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View Full Version : Question to DMs, how do you handle this?



Traab
2014-09-02, 12:06 PM
What happens when you are trying to run some big storyline, and yet somehow the players have managed to, unintentionally, make it impossible to get the information they need? For example, the players are clearing out a dungeon when they interrupt a ritual taking place. They stop it, and one of the npcs is about to give the dying speech with clues as to whats going on and where the players would have to go to stop it. Instead the warrior coup de graces the npc before it can speak. Now they have no way of knowing about the mega evil plot of doom meant to summon, i dunno, the elder god that uses cthulu as a scrub brush, and no way of knowing there is a plot at all. They have no idea this was anything bigger than what it looks like, no in game reason to stick around searching for anything but treasure so you cant have them "just happen" to find a diary with all the information written in it. Do you throw away the binder of storyline you had written up, mentally say, "eff it" and run a sandbox game? Or do you try to force the information on them somehow and risk railroading claims? "When suddenly, another cultist appears and screams out, Nooo! Now the ritual to summon gorgonzola the great will be delayed! I must warn the other 6 locations for the ritual!" "Ok, NOW you guys get to take an action."

cesius
2014-09-02, 12:10 PM
They find the NPC's diary/summoning research journal which has all the relevant information the NPC would have told them. If you want to space it out the information then it could be in code and they can only translate sections of it at a time.

Airk
2014-09-02, 12:16 PM
Stop writing big complicated setpiece stories that hinge on the PCs finding one piece of information? :smallconfused:

C'mon. Use some creativity. Maybe as the PCs are mopping up the fight, some other rightful authority busts in "Swiftly men! We must halt the ritual!" That could be all kinds of interesting.

Otherwise, just give the PCs the opportunity to bump into the plot later. Or, you know, have the plot start to have fallout that affects their lives and let them decide to do something about it or not.

Garimeth
2014-09-02, 12:26 PM
Simple: they DON'T stop the ritual, and now have to deal with the consequences.

But if that doesn't appeal the other suggestions are good also. Also, delay the timeline of the summoning some, and have them find another clue elsewhere, or an anonymous tip, or w/e.

But i say let the chips fall where they will.

Beige
2014-09-02, 12:54 PM
how is finding the diary/journal/ancient spellbook they pulled the ritual from in any way, shape or form less contived or ridiculous than the bloke you killed telling you his plan? I know very few people who would be inclined to help someone who stabbed them, and I certainly wouldn't trust someone who I stabbed then exposited to me to be telling the truth

and the spellbook being there is also pretty likely. you don't want to go the effort of setting up the whole ritual, crushing the priceless diamonds, recruiting a cult, sacrificing 63.4 halflings to **** it all up because you couldn't remeber how many Ws in shubbywubbyginggam.

the best way to deal with it is to have several sources for the information, rather than one singular idea that requires the PCs to be under the DMs control rather than the players. on the treck through the dungeon they could have found mention of the ritual in reports/left over items, or simply overheard conversation. as they get to the room, they could overhear some of the chanting "come form shubywubbyginggam" or some such, which also gives them more a reason to bust in and kill everyone than they had green skin and fangs and pcs didn't

if they missed that, then have them later be attacked by assassins from the church for interupting, or have someone else bust in near the time and thank the Pcs for their help stopping the summoning of shubbywubbyginggam.

and if none of that strikes your fancy and you simply MUST have a single centerpiece of the PCs committing mass-murder on a religeous group for no given reason other than its what PCs do, just remeber NPC die at the speed of plot.

because both the Players and the DM are playing the game, so both need some flexability

sktarq
2014-09-02, 12:57 PM
Well now they don't know. The plot can continue. Where will it likely pop up next and can you get the party there? Perhaps put something distinct to the cult they just "ended" into the tavern rumor mill. React to the players actions. Also will the makers of this plot try and react to the players disruptive actions? will they try to recover holy items from the ruins of the dungeon or the players knapsacks?

Machinekng
2014-09-02, 01:12 PM
For clues and plot hooks, I try to figure out the minimum amount of information the party would need to have a good lead and a solid idea of what to do next. I then double that amount, and then double it again. I'd say the average party is going to miss, ignore or misinterpret about 3/4 of any sort of clues you would give them, so redundancy is useful. After all, if they figure it out earlier, you can always remove extra clues.

For your particular situation, the players could gain information from the ritual set-up (symbols, components, etc...), cultists' possessions, or some sort of written plan or journal. Cryptic letters are a great way of disseminating information in a fairly discrete manner.

Comet
2014-09-02, 01:37 PM
say, "eff it" and run a sandbox game?

