Gestalting Gestalted Gestalts

[Threadnaught]

And Rudisplork.


The players and their characters.

That ******* Druid and his planned Crusader//Ranger, he no longer wants to split his time between melee and ranged combat, but he does fancy going into Two Weapon Fighting. Main deal is still about tanking and healing. He's still being vague about what he wants, but there's a start, I'm going to attempt to convince him into making an account so he can tell you fine people what he wants himself.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
I don't think he realizes how dangerous Atropus, Pandorym and Zargon are to his character.

MetaMyconid and his Necropolitan Domovoi Dread Necromancer//Wizard. He's already come to me asking if he could attempt to abuse something or some such nonsense I didn't pay attention to. He seems to be the only player who understands exactly how dangerous the Campaign will be compared to the current one, or the ones they're running.
He's seen me do some Wizarding and he has experience with Dread Necro, if he wants any help, he will post. He's probably going to be the most powerful character in the party.


PsionLover, I dunno, third guy who really likes Psions who doesn't have an account either. He's wanting to go Thri-kreen (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Feberronunlimited.wikidot.com% 2Fthri-kreen&h=WAQGWbqdq) Fighter//Psychic WarriorMonk. He was asking about the Winged Template, which I'm reluctant to allow because of the ECL limit, but it's better as something to keep MetaMyconid in check.
He also wants to use this Bloodline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?203394-3-5e-Bloodline-Hero-Born-%28PEACH%29), should I let him, or is there a similar one that doesn't give him the Class Featues of a third Class?

And the guy who likes Psionics, doesn't like the idea of using Tome of Battle Classes. So like me with Psionics. :smallbiggrin:
Any alternate Class suggestions for any of the players, should be made with this in mind.


I will link all of my players to this thread so they can get a little extra help with their characters, and if MetaMyconid wants any help, he can ask for it.

Edit: MetaMyconid informed me of a potential change to a character.

[ekarney]

Excellent! I have somewhere to Rudisplork create a balanced character for the needs of this campaign. :P

So, feat choices, I'm currently working it around Domovoi Domain Wizard (Either Transmutation or Abjuration) // Dread Necromancer.
We've been allowed one trait, and 2 feats so I have quick (Up for discussion), Murky Eyed and Non combatant.
Feat choices are Improved Initiative, Spell Focus: Transmutation, Spell Penetration and that one that's up for debate, Collegiate Wizard.
I'm taking said feat due to my companions not being overly magical and as such we're probably not going to have too much time to hunt for more scrolls and whatnot.

Also what are the rules for bonus SPD? My intelligence modifier is +6.

[Bad Wolf]

With your high Intelligence score MetaMyconid, Spell Mastery might be a good choice, if you're worried about losing your spellbook. Collegiate Wizard is definitely a good feat.

The rules for bonus spells are in the Player's Handbook, page 8.

Also, what/who/when is Rudisplork?

EDIT: Oops. Fixed.

[Leviting]

I think that Rudisplork is "cheating" optimization of ridiculousness.

Regarding the incoming Elder Evils, I can say with certainty that if a monk can take those guys down, anyone can. Unless Pandorym gets his body back. Or Atropus crashes. That would be bad.

[Jeff the Green]

I really don't think there's any possible synergy between Crusader and TWF. The one favors heavy armor and standard-action strikes; the other high Dexterity and full attacks. I suppose you could go with shield bashing, but even they you're better off dipping Fighter 3 for Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, and Agile Shield Fighter.

You might be able to do something interesting with Prestige Ranger, though. Cloistered Cleric with the animal domain to get all ranger spells on your list. And they've got some nifty ones. Costs three crappy feats, though.

Otherwise, a few levels of Knight wouldn't go amiss. The 3rd and 5th level abilities make it harder to tumble through Thicket of Blades and the 4th and 9th level abilities make wearing armor less of a pain.


With your high Intelligence score MetaMyconid, Spell Mastery might be a good choice, if you're worried about losing your spellbook. Collegiate Wizard is definitely a good feat.

The rules for bonus spells are in the Player's Handbook, page 8.

PDF form: http://www.aegisoft.be/costa/data/roleplay/D&D%203.5%20-%20Players%20Handbook%20%5BOEF%5D.pdf

Also, what/who/when is Rudisplork?

Also available in non-copyright-violating form here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores).

(Speaking of, Forum Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1). Like Letters from the Earth, it's not required reading, but it should be.)

[Threadnaught]

All players have been linked, that ******* Druid doesn't seem all that interested, but if he does come here, I'm hoping someone will either. Offer some suggestions on how to maximize healing via TWF, as it states in Martial Spirit "every successful melee attack", or an alternative to Ranger for the party healer.
MetaMyconid can heal himself any time he wants by touching himself, but would have no beneficial effect on the other PCs unless they opt in, I doubt they will.


I've got a custom set of Maneuver, Stance and even Spell Cards to keep track of, that should be ready any time now. He'll have no problem keeping track of his Maneuvers, since I'll be doing most of it for him. Depending on the Spells MetaMyconid chooses, I'll be able to keep track of those the same way.


