Why do people view monks as OP?

[Talakeal]

I know on the internet monks are more or less considered the punchline of the joke that is third edition.

Why is it then that everyone irl has some kneejerk reaction to their brokenness?

The first third edition group I ever played in flat out banned monks for being OP and no one ever questioned it.

The next group I was in allowed monks, but when I wanted to make a VoP monk I was explicitly told no, that was flat out cheap and unfair.

Just yesterday I joined a new group, and the DM went on a giant rant about how the BoED broke third edition because it gave you the ability to make the VoP monk, which is far and away stronger than any other PC class. When I tried to explain that they really weren't any stronger and a whole lot less versatile than a standard WBL monk he simply dismissed me and told me that a clever player could get around all of their limitations.

What is the deal? Why is everyone afraid of the big bad monk?

[Fax Celestis]

My guess is because they look like they get to do a lot of stuff on paper, and they get to ignore a bunch of features that other people don't. Falling damage? Nope. Armor costs? Nope. Two-Weapon Fighting feats? Still no.

So the initial reaction is always "jeez, look at all the stuff this guy gets to do" and never "...okay, he has a lot of stuff, but half of it is basically useless and the other half conflicts with itself."

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Class features, I think. Monks have lots of class features. They have extra attacks and better damage progression and good saves and two AC bonuses and not-terrible skills and immunities and bonus feats and stuns and a save or die and fast movement and other stuff too.

The fact that most of it doesn't really add up to much - 4+dump stat skill points? AC bonuses that don't scale as well as armor? - is easy to miss the first time someone takes two-weapon fighting, stacks it with Flurry and some kamas and goes ham with good rolls on something.

Edit: And you know what? Some of it might be due to the fact that, in popular media, monks are stupid overpowered.

[eggynack]

Lots of abilities, and the abilities appear cool and powerful. Punching someone once a week such that they eventually die sounds powerful in a way that casting a spell to kill your enemy instantly does not, despite the fact that the former is much worse. It helps that the monk appears mundane, and does things that are magical. It feels much stronger when a fighter dimension doors than when a wizard does, because wizards are expected to have that capability. It helps that you also hit a lot of times, which initially appears really good.

[AvatarVecna]

in a normal game, where players are playing the way the designers intended for them to be played, the monk is pretty decent; my first actual game, I played an elf monk, my brother played a human paladin, and our friend played a halfling druid. The druid spent most of her time supporting our characters while we kicked booty and gathered loot. This game continued from 1st level to 14th before it ended due to lack of player interest.

I repeat: the monk and paladin were the powerful characters, while the druid played backup. Think about everything wrong with that sentence.

Optimally speaking, the monk is terrible, but there's a lot of groups who don't play to optimize their characters. Monk is a decent option in a group that doesn't optimize too much; VoP monk in such a group could, by comparison, be considered OP. In the grand scheme of things, both of these options are absolutely terrible, optimally speaking, but not everyone optimizes. And for them, this is a killer combo.

[Psyren]

"But... four attacks!"

[HaikenEdge]

I believe the short answer is, "Lack of complete system mastery."

[Segev]

Consider, too, that the groups who think this may also balk at allowing most of the things which are used to make low-level casters viable. The "core only" crowd are very commonly in this "monk OP!" camp. The thing that puzzles me is how the druid escapes this stigma.

[Rubik]

I believe the short answer is, "Lack of complete any system mastery whatsoever."Fixed that up for you.

[Talakeal]

Yeah, but a lot of people seem actively in denial. Like i was told the other night that all a VoP monk has to do to keep up with flyers or ranged attacks is get a sling with greater magic weapon cast on it. That seems to be less ignorance of system mastery as denial of reality.

[Fax Celestis]

Consider, too, that the groups who think this may also balk at allowing most of the things which are used to make low-level casters viable. The "core only" crowd are very commonly in this "monk OP!" camp. The thing that puzzles me is how the druid escapes this stigma.

In my admittedly limited experience, these kinds of groups played older editions, and 2e druids (especially 2e wildshape) was really really spectacularly awful, so they don't look deeper into it.

[ranagrande]

Monk is pretty good if you take all two levels of it.

Also, just to be fair, it isn't that hard to get flight on a VoP Monk.

[Shining Wrath]

The short answer is that in a low-op game monks have a higher floor.

I can only imagine how your DM would respond to a Warblade. D12 HD *and* full BAB *and* bonus feats *and* these mysterious maneuver things?

I guess the response is that every time someone casts a spell you hang your head and say "Wish I could do cool stuff like that".

[Psyren]

In my admittedly limited experience, these kinds of groups played older editions, and 2e druids (especially 2e wildshape) was really really spectacularly awful, so they don't look deeper into it.

Now you've piqued my curiosity - what was 2e wildshape like?

[Talakeal]

Now you've piqued my curiosity - what was 2e wildshape like?

IIRC
Once per day mammal. Once per day reptile. Once per day bird. Regain d6x10 percent of lost hp. Form must be a real world animal no larger than a black bear. Cannot cast in animal form.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Now you've piqued my curiosity - what was 2e wildshape like?

It just didn't scale well for combat. Being able to change into a completely normal wolf is well and good at some levels, but you don't really have much oomph later in levels. Compare being a wolf at level 12 (which I think is the last level printed in the 2e PHB) to being a dire polar bear, dire tortoise, yellow musk creeper or dragonhawk. That's to say nothing of Exalted/Abberant/Dragon and the other form-enabling feats. Also, no Natural Spell.

[Extra Anchovies]

Yeah, but a lot of people seem actively in denial. Like i was told the other night that all a VoP monk has to do to keep up with flyers or ranged attacks is get a sling with greater magic weapon cast on it. That seems to be less ignorance of system mastery as denial of reality.

It's odd that Monk is everyone's first thought when they take a look at Vow of Poverty, when really the most viable use for it is Druid. When you can turn into a bear, you don't really need material possessions anyways.

Anyways, I'll admit that I used to be in the "monk is a powerful class" camp too, back when I was fairly new to D&D. I feel like part of it is that they're a bit frontloaded; Monk is actually one of the stronger classes (in core, at least) at 2nd level, before magic armor starts outpacing their AC bonus and before casters get enough spells to be useful for a full day's worth (4-6 encounters) of adventuring. Of course, the strongest core class at 2nd level is the riding dog, because of its druid companion :smallbiggrin:

[Fax Celestis]

Now you've piqued my curiosity - what was 2e wildshape like?


Shapechanging

Characters belonging to almost all druidic branches (discussed later in this chapter) can shapechange into various animal forms upon reaching 7th level. For more than the following guidelines, consult the description of a particular branch's granted powers.

Normally, the druid can assume only a limited number of shapes each day, depending on the character's branch; the choice of branch usually restricts the types of forms the druid can assume.

Shifting shape takes one round, during which the druid cannot take other actions. The druid can remain in the new shape indefinitely--the duration of a form ends only when the druid turns back to the original shape or assumes another one. A druid can shift from one shape to another without returning to human form first.

Upon assuming a new form, the druid heals 10% to 60% (1d6-10) of all damage. (Round fractions down.) For example, a druid who has suffered 15 points of damage rolls a 3 on a d6. Therefore, the character regains 30%-15 hp, or 4.5 hp. This value becomes 4 hit points after rounding.

The animal form a druid assumes can vary from the size of a bullfrog or small bird to that of a black bear. Unless noted otherwise, the druid can assume only the form of a normal (real-world) animal in normal proportions. A druid in animal form takes on all the beast's physical characteristics movement rate, abilities, Armor Class (AC), number of attacks, and damage per attack. The druid retains original hit point and saving throw values.

The druid's clothing and one item held in each hand also become part of the new body; these reappear when the druid resumes normal shape. Generally, a druid in animal form cannot use such items, but in particularly challenging campaigns, the DM may allow protective devices, such as a ring of protection, to function normally.

A shapechanged druid radiates strong Alteration magic.

And some example branches:


Shapechanges up to three times a day at 7th level. The druid can assume the form of a land mammal, marine mammal, or bird that dwells in arctic and subarctic climates: a caribou, penguin, polar bear, seal, reindeer, snowy owl, wolf, wolverine, and so on. The druid can't take the same animal's shape more than once each day.


Shapechanges into a normal, real-world reptile, bird, or mammal up to three times per day at 7th level, exactly as described in the PH. Each animal form (reptile, bird, or mammal) can be used only once per day. The druid cannot assume giant forms.



Shapechanges into a normal reptile, bird, or mammal up to three times per day at 7th level. The druid can assume only the form of real-world creatures that live in swamps or wetlands (crocodile, frog, marsh bird, snake, etc.). The druid can adopt each animal form (reptile, bird, or mammal) once per day.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

It's odd that Monk is everyone's first thought when they take a look at Vow of Poverty, when really the most viable use for it is Druid. When you can turn into a bear, you don't really need material possessions anyways.

It's about thematics. VoP Monk is incredibly thematically appropriate. So are VoP Clerics and Paladins, IMO, but they're mechanically difficult in a way that Monks aren't. And when you're talking about low-level games, before flight and other utility magic items become essential, VoP is great because you're getting a little something for basically nothing. And that meshes well with the Monk's frontloading of useful features. And then you get to level 8 and it's just a big pile of regret all around.

[Vhaidara]

I repeat: the monk and paladin were the powerful characters, while the druid played backup. Think about everything wrong with that sentence.

Nothing, really. Druids make amazing support casters. Whenever I join a lower OP group, I generally build towards something like a God Wizard or a superbard, because those are all about turning your party members into machines. Take away the buffomancer, and they are D-E-D ded.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Nothing, really. Druids make amazing support casters. Whenever I join a lower OP group, I generally build towards something like a God Wizard or a superbard, because those are all about turning your party members into machines. Take away the buffomancer, and they are D-E-D ded.

I had the pleasure of DMing a friend of mine's deliberately poorly optimized DFI Bard, who was a Gnome and rode around on the shoulders of our Goliath Barbarian. It was a pretty delightful version of the Dota 2 Alchemist, and one of the most fun characters played in one of my games. Even if you can do everything, it's usually more fun not to.

[Curmudgeon]

Most of the time, class features in D&D are more powerful than feats. So, based on that assumption, a Monk should be more powerful than a Fighter (class features at every level vs. feats at alternate levels). Here's WotC's view, from their Dead Levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) online article:
MONK

The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes. The problem, of course, is that Monk class features (a) suck; and (b) don't work together. "Most colorful and unique" does not mean powerful or even somewhat useful.

[atemu1234]

Even though it's pretty horrible (though I still have a preference for it over straight monk) I like VOP monk. Yes, it's horrible, but you were likely to have another player casting Mighty Wallop on you without buying the wand anyway. Plus, your group gets your share of the treasure, spends it on things for you and casts spells on you.

[eggynack]

Plus, your group gets your share of the treasure, spends it on things for you and casts spells on you.
That's not accurate. By the book, a VoP character receives a share of the treasure, and is expected to donate it in some fashion. There is thus no net increase in the WBL of other party members.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Even though it's pretty horrible (though I still have a preference for it over straight monk) I like VOP monk. Yes, it's horrible, but you were likely to have another player casting Mighty Wallop on you without buying the wand anyway. Plus, your group gets your share of the treasure, spends it on things for you and casts spells on you.

Not so much.


Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of poverty should not necessarily mean that the other party members get bigger shares of treasure! An ascetic character must be as extreme in works of charity as she is in self-denial. The majority of her share of party treasure (or the profits from the sale thereof) should be donated to the needy, either directly (equipping rescued captives with gear taken from their fallen captors) or indirectly (making a large donation to a temple noted for its work among the poor). While taking upon herself the burden of poverty voluntarily, an ascetic recognizes that many people do not have the freedom to choose poverty, but instead have it forced upon them, and seeks to better those unfortunates as much as possible.

[kulosle]

The short answer is that in a low-op game monks have a higher floor.

I can only imagine how your DM would respond to a Warblade.

This. VoP monk is pretty good in non optimized games, with no work required to get them that good. The people that think monk is good are the same people that think book of the nine swords is op. Martial classes can't have nice things, is a mentality of a lot of players, and monk actually breaks a lot of that on its own.

Also with monk you don't have to go looking around for the right spells to make your character strong. all of the top tier classes take a lot of work to make them top tier. monk is just monk. Hell even fighter takes work to make them good. I mean it's really simple work (power attack shock trooper) but its work. unlike vop monk. it gets nice things. And of all the classes it is probably the strongest if you put no work into it.

[Phelix-Mu]

Lack. Of. Experience.

[Fax Celestis]

This. VoP monk is pretty good in non optimized games, with no work required to get them that good. The people that think monk is good are the same people that think book of the nine swords is op. Martial classes can't have nice things, is a mentality of a lot of players, and monk actually breaks a lot of that on its own.

Also with monk you don't have to go looking around for the right spells to make your character strong. all of the top tier classes take a lot of work to make them top tier. monk is just monk. Hell even fighter takes work to make them good. I mean it's really simple work (power attack shock trooper) but its work. unlike vop monk. it gets nice things. And of all the classes it is probably the strongest if you put no work into it.

Interesting point, but I think it's true: in a vacuum, with no feats and no spells, monk is probably objectively better because it actually has things it does on its own.

Then again, so does rogue...but I've had plenty of people nerf sneak attack because he gets to get those dice on every swing.

[nedz]

The tier system considers classes in isolation. One feature of the Monk class is that it is MAD, which means that it buffs up well, so if you have a lot of buffing support casters it improves more than say a Fighter. The MADness also means that Items help the Monk more than other classes.

The upshot of this is that in a party where the Clerics Heal or Buff, and the Wizards Blast or Buff, the Monk appears stronger.

Monk with Dex, Wisdom and straight AC buffs can be very hard to hit — and this is easy to achieve.

Flying requires an item or a buff, and so on.

