Brawler: Shield Champion

[UmpteenthDoctor]

How effective is this in combat? How far away can Cap throw this shield. What on Earth or wherever else is a Medium Shield? It says a medium or light shield. Does it imply I can throw a Medium sized shield of any type Heavy or Light? Does it mean I can only throw Medium Heavy and throw any size light?

How can you optimize this to make a character who can actually do some serious damage when armed only with his trusty shield.

[The Random NPC]

How effective is this in combat?

I've been working on a build that has ~+30 to attack, crits ~50% of the time, and averages 300 damage per round.


How far away can Cap throw this shield.

Varies between 200 and 500 feet.


What on Earth or wherever else is a Medium Shield? It says a medium or light shield. Does it imply I can throw a Medium sized shield of any type Heavy or Light? Does it mean I can only throw Medium Heavy and throw any size light?

No idea, I missed that when I read it.


How can you optimize this to make a character who can actually do some serious damage when armed only with his trusty shield.

Take the feat Shield Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-master-combat---final).

[UmpteenthDoctor]

How on Earth did you manage a 200 foot shield throw? And how did you get a +30 to attack? Whats the threat Range to crit 50% of the time, it would have to be 10 how did you manage that?

Is this using the Shield Champion build?

I admit I never focused on the Shield before so I know nothing of how to optimize or even fully build a build focused on it.

One of my players was talking about taking the Brawler for the Cap feel but he has never used shields either so I wanted to be sure it was at leastr decent but I have no idea how to help him with this build.

[The Random NPC]

How on Earth did you manage a 200 foot shield throw? And how did you get a +30 to attack? Whats the threat Range to crit 50% of the time, it would have to be 10 how did you manage that?

Is this using the Shield Champion build?

I admit I never focused on the Shield before so I know nothing of how to optimize or even fully build a build focused on it.

One of my players was talking about taking the Brawler for the Cap feel but he has never used shields either so I wanted to be sure it was at leastr decent but I have no idea how to help him with this build.

A Belt of Mighty Hurling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-of-mighty-hurling) adds 10 to the range increment of a thrown weapon, shields start with a 10 foot range, and Distance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/distance) will double that to 40 feet. Multiply that by 5 range increments to get 200 feet.

That +30 includes BAB, and that Belt of Mighty Hurling allows you to use Str for attack rolls, if you start with a 20 in Str, a +6 Str item will give you a modifier of 8, not to mention the +1-5 from Shield Master (allows you to use the enchantment bonus to AC for attack and damage as well).

With Improved Critical, the threat range of the shield is 19-20. With Pummeling Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-style-combat-style), if any of your attacks crit, they all crit. If I remember my Statistics right, the easiest way to figure that out is to invert the percentage, multiply them, and invert again. You have a 10% chance to crit, so the inverse is a 90% chance to not crit. You get 4 iterative attacks and 3 from Two Weapon Fighting. So calculate 1 - (90% ^ 7), and you end up with 52.17%. If you use Rapid Shot (and you should, as Shield Master gets rid of the penalty) that goes up to 56.95%, and if you're hasted as well, it's 61.26%. If you don't have Improved Critical, the percentages drop to 30.17%, 33.66%, and 36.98%.

The damage comes from using the Shield Champion's 12th level ability to use their unarmed damage in place of the shield, which at 20th level is 2d10. That averages to 11 damage, plus your strength bonus (for my character at 20th level it will be 10). If you pick up Two Handed Thrower (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/two-handed-thrower-combat), you get a bonus to damage equal to 1.5 times your strength bonus, which technically gives you a total of 2.5 strength bonus, but my GM nerfed it to 1.5. For my character, that gives me an average of 26 to damage, plus Weapon Specialization (I ran out of feats, plus I want Point Blank Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/point-blank-master-combat) with my shield to avoid AoO) which ups it to 28. As a ranged build, you'll want Deadly Aim, which adds another 12, and an attack penalty of -6. You ignore the -6 because of Shield Master (see why my previous response was simply use Shield Master?) and that gives us a total of +40 to damage. Multiply that by 8 for a full attack sequence and you have 320 damage. Even if you only hit with half of your attacks, you still average 160 damage.

