Are Bloodlines ever useful?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Note this in terms of UA Bloodlines, not homebrewed.

Is there ever a time a bloodline can be seen as useful and/or powerful?
Or is it always something that gimps your character?

[Eldan]

From what I know, they are mostly used in theoretical builds because of the clause that they advance the abilities of other classes, since apparently that's a way to advance the abilities of prestige classes when you have already taken all the levels of that class.

[Segev]

If you have multiple classes with calculations based on the levels in said classes, or a class with such a calculation which you want to progress beyond the normal cap of the class, bloodline levels will count for ALL such classes.

As examples, the Hellfire Warlock's 2d6/level of hellfire blast is explicitly calculated based on his class level, and the Green Star Adept adds his class level to his CL in an arcane class. This would continue to stack with the +1 CL for the class itself.

[Gwazi Magnum]

From what I know, they are mostly used in theoretical builds because of the clause that they advance the abilities of other classes, since apparently that's a way to advance the abilities of prestige classes when you have already taken all the levels of that class.

You mean those that depend on strictly the Prestige Class level?

[Gwazi Magnum]

If you have multiple classes with calculations based on the levels in said classes, or a class with such a calculation which you want to progress beyond the normal cap of the class, bloodline levels will count for ALL such classes.

As examples, the Hellfire Warlock's 2d6/level of hellfire blast is explicitly calculated based on his class level, and the Green Star Adept adds his class level to his CL in an arcane class. This would continue to stack with the +1 CL for the class itself.

Ah I see, so essentially bloodlines only work if I can find a prestige class like that?

Are there any interesting and/or good Prestige classes like that I can be pointed towards?

[sleepyphoenixx]

It works nicely with the Cannith Wand Adept (who gets +1 to DC and CL of his wands per class level).

[snailgosh]

It also works well with the Fiend of Possession, especially as a cohort. Being able to grant +9 worth of enchantments is nifty.

[Segev]

The classic "Warlock/Binder/Hellfire Warlock" would advance Binder level (important for some vestiges' features) and your Hellfire Blast damage for the 3 levels of your major bloodline. If you have Green Star Adept thrown in, the Improved Caster Level would double-stack your Warlock CL, if you have Invocations that care about that.

Anything that cares only about "Arcane Caster Level" as a prereq that also needs some other class-level-counter advancement would also qualify.

Interestingly, the bloodline levels would also count as full initiator levels for all Martial Adept classes you have. A Warblade 2/Swordsage 2/Bloodline 2 would have initiator levels of 5 in both Swordsage and Warblade. (4 from the classes themselves and bloodlines, and 1 from the half-level that each of the off-classes counted as.)

[Vhaidara]

From what I've heard, they're either nearly useless (if not abused), or absolutely broken (borderline TO) when abused.

[Red Fel]

Part of it is also how you read Bloodline "levels" to operate. The language is a bit confusing, so some tables have different interpretations.

If, for example, you read a Bloodline level as simply imposing an xp "tax" that must be paid before reaching an actual level, they are awesome. The only down side is slowing your xp progression.

If, on the other hand, a bloodline level takes the place of an actual class level, their utility drops dramatically, for much the same reason that taking an LA without buyoff hurts - apart from advancing certain class features, Bloodlines don't generally give you a lot more than taking an actual level in an actual class. Yes, it's nice if you want to use it to advance multiple classes at once, or advancing a PrC beyond its printed levels. But if you're using a single class, or your PrC doesn't have level-based features, there is no advantage gained by a Bloodline that isn't gained by simply taking a level in the class you were otherwise taking.

Take, for example, the Major Gold Dragon Bloodline. It gives you a total of:+2 to Sense Motive, Heal, Swim, and Jump checks Alertness and Power Attack Resistance and then Immunity to Fire +3 natural armor Water Breathing and a Breath Weapon +6 on social rolls with Gold Dragons +1 Str, Con, and IntIn short, you get +1 to three ability scores, two free feats, a bunch of skill boosts, a very minor armor bonus, the ability to operate underwater, and a late-game breath weapon. A lot of that stuff is highly circumstantial, and much of it comes too late to be of any real use. And if you'd taken actual class levels instead, you could have gained new spells per day, or fighter bonus feats, or actual class features. You would also have gained BAB and saves.

Can Bloodlines be useful? Yes. But it takes a certain degree of advance planning of the entire build to make it worthwhile.

[Bronk]

Is there ever a time a bloodline can be seen as useful and/or powerful?
Or is it always something that gimps your character?