Getting them to do actual damage, or even hit reliably, is harder — but, again, there are buffs for this too.

[Zaq]

It's odd that Monk is everyone's first thought when they take a look at Vow of Poverty, when really the most viable use for it is Druid. When you can turn into a bear, you don't really need material possessions anyways.

It's the fact that Monks don't usually use a weapon or any armor that makes people think "well, then VOP doesn't make them give up anything at all, durr hurr!" Completely neglecting, of course, all the other things that Monks DO need.

[Phelix-Mu]

The tier system considers classes in isolation. One feature of the Monk class is that it is MAD, which means that it buffs up well, so if you have a lot of buffing support casters it improves more than say a Fighter. The MADness also means that Items help the Monk more than other classes.

The upshot of this is that in a party where the Clerics Heal or Buff, and the Wizards Blast or Buff, the Monk appears stronger.

Monk with Dex, Wisdom and straight AC buffs can be very hard to hit — and this is easy to achieve.

Flying requires an item or a buff, and so on.

Getting them to do actual damage, or even hit reliably, is harder — but, again, there are buffs for this too.

This is an excellent, and perhaps under-promoted, point.

Some classes can do just about anything well by themselves. Sadly, this is a group game, so even that measure of power is far from intrinsic merit.

Monks, on the other hand, have weaknesses that respond well to typical party makeup, with enough flexibility (considering that any outcome will still be subpar compared to higher tiers) to fill any of several roles (if not exceptionally well). Alongside buffs, they benefit well from friendly crowd-control support with their high mobility, from ranged attacks with their mobility, and from opportunities to engage in a bit of stealth (which they can be decent at in a campaign that calls for such...usually a campaign with several stealth characters, as splitting up the party based on stealth capability is logistically perilous for both characters and DMs).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Most of the time, class features in D&D are more powerful than feats. So, based on that assumption, a Monk should be more powerful than a Fighter (class features at every level vs. feats at alternate levels). Here's WotC's view, from their Dead Levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) online article: The problem, of course, is that Monk class features (a) suck; and (b) don't work together. "Most colorful and unique" does not mean powerful or even somewhat useful.

Not only do the features suck, but quite a few of them are there solely to try (and fail) to offset the massive nerf that fighting with no manufactured weapon (or massive arsenal of natural attacks with pounce) and no armor or shield (even WIZARDS can benefit from a mithral buckler and spiked chain fighters grab animated shield; monk's the only one forced to abstain from +1 to +7 cheap AC) and a medium BAB with absolutely zero spellcasting support is in D&D. Everyone who is wowed by the sheer number of class features always forgets that. Many of them are there just to try to get the monk up to par w/ an NPC Warrior of the same level wearing armor and swinging a sword, nevermind that other PC classes are getting actual boons on top of that.

[squiggit]

Big weapon damage die. Looking at the chart and seeing 2d10 punches makes the jaw drop.

Class features. Monks are one of two classes in the PHB who advance a class feature every level (the other being the Barbarian, another class that has a reputation in low-op).

Flurry looks crazy in a vacuum when you're looking at nothing but those big damage dice and the number of hits.

It's odd that Monk is everyone's first thought when they take a look at Vow of Poverty, when really the most viable use for it is Druid. When you can turn into a bear, you don't really need material possessions anyways.
The poor wanderer who's actually a kung fu genius is a pretty common archetype, and vows like that are a big thing for real life monks. So it makes sense.

[Troacctid]

I think my initial reaction when I saw the 3.5 Monk for the first time (as a player who was introduced to D&D with 4th Edition) was something like: "So you can't move and Flurry in the same round. So...unless you AND your enemy are both standing still, you can't use it at all? Unarmored AC...okay, but all that does is make up for not wearing armor, it's not going to be a net gain. Unarmed strike...it still deals less damage than a regular weapon! I don't understand this class. None of these class features do anything!"

Maybe 4e spoiled me.

[Gemini476]

I think my initial reaction when I saw the 3.5 Monk for the first time (as a player who was introduced to D&D with 4th Edition) was something like: "So you can't move and Flurry in the same round. So...unless you AND your enemy are both standing still, you can't use it at all? Unarmored AC...okay, but all that does is make up for not wearing armor, it's not going to be a net gain. Unarmed strike...it still deals less damage than a regular weapon! I don't understand this class. None of these class features do anything!"

Maybe 4e spoiled me.
4E is one of what, two editions with good monks? AD&D's had issues, 3E is 3E and full attacks actions take a full round, and I don't know much about the 5E monk but their damage doesn't scale well and they have a serious Ki deficiency.
4E, meanwhile, has the Monk as a magnificent pinball wizard.

And BECMI has a somewhat broken monk, from what I've heard. At level nine (name level and just before you get into Mystic Highlander) you have three attacks for 2d8 damage each when compared to the Fighter who has maybe one attack at 2d6+1 damage (and +2 to-hit) if at Skilled mastery with a two-handed sword. Against enemies with roundabout 9d8(40) hit points.
...Yeah. Also, the Mystic has what's pretty much super-Spring Attack when it comes to being able to split its attacks up while moving. This is in an edition that doesn't give the fighter a "1 attack/level vs. 1HD enemies" ability.
In true old schoolfashion the Mystic makes up for its overpowerdness by virtue of being underpowered at low levels (and also really hard to get the prerequisites for) - d6 hit dice and literally unarmed AC at first level (+1 for every level thereafter) does not make for an easy start. Then again the same thing could be said for pretty much every BECMI class.

I've been thinking about making some homebrew conversion of the Mystic to 3.5, actually. It might be interesting to see what people think of its abilities.

[TheIronGolem]

Another factor to consider is that low-level games are by far more common than mid- or high-level games, and the low levels are the ones that best mask the monk's weaknesses. At level 1, that WIS+DEX to AC is just as good as whatever armor the fighter can afford (better, if you're caught flat-footed), and you're doing as much damage as a guy with two shortswords (okay, daggers if you're Small) with only slightly less chance to hit. Then at level 2 you get Evasion, which is awesome as long as the enemy wizards are just hucking Fireballs at you all day - which many DM's have them do. By the time the Monk's problems are obvious enough to overcome the bias created by the low-level experience, the game is likely to have fallen apart anyway.

Basically, players who neither play a lot of high-level games nor engage in theorycrafting on forums - i.e. most players - don't get many chances to see the cracks in the class balancing.

[holywhippet]

Agreed. The whole class tier theory doesn't even become relevant until about level 7 when the casting classes start to get decent spells to cast and plenty of them.

At reasonably high level a monk has a very high movement speed and can use spring attack to get in, do damage, and fall back out of attack range. The only decent physical counters are ranged attacks (which the monk can counter by blocking line of sight) or preparing an action to attack when the monk comes in range.

There is no good counter for certain spells though. A flying, invisible can just pound a monk at range with spells that don't offer a reflex save.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Wait there are good monk classes out there? even ones that are actually Powerful? Where do we find these books what systems are they?
I am sorry but I am fan of the Monk idea, but the Monk class only works if you have it gestalted and really only RP the fluff of a monk.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wait there are good monk classes out there? even ones that are actually Powerful? Where do we find these books what systems are they?
I am sorry but I am fan of the Monk idea, but the Monk class only works if you have it gestalted and really only RP the fluff of a monk.

If Monk in 2E is anything like it is in Baldur's Gate, they get pretty good at high levels. I think mine had ~ 92% immunity to all magic, plus great saves, plus an insane amount of attacks that all generally hit...

[Sam K]

If Monk in 2E is anything like it is in Baldur's Gate, they get pretty good at high levels. I think mine had ~ 92% immunity to all magic, plus great saves, plus an insane amount of attacks that all generally hit...

I think the BG reference really sums it up. In computer RPG style combat, where you fight wave after wave of meatbags with limited magic support and few tactics, monks (and well built fighters) are powerhouses: "OMG CLEAVE CLEAVE FLURRY FLURRY!" "Lol wizard is out of spells already!" And seeing how many players are probably exposed to CRPGs before PnP RPGs these days, that will likely become the norm for many players. If the enemy starts flying, and you factor in the expected number of encounters per day, things change.

Also, while monk is pretty bad, it's in fact quite hard to make worse. Whatever you put your stats into (except charisma, maybe) will benefit you in some way. In poorly optimized (not to be confused with low OP where people actively decide not to build too strong characters, I'm talking about the games where people pick feats like endurance, self sufficient and diehard on fighters because they think it is a mechanically sound choice for a fighter) the monk is likely to come out ahead.

[Divide by Zero]

Whatever you put your stats into (except charisma, maybe) will benefit you in some way.

Don't forget that Charisma boosts your UMD!

[Rubik]

Don't forget that Charisma boosts your UMD!And Giocomoronic monk "optimization" aside, it also boots Diplomacy, which actually is a monk skill.

Love ya, DbZ. :smallwink:

[Talakeal]

If Monk in 2E is anything like it is in Baldur's Gate, they get pretty good at high levels. I think mine had ~ 92% immunity to all magic, plus great saves, plus an insane amount of attacks that all generally hit...

IIRC Perfect Self actually made epic level monks count as demigods in 2E. Bladur's Gate actually gave them the whole gamut of immunities that went with divinity. I remember when I was fighting Balthazar (the level 40 monk villain in BG2 EX) on my mage and I cast time step to prep for the fight, and Balthazar proceeded to be immune to the effect, follow me into my own stopped time stream, and pound my mage to dust while my party was frozen.

You know, come to think of it, Divine Ranks might be exactly what the 3E monk needs...

[Troacctid]

I'm thinking of houseruling Flurry of Blows to work on a standard action attack in my next game.

[Gwendol]

That, and giving the poor monks full BAB is a decent carrot.

[LordAshenshield]

Pathfinder gave them Full BAB but only during Flurry.

[georgie_leech]

Wait there are good monk classes out there? even ones that are actually Powerful? Where do we find these books what systems are they?
I am sorry but I am fan of the Monk idea, but the Monk class only works if you have it gestalted and really only RP the fluff of a monk.

The 4E Monk isn't the best Striker in the game because it spreads the damage out to much, but it's one of the most mobile, having scads of movement abilities to go along with varied and effective attack powers. A while back (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16826314&postcount=123)I built a Dragon-emulating Monk that can damage multiple enemies, has several types of attack (doing actually relevant damage, rather than 3.5's unarmed progression), can trip enemies, has enhanced jumps that let it flip around like all the best wuxia movies, has temporary flight, can damage everything around it with force damage, and increase its melee reach for an entire encounter. Other interesting things I could have had him do instead include forcing an enemy to attack one of its allies, attacking multiple opponents to Slow them all after shifting them around the battlefield, and setting up a sonic resonance effect between two creatures that makes it so whenever one is damaged the other takes Thunder (Sonic) damage. All available from level 1.

[Knaight]

There are two main things. One is that lower levels see more play, and monks legitimately have some good stuff going for them in those levels (starting with the saves). Another is that the monk just looks powerful. They get highly visible big numbers (2d10 damage, move speed, etc.) and a long list of features, which are generally pretty evocative. Slow falling with a wall just sounds cool and powerful, even if it's actually pretty limited, has limited utility due to falling damage being pretty minimal, and is totally outclassed by Feather Fall.

Consider the caster classes - they have no plainly visible big numbers, and tend to have really boring class features, consisting mostly of a spell table. Then, the actual list of spells is pretty uninspiring. If the list is trimmed down to a presentable one of high powered options they look downright ridiculous, but it's not immediately apparent. They don't get the big numbers, the cool names, any of that. So they don't necessarily seem powerful.

[Seppo87]

There's a significant psychological factor involved.
New players need a symbolic drawback to accept powerful abilities.

A symbolic drawback is a threat, real or percieved (see the spellbook example), that the power may me unavailable (or dangerous) under certain circumnstances.

Wizards run out of spells. Spellbooks can (theoretically) be stolen.
Wild shape has a limited duration.
A fighter's equipment can be stolen or destroyed. The DM may not give any.
Sneak Attack requires conditions and may be negated

The monk? Well you can't disarm a monk. You can't stop his AC bonus. You can't stop his damage dice from growing. He's not going to run out of Slow Fall effects.

VoP Monk is the epitome of this. His full power is always available in all situations. There are no apparent way to nerf him, short of having him fall.
And his AC is probably excellent, which also scares novice DMs.

It's a psychological, symbolic thing.
Divine Power? "it has a round based duration and limited uses"
In practice, the limitation ceases to exist after a few levels.
But since it FEELS limited, then people are okay with it being overpowered.

VOP Monk just feels like it has no drawbacks. And this really grinds some people gears.

[Spore]

The monk in our group once jumped a chasm that should divide the group from their linear guild. I think it was that moment when our DM decided not to invite him anymore...the monk's a decent class if it weren't for the Ki Pool desaster and combat likely to take to air around mid levels I'd say. I changed my character voluntarily from Blaster Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple to Monk because my DM didn't want his NPCs to evaporate in a small cloud of smoke. But my divine full caster patching people up, supporting the group and providing even an excuse to use the almighty divine intervention is very welcome.

The problem is that a monk's combat style is composed of almost exclusively epic images how he fights the enemy. Take our fight vs. a Lich for example. The monk jumps the gap to the spellcaster from afar and grapples the hideous creature forcing a Dimension Door spell. My character climbs the wall up and drops off on him again to grab onto his flying butt and flurry him. I deal a poor amount of damage when he casts massive no-save debuffs nerfing my damage and my saves and then almost killing me with his fiery blast. An epic battle ensues.

Meanwhile on the other side of the room: The wizard snips her fingers and I get Fire Resistance 20. The sorcerer snips his fingers and he disarms the Lich, gaining a Metamagic Rod of Quicken Spell. The wizard summons something while the sorcerer snips twice and the Lich gets killed by a Disintegrate spell.

Then remember that I couldn't have done ANYTHING if it weren't for my RACIAL climb speed and if we weren't in a large cathedral.

