an even worse choice for fighting serious enemies

I also did not specifically cover this but giant apes actually do have hands, Granted you would have to have equipment that are sized for huge creatures. But such things do potentially exist. There are also many ways to make mundane weapons magical. Also grappling/shoving doesn't require magical weapons and being a meatshield doesn't require such things.


not to mention any intelligent BBEG seriously inconvenienced by the ape tactic can just slam the sorcerer with something forcing concentration checks.

Argument 5, the BBEG doesn't even have to necessarily know that there is a sorcerer.


There are still a million ways to shut it down when it's important even if the players don't get bored of using it after a few times. And, as already mentioned, even if the players want to spam this tactic every chance they get, the sorcerer still won't be able to do it more than half the time.

Arguments 1, 3, 8

I'm not sure whether I was clear with argument 3, but you can take any tactic or any set of tactics and shut it down with dm meta gaming or just raising the difficulty of the encounter to high. There is nothing specific about polymorph team mates into powerful beasts that changes that or makes it any easier to do.

[numerek]

I have now seen this in play, my DM didn't nerf the spell. And it is as bad as I thought. Even against creatures that are resistant to non magical damage. The Giant Apes and at 8th level T. Rex's are very powerful, it doesn't matter that they have low ac when they have so many hit points that they don't care about, oh they just took 12 attacks at 20 damage each that would have killed any two other party members, no big deal they still have 74 hit points left til they get to go back to their regular hit point pool and their regular class abilities that they haven't had to use any short rest or long rest abilities of. At plus 9/10 to hit nobody including people with magic weapons and spend their ability score increases to increase their stat that effects to hit had a +9 at 7th level or a +10 at 8th. The sorcerer has only lost concentration 1 time and he had still gone thru about half the hit points of the beasts, He has shield spell and a 15 ac and bend luck so things have to roll pretty well to be able to hit him.

We are still level 8 so I will have to see how long it stays useful.

And we are a 6 person party so there is 3 people plus the sorcerer to handle people fleeing or what not.