This, since I'm running a sandbox game right now. Bring on the apocalypse, if that is what you had planned!

Segev
2014-09-02, 01:59 PM
I do like the idea of having part of the loot they find be a spellbook. The book should have spells centered around gathering and implementing the ritual in question. It should hint that the previous owner had mad plans for using them all together.

There is also the option of having art objects amongst the loot. These objects are sacred relics that spell out the story/prophecy of this god's rise. Give the party spot and Knowledge checks to draw their attention to it. Maybe have it look like a treasure map, as well, so they can have their greed piqued while you tell them the story.

Ultimately, if they're totally disinterested in the plot, they're disinterested in the plot. Send them another hook for another dungeon crawl that happens to be the next one you have planned. Let them heroically bumble their way to saving the world, or hilariously fail to thwart the threat despite being right there each time, depending on what they do.


There is, finally, the somewhat heavy-handed tactic of giving them meta-game OOC information by having "cut scenes." These scenes take place away from the PCs, where they are not present and cannot act, and you just describe the bad guys discussing the next bit of their plot...or agonizing over what just was screwed up. The "vague council of evilness" having a 4-line exchange in the dark is a device used frequently in fiction to indicate the heroes have stumbled on something bigger than they realize. You can use it here, too; if you're lucky, the players will use that metagame information to metagame themselves onto the plot you have planned.

Ettina
2014-09-02, 02:23 PM
Make use of the Three Clue Rule (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule). The NPC could've given them a clue, but they ruined that. So think up two other clues that would lead them in the right direction. If they miss both of them, let them fail to stop the ritual and deal with the consequences. Or at least fail to stop some prelude to the ritual that causes a blatantly obvious sign of doom.

draken50
2014-09-02, 03:03 PM
Yeah, there should always be at least three clues/pieces of information.

Now if your whole story is filled with this kind of choke-point, you're going to want to do a fair amount of re-work to make sure you don't have more issues like this.

I've found that it helps to look at things from the villain's side in more detail.

So questions like:
"How did the cultists find out about the ritual?"
"Why are the cultists participating in the ritual?"
"Where are the cultists from?"
"How would their death/defeat affect others? Do they have family? Friends?"
"Is this a secret cult?"
"How do the cultists communicate with each other?"

These also give questions like "If just the leader knew about the ritual, why are the others involved, what where they told?"

You don't need to have a huge back story for every character involved. It helps to have a couple that the party can get more information on and the like. If their whole story boils down to: "Cultists do ritual, and it's evil, and they did it because they're cultists and that's what cultists do." Then why would anyone expect there to be more to that encounter?

jedipotter
2014-09-02, 05:24 PM
What happens when you are trying to run some big storyline, and yet somehow the players have managed to, unintentionally, make it impossible to get the information they need?

This is a great example of how as a DM, you need to make sure that no matter what happens the players get what they need to advance the game.

First off, drop any idea of ''player agency'' and the idea that you, as the DM, have to let the players do everything they always want to do all the time. Keep in mind that the pay off for following the storyline is a lot of fun, but you need to lead the characters too it. And, yes, sometimes you have to take away the players choice.

So your first option is to keep your ''mouth piece'' alive.

Second, you can have your dying NPC do the ''Ye Old Movie Thing'' where the guy lays dying....but lives just long enough to say something.

Third, it is always best to have at least three ways for the players to find out any piece of information. Then they are sure to get it.

Fourth, ''non-combatants'' are a great way to go. Just put a guy or two in a cage or tied up or wahtever. Clearly not part of the evil. But once the combat is done....he speeks.

Fifth, more fantasy. Add something they can't ''kill'', like an animated talking scroll or skull.

The real trick is to know your players. If you do have slaughter happy players that kill everything in sight, then don't have ''bad guys that want to say stuff after the fight is over''. Have a talking skull, or ghost, or bird or whatever.

Fun Example:

The ''Phone'' Call: you have seen it in tons of movies, and even in 2014 people still have them loud 'click' and play the message answering machines on their home phone lines(and they have home phone lines)

All the bad guys are dead. Players start to loot. Suddenly the crystal skull on the table floats into the air and says "Damons? Damons? Are you there? I'm at 1212 mockingberg lane with the first group and we have started making the altar of doom. It will be finished in three hours. All we need now is the cup of blood. Have your men stolen it from the temple vault yet? Damons? Hello?''

Mr Beer
2014-09-02, 06:02 PM
Lots of good info above, what I would take away from this is to never rely on murderhobos not slaughtering the bad guy before he can provide vital exposition.

sktarq
2014-09-02, 06:15 PM
Lots of good info above, what I would take away from this is to never rely on murderhobos not slaughtering the bad guy before he can provide vital exposition.