As a final note, here's a link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agj6gAXrCfTedE1MUDRlSkhJTnY3U1VMemFnQ0JfR 3c&usp=sharing) to my google doc with my build in progress. If you can think up some ideas for the final feats, traits, story, or anything else, I would appreciate it.

EDIT: Also, don't forget that Brawler's Flurry allows you to use 1 shield for all of your attacks, including the ones from Two-weapon Fighting. Second, if you take a feat that requires Two-weapon Fighting, and use Brawler's Flurry to qualify, you can only benefit from those feats while Flurrying.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

How do you get the x5 distance thing?

[The Random NPC]

Ranged weapons have 10 range increments, thrown ranged weapons have 5. The range listed next to the weapons are increments, and you take a -2 for every range increment past the first one. So with a 40 ft range increment, you can throw up to 40 ft with no penalty, 80 ft with a -2, 120 ft with a -4, 160 ft with a -6, and 200 with a -8. Shield Champion reduces that penalty by half, and Shield Master gets rid of it completely. Your full attack should look like, 30, 30, 30, 25, 25, 20, 20, 15 all at a max of 200 ft. You might miss with the last few attacks, but since CR 30 monsters have about 700-800 HP, you'll be able to kill everything in 3 rounds by yourself. Of course, if that's too powerful for your campaign, all you have to do is forgo some of the feats. As an example, if you avoid Deadly Aim, you lose about 100 damage off of your full attack

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Very interesting. I thought you meant 200 ft in the first range increment.

[The Random NPC]

Since Shield Master gets rid of all penalties for shields, you might as well have a single range increment of 200. Seriously, Shield Master is what makes all shield fighting builds viable.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.

So this says while I am wielding another weapon (So only when you are two weapon fighting) so only when he punches or kicks while fighting with his shield (So having Unarmed Strike works, cool)

[The Random NPC]

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.

So this says while I am wielding another weapon (So only when you are two weapon fighting) so only when he punches or kicks while fighting with his shield (So having Unarmed Strike works, cool)

Don't forget, shields are on the weapon table.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I think that is why it says ANOTHER weapon, the shield and then one other.

[The Random NPC]

Yes, shield and then another shield.

EDIT: So I was bored, and did some math vs AC 45 which is one of the highest ACs printed (Ravener (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/ravener/ravener-red-wyrm) in case you're curious). My character at 20th level has a 65% chance to hit with 3 of his attacks, 40% with 2, 15% with 2, and 5% with his last. Applying that to the average damage will give us the actual expected average damage, which is 27.95 for my first 3, 17.2 for my next 2, 6.45 for the next 2, and 2.15 for the last. Adding it all up gives us 133.3 damage per round, the monster has 337 HP, so it takes us just over 2.5 rounds to kill. If I crit, I gain an extra attack at highest BAB due to Bashing Finish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bashing-finish-combat) (houserule, critical feats only proc once at highest BAB), so I gain another 27.95 damage, which all gets multiplied by 2, giving me 322.5 damage on average.

EDIT 2: Realizing I didn't explain the houserule very well... With Pummeling Style, if any attack crits, they all crit. Bashing Finish grants you extra attacks, at the same attack bonus as the crit. Since the two have a great synergy of possibly generating infinite attacks, my GM ruled that any critical feats will only happen once per pummel, and if they require an attack roll, it is done at your highest BAB.

[animewatcha]

Can you PM that build as well as an alternative without pummeling style?

[The Random NPC]

Can you PM that build as well as an alternative without pummeling style?

That google doc a few posts up is my character, but sure.

