That Which Sleeps

[Driderman]

Alright, so usually I don't really bother telling other people about games in my spare time (since that's also what I do when I'm at work :) ) but there's this promising looking indie title that'll go Kickstarter before long.
It's a board-game like Evil Overlord simulator that sounds like it could be lots of fun and one of the (two) developers are actually answering questions about the game on Bay12 forums (and taking suggestions) so that's really great as well.

Links:

Kickstarter page: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141997.0

http://www.indiedb.com/games/that-which-sleeps/news

I definitely recommend checking this out, it seems like it should be just the thing for many a Playgrounder.

[Driderman]

Well that's a suprising lack of interest :smalleek:

I'm not a bot, just FYI :smallamused:

[Avilan the Grey]

Hmm

Won't invest in it, but I will keep an eye on it.

[Driderman]

Hmm

Won't invest in it, but I will keep an eye on it.

I'm just surprised nobody seems to be interested in it, I think it sounds like an awesome type of game. I was considering giving this link to the dev who takes the time to talk about the game there, but it doesn't really seem necessary with this amount of interest. I guess maybe they're just using the Bay12 thread. :smallamused:

[KingDGames]

I'm just surprised nobody seems to be interested in it, I think it sounds like an awesome type of game. I was considering giving this link to the dev who takes the time to talk about the game there, but it doesn't really seem necessary with this amount of interest. I guess maybe they're just using the Bay12 thread. :smallamused:

Thanks for the shout out Driderman! I try to actively hunt down any threads that pop up and say hello - we're both big fans of user involvement in design, especially in regards to mod capabilities. I think we haven't had as big a response as we'd liked because of the lack of gameplay footage, which we tried to correct with our Dev Video series. Here's a link to the first two, hopefully it will turn a few heads.

DevLog #1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-VRnQ7piJg) - In which I have a bad mic
DevLog #2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K461KtsmEQk) - Good Mic but Music is too loud

I'll check back if anyone has any questions

[Driderman]

Thanks for the shout out Driderman! I try to actively hunt down any threads that pop up and say hello - we're both big fans of user involvement in design, especially in regards to mod capabilities. I think we haven't had as big a response as we'd liked because of the lack of gameplay footage, which we tried to correct with our Dev Video series. Here's a link to the first two, hopefully it will turn a few heads.

DevLog #1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-VRnQ7piJg) - In which I have a bad mic
DevLog #2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K461KtsmEQk) - Good Mic but Music is too loud

I'll check back if anyone has any questions

Once the demo hits, or the game releases, and this thread starts to fill up with awesome reports of how awesome the game is, I'm sure interest will pick up. Considering the people here are often roleplayers, who seem to enjoy the kind of stories that cook up in games like Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis and such I think this game will be right up their alley :smallamused:

[Brother Oni]

Looks like an interesting premise - I'll keep an eye on it.

[Legato Endless]

Yeah, playing an awakening eldritch abomination and manipulating your enemies sounds quite charming.

[Driderman]

It does, doesn't it? Also, personally, I have a fondness for computer games that sort-of simulate board games, probably since I'm an avid boardgamer as well but don't get to actually play much these days.

[KingDGames]

It does, doesn't it? Also, personally, I have a fondness for computer games that sort-of simulate board games, probably since I'm an avid boardgamer as well but don't get to actually play much these days.

Yeah, Boardgames are such an important influence to us - they've had to create such interesting mechanics because of their limitations and a lot of it is ingenious. Migrating that back to the PC and then leveraging what a PC can do makes for some novel gameplay.

Third Dev Log posted, let me know if you have any feedback - also our KS will be live Sep 22nd. Wish us well (or throw money at us)!

Dev Log 3 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neOqkdZOhiQ)

[Aragehaor]

Well, I'm without a doubt going to back this game when it arrives on KS, I hope your happy with what you'll inevitably be doing to my wallet.

I liked that money.

[Razade]

Yeah, Boardgames are such an important influence to us - they've had to create such interesting mechanics because of their limitations and a lot of it is ingenious. Migrating that back to the PC and then leveraging what a PC can do makes for some novel gameplay.

Third Dev Log posted, let me know if you have any feedback - also our KS will be live Sep 22nd. Wish us well (or throw money at us)!