I know my characters have a tendency of bringing down an explosion, several tons of nearby material (often water), or other environmental effect on such a scene in order to not have to deal with riskiness of being poked at with sharp objects which upset many a DM's carefully laid plans.

Mr Beer
2014-09-02, 06:30 PM
I know my characters have a tendency of bringing down an explosion, several tons of nearby material (often water), or other environmental effect on such a scene in order to not have to deal with riskiness of being poked at with sharp objects which upset many a DM's carefully laid plans.

Yep, I mean why fight the BBEG and all his minions if you can just blow up his fortress with him in it?

Elurindel
2014-09-02, 06:49 PM
Use a found journal, a hidden spellbook...heck, even the ghost of a slain cultists could work well.

Rainman3769
2014-09-02, 07:22 PM
I fall in to the "Let the World Burn" camp :biggrin:


Player agency is one of the major factors in having fun in RPGs. What better way to let your players truly decide how your world is shaped then let their actions have consequences, good or bad? I say if that cult was literally the only way your PCs could have found out about the End the World Ritual, then they just don't know! I would even go so far as to making sure their characters somehow find out THEY are responsible for the world ending, albiet indirectly, if and when that time comes. Remember, Apolcolypse doesn't always mean "game over" it could mean anything from "This is our fault, we have to make this right" to "Surviving in a broken, battered world"

If its good enough for FF6, it's good enough for you!

Mr Beer
2014-09-02, 07:35 PM
I like player agency but I'd rather usually reserve the 'now the world ends because you messed up' consequences for when they really messed up in an obviously silly or careless way.

nedz
2014-09-02, 07:40 PM
Run a Sandbox
Three Clue Rule is cool, but I prefer to have multiple sources of unreliable (possibly contradictory) information
Don't run BBEG plots, instead have opposing factions with their own agendas

intermedial
2014-09-02, 08:13 PM
They have no idea this was anything bigger than what it looks like, no in game reason to stick around searching for anything but treasure so you cant have them "just happen" to find a diary with all the information written in it.

The reason they don't have any idea this was anything bigger than what it looks like is precisely because they haven't been provided with meaningful information. It falls upon you to make sure that there are plenty of clues regarding any plot-specific information. Clearly, players are almost always going to search for treasure or clues with little prompting. In my experience, they will often over-search just to be sure they aren't missing something important. In the above scenario, there is ample opportunity to add a bunch of treasure and items. You could add scrolls of summoning spells, and spellbooks detailing rituals to communicate with beings beyond our ken, and then improvise a vague missive or map to another adventure site that implies communication with some superior was going on. Bam, plenty of adventure hooks and just enough information to keep the game moving.

Avoid any situation where the PCs can miss out on critical information because of a single die roll.

Averis Vol
2014-09-02, 08:17 PM
What happens when you are trying to run some big storyline, and yet somehow the players have managed to, unintentionally, make it impossible to get the information they need?

Look at each of your players studiously for a moment, then give a slow nod. Say "I need a moment," and slowly get up from the table. Give your players one last look over before leaving the room and entering another. Make sure no one can hear you and laugh maniacally because your players done goofed.

Seriously. They stopped the cult summoning ritual! yay! they're local heroes! Woooooo! They now get to go off and do other hero things! woohoo!

Do some random stuff until the next story sequence hits, them throw them into the middle of the **** storm and watch them scramble to find out what the **** just happened.

Boom, chance two to learn what the story is, just make it so the person/thing with the monologue doesn't get CDG'ed, and if he does, start pounding them with cult sanctioned assassins. When they kill them, because by this point they obviously hate talking to your npcs :smallbiggrin:, leave the drop point note in the dudes bag, saying something along the lines of, "they have interfered with our group too much, kill them and bring their heads (Or better, a mcguffin disguised as loot) to my estate at 212 wharf avenue in townburg to receive your pay."

Once they know someone is hunting them, and that their meddling is plot related, they will probably start paying attention to people and surroundings. Start the plot now.

Thrudd
2014-09-02, 08:25 PM
What happens when you are trying to run some big storyline, and yet somehow the players have managed to, unintentionally, make it impossible to get the information they need? For example, the players are clearing out a dungeon when they interrupt a ritual taking place. They stop it, and one of the npcs is about to give the dying speech with clues as to whats going on and where the players would have to go to stop it. Instead the warrior coup de graces the npc before it can speak. Now they have no way of knowing about the mega evil plot of doom meant to summon, i dunno, the elder god that uses cthulu as a scrub brush, and no way of knowing there is a plot at all. They have no idea this was anything bigger than what it looks like, no in game reason to stick around searching for anything but treasure so you cant have them "just happen" to find a diary with all the information written in it. Do you throw away the binder of storyline you had written up, mentally say, "eff it" and run a sandbox game? Or do you try to force the information on them somehow and risk railroading claims? "When suddenly, another cultist appears and screams out, Nooo! Now the ritual to summon gorgonzola the great will be delayed! I must warn the other 6 locations for the ritual!" "Ok, NOW you guys get to take an action."