Also Dragon Ball Z.

[Morty]

Like other people have said - the monk seems powerful. If someone doesn't have all the nitty-gritty knowledge of power structure of 3e D&D, a class with all good saves that can do the same damage as a greatsword-wielding fighter with its fists (which it actually can't, but it looks like it can) and has a laundry list of cool-sounding features... people will think it's powerful. If nobody really optimizes, it might well hold up in actual play - eventually, the monk's weakness will shine through, but a few casual, low-level sessions can definitely make it look strong, depending on the circumstances.

[Talionis]

Floor vs Ceiling

We think Wizards are powerful because they have a high ceiling, but their floor is pretty low, especially at low levels. If you play a Wizard poorly, you'll die before you get to higher levels. If you prepare all the wrong spells you won't be worth a darn.

In low Op, players and DMs look at the floor because most of them don't get any farther from it than they can jump.

In High Op, we look at ceilings . If we pick all the right feats and spells a Wizard can live in outer space and practically seem like they don't have a ceiling.

Truly a great point about MAD having an upside if you get buffs for multiple stats. I never looked at it that way, since it seems costly of resources.

[Elderand]

Truly a great point about MAD having an upside if you get buffs for multiple stats. I never looked at it that way, since it seems costly of resources.

That's because it's not actually a great point, yeah you can gain more from buff, but don't forget the caveat, you gain more because you start that much worse and you need more buff.
That's like saying a bycicle is great because the difference between it's old speed and new speed is greater when you stick an engine to it than the difference in speed on a motorcycle if you stick with a better engine.

Worse, by needing more buffs you are actually mobilizing ressources away from other class that could actually do something useful. You're weakening the wizard or cleric by having to be babysitted by them.

[Segev]

Truly a great point about MAD having an upside if you get buffs for multiple stats. I never looked at it that way, since it seems costly of resources.

It seems so, and can be, but you're right that it's a good (and oft-overlooked) point. In a way, it's beneficial because it allows you to buff extra things with a lower outlay, because getting 4 stats at +4 is cheaper than getting 2 stats at +6.

It's still better if you can get an "omni-stat" SAD that you buff through the roof, because if you get nearly everything depending on that one stat, you get much higher values for your money.

It's a matter of what you're optimizing. If you're optimizing numbers of things to buff, bringing it all to one SAD is nice. If you're looking to optimize one thing (like, say, AC), then MAD which adds multiple stats to that one thing lets you buff it with less money and a higher ceiling. (The monk, for instance, gets Dex and Wis to AC, which means if you want to buff his AC, you can use two spells to give +2 each or buy two +4 stat items rather than 1 +6 item...and not quite raising it as much.)

But it's not the TYPICAL way optimization works because it's much more situational and focused, and optimization pushes for T1, which is all about omni-applicability.

[Graypairofsocks]

Yeah, but a lot of people seem actively in denial. Like i was told the other night that all a VoP monk has to do to keep up with flyers or ranged attacks is get a sling with greater magic weapon cast on it. That seems to be less ignorance of system mastery as denial of reality.

Wow, just wow.

[ngilop]

My guess is because they look like they get to do a lot of stuff on paper, and they get to ignore a bunch of features that other people don't. Falling damage? Nope. Armor costs? Nope. Two-Weapon Fighting feats? Still no.

So the initial reaction is always "jeez, look at all the stuff this guy gets to do" and never "...okay, he has a lot of stuff, but half of it is basically useless and the other half conflicts with itself."

this is me agreeing with Fax, a rather rare occurance.

id also add that a lot of people are probably going into the mindset that 3rd ed monk = to 1st edition monk

but that's probably a small % of peeps.


these are the same people who cry 'OP FIGHTER" when you give the fighter a d12 HP 4 skill points, and weapon aptitude for free makes no sense to me and it never will.

[Telonius]

Consider, too, that the groups who think this may also balk at allowing most of the things which are used to make low-level casters viable. The "core only" crowd are very commonly in this "monk OP!" camp. The thing that puzzles me is how the druid escapes this stigma.

Druid is very powerful even in Core, but it's one of those classes that requires a lot of system mastery and work to play to its full potential. Yeah, Natural Spell is obvious. But if you're going to really pull out all the stops for a Druid, you need to have a notebook full of stat blocks for both yourself, your animal companion, and all of the stuff you might want to summon. Almost no beginning player is going to want to do all that, or even know where to start with it. The DM might be the only person who has a copy of the Monster Manual, the player might not know about d20srd, the player probably won't have enough metagame knowledge to know the best animal to Shapechange into for each circumstance. By the time you know the system well enough to do all that, you might as well be the DM.

[Max Caysey]

Because Tippy once created a monk that was the most powerful creature in the multiverse! :smallbiggrin:

[Fax Celestis]

In low Op, players and DMs look at the floor because most of them don't get any farther from it than they can jump.

...which is funny, because monks end up with ludicrous Jump check bonuses from their speed increases.

[Lightlawbliss]

Because Tippy once created a monk that was the most powerful creature in the multiverse! :smallbiggrin:

I'm fairly sure PunPun doesn't work with monk.

[Graypairofsocks]

...which is funny, because monks end up with ludicrous Jump check bonuses from their speed increases.

Speaking of jump bonuses I wonder why they removed the monks leap of the clouds(forget the name) ability which removed the height limit on jumps in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5E.

[Fax Celestis]

Speaking of jump bonuses I wonder why they removed the monks leap of the clouds(forget the name) ability which removed the height limit on jumps in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5E.

Because there's no height limit on jumps in general in 3.5. Leap of the Clouds itself got folded into a feat in PHB-II that made you always count as running for determining a jump check's results.

[killem2]

It really depends on the players and their style. I have had players that are completely blind to any form of tactical strategy or optimization. So, where I would probably go into the a character creation thinking, oh I want to fight with a bunch of attacks, I would probably do something ridiculous like thrikreen into crescent knives just for the hell of it. Or lightning maces on elven blades or the like.

These players though don't look out side the box, and see the wave of attacks and say, well damn, look at that, with no extra feats or anything. I think people like the idea of a martial artist in the way of matrix/crouching tiger type over the top fighter. It doesn't help that the fluff blows a lot of smoke up peoples asses. :smallwink:

[Ivanhoe]

The tier system considers classes in isolation. One feature of the Monk class is that it is MAD, which means that it buffs up well, so if you have a lot of buffing support casters it improves more than say a Fighter. The MADness also means that Items help the Monk more than other classes.

The upshot of this is that in a party where the Clerics Heal or Buff, and the Wizards Blast or Buff, the Monk appears stronger.

Monk with Dex, Wisdom and straight AC buffs can be very hard to hit — and this is easy to achieve.

Flying requires an item or a buff, and so on.

Getting them to do actual damage, or even hit reliably, is harder — but, again, there are buffs for this too.

Since I currently think to try a monk character, and being quite uncertain due to the many complaints about the monk class, I think this is a bit reassuring.
In a way, I would have never thought as experienced by the OP that the monk is overpowered. But I did not see many troubles, either, until I read some forums (including posts here).
A question, nedz: Would you then think that the monk class works just fine with a normal party around? Thanks!

[Gemini476]

Wait there are good monk classes out there? even ones that are actually Powerful? Where do we find these books what systems are they?
I am sorry but I am fan of the Monk idea, but the Monk class only works if you have it gestalted and really only RP the fluff of a monk.
Well, if you really want to stick with the D&D brand name then the 4E monk (Player's Handbook 3) is a bundle of fun, the Rules Cyclopedia Mystic is borderline overpowered, and the AD&D monk from what I've read is bad in core but maybe gets some buffs in the various martial arts in Oriental Adventures? (d4 hit dice is not a good thing for a melee-focused class, TSR.)

For games outside that, there's actually a bunch of options. I've heard good things about unarmed fighters in RuneQuest, for instance, and Exalted and Anima have the Big Anime Punches covered, and even the World of Darkness has some pretty good unarmed options if I remember right. GURPS can also handle it pretty well, AFAIK, and Fate could as well. I think I also recall something about grappling being somewhat overpowered in The Riddle of Steel?
Oh yeah, do note that none of these systems have "classes" as such. They're mostly rather point-buy, although RuneQuest IIRC is in that weird place where your point-buy options are restricted by the "class" you have? I dunno, I've only played an old version of the Swedish knockoff Drakar och Demoner.

I'm pretty sure that there are some more games with good unarmed combat, but that's what I can remember off the top of my head.

And if you're stuck with playing Dungeons & Dragons 3.5, the (unarmed) Swordsage is a somewhat good substitute. Oh, and there's also a pretty decent Barbarian with lots of alternate class features that can play at being a Monk and be better at the unarmed fighting than the monk in question. (Full BAB-4 from TWF+Whirling Frenzy has a certain tendency to beat medium BAB+Flurry.) The latter still has issues with Full Attacks, but pounce and some fancy charging ACFs help mitigate that.

I'm not too sure what you can do in Pathfinder, but I think I remember something about the Warpriest getting unarmed damage progression? Oh, and opium-laced shuriken, but that's not exactly part of the standard unarmed fighter archetype.

[Dominuce2112]

OP is not broken. Not in this sense anyway. This class is broken because it cant keep up with anything and even (especially) with the VoP pretty much all classes will out do w/e youre trying to do.

The only real way to make monk viable is to go 2monk/18 psychic warrior or something.

Anyone thinking monks are OP are new to 3.5

[Nightcanon]

I agree that the effect of cRPGs as a route into playing D&D masks their weaknesses. Having played a fair bit of 2nd ed in my teens (and some 1st ed before that) I picked up second-hand copies of Temple of Elemental Evil and Icewind Dale 2 on a whim and played them through with various party compositions (also played NWN1)
Characteristics of cRPGs in my experience:

If you are playing a party as one player, you tend to pool all the wealth and XP resources to even out your round-by-round options for each 'PC' almost subconsciously (because you want each to be able to do something useful each round), which means that armour, weapons and even stat boosters for mundanes are prioritised over tooling up the casters.
Limits on the stuff that makes full casters super-versatile (no Wish, limited Wildshape/Shapechange and Divination options per the game engine), leaving Blasting, BFC and Buffing, all of which integrate quite well with single-player-levels of intra-party co-operation
Game engine limits on what the DM can do to you- generally limited to direct damage with rare save-or-suck effects that are effectively countered by reverting to a saved game and trying again if necessary
Similar limits on things that make direct damage a less-good option for the PCs
Limits to stuff that helps Fighters outpace your damage with their feats- they get Great Cleave quicker but no Pounce/Shock Trooper etc (and while you get Grt Cleave eventually they never get to have Evasion)
A more traditional approach to in-combat healing because of the incentive not to have someone die

So you end up with monks dual-wielding holy axiomatic icy burst kamas while buffed to the max and rarely taking damage because of all the other lovely stuff that your team-mates made for you, while the wizard does battlefield control for you and the cleric holds back his Divine Power and Righteous Might in case he needs to spontaneously cast a cure spell to stop someone dying. You tank pretty well because you can boost your AC to sufficiently high levels that you rarely get hit, and the game engine AI has the bad guys mob you rather than your companions, which means that you get to use Flurry most of the time, which means your damage output is pretty decent in comparison with your fellows. Plus you may have cool animations for your combat moves, making you seem more fun than a Fighter or Cleric in melee.

[LordAshenshield]

I don't want to make a new thread so I will ask this here.

Do monks have anything that has a good threat range or multiplier? I mean just looking through Pathfinder most of monks weapons including their unarmed strike are static 20 at a x2. Rarely they get a x3 at 20 or a x2 at 19-20 range but that is virtually all of their monk weapons even exotic ones.

Is there any way to get a monk or now brawlers unarmed strike to higher threat range?

[killem2]

I don't want to make a new thread so I will ask this here.

Do monks have anything that has a good threat range or multiplier? I mean just looking through Pathfinder most of monks weapons including their unarmed strike are static 20 at a x2. Rarely they get a x3 at 20 or a x2 at 19-20 range but that is virtually all of their monk weapons even exotic ones.

Is there any way to get a monk or now brawlers unarmed strike to higher threat range?

While the monk weapons are exotic, why should that matter, they get profs for them i believe.

[LordAshenshield]

Usually exotic weapons have better damage output or potential is all I meant.

[Fax Celestis]

Usually exotic weapons have better damage output or potential is all I meant.

In theory, they're supposed to. In practice, generally they don't.

[Gemini476]

Exotic weapons have a certain tendency to be a bit better than martial weapons (who are in turn better than simple weapons), but the big issue is that often the improvement isn't worth a feat.

There are exceptions, like Spiked Chains and Kusarigama and whatnot, but for most of them? Eh.

Take a Bastard Sword, for instance. The exotic one-handed version is a direct +1 damage upgrade to the Longsword... which means that Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Bastard Sword) is often worse than Weapon Specialization. Double weapons are like getting a 1d8 damage light weapon to TWF with in addition to your standard 1d8 damage one-handed weapon - except, of course, that's still just a +1 damage increase.

Most exotic weapons that I'm aware of are just martial weapons with some added bits and bobs to make them more interesting. Usually +1 damage or the ability to trip or extra reach.

If your feat is worse than Weapon Specialization, you may want to reconsider.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm thinking of houseruling Flurry of Blows to work on a standard action attack in my next game.


That, and giving the poor monks full BAB is a decent carrot.

My personal fix in three steps:

1.) Monks get full BAB and either replace Str Mod to att/dmg with Wis Mod (low power) or add Wisdom to att/dmg on top of Strength (higher power).

2.) Monks get to move 1/2 their speed every round as a swift action, should they choose to do so. This fixes FoB's main dysfunction without straight up granting Pounce, and allows added maneuverability (which is arguably the monk's primary schtick).