The only downside is that your leveling gets slowed down a bit.

The upside, aside from the benefits listed on the tables for the various bloodlines, is that you gain some of the benefits of a level without actually gaining a regular level. It is tracked separately, but gives adds its level to all of your classes for abilities based on your level. Caster level is specifically mentioned, for example, others have mentioned interactions with prestige classes, and I'd add in feats like 'craven'. By the time you're level 20, you might have a base 23 caster level or deal 23 extra damage on a sneak attack.

The only stipulation for taking the bloodline levels (aside from the DM allowing the optional rule) is that you have to take them before a certain level. If you really wanted to, you could minimize the XP spent by taking them all before level 2, for 1000XP each. Your level 1 character would have all his abilities working as if they were level 4, where appropriate.

Some people on other threads have also noticed that it doesn't say anywhere that you're limited to only one bloodline at a time. That might scare off a DM from allowing these optional rules though, unless you were playing a solo game, as well as making family reunions a little too interesting!

[Segev]

Bronk, you need to be careful, here. Nowhere does it say that bloodline levels don't count as character levels for purposes of where you sit on the exp chart. So a Wizard 2/Bloodline 1 is a third level character, not a 2nd level character who spent 3000 exp on a bloodline. He won't become a wizard 3/bloodline 1 after 3000 exp by leveling up to third character level; he'll become a wizard 3/bloodline 1 after 4000 exp by leveling up to fourth character level.

Unless you can point to something I'm missing in reading Bloodline Level rules which state that they're not counted as part of your character level? If so, you're right, and they're pure awesome.

Edit: So this example is wrong, unless I'm missing something

If you really wanted to, you could minimize the XP spent by taking them all before level 2, for 1000XP each. Your level 1 character would have all his abilities working as if they were level 4, where appropriate.
If you followed this advice, you'd spend 1000 exp going from level 1 to 2 and getting your first bloodline level. As a level 2 PC, you now need 2000 exp to get your second bloodline level, and 3000 beyond that to get your 3rd bloodline level.

You're now a fourth level character with only one hit die and the skill ranks of a level one character.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Unless you can point to something I'm missing in reading Bloodline Level rules which state that they're not counted as part of your character level? If so, you're right, and they're pure awesome.



Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

That's the only mention of bloodline levels and how they relate to ECL. It could be clearer, but the interpretation that bloodline levels don't increase ECL (and function more like the transformation into a necropolitan) is certainly a valid one.

[Xerlith]

Unless you can point to something I'm missing in reading Bloodline Level rules which state that they're not counted as part of your character level? If so, you're right, and they're pure awesome.

Edit: So this example is wrong, unless I'm missing something

If you followed this advice, you'd spend 1000 exp going from level 1 to 2 and getting your first bloodline level. As a level 2 PC, you now need 2000 exp to get your second bloodline level, and 3000 beyond that to get your 3rd bloodline level.

You're now a fourth level character with only one hit die and the skill ranks of a level one character.


By reading of this. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm)

The rules concerning them are actually pretty unclear. The general consensus is that they behave like bought-off template LAs, though.



Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

EDIT: Swordsage'd.

[Sith_Happens]

Unless you can point to something I'm missing in reading Bloodline Level rules which state that they're not counted as part of your character level? If so, you're right, and they're pure awesome.

Last sentence of the first paragraph under "Bloodline Levels:" they in fact do not count as character levels.

The rules are silent, however, as to whether they count as effective character levels, which are what determine your place on the XP chart.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Darrin]

I am puzzled what the design goal for bloodlines were (and also double-puzzled that they made it into print without someone asking, "What exactly are these for? What do they do?"). My best guess:

The bloodline designer wanted to add more flavor + crunch to sorcerers. You can see there were some early attempts to redesign the magic system from a Vancian "I'm smart, I spent years specializing on this, I can cast spells because I have dedicated my life to the study of magic" system to a more innate system: "I can cast magic because I was born that way, it's in my blood!" So rather than rip out the Vancian stuff wholesale, the design team caved and bifurcated the magic-user: we have the "Old guy studies books" Wizard and "Young guy has an innate gift of magic in his blood" Sorcerer. Because the design team didn't trust the new spontaneous casting mechanics, they deliberately crippled it compared to the wizard: Sorcerers get spells later, they get no bonus feats, and they get penalized for using metamagic (this last one is the most puzzling, but I think the design team didn't really understand what they were trying to do with Metamagic to begin with, so they arbitrarily penalized everyone trying to use it).