Dev Log 3 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neOqkdZOhiQ)

Are you guys going to do a demo? Having seen/followed a lot of kickstarters it really helps out giving potential players a little something to play around with. You might find this thread to be very useful for ideas (http://forums.pixelscopic.com/chit-chat/delving-into-kickstarter-discussing-active-crowdfunding-campaigns/).

[Brother Oni]

Yeah, Boardgames are such an important influence to us - they've had to create such interesting mechanics because of their limitations and a lot of it is ingenious. Migrating that back to the PC and then leveraging what a PC can do makes for some novel gameplay.

Indeed. One of the criticisms of the Space Hulk game by Full Control is that it's too true to the board game, thus is slower than you'd expect, with less customisation options than desired. To answer that, they're releasing Space Hulk Ascension, which has more RPG elements and probably the game that people expected them to make.

In my opinion, the main advantage that PC games offer is book-keeping. In the Space Hulk Board game, one you activated a model, you had to spend all its APs before moving onto the next one - this limitation doesn't exist in the PC version, which leads to more interesting gameplay (you can move the heavy weapon marine out of the way, let a SB marine shoot the single screening 'stealer, then move the HW back in to kill the large group of 'stealers).


Dev Log 3 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neOqkdZOhiQ)

Could you please turn down the background music a bit for future blogs? It can be a bit hard to hear your dialogue over the top.

Edit: Ah, I see you've already noted that issue

Other than that, it sounds interesting and Baron Greywind looks to be a pretty good agent to recruit. :smalltongue:

Must not spend more money, must not spend more money....

[GloatingSwine]

Indeed. One of the criticisms of the Space Hulk game by Full Control is that it's too true to the board game, thus is slower than you'd expect, with less customisation options than desired. To answer that, they're releasing Space Hulk Ascension, which has more RPG elements and probably the game that people expected them to make.


I'm fairly sure that would have mattered a lot less if there had been a scenario editor in it. Part of the problem is that the included scenarios in the original Space Hulk board game aren't really very good and have largely been solved for optimal appoach, so recreating them faithfully left a bit of a content weakness. But obv you could build your own because it's all just whacking tiles together (and they printed loads in White Dwarf back in the day).

[Brother Oni]

I'm fairly sure that would have mattered a lot less if there had been a scenario editor in it. Part of the problem is that the included scenarios in the original Space Hulk board game aren't really very good and have largely been solved for optimal appoach, so recreating them faithfully left a bit of a content weakness. But obv you could build your own because it's all just whacking tiles together (and they printed loads in White Dwarf back in the day).

Spoilered as we're heading off topic.


Deathwing had a random map maker, but I think the main issue with letting people design their own is balance.

Much like other games where people can make their own maps, the problem is self sorting as all the crap maps get downvoted or fixed, leaving only the good ones, but I don't think Full Control had the resources to support this.
I'm also unsure of how map making in the Unity engine works, but that may be another obstacle.

Finally letting people build their own makes it hard for the developers to sell their own DLC campaigns.

[GloatingSwine]

Spoilered as we're heading off topic.


Deathwing had a random map maker, but I think the main issue with letting people design their own is balance.

Much like other games where people can make their own maps, the problem is self sorting as all the crap maps get downvoted or fixed, leaving only the good ones, but I don't think Full Control had the resources to support this.
I'm also unsure of how map making in the Unity engine works, but that may be another obstacle.

Finally letting people build their own makes it hard for the developers to sell their own DLC campaigns.


Sure, people will build cheese maps if you give them a map editor, but as Space Hulk is a one shot experience you don't get anything out of using a cheese map, and it means you need to put a bit more effort into your DLC (but not so much, because if the mapmaking community takes off you just make sure each of your official expansions has new things for them to put in their custom maps).

It was still a big part of having Space Hulk back in the day though, and its lack is probably the biggest downfall of the computerised version

[KingDGames]

Sure, people will build cheese maps if you give them a map editor, but as Space Hulk is a one shot experience you don't get anything out of using a cheese map, and it means you need to put a bit more effort into your DLC (but not so much, because if the mapmaking community takes off you just make sure each of your official expansions has new things for them to put in their custom maps).

It was still a big part of having Space Hulk back in the day though, and its lack is probably the biggest downfall of the computerised version

Couldn't agree more, this is an excellent point about isolating the mechanic or the theme that made a game a true classic. Ease of modularity was an innovation in board games, and yet for some reason we hardly see the equivalent in PC games that embrace the same gameplay. A game that was a huge inspiration for our in-game editor was Duel of Ages (and its sequel), a game that was all about modularity, emergent gameplay from a variety of chaotic combinations, and your own ability to contribute to the game. The time I spent making my own cards... if this was a PC game why couldn't I simply click on the card and change it, spawning a duplicate to add to the game?