3.) A Brains Over Brawn-type ability that allows the monk to add their Wisdom modifier to all Str and Dex-based checks and skill checks, including combat maneuvers like grapple, bull rush, etc, and optionally to other stuff like Initiative (arguably Dex-based). This allows a monk to more effectively dump Int and still be good at all the various skills that they are good at in the fluff. If more oomph is desired, add a scaling bonus, which I usually peg at 1/2 character level to all the above checks (but it would be kind of insane to add this to initiative rolls).

There are additional measures that can be taken, but a low-intervention scheme like this keeps most of the core monk intact, which is good for players that want access to the full range of monk ACFs, variants, and sub-levels designed to work with the core monk (which provide huge versatility of concept, if with a modest ceiling for most of their op-potential).

[Emperor Tippy]

OP is not broken. Not in this sense anyway. This class is broken because it cant keep up with anything and even (especially) with the VoP pretty much all classes will out do w/e youre trying to do.

The only real way to make monk viable is to go 2monk/18 psychic warrior or something.

Not really true. A straight Monk can solo all of the Elder Evils if you know what you are doing with the class, for example.

The problem with the Monk is that it has a very low optimization floor and its core class features are traps that a Monk should avoid using if at all possible.


Anyone thinking monks are OP are new to 3.5
They can be made very OP for most games if you build and play them right.

[atemu1234]

They can be made very OP for most games if you build and play them right.

I'd say they can be very OP if you know what you're doing and the rest of your party really, really don't.

[Elderand]

The problem with the Monk is that it has a very low optimization floor and its core class features are traps that a Monk should avoid using if at all possible.

When is a monk a monk ? When you replace all it's class features is it really a monk ? Or is it a new class that just happen to share the name ? It's like a broom, first you replace the handle, then later you replace the brush, and you do it over and over again, is it still the same broom ? Answer: of course it's not but you can still sweep the floor with it.... it's not strictly relevant, skip that last part.

-Signed Elderand: Who may or may not have watched far too much doctor who lately-

[Gemini476]

Not really true. A straight Monk can solo all of the Elder Evils if you know what you are doing with the class, for example.

The problem with the Monk is that it has a very low optimization floor and its core class features are traps that a Monk should avoid using if at all possible.


They can be made very OP for most games if you build and play them right.
Couldn't the same be said of most PC classes?

[atemu1234]

When is a monk a monk ? When you replace all it's class features is it really a monk ? Or is it a new class that just happen to share the name ? It's like a broom, first you replace the handle, then later you replace the brush, and you do it over and over again, is it still the same broom ? Answer: of course it's not but you can still sweep the floor with it.... it's not strictly relevant, skip that last part.

-Signed Elderand: Who may or may not have watched far too much doctor who lately-

I know that feel. I once pulled an all-nighter watching Firefly from start to finish and Serenity... by the end I was singing the theme and calling cool things "shiny"...

Anyway, you're probably right about the monk. But still, there are ways to make it decent.

[ShurikVch]

A straight Monk can solo all of the Elder Evils if you know what you are doing with the class, for example. How? :smallconfused: WtW have unbeatable regeneration, Leviathan is underwater, and Atropus - IN SPACE

[atemu1234]

Atropus - IN SPACE

THE FINAL FRONTIER! THE BATTLE FRONTIER!

Once you become treated as an outsider, don't you no longer need to breath? You could have someone throw you... or teleport you...

I still prefer my D2 Crusader Nuke idea...

*Wizard teleports D2 Crusader to Atropus*
*Wizard teleports away*
D2 Crusader: I attack the planet.

[Elderand]

THE FINAL FRONTIER! THE BATTLE FRONTIER!

Once you become treated as an outsider, don't you no longer need to breath? You could have someone throw you... or teleport you...

I still prefer my D2 Crusader Nuke idea...

*Wizard teleports D2 Crusader to Atropus*
*Wizard teleports away*
D2 Crusader: I attack the planet.

Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

[StoneCipher]

In response to the topic - probably from D3 launch when 4 monks on a team were neigh invincible.

[torrasque666]

THE FINAL FRONTIER! THE BATTLE FRONTIER!

Once you become treated as an outsider, don't you no longer need to breath? You could have someone throw you... or teleport you...

I still prefer my D2 Crusader Nuke idea...

*Wizard teleports D2 Crusader to Atropus*
*Wizard teleports away*
D2 Crusader: I attack the planet.


Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

So clearly the answer to this is to be a Dragonborn Warforged Scout. No need to breath, eat, drink or sleep(provided by the Living Construct subtype, oddly enough not provided by Construct). Small size allows for small gauntlets to be worn and punch the planet into pieces. FALCON PAWNCH!

[ShurikVch]

So clearly the answer to this is to be a Dragonborn Warforged Scout. No need to breath, eat, drink or sleep(provided by the Living Construct subtype, oddly enough not provided by Construct). Small size allows for small gauntlets to be worn and punch the planet into pieces. FALCON PAWNCH! Dragonborn Warforged Scout will keep it's small size, but "No need to breath, eat, drink or sleep" will be lost via transformation

[torrasque666]

Dragonborn Warforged Scout will keep it's small size, but "No need to breath, eat, drink or sleep" will be lost via transformation

Huh. You're right, the subtype is part of the racial traits. Which is lost upon transformation. However, it remains a Construct. Which means it loses its Constitution score as it was granted by the Living Construct subtype, meaning it has no metabolism, and therefore does not need to eat, drink, breath, or sleep.

Alternatively, be Necropolitan Small Sized Humanoid.

EDIT: The FAQ has this to say on the matter
Can a warforged become a dragonborn of Bahamut,and if so what are the racial traits it keeps from the
warforged list?
Despite the misleading entry in the dragonborn racial traits
that suggests that all dragonborn are humanoids, the only
prerequisites for being reborn in this manner are a non-evil
alignment and an Intelligence of 3 or better. Thus, there’s
nothing stopping a warforged from undergoing this ritual and
dedicating himself to the service of Bahamut.
A warforged who becomes a dragonborn would be a
construct with the living construct and dragonblood subtypes.
He’d retain his warforged ability score modifiers and favored
class.
He’d also retain all traits derived from the living construct
subtype, including immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis,
disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain; inability
to heal damage naturally; vulnerability to certain metal- or
wood-affecting spells; and half effect from healing spells. He’d
still become inert at –1 to –9 hp, and he still wouldn’t need to
eat, sleep, or breathe.

I mean, I know that the FAQ isn't "technically" official, but its from WoTC so I consider it a valid source.

[Arbane]

For games outside that, there's actually a bunch of options. I've heard good things about unarmed fighters in RuneQuest, for instance, and Exalted and Anima have the Big Anime Punches covered, and even the World of Darkness has some pretty good unarmed options if I remember right. GURPS can also handle it pretty well, AFAIK, and Fate could as well. I think I also recall something about grappling being somewhat overpowered in The Riddle of Steel?

Also, there's Feng Shui, where the martial artist's fists can be at least as deadly as the killer's bag full of guns, and Legends of the Wulin, which is all about the kung-fu fighting.



Oh yeah, do note that none of these systems have "classes" as such. They're mostly rather point-buy, although RuneQuest IIRC is in that weird place where your point-buy options are restricted by the "class" you have? I dunno, I've only played an old version of the Swedish knockoff Drakar och Demoner.

RQ's not exactly classes OR point-buy. There's a few careers you can get into that restrict your non-magic options simply because they take so much time (like being a priest or a shaman), and the only real point-buy you do is allocating skill-percentiles at character generation. (After that you improve skills by using them or by training.)


I'm not too sure what you can do in Pathfinder, but I think I remember something about the Warpriest getting unarmed damage progression?

PF adds a pool of Ki points to power Monk abilities, and has a few 'archetypes' (like 3.5's alternate class features, but you have to take all 20 levels of them) that are good for monks- Qinggong Monk lets you replace class features with spell-like abilities, some of which are vastly better. Hungry Ghost Monk gives you extra Ki when you crit or kill an enemy. It also adds Combat Styles - Feats that give some nice extras in combat. The latest sourcebook added the Brawler, which is sorta a Monk/Fighter, and a few bare-fisted archetypes for other classes.

[Boogastreehouse]

*


The tier system considers classes in isolation. One feature of the Monk class is that it is MAD, which means that it buffs up well, so if you have a lot of buffing support casters it improves more than say a Fighter. The MADness also means that Items help the Monk more than other classes.

This actually is a great observation. I don't think I've ever realized this, at least not on a conscious level.


Getting them to do actual damage, or even hit reliably, is harder...

Start by prioritizing STRENGTH first. Everyone thinks that Monks should prioritize Dex, but in my book, you get more effect (and it still makes sense thematically) to have Strength as you highest score, followed by either Dex or Wisdom (I like it when they are both the same, myself).

*

[nedz]

Since I currently think to try a monk character, and being quite uncertain due to the many complaints about the monk class, I think this is a bit reassuring.
In a way, I would have never thought as experienced by the OP that the monk is overpowered. But I did not see many troubles, either, until I read some forums (including posts here).
A question, nedz: Would you then think that the monk class works just fine with a normal party around? Thanks!

There are a lot of caveats.

If you max out Hide and Move Silently and If your casters focus on Buffing and If you are allowed to sneak up to within 10 feet of your opponents and If you are in a Low to Mid Op party then they compare well to classes such as Scout and TWF Ranger.

After level 10 or so they begin to run out of options. Maxed out Jump, with you speed bumps, can cover some of the holes due to lack of Flight, but it doesn't cover all of them. Real stealth classes begin to pull ahead from this about this point also.

Level 13 is a disaster — Diamond Soul means you cannot be buffed easily, especially in combat. One Dispel Magic can kill you, assuming you had been buffed already.

If your casters focus on things like BFC, or even summoning, then your character will not be very useful from much earlier in the game — but then you are not in a Low-Mid OP party.

The optimal levels of Monk to take are: 0, 2, 4, 6 or 11; in that order.

Ed:

*Start by prioritizing STRENGTH first. Everyone thinks that Monks should prioritize Dex, but in my book, you get more effect (and it still makes sense thematically) to have Strength as you highest score, followed by either Dex or Wisdom (I like it when they are both the same, myself).*

Nope, your only hope in Combat is to land a successful Stunning Fist so you should max Wisdom. Carmendine (and Possibly KFG) can help here in that you can switch this to Int.

This doesn't help against

Stunning Fist
Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Opponents with good Fort saves are also problematic.

[eggynack]

How? :smallconfused: WtW have unbeatable regeneration, Leviathan is underwater, and Atropus - IN SPACE
He made a whole thread for people to use a monk to kill elder evils hereabouts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial). Cool stuff.

[Boogastreehouse]

*


Start by prioritizing STRENGTH first. Everyone thinks that Monks should prioritize Dex, but in my book, you get more effect (and it still makes sense thematically) to have Strength as you highest score, followed by either Dex or Wisdom (I like it when they are both the same, myself).



Nope, your only hope in Combat is to land a successful Stunning Fist so you should max Wisdom. Carmendine (and Possibly KFG) can help here in that you can switch this to Int.

I'm afraid that I'm a pretty big fan of Treantmonk's guide to Monks (http://www.ourrpgs.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/treantmonk-s-guide-to-monks), so it'll be hard to convince me that high strength isn't the best start toward building a workable Monk.

High Strength is good for hitting, damage and Combat Maneuvers like grapple. One of the Monk's problems is that she can't dish out a competitive amount of damage. The answer is more Strength. You won't be dealing Two-hand-greatsword-power-attack damage, but you will be contributing to the fight.

Also, high strength plus deadly aim allows you to launch a million shuriken with Flurry of Blows, each with full strength damage.

Flurry of Blows can be really effective as you're (essentially) using Two-Weapon fighting (with no off-hand penalties to hit or to Strength damage), plus Power Attack (with no off-hand penalties to hit or to Strength damage). This can really start to add up.

Edit:
2.) Monks get to move 1/2 their speed every round as a swift action, should they choose to do so. This fixes FoB's main dysfunction without straight up granting Pounce, and allows added maneuverability (which is arguably the monk's primary schtick).

Usually I try to work as best I can within the rules and avoid a million house rules, but this is a neat idea. Might be too awesome at high levels, but it's something to think about.

*

[Gemini476]

How? :smallconfused: WtW have unbeatable regeneration, Leviathan is underwater, and Atropus - IN SPACE

Well, let's see if I remember correctly. I don't recall the tactics for Kyuss, but Leviathan just needs you to be able to breath underwater or just hold your breath or whatever while you drop the shard-thingy into its spine and Atropus is kind of the same. Really, just being a Warforged is enough. Lots of WBLmancy was used to get between the Elder Evils (scrolls of Wish, mostly).

I guess you could also just use a Rod of Cancellation on Edwin's Sphere of Annihilation to preemptively annihilate the Worm that Walks. That'd pretty much insta-gib him, although it would probably do the same to you unless you had some Contingency active or something. If it turns into worms (which it's apparently supposed to do once it reaches 100hp), kill all of them through an AoE or Great Cleave or whatever and you're pretty much done. Or just murderstab Edwin Tolstoff before the Sphere of Annihilation touches the obelisk. That might also work.
I don't remember what the contestants came up with for strategies.

I guess you could also just do a ridiculous amount of damage (485ish), knocking him unconscious, and then work out some way to get him dead.

Or just lace your warforged battlefists with Trollbane, I guess.

[nedz]

*
I'm afraid that I'm a pretty big fan of Treantmonk's guide to Monks (http://www.ourrpgs.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/treantmonk-s-guide-to-monks), so it'll be hard to convince me that high strength isn't the best start toward building a workable Monk.

High Strength is good for hitting, damage and Combat Maneuvers like grapple. One of the Monk's problems is that she can't dish out a competitive amount of damage. The answer is more Strength. You won't be dealing Two-hand-greatsword-power-attack damage, but you will be contributing to the fight.