Still, the designers wanted to emphasize the whole "magical bloodline" thing for sorcerers, so the first thing they tried was templates, such as Half-Dragon and Draconic. Level Adjustment was introduced to try and balance things out, but again, the designers don't understand their own rules, and somehow completely missed that Level Adjustment just absolutely *murders* spellcasters by slowing down their spellcasting progression.

So they try again with "Ancestry/Heritage" feats. But then they run head-first into a brick wall they built themselves: Sorcerers don't get bonus feats. If they waste what few feat slots they do get on them, then the wizards are still kicking them in the nads: "Oh look, we had enough feats to get both Heritage and Metamagic feats! Howzabout ya like them apples!"

It looks like Boodline Levels were an attempt to reverse how Level Adjustment worked: instead of getting all the benefits up front and you then pay off the XP down the road with either slower leveling or LA Buyoff, you pay the XP up front and then get the benefits spread out gradually over 20 levels. Good idea. Bad execution. And then they really *bleep* the pooch with a complete and utter failure to explain how they actually work.

Even with a liberal interpretation to how they work, it still looks like a poor choice for Sorcerers. You can see there was a design goal where they didn't want to hurt spellcasting so they made sure the Bloodline levels count towards caster levels, but still extended the Big Middle Finger by not allowing them to count towards new spell levels/spells known. Yet again, this causes the Sorcerer to fall behind the Wizard. Not only are they starting off one spell level behind, but by spending XP on Bloodline Levels, they are still not leveling up as fast as the Wizards. Which was part of the problem to begin with. The designers just need to be honest about the problem they are trying to fix: the 3.0 Sorcerer was underpowered, the 3.5 update didn't fix this, and some of them don't have the guts to ditch Vancian casting and move towards a more flexible spellcasting system.

The most useful applications we get from Bloodline Levels are because the designers didn't properly anticipate the implications of "counts towards abilities that are calculated with class levels", and here is where we get the "abuse": advancing Hellfire Warlock, War Weaver, Initiator Levels, etc.

It's a pity, really, because compared to Level Adjustment/LA buyoff or Heritage feats, the core idea is a more balanced and elegant way to handle the "Yeah, my great grandmother totally boinked a {blah}" magical ancestry idea. Unfortunately, the rules got shoved out the door only half-baked.

[Segev]

I was, in fact, missing that clause about not counting as normal levels. I can see how that would be read as "costs exp like you're gaining a level without actually increasing your level."

This does make bloodlines pretty powerful; on a level 20 build with any "spare" exp lying around, you get nothing but perks, and you might have as many as 3 extra caster levels and other "effective levels" in multiple classes.


Fatespinner, for the record, is another good one, as it gets more Spin from this.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Since you get more XP when you're a level behind you really lose nothing by using a Bloodline.

[Necroticplague]

Try stacking up "[class] levels stacks with [other class] for purposes of [ability]". Since those are two seperate classes, you can double-dip the +class level benefits of bloodlines.

[bekeleven]

If your campaign starts at level 29, you can begin as a level 21 (1k XP from 22) character with all of the bloodlines at max strength. This gives you a total of 41 natural armor, +76 stat mods, 59 feats (but only 17 unique feats, and overlapping feats are explicitly any feat you want), +176 in untyped modifiers to various skills, 34 daily SLAs, and a host of other benefits. And within a couple of levels you'll catch up to the rest of your party again.

Yes I made a spreadsheet for this.

[Jeff the Green]

I've seen exactly one non-broken (in either direction) use, and that's to make a Theurge of two classes that don't have an appropriate class or feat. Exemplified by Ashardalon Reborn (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3401506).


I am puzzled what the design goal for bloodlines were (and also double-puzzled that they made it into print without someone asking, "What exactly are these for? What do they do?"). My best guess:

The bloodline designer wanted to add more flavor + crunch to sorcerers.

Someone finally got the idea right in Dragon Magazine with the heritage feats there (reprinted in Dragon Compendium), but only being able to draw from core spells was painful.