You were already planning on getting them on the railroad with this big scripted set-piece, why would you stop now? Just have them get the information some other way. Why would a single dying guy be the only source of information about this plot? They "just happened" to come upon a ritual in progress, why is it crazy that they "just happen" to find a journal of information, or "just happen" to run into a sage who knows something about it and asks them to embark on a quest? Be creative, there are a thousand ways they could get information about an evil cult that wants to end the world. If you're determined to force this epic storyline on them in the first place, you might as well stay the course and get them on track with conveniently placed information.

NichG
2014-09-02, 08:25 PM
Put me down for 'let the world burn'. At the same time, though, I'd say this is a good point to think carefully about how the apocalypse is going to work. You have a lot of choices here - you could do an Elder Evils thing where there are building signs throughout the world as things get closer to the end; you could do something where just suddenly there's chaos as a legion of extraplanar beings descends upon the world, but those extraplanar beings have a particular thing they need to accomplish to lock the conquest in place and they're too busy focusing on that to just scour the land clean; etc.

These are all opportunities to create tipping points that the PCs can mess with, which means the game can continue and things can stay relevant/interesting. If you just decide 'ritual goes to completion in secrecy, the world is now dead' then you're picking the least interesting of the possible outcomes.

The other thing to consider is, can you make a link back to these guys 10 or 20 games from now? Moments where the PCs realize 'oh, that's what that was about?!' are pretty awesome. If, after the apocalypse arrives, the PCs can re-discover that it can all be traced back to what they interrupted that one time, then that'll give a really strong impression to them that what they do and discover matters, and that the world is made of logically interconnected things that are deeper than just what the PCs happen to be doing right then.

KillianHawkeye
2014-09-03, 01:20 AM
The hardest lesson I learned back when I was a new DM (and the reason I write my own adventures now instead of using pre-written ones) is that you need to be adaptable. The players spend the entire game reacting and adapting to whatever it is you decide to throw at them, and you need to be able to do the same. Don't run an interactive adventure or even just a single scene as if it was a novel where there is only one solution and everything is ruined if it doesn't happen just right. Sometimes that means only a small detour, but other times it means changing your plans and throwing stuff out.

As others have suggested, having multiple clues for plot-important details is a great way to cover yourself in case the PCs do something unexpected. My strategy goes a step further and actually considers multiple paths that the adventure might take depending on which of my plot hooks the players are most interested in pursuing. If all else fails, don't forget Deus ex Machina. I know that it gets a bad rap, but in a fantasy game where there are actual gods and goddesses, sending your players a cryptic message or a prophetic dream can be a life saver provided you don't overuse it.

This can be difficult. Trust me, I know. But if you can manage it, you will have more rewarding and more memorable games. Just think about all those times as a player when something crazy and unexpected happened, when you and your group were just clever enough and lucky enough to pull victory from the jaws of defeat? Those are the games you remember. If you can recapture that feeling on the DM's side of the screen by running a game that's truly being written by both you and the players together, you will have more fun and be a better DM for it.

Knaight
2014-09-03, 01:30 AM
The first method is just avoiding this situation in the first place - don't lean so heavily on pre-made plots, don't lean so heavily on investigation, concealed information, etc. so on and so forth. That said, if you're going to do that, find other ways to get that information to the PCs. Maybe someone else in opposition to the cult hears about their activities and throws them a line. Maybe the cult shows up somewhere else later. Maybe they find a journal, or a spell book, or even a historical account of a similar group doing a similar thing that gives them something to work with. So on and so forth.

Plus, the dying speech is about the worst way to get the information to them, so the players putting the kibosh on that is actually pretty helpful.

Bulhakov
2014-09-03, 08:06 AM
Prep in advance (or improvise on the spot) several "backup" ways to find out about the plot:
- a prisoner that was meant to be a sacrifice, so the bad guys talked freely next to him about the rest of the plan
- turncoat henchman - "don't kill me, I'll tell you all about the boss' evil plan"
- instruction manual for the ritual found in the treasure chest
- prophetic dreams for one of the PCs (who touched an artifact or got some magical feedback from the interrupted ritual)

Jay R
2014-09-03, 11:51 AM
In a game of Flashing Blades (role-playing in the world of the musketeers), I was introducing a new PC. So I had them meeting a contact (previously unknown to them) in an outlaw band one of them was in, and the new Rogue was the contact.