[MightyPirate]

Shield Slam sadly requires two weapon fighting. It's well worth the feat tax but you'll have to work that in somewhere for your build. You'll need it for the prized Shield Master as well so it'll need to get in there somehow. Alternatively a six level dip in ranger can get you both while skipping bothersome prerequisites. This'll get you deadly aim much faster without penalty but at the cost of needing to find a way to get full attacks with your weapon until level 11 when returning shield kicks in. The good news is you'll be able to skip precise shot and improved precise shot much earlier as well and maybe make room for power attack so you won't really need Point Blank Master.

I might also switch out Point Blank Master for Snap Shot as you get it so late. If they're in your grill you can just do a normal flurry without ranged attacks to activate Shield Slam and then continue with ranged attacks once bull rushing has got you free from being threatened. Improved Snap Shot plays real nicely with this build, Greater Snap Shot is a decent if unnecessary bonus. Obviously you also want combat reflexes if you go that route you probably need combat reflexes and perhaps some way to boost that lacking dexterity a bit if only for the extra attacks.

Pummel Charge could be useful to squeeze in some movement before a full attack. This is only relevant if you want to get Improved Snap Shot and threaten a different area than where you started the fight, otherwise that crazy range will get the job done fine and Point Blank Master becomes the superior option. Note that you'll also be able to draw your weapon as a part of this charge so quick draw is only relevant after Returning Shield if someone catches your shield or if it gets stuck for some other reason.

The Pummeling Style and Brawler's Flurry is just begging for a critical feat while you're at it. Pick up Critical Focus and Critical Versatility and in addition to decent damage you're suddenly ruining someone's day about once per round. Without the one critical feat per pummel house rule you will ruin everyone's day every round but then there's no reason to be greedy.

Don't forget Improved Bullrush and Greater Bullrush (but only if your DM rules that these apply with Shield Slam.) This is a lot of feats all said and done but you can cut out some of the slack like shield focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus and the like. They're an okay numerical boost but feats that give you options you never had before are almost universally a better choice. The Shield Bearer Trait mixed with a penalty-less deadly aim is going to be more than sufficient I think.

That doesn't even consider the nice gold savings Shield Master gets you on a maxed out shield that also happens to count as a weapon enchantment bonus. Put that saved gold to enchantment effects on those spikes. Elemental Bursts and Keen play particularly nicely with Pummeling style.

Edit: Heh, just looked up the faq for Shield Master and it clarifies that the negated penalty is only for two weapon fighting penalties on shield bashes. Oddly the FAQ references Shield Mastery whereas the feat is called Shield Master but I think that meaning was pretty clear even if the wording is profoundly muddled. This just means you'll need to pick up precise shot and it's improved friend whether you dip ranger or not and you'll have to eat rapid shot and deadly aim penalties just like all the other kids.

[Kudaku]

That interpretation that Shield Master ignores "all" attack penalties instead of just the TWF penalties is controversial, to put it mildly. It's currently not clear if Pummeling Style is intended to only work with unarmed strikes (like the blurb states) or if it works with weapons as well.

IE two of the lynchpins for this build can fall apart if your GM interprets pummeling style and Shield Master differently from how Random reads it, so I'd make sure to go through it with him to make sure he's OK with it.

Edit: Oh, they released a FAQ for Shield Master? Could you provide a link? I couldn't find anything on Paizo.com.

[MightyPirate]

Curiously I can't seem to find it either, only this reference to it on d20pfsrd.com (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Shield-Mastery)

[The Random NPC]

So, to reply in reverse order, the errata is a large blow, but not a mortal one. you end up losing 8 attack, so against AC 45, your expected damage drops to 43 a round. If you crit, you'll do 107.5.

Pummeling Style isn't actually needed for this build, it's just really nice. If you or your GM decides against Pummeling Style, simply use Clustered Shots instead.

Shield Slam does indeed require Two Weapon Fighting, but Brawler's Flurry grants you that. I may be confusing house rules with actual rules, but I seem to remember that you can get feats that require Two Weapon Fighting with Flurries, but you will be unable to use them with anything other than Flurries.