[Cruiser1]

Is there ever a time a bloodline can be seen as useful and/or powerful?
A non-cheesy but effective use for bloodlines is in lower level campaigns. Take a minor bloodline of your choice, and you effectively get a free skill bonus and feat. You don't have to take the minor bloodline "level" until level 12, so it's something for nothing if the campaign ends before level 12. Also useful in build exercises such as "design a powerful 8th level character". You can actually get an arbitrary feat of your choice: For example, take Minor Bloodline: Fey, then visit the Otyugh Hole magical location to get Iron Will, then at level 8 when the bloodline grants you Iron Will, you instead get a feat of your choice. :smallsmile:

Edit: If you want cheese, take multiple bloodlines! With Otyugh Hole (Iron Will), a familiar next to you (Alertness), and casting Heroics x4 (Dodge, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, and Point Blank Shot) right before you level up, you can take 31 different minor bloodlines for 31 bonus feats at level 8. :smallbiggrin: If you can't design a game breaking level 8-11 character with 31 free feats, you're not trying. :smallwink:

[Jeff the Green]

A non-cheesy but effective use for bloodlines is in lower level campaigns. Take a minor bloodline of your choice, and you effectively get a free skill bonus and feat. You don't have to take the minor bloodline "level" until level 12, so it's something for nothing if the campaign ends before level 12. Also useful in build exercises such as "design a powerful 8th level character". You can actually get an arbitrary feat of your choice: For example, take Minor Bloodline: Fey, then visit the Otyugh Hole magical location to get Iron Will, then at level 8 when the bloodline grants you Iron Will, you instead get a feat of your choice. :smallsmile:

:smallconfused: Does 'something for nothing' not ping on your caseometer?

[Anthrowhale]

Bloodlines grant feats that are often feat taxes in prestige classes.

The L20 Energy immunity that some grant can be handy at high levels.

Bloodlines provide the only Ex breath weapon that I'm aware of. Unfortunately, they appear ineligible for metabreath feats due to not having a recharge time.

[Talionis]

If they fill a class level, which is how I read them, and they can't be bought out with XP like a Level Adjustment, which my play group has never used. Then they are balanced and useful. You take a big hit by loosing a class level, but you have the opportunity to advance multiple class abilities at once and can advance some ability pies beyond what the rules normally contemplate.

I haven't seen this single handedly break a game, but it can be used in conjunction with other things to break a game. I also would be careful of it because while I haven't seen it totally imbalance a game, I think if someone tries hard enough they might so as a DM I would allow it, but monitor it.

That being said Bloodline levels are normally worse than any average class level so it takes foresight to gain an advantage for your character with there use.

If you allow buy off in XP! Then it's basically something for nothing, because characters eventually catch up when behind on XP .

If you allow buy off , it is akin to Gestalt in being a power boost and may put characters at a higher level and change the obstacles you throw at them.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Sorry for the late reply, got occupied in RL.

From what I gather, it seems that unless if you're doing a very specific build with certain classes than bloodlines are not too useful. Unless if you just see it as XP buy off. Pay off 1000XP three times and then continue.

In which case, assuming that's how it works what bloodlines do you find to be the most useful or interesting? Either from a mechanic or flavor perspective? Which ones can you see being the best roleplayed or built on?

Bonus points if you can incorporate into a kind of commoner growing into an adventurer sort of build.

[Bronk]

Well, that's sort of how it works. That's been gone over already though.

I think there are a few flavorful bloodlines, like the fey, the dragons and the giants, but it looks like the titans get 'use oversized weapon (Ex)', quote 'As the titan special ability'.

The titan special ability just says that they can use gargantuan sized weapons with no further elaboration.

By RAW, any sized creature with a major titan bloodline and twelve hit dice can wield a "great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty." That's pretty open ended.

[CIDE]

If your campaign starts at level 29, you can begin as a level 21 (1k XP from 22) character with all of the bloodlines at max strength. This gives you a total of 41 natural armor, +76 stat mods, 59 feats (but only 17 unique feats, and overlapping feats are explicitly any feat you want), +176 in untyped modifiers to various skills, 34 daily SLAs, and a host of other benefits. And within a couple of levels you'll catch up to the rest of your party again.

Yes I made a spreadsheet for this.


Could I get this spreadsheet by chance...?

[Rijan_Sai]

Well, that's sort of how it works. That's been gone over already though.

I think there are a few flavorful bloodlines, like the fey, the dragons and the giants, but it looks like the titans get 'use oversized weapon (Ex)', quote 'As the titan special ability'.

The titan special ability just says that they can use gargantuan sized weapons with no further elaboration.

By RAW, any sized creature with a major titan bloodline and twelve hit dice can wield a "great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty." That's pretty open ended.

Still want to make a Kobold character using this ruling who's hammer is Alchemical Silver...named Maxwell, of course! :smallamused:

...Or, you know, go with the more sane ruling that you can use any weapon sized one catagory larger (i.e. Medium -> Large), figuring that "warhammer" is the Titan's preferred "smash toy."