I need some help with a dagger thrower build

[Shadurak]

Title says it all, really. New campaign, starting at lvl 4. Custom world, No Dragon Mag., no Incarnum, no web-based stuff.
CN Silverbrow Human
1. Ninja 1 - Point Blank Shot, Martial Study(Steely Strike) [Iron Heart Maneuver] Sudden Strike +1d6
2. Ninja 2
3. Ninja 3 - Martial Stance(Punishing Stance) [Iron Heart Stance] SS +2d6
4. Ninja 4
5. Ninja 5 - SS +3d6
6. Bloodstorm Blade 1 - Weapon Finesse
...
8. Bloodstorm Blade 3 - Precise Shot
9. Bloodstorm Blade 4 - Weapon Focus(dagger)
10. Bloodstorm Blade 5
11. Swordsage (due to the way initiator lvl works, I can pick up to lvl 3 maneuvers/stance)
Stance - Assassin's Stance(+2d6 sneak attack)
Maneuvers - Shadow Garrote (Ranged Touch, 5d6 dmg, Fort save or flat-footed)
Cloak of Deception (invis as greater invisibility)
Shadow Jaunt (teleport up to 50 ft.)
Fire Riposte (Melee, On being hit counterattack, If succesful +4d6 dmg)
Zephyr Dance (On being hit +4 dodge AC before dmg is rolled)
Fan the Flames (Ranged Touch, 6d6 fire dmg)
12. Master Thrower(Sneaky Shot trick), Shadowblade(+Dex on dmg rolls when in shadow hand stance instead of +Str)

All's well and good up until this point. Ninja for Ghost Step, BB for mass sneak attacks, Shadowsage for delicious ToB cheese. Sadly, I'm having trouble deciding where to go from here. Multiple prestige classes that are within reach seem appealing - Assassin and Invisible Blade(CWar) in particular.

Yeah...basically, I need some advice on the fundamentals of this build - should I focus on increasing sneak attack damage? Or should I fill my remaining lvls with Master Thrower/BB for MOAR THROW? Which feats are feasible, which ones in the current build can be replaced? Any items that are particularly well suited for this character?

Any help will be greatly appreciated. :smallsmile:

[Mystia]

First and foremost, you absolutely should take the Palm Throw trick from Master Thrower, which is without doubt the capstone of the class. Effectively, it means that with every attack you'll be throwing two daggers instead of one. So if you want to stick with the Sneaky Throw trick, you can always grab another 2 levels in the PrC.
If you want to deal better damage, you can always dip Barbarian with the ACF for Pounce, since you can charge with thrown attacks thanks to Bloodstorm Blade. The advantage of this is that you can then enchant your daggers with Valorous for maximum efficiency.
You probably want to go something with full BAB if possible for the rest of the build, and you it would be nice to take the TWF feats, both to reduce the penalties and to get extra attacks. Since daggers do little damage, the way to go for Dagger Throwing builds is to get as many attacks as possible (though I may be biased since I'm a fan of Izayoi Sakuya and have a build inspired on her :smalltongue:).
Personally, I'd try to go with something with full Initiating and full BAB, which means some PrC from the ToB, or Warblade.

[AvatarVecna]

I built a Str-based thrower for a Zinc Saucier competition, and a Dex-based thrower for a pbp game, both fairly recently. Let it suffice to say that I did quite a bit of research for both of these characters, and that what I have to say about them comes from a position of great knowledge.

Bloodstorm Blade

Firstly, it should be noted that among the PrCs presented in ToB, Bloodstorm Blade is the only one that doesn't advance your Initiator lvl, your maneuvers/stances known, or your maneuvers readied. As maneuvers are necessary to enter the PrC, any character entering it, in order to be optimized, should take as few levels as are necessary for their character concept.

The bare minimum (and for most characters, the absolute maximum) is 4 levels; at lvl 4, you get Lightning Ricochet, which allows you to full attack with a single thrown weapon. This is great because now you don't need to rob a magic knife shop to be prepared for combat. With WBL as it is, this should be reached as early as possible to avoid any problems.

The only other notable point about the Bloodstorm Blade is an extremely nitpicky detail; DMs with a tendency to stick to RAW (unless it causes the DM to have issues) might have a problem with certain rules interacting for this build, as explained in the spoiler below. If your DM is a reasonable person who would treat, feel free to skip this part.