Many of my feats were chosen because I couldn't think of a better feat to take, so I'll take your advice into consideration. It may end up that I will dislike your suggested playstyle, but thank you for helping.

Finally, Shield Focus is simply there to get Greater Shield Focus as a bonus feat. If it turns out I run out of feats, I'll drop it, but I'm loath to lose out on free feats. Who knows, maybe they'll bring back the Chaos Shuffle.

[grarrrg]

Curiously I can't seem to find it either, only this reference to it on d20pfsrd.com (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq#TOC-Shield-Mastery)

That's because it isn't an "Official" FAQ.
Read the intro at the top of that page:

This is an unofficial list of frequently asked rule questions about the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.

Responses that start with (a name in blue) are a direct quote from a Paizo representative (named in blue). Most quotes will also include a [Source] link to the original post or location for the quote. If no name is provided then we have done our best to show the answer either found directly within the existing rules with a link to the PRD (Pathfinder Reference Document) or the information was derived from a group consensus of posters on the rules forum at paizo.com.

Responses that start with (Official FAQ) are official responses copied from a Paizo FAQ or errata entry.

The Shield Master response is a "blue name", so while a Designer said it, it was most likely on a Message Board, or some such.
It does _not_ carry the full weight of the Actual FAQ.

[MightyPirate]

Fair enough, I understand that a lot of the designer posts are viewed as somewhat less credible in some very bad ways. I think this particular case is a good call but The Random NPC seems to have a good DM who makes reasonable house rules so the point is probably moot. I would point out however the if he does rule against the unofficial faq you definitely want to consider swapping out shield focus or greater shield focus for combat expertise which gets a hell of a lot more interesting when the penalties can be ignored.

Far as I know the flurry qualifying for feats with two-weapon fighting as a prereq. would indeed be a houserule. I can't find anything saying one way or another but again it's the kind of house rule I can get behind.

Is there some reason you need a chaos shuffle when brawlers can already switch out bonus combat feats like a sorcerer swapping out spells known? It's a little slow and you only get so many swaps but you didn't seem to be using them as a part of your build. I'd argue that you want power attack at first level and then use your switch at level 5 to trade out for point blank in time to qualify for precise shot. It would certainly make those early levels before the belt of might hurling becomes affordable a lot less painful.

I'm looking between Pummeling Style and Bashing Finish and I'm not sure I get how this is Pathfinder's version of Lightning Maces. You get a lot of extra bang if you confirm the crit but only if the attacks would have hit anyway right? And the free attacks off of this aren't considered part of a pummel so they only have a 5%, maybe 10% chance of generating their own Bashing finish (lower if they threaten but don't confirm). It's a pretty good combo with or without the one critical feat per pummel house rule but how could you possibly approach infinite attacks? I'm seeing to potential for 20 attacks, probably closer to 10 on something that's got a decent ac. It'll leave the monk in the dust even with Medusa's Wrath and Ki points but assuming you can't ignore deadly aim penalties it's probably not too busted.

[The Random NPC]

Fair enough, I understand that a lot of the designer posts are viewed as somewhat less credible in some very bad ways. I think this particular case is a good call but The Random NPC seems to have a good DM who makes reasonable house rules so the point is probably moot. I would point out however the if he does rule against the unofficial faq you definitely want to consider swapping out shield focus or greater shield focus for combat expertise which gets a hell of a lot more interesting when the penalties can be ignored.

That's a really good idea, Combat Expertise will more than make up for the loss of Greater Shield Focus. Wish I had thought of it. Also, I can't swap out Greater Shield Focus, it's a bonus I get if I have Shield Focus.


Far as I know the flurry qualifying for feats with two-weapon fighting as a prereq. would indeed be a houserule. I can't find anything saying one way or another but again it's the kind of house rule I can get behind.