Also, high strength plus deadly aim allows you to launch a million shuriken with Flurry of Blows, each with full strength damage.

Flurry of Blows can be really effective as you're (essentially) using Two-Weapon fighting (with no off-hand penalties to hit or to Strength damage), plus Power Attack (with no off-hand penalties to hit or to Strength damage). This can really start to add up.
*

That's the PF version, even then he puts Wisdom 2nd. A couple more points of damage isn't going to win a fight, stunning usually means the fight is over — for one guy at least.

[Curmudgeon]

One of the Monk's problems is that she can't dish out a competitive amount of damage. The answer is more Strength.
I'm afraid that's really a poor answer.

The easiest thing to fix in the Monk class's long list of problems is the amount of damage they deal out. One daily casting of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon, page 115) by your party Sorcerer/Wizard does the trick, far more effectively than devoting every character resource to increasing Strength. That includes starting with an 18 Strength via point buy, choosing a race with a Strength bonus, devoting every ability increment at levels 4, 8, 12, ... to Strength, and buying magic items which enhance Strength. Instead, that spell automatically increases in effectiveness as your Sorcerer/Wizard gains levels.

[Threadnaught]

Look at all the stuff Monks get as Class Features that other Classes (besides Casters) don't without serious resource expenditure.

Now look at Fighter.


Monk is so interesting and that is why people believe it to be cool and awesome (because it is). That's also why people think it's overpowered, because cool and awesome is always overpowered.
While Fighter is so boring.

[Seppo87]

Monk is so interesting and that is why people believe it to be cool and awesome (because it is). That's also why people think it's overpowered, because cool and awesome is always overpowered.
While Fighter is so boring.
Well usually new players tend to like the fighter, and the most popular "first build" is almost invariably a sword-n-board dwarf with the weapon focus chain, cleave, improved critical and iron will.
And they usually end up getting the spotlight, while the wizard wastes all of his slots in Fireballs and the cleric plays as a healbot because everyone believe that's all the class does.

[atemu1234]

I like fighters because they kind of have that "do-it-yourself build" thing going for it.

[Rubik]

So clearly the answer to this is to be a Dragonborn Warforged Scout. No need to breath, eat, drink or sleep(provided by the Living Construct subtype, oddly enough not provided by Construct). Small size allows for small gauntlets to be worn and punch the planet into pieces. FALCON PAWNCH!Oddly enough, my anti-Elder Evil monk build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) did exactly that. He could even Kool-Aid Man his way through a line of his opponents' bodies in a big, gory mess.


Dragonborn Warforged Scout will keep it's small size, but "No need to breath, eat, drink or sleep" will be lost via transformationActually, dragonborn keep their subtypes, and everything under the Living Construct subtype is likewise kept.


How? :smallconfused: WtW have unbeatable regeneration, Leviathan is underwater, and Atropus - IN SPACEBeat the living crap out of the WtW, then shovel the unconscious worms into an enveloping pit filled with water. I planned on doing so using Metamorphosis to turn into an animated steamshovel.

Surviving underwater at high levels is easy. At worst, it's a 9,000 gp necklace.

Same with Atropus.

As for Zargon, I planned on merely punched his lights out while wearing a thinaun poison ring, entrapping his soul. Then it wouldn't matter if his body regenerated. The lights are off, and nobody's home.

[Gemini476]

As for Zargon, I planned on merely punched his lights out while wearing a thinaun poison ring, entrapping his soul. Then it wouldn't matter if his body regenerated. The lights are off, and nobody's home.

It's easier than that, really.

Y'see, while Cynidecea was hardly touched upon at all in Elder Evils, B4 The Lost City has more to say about it. Not a whole lot more, but a bit.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lpL870wV2A4/R2P-02t4SWI/AAAAAAAABg4/sCiN_YKTEx4/s400/crossectionb4.jpg
So that pyramid in the upper right is where you fight Zargon, right? The Elder Evils version has him in the ground floor, which is incidentally also the floor that has the tunnel down to the Lost City. (I think it might be boarded up or something? Eh, a Wish gets around a lot.)

Y'see that lava pit to the left? That's where you toss the horn in. Same thing you did to off Zargon in the original module.

(Note that this crossection and also the maps for floors 6-10 are all absent from the retail PDFs available - for some reason the inset wasn't scanned properly along with the rest of the material. They were in the paper version, though, although not in B1-9. Yeah.)

[Ivanhoe]

There are a lot of caveats.

If you max out Hide and Move Silently and If your casters focus on Buffing and If you are allowed to sneak up to within 10 feet of your opponents and If you are in a Low to Mid Op party then they compare well to classes such as Scout and TWF Ranger.

After level 10 or so they begin to run out of options. Maxed out Jump, with you speed bumps, can cover some of the holes due to lack of Flight, but it doesn't cover all of them. Real stealth classes begin to pull ahead from this about this point also.

Level 13 is a disaster — Diamond Soul means you cannot be buffed easily, especially in combat. One Dispel Magic can kill you, assuming you had been buffed already.

If your casters focus on things like BFC, or even summoning, then your character will not be very useful from much earlier in the game — but then you are not in a Low-Mid OP party.

The optimal levels of Monk to take are: 0, 2, 4, 6 or 11; in that order.


Thank you for your ideas and suggestions!
I do not quite understand why level 13 is a "disaster", though. Spell resistance looks very useful to me.* Meanwhile, you can lower the SR with a standard action to get buffs. Many buffs are long-lasting, so can be done way ahead of combat. And a targeted dispel magic by the opponent at that level means one round used up for that opponent (if at all successful in dispelling), allowing the rest of the group to counterattack.

*edit though not necessarily more useful than having a bunch of non-monk class levels by that level :smallsmile:

[Malroth]

Monk SR does not effectively stop any meaningful spell offense. A completely unoptomized caster boss encounter is going to penetrate your spell resistance on a 6+ even assuming he's casting spells that allow SR (and the nastiest combat spells don't allow SR anyway) and hasn't bothered with CR boosting gear or feats. While your Party members face a 50% chance of wasting their action with helpful spells.

While it is true that many good buff spells have hours/lv duration this is also why targeted dispels are one of the most effective use for actions for traps/minions/familliars/quickened spells and why combat buffing is often necessary. Once in combat smart party members will ignore you for short term high power buffs or emergency heals because of the likelyhood that doing so will waste their turn.

[Ivanhoe]

Thanks for the fast comment, Malroth!
When the DM uses boss caster opponents that SR is really not going to be that hot. The enemy caster will, however, have to decide to target dispel the monk or use a targeted attack on her. Focusing on the monk twice in combat would be a big advantage for the rest of the group, I think.

[Boogastreehouse]

*


That's the PF version, even then he puts Wisdom 2nd. A couple more points of damage isn't going to win a fight, stunning usually means the fight is over — for one guy at least.

Ah. I think I had it in my head that we were talking about the Pathfinder Monk.


I'm afraid that's really a poor answer.

The easiest thing to fix in the Monk class's long list of problems is the amount of damage they deal out. One daily casting of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon, page 115) by your party Sorcerer/Wizard does the trick, far more effectively than devoting every character resource to increasing Strength. That includes starting with an 18 Strength via point buy, choosing a race with a Strength bonus, devoting every ability increment at levels 4, 8, 12, ... to Strength, and buying magic items which enhance Strength. Instead, that spell automatically increases in effectiveness as your Sorcerer/Wizard gains levels.

As I said above I thought this was Pathfinder, so I wasn't really thinking of the 3E Splats.

*

[nedz]

Thanks for the fast comment, Malroth!
When the DM uses boss caster opponents that SR is really not going to be that hot. The enemy caster will, however, have to decide to target dispel the monk or use a targeted attack on her. Focusing on the monk twice in combat would be a big advantage for the rest of the group, I think.

Malroth has answered your first question. Suppose you are facing multiple casters, or even relative lower level mook casters ? Dispel is a good counter to a character who relies on buffs to be effective — especially when two characters have to spend standard actions to replace one buff. Targeted Dispel can take down multiple buffs. Item based buffs are better, but you only have so many slots and only so much cash.

[Ivanhoe]

Malroth has answered your first question. Suppose you are facing multiple casters, or even relative lower level mook casters ? Dispel is a good counter to a character who relies on buffs to be effective — especially when two characters have to spend standard actions to replace one buff. Targeted Dispel can take down multiple buffs. Item based buffs are better, but you only have so many slots and only so much cash.

Also thanks to you, nedz. I'll add many dispelling caster opponents to the boss caster scenario as something to avoid with a monk character.

[ericgrau]

In my group they think monks are OP because of internet optimization forums... from a long long time ago.

I think the best "fix" - for everything really - is to not play high op, still play competently within the bounds of low op. And monks like buffs too.

[ShurikVch]

Actually, dragonborn keep their subtypes, and everything under the Living Construct subtype is likewise kept. Dragonborn lose all traits, except those which explicitly mentioned. FAQ is not a RAW


Beat the living crap out of the WtW, then shovel the unconscious worms into an enveloping pit filled with water. I planned on doing so using Metamorphosis to turn into an animated steamshovel. "Drowning dysfunction" aside, I can't see how it impair him in any meaningful way.
Can you remember "ultimate retort" to allip-drained Tarrasque? "But some unnamed cultist will found it and restore all the way back!" Please note: Kyuss have much more prominent cult then Tarrasque.
Also, attempt to drown WtW will do nothing to stop infestation. World will be dead anyway (except, maybe, a small isolated groups of high-level wormhunters :smallamused: )


Same with Atropus. No, not the same. You can swim to the Leviathan, but you can't JUMP INTO THE SPACE

[Vhaidara]

"Drowning dysfunction" aside, I can't see how it impair him in any meaningful way.
Can you remember "ultimate retort" to allip-drained Tarrasque? "But some unnamed cultist will found it and restore all the way back!" Please note: Kyuss have much more prominent cult then Tarrasque.
Also, attempt to drown WtW will do nothing to stop infestation. World will be dead anyway (except, maybe, a small isolated groups of high-level wormhunters :smallamused: )

Well, it is in the enveloping pit in your pocket, not the Material Plane. So I feel bad for everything in you pit.


No, not the same. You can swim to the Leviathan, but you can't JUMP INTO THE SPACE

Flight is mandatory at that level. Also, why can't you jump into space?

[ShurikVch]

Well, it is in the enveloping pit in your pocket, not the Material Plane. So I feel bad for everything in you pit. Enveloping pit? Are you kobold?


Flight is mandatory at that level. Also, why can't you jump into space?Flight - in vacuum? :smallconfused:
Please, calculate jump DC to jump into the space, then explain how to succeed it

[Vhaidara]

Enveloping pit? Are you kobold?

Ask Rubik, not my build.


Flight - in vacuum? :smallconfused:
Please, calculate jump DC to jump into the space, then explain how to succeed it

Since when does any source of flight in DnD care about a vacuum?

I forget the build, but someone got a jump bonus in the millions at sub level 10 once. Also, IIRC, there is no rule that stops you from jumping while in the air. You just double jump your way into space.

[Milo v3]

I forget the build, but someone got a jump bonus in the millions at sub level 10 once. Also, IIRC, there is no rule that stops you from jumping while in the air. You just double jump your way into space.

Though, that probably requires something like a feather fall item so that your jump speed is higher than fall speed.

[ShurikVch]

Ask Rubik, not my build.
IIRR, his build have access to Miracles at-will cost-free. Awakened toad can do it with such "Christmas tree" Don't found it. Apparently, it was from some other build. But also, there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15474863&postcount=732) is nothing about Enveloping pit


I forget the build, but someone got a jump bonus in the millions at sub level 10 once. Also, IIRC, there is no rule that stops you from jumping while in the air. You just double jump your way into space. Chuck E. Cheese (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1164211) killed by errata

[Rubik]

Dragonborn lose all traits, except those which explicitly mentioned. FAQ is not a RAWAnd subtype is explicitly mentioned. Living Construct is a subtype.


"Drowning dysfunction" aside, I can't see how it impair him in any meaningful way.Regeneration does not regenerate drowning damage.


Also, attempt to drown WtW will do nothing to stop infestation.Drowning kills regenerating creatures unless they have the ability to breathe underwater, do not breathe, or are explicitly protected somehow (such as via the necklace of adaptation).

I'd originally planned on drowning the WtW, but then I realized that once discorporated, the worms don't regenerate. Just one proper AoE effect will kill the worms, since they don't regenerate. Trample counts, easily, so just run back and forth over the same area multiple times.

Do note that the build has both a belt of battle and White Raven Tactics for just this thing.


No, not the same. You can swim to the Leviathan, but you can't JUMP INTO THE SPACEThe necklace of adaptation is easy to acquire, and it works in space just fine, but you're obviously not responding to what I said.

And flight is easy to acquire, with WBL. Note the mask of flying in my build. 13k for flight. The psychoactive skin also allows permanent and constant flight with ease.

[Fax Celestis]

Thank you for your ideas and suggestions!
I do not quite understand why level 13 is a "disaster", though. Spell resistance looks very useful to me.* Meanwhile, you can lower the SR with a standard action to get buffs. Many buffs are long-lasting, so can be done way ahead of combat. And a targeted dispel magic by the opponent at that level means one round used up for that opponent (if at all successful in dispelling), allowing the rest of the group to counterattack.

*edit though not necessarily more useful than having a bunch of non-monk class levels by that level :smallsmile:

"You can lower it as a standard action."

Meanwhile, your fighter buddy is killing people with his standard action. God knows what the wizard is doing.

[Psyren]

"You can lower it as a standard action."

Meanwhile, your fighter buddy is killing people with his standard action. God knows what the wizard is doing.

Buffing you :smallbiggrin:

(While berating you as a free action for needing to waste the standards of TWO party members...)