The RAW of Bloodstorm Blade


Thunderous Throw (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, you build up incredible tension as you ready yourself to throw your weapon, which becomes visible around you like heat waves. When you release your weapon, that power rushes out with your weapon. As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your melee attack bonus, including Strength bonus, feats, and so forth, to determine your attack bonus for each attack as normal, but you apply the standard modifiers for range penalties. Attacking into melee, through cover, and so forth incurs the standard penalties. In addition, you can apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage if you wield the thrown weapon with two hands, and you can use Power Attack with your thrown weapon attacks (adding two times the number subtracted from attack rolls as a bonus on damage rolls when throwing a twohanded weapon).


The text is rather confusing, but the ultimate result, if you're devoted to RAW, is that a Bloodstorm Blade 2 can spend a swift action to make it so that all ranged attacks they make during their turn use their melee attack rolls. What it does not do is make thrown weapons melee attacks; they're still ranged attacks, but they're using melee attack rolls. This means that (should it come up) you can't threaten beyond your normal melee reach, you can't make AoOs, and you can't use it on a charge.

Interestingly, while you can't use this ability to make the attack at the end of a charge, you can use it on the other attacks in a pounce. Charge specifies a melee attack at the end of your movement, while pounce makes it a full attack; pounce doesn't overwrite the charge rules, so the melee attack is still necessary, but there's nothing preventing you from making ranged attacks for the rest of the full attack pounce gives you.

Another interesting RAW thing I found while researching this is that thrown weapons, for the most part, are actually melee weapons.


Melee and Ranged Weapons
Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.


Thus, any thrown weapon that can be used in melee is a melee weapon, while any thrown weapon that can't is a ranged weapon. Among other things, this limits the enchantments that can be applied to such weapons, as well as some feats (Melee/Ranged Weapon Mastery, for instance).


Once again, everything in that spoiler is for those devoted to RAW; if your DM just hand waves it, that's cool.

Master Thrower

Quick Draw is necessary for Master Throwers that don't have Lightning Ricochet, and useful for the ones that do.

Snatch Arrows is...okay. It's better to have than not have, I guess. If you're feat-starved, either retrain or DCS this into something useful.

Now for the important part: the Thrown Weapon Tricks.

Deadeye Shot is useful for crit-fishers; a properly optimized Master Thrower fills the air with weapons, and can get a lot of attacks, so crit-fishing can be worthwhile.

Defensive Throw can be good if you find yourself in melee a lot. One the one hand, WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN MELEE RANGE?! On the other hand, the DC is ridiculously easy to make; a single custom +30 competence item can cover you under just about any circumstances. Personally, I'd skip this one, but it can be useful, given the short range of thrown weapons.

Doubletoss is a trap. If you're not full attacking, you're wasting your turn.

Palm Throw is perfect. Use tiny thrown weapons to get double the normal number of attacks. This what Doubletoss wants to be, but could never be.

Sneaky Shot is a trap. There's a dozen ways to get full attacks with SA from ranged; they're all difficult, but that's still better than spending your turn getting one attack with SA. Once again, you can fill the air with weapons as a full attack; don't limit yourself to one attack.

Trip Shot is decent at what it's trying to do; the problem is, what it's trying to do isn't worth it. A Master Thrower can be a DPR machine; what are you doing wasting your time tripping people?

Two With One Blow is another trick that's better than Doubletoss in every way. This allows for some battlefield control, especially if combined with some sort of combat maneuver.

Weak Spot is the true capstone of the Master Thrower, and with good reason. Do I even need to explain why giving up Str damage for targeting Touch AC is king? The only caveat is that it only applies to targets bigger than you; either have as small a race as possible, or use polymorph shenanigans to get to fine.

My suggestions

Warblade 3 gets some maneuvers, full BAB, d12 HD, good Fort, Int to Reflex, Int to crit confirm, and Weapon Aptitude.

Invisible Blade 5 gets free action feint 1/round, and you can take 10 on the Bluff check. Keep in mind that this applies to the next melee attack you make against the target, and no other attacks, but I'm sure you can find a way for SA to make the target FF; that said, if your DM is a RAW devotee, this doesn't work for thrown weapons, but still.



Hope this has been helpful.