I'll have to discuss this with my GM then, I could have sworn it was a real rule... maybe it was in 3.5.


Is there some reason you need a chaos shuffle when brawlers can already switch out bonus combat feats like a sorcerer swapping out spells known? It's a little slow and you only get so many swaps but you didn't seem to be using them as a part of your build.

Nah, that was mostly a joke.


I'd argue that you want power attack at first level and then use your switch at level 5 to trade out for point blank in time to qualify for precise shot. It would certainly make those early levels before the belt of might hurling becomes affordable a lot less painful.

I was planning on doing that, I'm just using my feat plan to inform my GM what my character will be capable of when all is said and done. Still it's good advice for those of you that can't see my thoughts. :smalltongue:


I'm looking between Pummeling Style and Bashing Finish and I'm not sure I get how this is Pathfinder's version of Lightning Maces. You get a lot of extra bang if you confirm the crit but only if the attacks would have hit anyway right? And the free attacks off of this aren't considered part of a pummel so they only have a 5%, maybe 10% chance of generating their own Bashing finish (lower if they threaten but don't confirm). It's a pretty good combo with or without the one critical feat per pummel house rule but how could you possibly approach infinite attacks? I'm seeing to potential for 20 attacks, probably closer to 10 on something that's got a decent ac. It'll leave the monk in the dust even with Medusa's Wrath and Ki points but assuming you can't ignore deadly aim penalties it's probably not too busted.

I had thought that the extra shield bash would get added to the pummel, and then be counted as a crit therefore generating another bash. If that isn't the case, there isn't really a need to limit crit feats during a pummel, but I'm still okay with the houserule.

[The Random NPC]

Update! In this thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qdj7?Brawler-Discussion), Jason Bulmahan states that a Brawler can take feats using Brawler's Flurry, but they can only use those feats while Flurrying.

[grarrrg]

Update! In this thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qdj7?Brawler-Discussion), Jason Bulmahan states that a Brawler can take feats using Brawler's Flurry, but they can only use those feats while Flurrying.

I'd take that thread with a grain of salt, seeing as how it's nearly a year old, putting it very much in the "beta" phase of the ACG.
While most of his "plan on changing" actually made it to the final version, the "TWF/Flurry feat" thing did NOT make the final version.
Another "possible change" that did NOT make the final version is the clarification to "Martial Maneuvers", which given the context seems to refer to the Bonus Combat Feats. They did NOT extrapolate on "feat must improved defense" to the degree indicated in the thread.


Do note that a Monk effectively has TWFlurry, and doesn't get to snag feats based on it.

[Da'Shain]

Do note that a Monk effectively has TWFlurry, and doesn't get to snag feats based on it.The difference is that, at least on the d20pfsrd, Monk's flurry is described as working "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat", whereas the Brawler's flurry is described as "a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability."

The language is such that the Brawler clearly has Two-Weapon Fighting, while making her full attack. The reason it's rather problematic to rule that she doesn't have it at other times is that a full attack is the only place the Two-Weapon Fighting feat ever makes a difference in play; thus, the Brawler is treated as having it in every game situation another character with the feat would be. Treating it differently for prereqs at that point seems, well, silly.

If it was intended not to have the feat, then the language "a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat" should not have been used. Until that language is changed, I have a hard time supporting any interpretation that rules they'd have to take the feat again for no benefit other than qualifying for prereqs.

[grarrrg]

The language is such that the Brawler clearly has Two-Weapon Fighting, while making her full attack.

I agree that it's weird/stupid wording (in the ACG? never!).
I'm honestly on the fence about how I think it should work, or even was intended to work.
Much of the Brawler is obviously a copy/paste from Monk stuff, and there was a few months where one of the designers flat-out stated that "Flurry is the same as TWF", and stuff and junk and things.