[ericgrau]

(@ ^ x 2) It's fine to disagree, but if you're going to quote someone at least read and address the whole quotation. This is why I mostly avoid these kinds of discussions. Too much passion. Anyway, carry on.

[aleucard]

Thank you for your ideas and suggestions!
I do not quite understand why level 13 is a "disaster", though. Spell resistance looks very useful to me.* Meanwhile, you can lower the SR with a standard action to get buffs. Many buffs are long-lasting, so can be done way ahead of combat. And a targeted dispel magic by the opponent at that level means one round used up for that opponent (if at all successful in dispelling), allowing the rest of the group to counterattack.

*edit though not necessarily more useful than having a bunch of non-monk class levels by that level :smallsmile:

A lot of the best buffs have low enough durations that you may be better off not using them pre-fight, and that ignores the issue of sometimes things being needed that just simply weren't accounted for during that time, or need to be reapplied lest a party-wipe commence. If there was an option for the one protected to be able to choose to auto-allow Harmless spells, then it'd be MUCH better. In its current incarnation, though, unless if standard actions are burnt mid-combat any form of healing has to wait until either after combat or when the one 'protected' is unconscious, and the 10-point window between living and dead which allows such is VERY small at levels where such things are relevant. If the only one using non-potionlike items, spells, or SLA's for healing (since potions count as if the drinker is the one casting the effect, even if it's shoved down their throat by someone else) is the guy with SR, though, this concern goes away, since casters always ignore their own SR. Such a thing is usually rare, though. There IS party-design space for such if the whole party plans around it, though. How much would it cost to either make potions use/day or give other relevant items SR:No?

[Curmudgeon]

Dragonborn lose all traits, except those which explicitly mentioned.
Well, that's only partly right.
Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype.
...
Other Racial Traits: You lose all other racial traits of your original race You lose all racial traits, but subtype traits are explicitly retained. Many of the living construct traits are repeated under the Warforged racial traits listing (Eberron Campaign Setting, pages 23-24); that just means there's redundancy. You wipe out everything listed there as a racial trait, but because you're directed to retain subtypes, that's a separate source for all the traits in common. Everything specified in the living construct subtype stays.

[Rubik]

(@ ^ x 2) It's fine to disagree, but if you're going to quote someone at least read and address the whole quotation. This is why I mostly avoid these kinds of discussions. Too much passion. Anyway, carry on.You edited for clarification? Who are you talking to? I haven't seen anyone named "^ x 2" anywhere, so your comment doesn't really "clarify" anything.

[Gemini476]

Flight - in vacuum? :smallconfused:

Man, I seriously love you for bringing that up.

Space hasn't had much elaboration in 3E, contrary to say AD&D where Spelljammer was a thing or 4E where Spelljammer was also kind of a thing or Basic where space travel very much was a thing.

However, there's at least one place where the rules have expanded upon space. Nailed To The Sky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/nailedToTheSky.htm).


Nailed to the sky actually places the target so far from the surface of the world and at such a speed that it keeps missing the surface as it falls back, so it enters an eternal orbit. Unless the target can magically fly or has some other form of non-physical propulsion available, the target is stuck until someone else rescues it. Even if the target can fly, the surface is 2 to 4 hours away, assuming a fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm) spell, which allows a maximum speed of 720 feet per round while descending. The target may not survive that long. Depending on the world where nailed to the sky is cast, conditions so far from its surface may be deadly. Deleterious effects include scorching heat, cold, and vacuum. Targets subject to these conditions take 2d6 points of damage each from heat or cold and 1d4 points of damage from the vacuum each round. The target immediately begins to suffocate.
(emphasis mine.)

Basically, if you have some method of magical flight you're A-OK. A Dragonborn's wings wouldn't count (unless they also happened to be a Dracolisk or something and thus had bony (Su) wings), but for pretty much every single other way for a Monk to get flight you're alright. (Except for Raptorans, that is.)

[Rubik]

Oh, and BTW, ShurikVch, note how many flurry attacks my monk has (11, not including AoOs and such), and realize that he can throw his body 80' as a throwing weapon for each one. 880' per round is not a bad speed at all. And that's not including any extra movement he can use with his swift actions (since they're mostly 1/day).

So he can "fly" at a speed of 880' by throwing his body into the air and aiming for a 5' space of his choice. Consider it a rapid-fire double-jump.

[Gemini476]

Oh, and BTW, ShurikVch, note how many flurry attacks my monk has (11, not including AoOs and such), and realize that he can throw his body 80' as a throwing weapon for each one. 880' per round is not a bad speed at all. And that's not including any extra movement he can use with his swift actions (since they're mostly 1/day).

So he can "fly" at a speed of 880' by throwing his body into the air and aiming for a 5' space of his choice. Consider it a rapid-fire double-jump.

...Who was it that had the insane Gravity Boots+Slow Fall combo, again? Because that was really impressive and also pretty much the best thing I've ever seen Slow Fall used for.

(For those unaware of it, gravity boots allow you to swap the direction of gravity. Falling speeds are pretty fast. Slow Fall at level 20 allows you to avoid all fall damage if you're within 5ft of a wall, and guess how far away the ground probably is when you start falling 90 degrees?)

[Fax Celestis]

...Who was it that had the insane Gravity Boots+Slow Fall combo, again? Because that was really impressive and also pretty much the best thing I've ever seen Slow Fall used for.

(For those unaware of it, gravity boots allow you to swap the direction of gravity. Falling speeds are pretty fast. Slow Fall at level 20 allows you to avoid all fall damage if you're within 5ft of a wall, and guess how far away the ground probably is when you start falling 90 degrees?)

Bwahahahaha.


"There is an art to flying, or rather a knack. Its knack lies in learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss. ... Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, that presents the difficulties."

[Curmudgeon]

... realize that he can throw his body 80' as a throwing weapon for each one.
...
So he can "fly" at a speed of 880' by throwing his body into the air and aiming for a 5' space of his choice.
I'm afraid that doesn't work quite as you think. A Monk with a Throwing Necklace of Natural Attacks will let a character throw their unarmed strike, but that doesn't mean their whole body goes along with it. Only the attacks are affected. So your Monk can throw their punches, kicks, or head butts, but not throw their knuckles, foot edges, or forehead. The contact surfaces of the Monk's body are used in their attacks, but the body parts are not themselves weapons.

You can certainly have a flying Monk; you just can't have it that way.

[Rubik]

I'm afraid that doesn't work quite as you think. A Monk with a Throwing Necklace of Natural Attacks will let a character throw their unarmed strike, but that doesn't mean their whole body goes along with it. Only the attacks are affected. So your Monk can throw their punches, kicks, or head butts, but not throw their knuckles, foot edges, or forehead. The contact surfaces of the Monk's body are used in their attacks, but the body parts are not themselves weapons.

You can certainly have a flying Monk; you just can't have it that way.There are no restrictions as to which body parts a monk can use in his unarmed strikes. Fists, elbows, feet, knees, head, body-slam -- all are usable. So hurl your body forward like Liu Kang doing his bicycle kick.

It's not like you'll leave body parts behind, after all.

[nedz]

Oh, and BTW, ShurikVch, note how many flurry attacks my monk has (11, not including AoOs and such), and realize that he can throw his body 80' as a throwing weapon for each one. 880' per round is not a bad speed at all. And that's not including any extra movement he can use with his swift actions (since they're mostly 1/day).

So he can "fly" at a speed of 880' by throwing his body into the air and aiming for a 5' space of his choice. Consider it a rapid-fire double-jump.

Ah, the Pin-Ball Wizard Monk, now you just need to make him Deaf, Dumb and Blind too.

[Curmudgeon]

There are no restrictions as to which body parts a monk can use in his unarmed strikes. Fists, elbows, feet, knees, head, body-slam -- all are usable.
Try striking with your liver or spleen. Go ahead; I'd like to see those used as exposed striking surfaces. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, while a Monk may be striking with their fists, elbows, knees, or feet, they're not throwing their whole body per D&D rules. No part of your body ever leaves your square when you attack, regardless of your reach or other attack characteristics. Attack with 20' reach and you don't provoke any AoOs for moving out of your square, because only your attacks use that reach while your body stays put.

[Segev]

Yet, without the Returning tag, you're (by the RAW) left without the weapon you threw. So...are they now without the striking surfaces?

[nerghull]

Try striking with your liver or spleen. Go ahead; I'd like to see those used as exposed striking surfaces. :smallbiggrin:



On the other hand, trying to body slam your ennemy Zangief-style *whitout* your spleen might be quite difficult as well.
Also, keep going, I love what your creating here, and my monk-playing-newbie-playmate too.

[Curmudgeon]

Yet, without the Returning tag, you're (by the RAW) left without the weapon you threw. So...are they now without the striking surfaces?
That's not specified, so each individual DM will have to make up some fluff to deal with the rules gap. The example creature used bite/claw/talon attacks, which are natural weapons with dedicated striking surfaces; the example used with the Necklace of Natural Attacks in that case had both Throwing and Returning. So unarmed strike (no dedicated striking surfaces) and Throwing but not Returning simply isn't covered.

Being able to throw an unarmed strike, which can be delivered using a plethora of striking surfaces, doesn't seem to limit the character's options for future strikes if those attacks don't "return". If you lose a bit of skin off your knuckles, you can still kick. I don't see any need to make up a house rule here. You're paying for a magical enhancement to be able to throw your melee attacks with 10' range increment. That's the end of it; you don't get short-distance flight for free.

[Rubik]

You know, that should've been 80' range increment, meaning 400' max, meaning 4,400' per round as a full-round attack action.

Oops. :smallamused:


Try striking with your liver or spleen. Go ahead; I'd like to see those used as exposed striking surfaces. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, while a Monk may be striking with their fists, elbows, knees, or feet, they're not throwing their whole body per D&D rules. No part of your body ever leaves your square when you attack, regardless of your reach or other attack characteristics. Attack with 20' reach and you don't provoke any AoOs for moving out of your square, because only your attacks use that reach while your body stays put.Don't the Core Rules say that things in the game act as things IRL do if the rules don't cover them?

I imagine that applies to "throwing one's body."

[HaikenEdge]

You know, that should've been 80' range increment, meaning 400' max, meaning 4,400' per round as a full-round attack action.

Oops. :smallamused:

Don't the Core Rules say that things in the game act as things IRL do if the rules don't cover them?

I imagine that applies to "throwing one's body."

Swanton bomb from really far away?

[Troacctid]

Don't the Core Rules say that things in the game act as things IRL do if the rules don't cover them?

I imagine that applies to "throwing one's body."

So in other words it's impossible?

[Deadline]

Try striking with your liver or spleen. Go ahead; I'd like to see those used as exposed striking surfaces. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, while a Monk may be striking with their fists, elbows, knees, or feet, they're not throwing their whole body per D&D rules. No part of your body ever leaves your square when you attack, regardless of your reach or other attack characteristics. Attack with 20' reach and you don't provoke any AoOs for moving out of your square, because only your attacks use that reach while your body stays put.

So, more like Dhalsim, then. His body parts stretch way out to reach his opponents?

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/visual/whatshot/dhalsim.jpg

[Rubik]

So in other words it's impossible?Sure.

Without magic. :smalltongue:

[Knaight]

Flight - in vacuum? :smallconfused:
Please, calculate jump DC to jump into the space, then explain how to succeed it

Flight in a vacuum is probably fine. The vast majority of flight is magical, and Nailed to the Sky explicitly notes that magical flight works in orbit. If the flight method is wings, being lighter than air, or I suppose something akin to a helicopter (though that seems very out of place) you're out of luck, but otherwise vacuum is a non issue. Plus if you get far enough out of the gravitational well of your planet - or in orbit, where gravity is still pretty high but you're in continuous free fall - you get new options for flight. Starting with the decanter of endless water and the bottle of air, neither of which outputs anywhere near enough lift to get off the ground, both of which are plenty when operating in what is effectively a minimal gravity environment.

As for jumping into space, I'm pretty sure it's doable. It involves TO movement shenanigans which are unlikely to show up in any game, but because of how movement rates show up in jump, and how there are ways to crank them way up, it's doable. You just need to get running at a few thousand miles per hour, and jump about a hundred miles up - I'm pretty sure there's a TO build around jumping that does that.

It's horribly impractical for an actual game though, so flight is the best option.

[Curmudgeon]

Don't the Core Rules say that things in the game act as things IRL do if the rules don't cover them?
More or less (it's really only on the Material Plane). In this case we've already got a rule whereby "natural reach" is used for your attacks, and you remain in your square (don't provoke AoOs for movement) while attacking outside your square regardless of how far your "natural reach" extends. Throwing your attacks just means you've got a different way of attacking outside your square, but nothing else changes.

[Rubik]

More or less (it's really only on the Material Plane). In this case we've already got a rule whereby "natural reach" is used for your attacks, and you remain in your square (don't provoke AoOs for movement) while attacking outside your square regardless of how far your "natural reach" extends. Throwing your attacks just means you've got a different way of attacking outside your square, but nothing else changes.So you disagree that throwing your entire body means you throw your entire body?

You're not going Giacomo on us, are you, Curmudgeon?

[WrathMage]

Ah I have to admit that way back when I was one of those DMs who looked at the Monk and said "oh ma gerd!!!! OP!!!!"

Then I actually read what they do, and developed some system mastery (with the help of my brother, my walking gaming encyclopedia), and quickly realised that they really really aren't. But at first glance that smorgasbord of powers, the big damage die, the awesome sounding (note this was at first glance) capstone all had me thinking these were ridiculous.

You live and learn I guess...:smallbiggrin:

[Curmudgeon]

So you disagree that throwing your entire body means you throw your entire body?
I disagree that throwing an unarmed strike means throwing your entire body. An unarmed strike can use any of a number of striking surfaces of your body; it doesn't use all of them at once. Getting power into your striking surface means you're pushing off from the main mass of your body, so that's staying in place (or actually moving slightly backward) when you hit. You can attack while moving, of course; it's just that D&D models these as special (not ordinary) attacks. Unless you're using an attack routine which says that you're moving (like a Charge), D&D says you stay in the same square.