But the rogue started by trying to pick the pocket of one of the other PCs. They stopped him, grabbed him, and threw him out of the tavern. Then they tried to find their contact, by accosting other people in the tavern.

Undaunted, the rogue/contact tried to come back in to find the people he was supposed to meet, and they threw him out as soon as they saw him - twice. I couldn't find a way to get them together with their new contact if they would always throw him out the window on sight.

Eventually, they decided that the man drinking alone in the corner must be their contact, and kept trying to talk to him while he kept ignoring them. Finally, absolutely certain that this man was their contact, one PC knocked his mug off the table and demanded that he talk to them.

And that's how one of the PCs got himself into a duel with Athos.

Garimeth
2014-09-03, 11:56 AM
In a game of Flashing Blades (role-playing in the world of the musketeers), I was introducing a new PC. So I had them meeting a contact (previously unknown to them) in an outlaw band one of them was in, and the new Rogue was the contact.

But the rogue started by trying to pick the pocket of one of the other PCs. They stopped him, grabbed him, and threw him out of the tavern. Then they tried to find their contact, by accosting other people in the tavern.

Undaunted, the rogue/contact tried to come back in to find the people he was supposed to meet, and they threw him out as soon as they saw him - twice. I couldn't find a way to get them together with their new contact if they would always throw him out the window on sight.

Eventually, they decided that the man drinking alone in the corner must be their contact, and kept trying to talk to him while he kept ignoring them. Finally, absolutely certain that this man was their contact, one PC knocked his mug off the table and demanded that he talk to them.

And that's how one of the PCs got himself into a duel with Athos.

The moral being consequences happen?

Also, I'm kind of curious how that panned out in the mid-term.

Jay R
2014-09-03, 12:11 PM
The moral being consequences happen?

Also, I'm kind of curious how that panned out in the mid-term.

They has been careful to ask me if he was really drunk. Athos? Yes, of course he is - but he can certainly fight exceedingly well drunk.

He wounded the PC enough to make his arm useless for a few days, which ended the fight. After it was over, one of Athos's two seconds called him by name, and the party finally found out who they were messing with.

In the stunned silence that followed, the rogue snuck up and gave the secret sign before they could attack him again.

Tengu_temp
2014-09-03, 12:12 PM
I second (third? Fourth? Eleventh?) the "let them find out from the bad guy's journal" idea. If your campaign idea hinges on the PCs knowing a specific bit of information, then you need to give it to them - prepare three or four ways of them learning the information in a non-obstructive, sensible way, and if they avoid all of them then you either have the most oblivious group on Earth or they're purposely messing with you.

What you don't do is punish the group for not doing an arbitrary thing they didn't know the consequences of. When they learn that the world is doomed because they didn't learn about the ritual from the bad guy they killed, they will be annoyed - and rightly so.

Comet
2014-09-03, 12:19 PM
What you don't do is punish the group for not doing an arbitrary thing they didn't know the consequences of. When they learn that the world is doomed because they didn't learn about the ritual from the bad guy they killed, they will be annoyed - and rightly so.

Finding out you "messed up" after the fact can be fun, funny, scary and exciting. And it's not the end of the game, just another building block in an emerging narrative.

Of course, the players need to be on board for this to work. Some people don't like it and that's fine.

Jay R
2014-09-03, 02:21 PM
Prep in advance (or improvise on the spot) several "backup" ways to find out about the plot:

If you can improvise well, you don't need to prep any in advance. You need to be able to produce "just one more".

Knaight
2014-09-03, 04:38 PM
If you can improvise well, you don't need to prep any in advance. You need to be able to produce "just one more".

Or you just need to prep certain things, depending on what you're good at improvising. Personally, I've always found events the easiest to handle, and will just improvise those, while I might do some prep to set up some quick setting details (and by "some" I mean "30 minutes tops for the entire campaign"), and might keep a name list or two around, particularly if I have to name vehicles with some frequency.

KillianHawkeye
2014-09-04, 05:25 PM
If you can improvise well, you don't need to prep any in advance. You need to be able to produce "just one more".

Just felt like saying, as someone who isn't an awesome improviser myself, that doing at least the framework for several different possibilities really helps me react and fill in stuff on the fly. But without that basic starting point, I have a lot more trouble with it. For me, at least, it's much easier to flesh out the skeleton of an idea than it is to think of something entirely new on the spot. I guess it's the difference between having a starting point and not having one.