That was our goal with That Which Sleeps when it came to modding, even originally we conceived of it as a "CDG for PCs", where you can make your event deck, modify the rules, and change the stats and interactions of the pieces on the board. The idea later congealed into a more formalized strategy game after much testing, but the underlying system that we used to build the game is a part of the engine and always accessible - it's as simple as clicking on a menu item you want to change and it flips over to edit mode (when you enable editor mode).

As to what you said later, curating the results is always a problem - we're implementing Steamworks to allow for voting. Not a perfect solution, but I've worked with the Steamworks API and it's "good enough."

[Brother Oni]

Sure, people will build cheese maps if you give them a map editor, but as Space Hulk is a one shot experience you don't get anything out of using a cheese map, and it means you need to put a bit more effort into your DLC (but not so much, because if the mapmaking community takes off you just make sure each of your official expansions has new things for them to put in their custom maps).

It was still a big part of having Space Hulk back in the day though, and its lack is probably the biggest downfall of the computerised version

Sorry, I'm confusing my time spent playing the boardgame version with the PC version - typically after one game is complete, the marine and stealer player switch around, so if a map is unbalanced, both players experience being at both ends of the cheese.

You're right in that the PC version, each map is a one shot experience (unless you can't crack it) since there isn't a stealer campaign.

I think something Full Control could do that would significantly extend the longevity - introduce Traitor Terminators for multiplayer only. Set up the scenario suitably so that it doesn't get stuck into a static overwatch match (blind grenades) and you'd have a vastly different tactical experience.


Couldn't agree more, this is an excellent point about isolating the mechanic or the theme that made a game a true classic. Ease of modularity was an innovation in board games, and yet for some reason we hardly see the equivalent in PC games that embrace the same gameplay. A game that was a huge inspiration for our in-game editor was Duel of Ages (and its sequel), a game that was all about modularity, emergent gameplay from a variety of chaotic combinations, and your own ability to contribute to the game. The time I spent making my own cards... if this was a PC game why couldn't I simply click on the card and change it, spawning a duplicate to add to the game?

It's good to see that you're thinking about modding in advance and even making it easier for those not technically able.

I think technical ability and proprietary systems are probably the two biggest hurdles to being able to modify PC games and by either removing or lowering the threshold of those issues, it should help raise the popularity of your game and extend its longevity.

[GloatingSwine]

Sorry, I'm confusing my time spent playing the boardgame version with the PC version - typically after one game is complete, the marine and stealer player switch around, so if a map is unbalanced, both players experience being at both ends of the cheese.

True, and in the boardgame version that had its uses (essentially: Here is an impossible scenario lets see who can get the furthest. Also the point of the game Lost Patrol). And the computer versions with hotseat multi would also allow the same sort of thing.

I'm not sure a terms vs. terms game mode would be necessarily the best way to extend the game though, because Space Hulk was designed to be inherently asymmetrical.

In which vein, to hove this back on topic based on reading the thread over at Bay12, I would say that the best way to make TWS multiplayer would be to make it asymmetrical, keep one Great Old One and give other players other roles in the game (leaders or champions, possibly an indirect influence system like Majesty where they set quests for AI heroes as well as having their avatar who has unique tasks and restrictions), rather than competing Great Old Ones, because that also means that the sleepers don't have to be balanced against each other for human players.

It would require significant thought to balance (ie who could do what and where when playing as factions) in order to not simply be able to crush the sleeper early game. But it would probably produce better multiplayer experience than competing sleepers.

[KingDGames]

True, and in the boardgame version that had its uses (essentially: Here is an impossible scenario lets see who can get the furthest. Also the point of the game Lost Patrol). And the computer versions with hotseat multi would also allow the same sort of thing.

I'm not sure a terms vs. terms game mode would be necessarily the best way to extend the game though, because Space Hulk was designed to be inherently asymmetrical.

In which vein, to hove this back on topic based on reading the thread over at Bay12, I would say that the best way to make TWS multiplayer would be to make it asymmetrical, keep one Great Old One and give other players other roles in the game (leaders or champions, possibly an indirect influence system like Majesty where they set quests for AI heroes as well as having their avatar who has unique tasks and restrictions), rather than competing Great Old Ones, because that also means that the sleepers don't have to be balanced against each other for human players.