My main issue is dredging up a year old post, from when the class was obviously still being tested, and using it to support a given side.
All that post shows is that -one- of the designers thought that maybe it should work that way, at that time.
Conceivably they play tested and reviewed feedback and decided not to carry through on some things.
Did they drop it intentionally? Did they drop it accidentally (ACG poor quality control? never!). Who knows!

I will most definitely agree that "At 11th level, a shield champion gains Shield Master as a bonus feat. She must meet all prerequisites before selecting that feat." and the handful of other "(not quite) Bonus feats" is complete and utter horse pucky. What other class gets such specific bonus feats that they must still meet each and every requirement before they can 'actually' get the bonus feat?
A better design would be either just outright getting the feat (freakin Rangers can take it at freakin level 6!), or "You gain Shield Master or one of it's prerequisite feats as a bonus feat, must still meet the prereqs..."

[benkalas]

With Pummeling Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-style-combat-style), if any of your attacks crit, they all crit.
It doesn't work with Shield but only with unarmed strike
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gw#v5748eaic9sfs

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I'm pretty sure there is a method to have that work with close weapons.

[The Random NPC]

It doesn't work with Shield but only with unarmed strike
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gw#v5748eaic9sfs


I'm pretty sure there is a method to have that work with close weapons.

Martial Versatility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/martial-versatility-combat-human) grants Humans and Half Humans the ability to use 1 weapon specific combat feat with all weapons in the same weapon group. Shields and Unarmed are both a part of the Close Weapon Group. As a Brawler, you count your levels as both Fighter and Monk. You get 2 feats from being a 5th level Brawler, one bonus feat and one from leveling. Pummeling Style also doesn't do much until 6th level, so you can wait until 7th to pick it up.

[HurinSmite]

Martial Versatility grants Humans and Half Humans the ability to use 1 weapon specific combat feat with all weapons in the same weapon group. Shields and Unarmed are both a part of the Close Weapon Group. As a Brawler, you count your levels as both Fighter and Monk. You get 2 feats from being a 5th level Brawler, one bonus feat and one from leveling. Pummeling Style also doesn't do much until 6th level, so you can wait until 7th to pick it up.

This might feel like thread necromancy to the previous posters but since I am trying to make a shield champion myself I thought I would comment on this.
Weapon specific combat feat is feats such as Weapon focus or Improved critical. Pummeling style is a weapon "exclusive" feat. So you can't do the pummeling chain with any other weapon than unarmed.

[Necroticplague]

This might feel like thread necromancy to the previous posters but since I am trying to make a shield champion myself I thought I would comment on this.
Weapon specific combat feat is feats such as Weapon focus or Improved critical. Pummeling style is a weapon "exclusive" feat. So you can't do the pummeling chain with any other weapon than unarmed.

Well, and Pummeling Style has been errated to work vastly differently now, so the very concept falls flat. They're talking about back when it was unarmed Dead Shot, now it's more like unarmed Clustered Shot.

[The Random NPC]

This might feel like thread necromancy to the previous posters but since I am trying to make a shield champion myself I thought I would comment on this.
Weapon specific combat feat is feats such as Weapon focus or Improved critical. Pummeling style is a weapon "exclusive" feat. So you can't do the pummeling chain with any other weapon than unarmed.


Well, and Pummeling Style has been errated to work vastly differently now, so the very concept falls flat. They're talking about back when it was unarmed Dead Shot, now it's more like unarmed Clustered Shot.

Also you can use Martial Versatility to expand Pummeling Style to the Close Weapon Group, though I believe there is some contention about that.

[Psyren]

Also you can use Martial Versatility to expand Pummeling Style to the Close Weapon Group, though I believe there is some contention about that.

Not anymore - Pummeling Style was errata'ed to shut down anything that could expand it beyond Unarmed Strike. ("No matter what other abilities you might possess.")

They also removed the "if one crits, they all crit." It's more like Clustered Shots now instead of Falcon Punch, though it's still one of the easier ways for monks to get pounce and thus still good.