[Malroth]

Curmudgeon, If a character were polymorphed into an animated dagger and used as a thrown weapon by another party member would they remain in their original square in the process?

[Curmudgeon]

Curmudgeon, If a character were polymorphed into an animated dagger and ...
Can't happen.
A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren’t affected by this spell.

[Deadline]

Can't happen.

Warforged character. Animated Object (Dagger). :smalltongue:

[Rubik]

Warforged character. Animated Object (Dagger). :smalltongue:Polymorph requires a living target and a living result. Metamorphosis, on the other hand...

[Talentless]

Can't happen.

Sure it can, unless I'm missing something with the following process. Cast PAO on the target turning them into a Dagger. Hand said Dagger to a Kensai or someone else who can imbue magic properties to their weapons, Then throw said Dagger.

That it is a multi-step process that either requires a Scroll+UMD or a Third party member to set up is not the point, the point is that a PAO'd party member into a 1+Throwing Dagger is possible, at which point the original question applies. Does the PAO'd party member leave the thrown square or not?

/edit just got swordsaged by rules specifications that I forgot about. That said, I'm still pretty sure some elaborate set-up can be achieved that can turn someone into a 1+Throwing Animated dagger at some point, with which the question of do they leave the attacking square or not applies.

[Deadline]

Polymorph requires a living target and a living result. Metamorphosis, on the other hand...

I'm pretty certain that since both warforged and animated objects are creatures, that satisfies your condition. But it's been a while since I dove into the pool of madness that was the alternate form/polymorph "clarifications" that I don't recall off the top of my head. But Alter Self certainly seems to work for something like this, so I'm not sure why Polymorph wouldn't.

[Rubik]

Even animated daggers aren't living. They're animated, but not living.

A psion uses Metamorphosis on his psicrystal, which he then throws.

I suppose he has automatic improved returning, since it stays in his space, even though he can hit things at range with it. And he doesn't even have to wait to throw it again.

[georgie_leech]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Curmudgeon is objecting on the "magical" part, not the living->non-living bit.

[Rubik]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Curmudgeon is objecting on the "magical" part, not the living->non-living bit.Well, animated objects are standard Construct creatures, and should be treated as such.

So, Metamorphosis a psicrystal into an animated object (dagger) and throw it. Would it leave your space? Because that's exactly the same idea.

[Deadline]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Curmudgeon is objecting on the "magical" part, not the living->non-living bit.

I'm pretty certain he was referring to Animated as in the weapon property (dancing, I think?), not to Animated as in an animated object. So, you know, an animated dagger, not an Animated (Dagger). :smalltongue:

And Rubik, Alter Self should work for my example, as it doesn't call out the "living" restriction (the size might be a problem though, guess you'll have to be an Animated dagger sized for a larger creature). Also, is the "living" restriction present in the errata that clarifies how polymorph effects work?

[Troacctid]

Not the same thing. Someone else is throwing the dagger; it's not throwing itself.

[Brookshw]

Personally I'm rather liking the idea of using your whole body while staying in your square, just, ya know, without your body. A new take on mind outside of body. Don't care if rules legit, its making me smile.

[Rubik]

Not the same thing. Someone else is throwing the dagger; it's not throwing itself.See: dvati.

Also: Fission.

Also: Body Outside Body.

Also: Astral Projection.

Also: I really don't see what possible logical difference it could make.

[Malroth]

I was refering to the creature "Animated Object (Dagger)" from a Warforged/Psicrystal who could fairly easily become one via a variety of techniques any of which would work for the discussion

[Troacctid]

Throwing a twin or duplicate of yourself is also not throwing yourself.

[137beth]

A lot of it is how it looks on the class table.
Consider animal companions. They actually scale, so each level at which your familiar advances could automatically be considered "not a dead level" (ignoring spells, of course, which obviously mean druids don't have dead levels. But the companion's scaling isn't listed in the class table, so it looks like it is just one class feature to a beginner.
On the other hand, every improvement to Slow Fall is listed on the monk table, so it looks like a bunch of class features. In the actual game, the minor number boosts the animal companion gets every few levels are no less significant than those the monk gets, yet one is listed in the table and the other isn't. The difference in presentation creates an illusion that the monk has more class features than it really does, and that spellcasters have significantly less than they do.
I wonder what would have happened if the sorcerer, rather than getting to choose spells, had had spells preassigned to it. If the sorcerer's class table had all of its spells listed as separate class features, I'd bet that a lot of beginners would look at the table and say

Wow, sorcerer is totally overpowered! It gets 43 'spell' class features and 25[ish, depending on how it was written] familiar class features!
If the sorcerer's class table said "Greater Teleport, Gate, Familiar Natural Armor +10, Familiar Intelligence 15", then no one would call it a dead level. Anyone who is new to the game sees a cluttered (or bare) class feature table before finding out what the class features actually do, so I think this influences their opinions of the classes.

[Deadline]

Personally I'm rather liking the idea of using your whole body while staying in your square, just, ya know, without your body. A new take on mind outside of body. Don't care if rules legit, its making me smile.

Spirit Walking!

http://www.desktopzilla.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Middle-earth-Shadow-of-Mordor-Spirit-Walk-Wallpaper-Photo.jpg

[Tengu_temp]

Did anyone mention yet that even in a low-optimization group, monks are simply not that good? Compare a monk to a simple fighter, and the latter will have better AC, HP, and attacks.


So, more like Dhalsim, then. His body parts stretch way out to reach his opponents?

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/visual/whatshot/dhalsim.jpg

I prefer rocket punch (http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/258/a/3/rocket_punch_by_seventh_flash-d2ypthr.jpg). Warforged monks only, otherwise it gets messy.

[Brookshw]

Spirit Walking!

http://www.desktopzilla.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Middle-earth-Shadow-of-Mordor-Spirit-Walk-Wallpaper-Photo.jpg

Pretty much except with the body afterwards lying there like a dead fish and the spirit scratching where its head would be thinking some combination of "well that didn't work as expected/fastest weight loss plan yet".

Throw you to a new you!

[Extra Anchovies]

I prefer rocket punch (http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/258/a/3/rocket_punch_by_seventh_flash-d2ypthr.jpg). Warforged monks only, otherwise it gets messy.

Ah yes, the Throwing Unarmed Strike. The first thing I thought when I read the Kensai class description was "I am so playing a monk/kensai and giving my fists the Dancing ability".

[HaikenEdge]

Ah yes, the Throwing Unarmed Strike. The first thing I thought when I read the Kensai class description was "I am so playing a monk/kensai and giving my fists the Dancing ability".

Sorry, but a part of me thought they (the fists) would be doing the Para Para, and that made me giggle.

[Seppo87]

If the sorcerer's class table said "Greater Teleport, Gate, Familiar Natural Armor +10, Familiar Intelligence 15", then no one would call it a dead level. Anyone who is new to the game sees a cluttered (or bare) class feature table before finding out what the class features actually do, so I think this influences their opinions of the classes.More importantly

New players want to kill stuff. They don't really realize what teleport does on a campaign scale because they evaluate spells based on a videogamish hack-n-slash approach
"so i can run from combat? I don't want to run. I want to blast things till they die"

Then they browse the spell list and select spells like "mage armor" and "magic missile" because +4 to AC and 1d4+1 damage are easy to understand while sleep, color spray and grease really sound not-so-manly

[ShurikVch]

Ah yes, the Throwing Unarmed Strike. The first thing I thought when I read the Kensai class description was "I am so playing a monk/kensai and giving my fists the Dancing ability".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiwiZJw7tbA
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[NotScaryBats]

Echoing what other people are saying, but I also want to add that many players don't think of a Fighter as a greatsword-wielding deathdealer, but rather a longsword and shield using tank. I know I didn't back when I first looked at 3.5

So, the Monk's 1d6+1 vs the Fighter's 1d8+3 isn't that big of a difference, and when the Monk can Flurry to do two 1d6+1 attacks... well, that's just flat out better.

Sure, the AC isn't as high, but the Monk's not even wearing armor, man!

[Knaight]

Echoing what other people are saying, but I also want to add that many players don't think of a Fighter as a greatsword-wielding deathdealer, but rather a longsword and shield using tank. I know I didn't back when I first looked at 3.5

So, the Monk's 1d6+1 vs the Fighter's 1d8+3 isn't that big of a difference, and when the Monk can Flurry to do two 1d6+1 attacks... well, that's just flat out better.

Sure, the AC isn't as high, but the Monk's not even wearing armor, man!

While having two attacks is nice, low level monk flurries have accuracy issues (which stick around, really), and those tend to be pretty visible. Plus, 2d6+2 only averages 9, where 1d8+3 averages 8.5 - though I will note that dice damage tends to look bigger than it is to newer players, unless they actually crunch the numbers.

[NotScaryBats]

Yeah, definitely. Two 1d20-1 attacks vs a 1d20+5 (Weap Foc) is clearly much worse, but for some reason that may boil down to, "But the Monk is doing it bare-handed!" people do frequently think Monk is OP.

[atemu1234]

For the sorcerer, literally just take a full casting PRC, then throw in the Acquire Familiar feat from Complete Arcane. Then yes, it is a dead level, unfortunately.

[Extra Anchovies]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiwiZJw7tbA
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Whatever that was, thank you for showing it to me.


Sorry, but a part of me thought they (the fists) would be doing the Para Para, and that made me giggle.

One of the best parts of having Dancing Unarmed Strikes is that you can get a lot of free attacks each round if you prep it right. A Dancing weapon can be loosed as a standard action to fight on its own for four rounds (shame it's not a free or swift action, that would be awesome). If you have any effects that grant extra standard actions, you can have up to five times your normal amount of attacks (assuming all your extra standard actions are used to renew the Dancing weapons). But it gets better.

Since any part of the monk's body can be used for unarmed strikes, you can (in theory) have Dancing headbutts, elbow strikes, kicks, whatever you want. Eyelid bashes, maybe. Nose jabs. Spleen slams. Tooth tornadoes. Anything.

Yes, even that. Sicko.

[Segev]

You are specifically considered not armed with the weapon while it is dancing, so you are no longer armed with your "unarmed strike" and thus could not use it, yourself. No, not even to release it to dance a second time.

[Extra Anchovies]

You are specifically considered not armed with the weapon while it is dancing, so you are no longer armed with your "unarmed strike" and thus could not use it, yourself. No, not even to release it to dance a second time.

Hm. And the monk can use any/all parts of their body for the unarmed strike so... They aren't armed with their own body?

Darn, now we've wrapped back around to out-of-body experience territory.

But then, one of the examples for the kensai's signature weapon is a monk imbuing two of his fists, so it's unclear whether you could loose only one at a time. Probably yes, since the monk can't ever add 1.5*Str on unarmed strikes (and is thus not using them two-handed).

[ShurikVch]

Hm. And the monk can use any/all parts of their body for the unarmed strike so... They aren't armed with their own body?

Darn, now we've wrapped back around to out-of-body experience territory. And now, you also reminded me about the Binding of Isaac (video game) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Binding_of_Isaac_%28video_game%29)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWB4hMaleqM


But then, one of the examples for the kensai's signature weapon is a monk imbuing two of his fists, so it's unclear whether you could loose only one at a time. Probably yes, since the monk can't ever add 1.5*Str on unarmed strikes (and is thus not using them two-handed). By RAW, you have one and only one Unarmed Strike, irregardless to how many ways to inflict it you have
The only exception is that one Barbarian ACF, in which case you will have two


Whatever that was, thank you for showing it to me.
It's from "The Diamond Arm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diamond_Arm)".
(On this forum, name of this comedy sound like something out of ToB :smallbiggrin: )

[Extra Anchovies]

By RAW, you have one and only one Unarmed Strike, irregardless to how many ways to inflict it you have
The only exception is that one Barbarian ACF, in which case you will have two

Wait. So a monk/kensai can enchant his entire body? Looks like Rubik's build doesn't necessarily need a warforged to make it happen (although warforged does contribute some tasty tasty immunities).

[Malroth]

so the most logical consequence of having a dancing unarmed strike is for the monks whole body to leave their control and start dancing around punching and kicking things on its own leaving their mind open for purely mental actions could be good for a Talshorasha build.

[Curmudgeon]

Wait. So a monk/kensai can enchant his entire body?
No, because the Kensai is required to individually enhance the different striking surfaces of their body. (Sort of like having to deal individually with the spikes in a spiked chain. :smallmad:)

[Extra Anchovies]

No, because the Kensai is required to individually enhance the different striking surfaces of their body. (Sort of like having to deal individually with the spikes in a spiked chain. :smallmad:)

So then there is no benefit to enhancing multiple parts of your body over enhancing just one part? Just put the enhancements on your forehead, use headbutts/head bashes for all your unarmed attacks (because the only times you'll be without use of a forehead for striking are times you wouldn't be able to UAS anyways, e.g. dead, paralyzed, or incorporeal), and you're set. Enhancing multiple striking surfaces is a waste of XP. Not much XP, but XP nonetheless.

[amalcon]

While having two attacks is nice, low level monk flurries have accuracy issues (which stick around, really), and those tend to be pretty visible.I'm not sure how this meme got started. A level 1-4 flurrying monk will actually score more hits per round on ACs less than 15+strength mod than a level 1-4 non-TWFing class with the same strength mod, and this ends up being most of the hits.

The monk's other problems (damage, defenses, mad, not actually getting the chance to flurry, etc) are of course even worse at level 1, because they don't have the magic items to partially mitigate them. They're still not *good*, but flurry does hit at low levels.

[Rubik]

irregardlessSorry, you just invalidated your entire argument. :smallwink:

[eggynack]

Sorry, you just invalidated your entire argument. :smallwink:
Ad hominem: It's OK when it's irregardless.