It would require significant thought to balance (ie who could do what and where when playing as factions) in order to not simply be able to crush the sleeper early game. But it would probably produce better multiplayer experience than competing sleepers.

Oh you had to go all Asymmetric on me, did you? So back before we started working on a PC strategy release, I was obsessed with creating a version of Space Station 13 and Mush(the french social induction type game) that did EXACTLY what you talk about in HTML5, technologically structured after Neptune's Pride 2. The concept would have been that X players play the game over the course of Y days, and Z of them are actually traitors serving the dark one.

The idea boiled down to a simpler prototype of Asymmetric warfare called The King is Dead, which we got into a playable state but decided monetizing it wouldn't be worth the hassle vs actually making a fun in-depth strategy game. I do hope to go back to it at some point, but those games rely on "emergent gameplay" with player interaction vs actually designing complex gameplay so they can be less interesting to develop.

So that was off topic, but we will not be approaching multiplayer in That Which Sleeps (unless some miracle explosion of wealth falls on our head). The AI is architected in such a way that it would be very difficult to now rewrite it for multiple players. We would, at best, consider a similar game leveraging this engine to then be multiplayer. If we did however, I would lean towards the type of game you described - asymmetric gameplay is fascinating.

[KingDGames]

Hey guys, quick update - we are live and up on Kickstarter and Greenlight. The links are below if you feel inclined to lend us your support.

Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps)
Greenlight (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=316173232)

[Driderman]

Backed for the Heroic (Villain) tier :smallsmile:

[DemonicAngel]

backed for the preorder.. wish i could have given more.

Good luck!

[Aragehaor]

Question in regards to the 'rival old gods' stretch goal, If you reach that stretch goal will the rival old gods be a mandatory feature? - that is, will every game have to have rival old gods in it or will it be possible to play games where your the only old god?


While i do like the idea of having rival old gods i would personally prefer them to be an optional feature, as quite frankly i'm rather certain there will be times where i wouldnt want to have to deal with them, either wanting that specific run to be slightly more relaxed or simply finding the idea of being 'THE' ancient evil awakening to destroy the world instead of 'one of' to be more fun in that specific instance.

[KingDGames]

Question in regards to the 'rival old gods' stretch goal, If you reach that stretch goal will the rival old gods be a mandatory feature? - that is, will every game have to have rival old gods in it or will it be possible to play games where your the only old god?


While i do like the idea of having rival old gods i would personally prefer them to be an optional feature, as quite frankly i'm rather certain there will be times where i wouldnt want to have to deal with them, either wanting that specific run to be slightly more relaxed or simply finding the idea of being 'THE' ancient evil awakening to destroy the world instead of 'one of' to be more fun in that specific instance.

Going to copy this from our Backer's thread (you may actually have asked this) :

This is a good point you bring up, I'll make the change on the main page. Rival Old Ones will appear in THREE total forms, all of which are configurable.

1) Great Old Ones, these are your true peers - you can choose to have a number of them (depending on world size) appear in the world at game start, wakening at the same time as you. They will travel through the same power trajectory as you, with a shorter/longer sleep timer depending on which god they represent. They will also make use of agents, and will undermine both the world and your plans.

2) Those who Remained, these are relics of yours and other ages who remained on the world, and now control powerful Kingdoms of their own. These play out more along the lines of traditional nations but with much greater direction interaction with you and your agents. These MUST be placed in the scenario builder tool, they cannot randomly appear or be set to spawn randomly.

3) The Lesser Evils - these are powerful creatures that don't quite reach the same tier as you and your ilk, but they aspire to. These entities have a unique AI that prioritizes their quest for power both in mortal plane and beyond. Some will work with you and stay loyal to claim a place by your side, others will seek to siphon off your power and usurp your place in the world. You can determine how frequent these creatures will spawn in your game.

Let me know if you have any other questions!

[Aragehaor]

I did, actually. Thank you for your reply though!

I'll probably personally be asking any further questions on the Kickstarter page itself since i imagine that'd be a great deal simpler in the long run.

Looking forward to your game, i honestly cant wait to get my hands on it!

(as a side note i really hope this Kickstarter keeps going this strong and we reach all the stretch goals because good god man, their all absolutely fantastic.)