Also, why the hell does my spellchecker ping hominem, but just completely accept irregardless? That's ultra-stupid.

[Hamste]

Sorry, you just invalidated your entire argument. :smallwink:

Lor' luv a duck! This is da in'ernet, yew can't judge someone's argumen' because they miss-used words in their argumun'. Know what I mean? Yes, I had to use a translator to make this

[Tommy2255]

Every character gets better at hitting things as they level up. That is to say, everyone gets some BAB. Even wizards get better at hitting things as they level up, even though they may have had literally no need to physically whack someone in their entire career (depending on build). But where does damage come from?

For Wizards, damage comes from spells (or better yet, save or suck/die). But new players don't know all the spells off hand, the most iconic spells like Magic Missile are sometimes pretty low damage, and you have very few per day at low level. Same for Clerics, except that it's even less visible to new players because they think that in combat healing is worthwhile.

For Rogues, damage comes from sneak attack. And some new players even get the impression that that's OP because you can do it all day. But it is conditional and a lot of things are immune.

For Fighters and similar, damage comes from Power Attack. But new players often don't realize that Power Attack isn't optional, and even if they do, don't realize that it's likely going to be their main source of damage going forward. I have heard someone say that Monkey Grip is overpowered. This person had not taken Power Attack yet. Enough said.

And then you have Monks. Their damage comes from a class feature that lets them do damage. They are the *only* core class that just gets more damage automatically just by leveling up with no other system knowledge or build decisions needed. A Fighter at level 20, if given feats entirely arbitrarily, which is effectively what a novice build looks like, has the same damage per attack as he did at level 1, except for stat boosts and magic items. A 20th level Monk, with all feats burned on worthless ****, with no magic items, still has a non-negligible damage output (if he can hit).

So when you only have practical play experience at early levels (where Monks aren't too bad, the first 2 levels), and your only knowledge of high level is looking at the charts for every class, of course Monk is going to look awesome.

[emeraldstreak]

because http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18064507&postcount=32

and I can say this despite being the one who created the best monk build, based on 2d10 optimization, for challenges against the other martial classes

[JBPuffin]

*VoP Quote*

Okay, crazy character idea just happened: Monk whose charity work involves leading an army of people he saves from worse threats. Every share of his treasure goes to the people he just saved, then those people join him on his epic world-spanning quest.

Also, I also think most people who think "Monk is OP" believe it because they lack the experience or knowledge to know better. Paladins, though...:smallwink:.

[atemu1234]

Okay, crazy character idea just happened: Monk whose charity work involves leading an army of people he saves from worse threats. Every share of his treasure goes to the people he just saved, then those people join him on his epic world-spanning quest.

Also, I also think most people who think "Monk is OP" believe it because they lack the experience or knowledge to know better. Paladins, though...:smallwink:.

In low-OP settings, VoP monk can work reasonably well.

[emeraldstreak]

VoP never works well.


VoP is the equivalent of waving a white flag while yelling "I don't understand anything about optimization in 3.5"

[eggynack]

VoP never works well.


VoP is the equivalent of waving a white flag while yelling "I don't understand anything about optimization in 3.5"
It's alright on a druid. Basically the perfect intersection of a lack of item requirements, solid exalted feats, and incentives to not use items. You still do better with proper itemization, but you're not a crazy amount worse.

[emeraldstreak]

For Fighters and similar, damage comes from Power Attack. But new players often don't realize that Power Attack isn't optional, and even if they do, don't realize that it's likely going to be their main source of damage going forward. I have heard someone say that Monkey Grip is overpowered. This person had not taken Power Attack yet. Enough said.

And then you have Monks. Their damage comes from a class feature that lets them do damage. They are the *only* core class that just gets more damage automatically just by leveling up with no other system knowledge or build decisions needed. A Fighter at level 20, if given feats entirely arbitrarily, which is effectively what a novice build looks like, has the same damage per attack as he did at level 1, except for stat boosts and magic items. A 20th level Monk, with all feats burned on worthless ****, with no magic items, still has a non-negligible damage output (if he can hit).



You hit the nail on the head. People who have problems with Fighters generally don't understand how to optimize on Power Attack. People who have problems with Monks generally don't understand how to optimize on their 2d10 damage die.

[emeraldstreak]

It's alright on a druid. Basically the perfect intersection of a lack of item requirements, solid exalted feats, and incentives to not use items. You still do better with proper itemization, but you're not a crazy amount worse.

I agree Druids are least hindered by VoP because of their general awesomeness. Even so, in a normal campaign gold gives you the flexibility to go to the shop and item customize specifically for the challenges you're about to face on top of the standard issue items for your class.

[eggynack]

I agree Druids are least hindered by VoP because of their general awesomeness. Even so, in a normal campaign gold gives you the flexibility to go to the shop and item customize specifically for the challenges you're about to face on top of the standard issue items for your class.
On a druid, I think more in terms of stuff like lesser metamagic rods of extend, two out of three of the trappings of the beast, a ring of counterspells, and so on. Y'know, druid/caster specific stuff instead of stuff customized for challenges. After all, you already have spells and wild shape forms to customize you for challenges. Your items should be making you better at doing those things as a result.

As I mentioned, you also get solid feat value, probably picking up an actual feat value of around five or six from the exalted feats. Factored into that calculation is exalted wild shape and exalted companion as a full feat each, words of creation at a bit over half a feat, with nymph's kiss hovering around a half as well, stuff like touch of golden ice and sanctify natural attack and non-negligible feat fractions, and everything else maybe adding up to a feat if you're lucky. Subtracting out the two feat payment for VoP in the first place, you end up with a net feat gain of maybe three or four. That's really where you need to be picking up value with VoP, if you're picking it up at all, as you can get all of the other important VoP stuff with items trivially.

[Gemini476]

Vow of Poverty is decent on a Druid. More specifically, it's good on a Druid with Exalted Companion. Even more specifically, as a feat on your Exalted Companion.

Although even that's arguable - there's no real agreement on whether or not it's worth giving up the ability to put equipment on your animal companion. It's certainly a fun trick, though, and lets you keep the wealth to yourself since animal companions aren't offered a share of the loot.

[Milo v3]

Vow of Poverty is decent on a Druid. More specifically, it's good on a Druid with Exalted Companion. Even more specifically, as a feat on your Exalted Companion.

Although even that's arguable - there's no real agreement on whether or not it's worth giving up the ability to put equipment on your animal companion. It's certainly a fun trick, though, and lets you keep the wealth to yourself since animal companions aren't offered a share of the loot.

.... I now really want to put Vow of Poverty on a t-rex or rust monster.

[Gemini476]

.... I now really want to put Vow of Poverty on a t-rex or rust monster.

A Celestial T-Rex. It gives him Int 3 and makes his alignment Good.

[Divide by Zero]

VoP never works well.


VoP is the equivalent of waving a white flag while yelling "I don't understand anything about optimization in 3.5"

I've always wanted to play a gestalt binder//incarnate with VoP. Between the two you can hit pretty much all of the key magic item effects, and as a bonus you don't have to worry about chakra binds interfering with your gear.

Still less powerful than actual magic items, probably, but it's gonna be hard to find a more item-independent character who isn't a full caster.

[Talakeal]

A Celestial T-Rex. It gives him Int 3 and makes his alignment Good.

Can I name him Deus Rex Machina, please?

[ShurikVch]

Sorry, you just invalidated your entire argument. :smallwink:
Irregardless (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless)

Irregardless is a word commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective, which has caused controversy since the early twentieth century, though the word appeared in print as early as 1795. Deal with it! :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

Irregardless (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless)
Deal with it! :smalltongue:
It's just such a crappy word, is the problem. I usually take a descriptive view of linguistics over a prescriptive view, but I make an exception for that one.

[nedz]

VoP never works well.


VoP is the equivalent of waving a white flag while yelling "I don't understand anything about optimization in 3.5"

You've obviously never played in a game without loot — yes, I know :smallsigh:

[Aquillion]

Okay, crazy character idea just happened: Monk whose charity work involves leading an army of people he saves from worse threats. Every share of his treasure goes to the people he just saved, then those people join him on his epic world-spanning quest.Alternatively: Have your party wizard be Timmy, the Starving Orphan Wizard. Donate all your income to him. Timmy, in turn, is (practically speaking) actually poor, despite being a high-level adventurer, because he's a heroic sort and spends most of his money and resources on stuff to help him continue to adventure and help others (in other words, adventurer stuff) -- just ensure your wizard doesn't actually own a home, say. He's homeless! Yes, his spellbook is worth several times the gross national product of the entire kingdom, but the fact that he spends that much on fighting evil without even buying a home for himself shows how dedicated he is.

Clearly his poverty makes him a valid person to donate all your stuff to as part of your VoP.

[Extra Anchovies]

Clearly his poverty makes him a valid person to donate all your stuff to as part of your VoP.

Also note that the Poverty section of BoED says that the character has to give away "a majority" of their loot. Doesn't say how much of a majority. So in a three-person party, you could give 51% of your loot to mr. starving orphan wizard, and the other 49% to the third character. Even if you don't have a PC who can count as impoverished, the rest of the party can still divide 49% of your loot between themselves.

Also, VoP might work well on a cohort. Not sure, though.

[thefirecrack3r]

Why are we not discussing armed monks? Who wear armor and other enchanted equipment? Do they still fall behind? Even when they have super potent magical items hanging off of every inch of their body like a fighter would? It seems like this turned into why a VoP monk sucks. No ones even discussing how to optimize a monk with magical gear.

Also Fist of the Forest is a pretty cool prestige class for a VoP monk. It further boosts the unarmed strikes and adds their CON modifier to their AC as well and increases movement speed again.

[eggynack]

Why are we not discussing armed monks? Who wear armor and other enchanted equipment? Do they still fall behind? Even when they have super potent magical items hanging off of every inch of their body like a fighter would? It seems like this turned into why a VoP monk sucks. No ones even discussing how to optimize a monk with magical gear.
Do they still fall behind what? If you hyper-optimize gear in a way that tends to come across as cheesy (the whole body as weapon thing, mostly), then you can keep up alright with melee folks. Certain ACF's help a lot also. You're not really going to compete all that well with tier three classes though, and anything higher than that is going to just blow you out of the water on every level.

[emeraldstreak]

Why are we not discussing armed monks? Who wear armor and other enchanted equipment? Do they still fall behind? Even when they have super potent magical items hanging off of every inch of their body like a fighter would? It seems like this turned into why a VoP monk sucks. No ones even discussing how to optimize a monk with magical gear.


Fall behind whom? Full casters? Of course, because weapons are irrelevant to the sources of caster dominance. Fighters? The unarmed strike is good enough when optimized for damage die. Monks don't need gold for weapons/armor, they need it for magic buffs.

[emeraldstreak]

Also note that the Poverty section of BoED says that the character has to give away "a majority" of their loot. Doesn't say how much of a majority. So in a three-person party, you could give 51% of your loot to mr. starving orphan wizard, and the other 49% to the third character. Even if you don't have a PC who can count as impoverished, the rest of the party can still divide 49% of your loot between themselves.


Not a bad point per se but people tend to overlook party benefits when discussing the performace of a single class.

[Extra Anchovies]

A monk who fights with weapons while wearing armor falls somewhere between aristocrat and fighter. So they still don't go up a tier.

[nerghull]

Why not both ? The scorpion kama (MIC) is a weapon using the damage die of the monk's natural attack. Sadly it's not bludgeoing, so no greater mighty wallop.

[Rubik]

It's just such a crappy word, is the problem. I usually take a descriptive view of linguistics over a prescriptive view, but I make an exception for that one.And it also means the opposite of both "irrespective" and "regardless." Which is like saying "I could care less," since that means you could care less, not that you couldn't, which just makes you sound...

...less than optimally intellectual.


Why are we not discussing armed monks? Who wear armor and other enchanted equipment? Do they still fall behind? Even when they have super potent magical items hanging off of every inch of their body like a fighter would? It seems like this turned into why a VoP monk sucks. No ones even discussing how to optimize a monk with magical gear.Oh, optimally equipped monks can and do kick all kinds of arse. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)


Do they still fall behind what? If you hyper-optimize gear in a way that tends to come across as cheesy (the whole body as weapon thing, mostly), then you can keep up alright with melee folks. Certain ACF's help a lot also. You're not really going to compete all that well with tier three classes though, and anything higher than that is going to just blow you out of the water on every level.I'm fairly sure that my Tippy monk keeps up with T3s just fine.

[Talakeal]

And it also means the opposite of both "irrespective" and "regardless." Which is like saying "I could care less," since that means you could care less, not that you couldn't, which just makes you sound...

...less than optimally intellectual.

Unless of course they are being sarcastic....

The english language sucks.

[eggynack]

I'm fairly sure that my Tippy monk keeps up with T3s just fine.
Maybe some. Probably depends on the tier three.

[emeraldstreak]

Why not both ? The scorpion kama (MIC) is a weapon using the damage die of the monk's natural attack. Sadly it's not bludgeoing, so no greater mighty wallop.

That's an interesting point because there are many other ways to increase damage size.

Moreover, a quick Google search found this http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?305067-Mighty-Wallop-for-slashing-piercing-weapons

[ArqArturo]

A monk who fights with weapons while wearing armor falls somewhere between aristocrat and fighter. So they still don't go up a tier.

Isn't the Shou Disciple exactly this?.

[Curmudgeon]

Isn't the Shou Disciple exactly this?.
Not really. Light armor does not interfere with Shou Disciple class abilities, but it screws over any Monk abilities (like AC Bonus and Fast Movement) which are dependent on not wearing armor. Generally the AC a Shou Disciple can get from light armor is worse than what they'd get from the Monk AC Bonus. And then dropping way down to their racial base speed is just insult added to injury.