Third player hasn't mentioned anything about whether or not he's changed his mind on which Classes he wants, though there is that Bloodline to discuss.

[heavyfuel]

I really don't think there's any possible synergy between Crusader and TWF. The one favors heavy armor and standard-action strikes; the other high Dexterity and full attacks. I suppose you could go with shield bashing, but even they you're better off dipping Fighter 3 for Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, and Agile Shield Fighter.

While I agree that TWF and Crusader lack synergy, Crusaders want a decent Dex because then they can keep enemies still with Combat Reflexes, Stand Still and Thicket of Blades.

[Threadnaught]

While I agree that TWF and Crusader lack synergy, Crusaders want a decent Dex because then they can keep enemies still with Combat Reflexes, Stand Still and Thicket of Blades.

Well it does depend, his stated reason for going Crusader, and why I suggested the Class. Is that he wanted to tank and heal.

The easiest way to heal with a Crusader is with the Stance and the more attacks that hit per round, the more he can heal.
I'm hoping both players of the less optimized characters will make an account so they can make a character that matches their concepts better than what they currently have.


Guy making the Thri'kreen, he seems to want as many Attacks per round as possible. He's chosen Thri'kreen as his Race and Fighter//Monk as his Classes, he really does just want to be constantly Full Attacking by the looks of it. I hope to have new information soon, whether I have to personally post it here or not.

[ekarney]

Thanks guys, I might swap out spell penetration for spell mastery, then take SP next feat.

Now for spells, I have my DN list sorted (Obviously ahaha)
But I have NO idea what to put on my Wizard list, also re: spell mastery, it's the same spells every day right? so it effectively adds those spells to a SPD list similar to a spontaneous caster (I've never played a Wizard before)
Edit: Actually, it doesn't seem worth it for level one spells, would it be worth it taking it multiple times though?

And I actually do have a physical copy of the PHB, but I never thought to look in it, probably because all of my casters have been spontaneous and one Runescarred Berserker.

Another question, more open ended this time and slightly less to do with rudisplorking.
I've decided my Domovoi is essentially going to be a Loli (NOT Ero-Loli, this is a DnD campaign and my RP skills aren't at that level yet), have her walking around in a lacy dress with puffed sleeves, and have an amount of complexes that would cripple an ordinary person. So basically the little sister in every anime/manga ever. Thoughts and opinions on it?


Double edit: Thri-Kreen is literally all about having as many attacks as possible. That's his entire battleplan.
Also he wants to tank, when he has less health than the Wizard.
Not that I plan on tanking, I'll have minions for that.

[Threadnaught]

That ******* Druid has decided to forego Ranger as his second Class and chosen Rogue instead. He still wants to try TWF though, so he'd keep one of the weaknesses of the build he had planned for. And as is also par for the course, he wants advice from me about his build, but I have no idea what he could use, so I am once again condemned to act as his proxy here.


Psionlover says he's making an account, so hopefully he'll be able to request help.

[Circa]

PsionLover here.

I'll be honest- I haven't faced the Elder Evils before. When Thread said "make a gestalt for this really hard campaign" I just looked up some decent class combinations and a template.

And then the creativity hit me.

Imagine: A six foot tall mantis warrior, hideous creature with no real knowledge of typical social structure, rules or regulations, looking after a small girl who also happens to be a powerful necromancer and wizard.

I geared towards Dexterity and Wisdom to get the most out of my AC and improve reflex and will saves. The theory is that with five natural weapons (1d4 each) plus unarmed strike (1d6), and the Weapon Finesse feat, all I'll need to do is try to hit to deal damage. I took the Winged template for added maneuverability (and now he's a beetle!) which bumps his flight speed up to 60ft before I get any additional movement from Monk.
Thread's telling me it's not good enough. I'm going to get my little beetle butt handed to me before we even get anywhere in the campaign. What do you guys think?

[Extra Anchovies]

PsionLover here.

I'll be honest- I haven't faced the Elder Evils before. When Thread said "make a gestalt for this really hard campaign" I just looked up some decent class combinations and a template.

And then the creativity hit me.

Imagine: A six foot tall mantis warrior, hideous creature with no real knowledge of typical social structure, rules or regulations, looking after a small girl who also happens to be a powerful necromancer and wizard.

I geared towards Dexterity and Wisdom to get the most out of my AC and improve reflex and will saves. The theory is that with five natural weapons (1d4 each) plus unarmed strike (1d6), and the Weapon Finesse feat, all I'll need to do is try to hit to deal damage. I took the Winged template for added maneuverability (and now he's a beetle!) which bumps his flight speed up to 60ft before I get any additional movement from Monk.
Thread's telling me it's not good enough. I'm going to get my little beetle butt handed to me before we even get anywhere in the campaign. What do you guys think?

I think there always has to be at least one player who favors the Rule of Cool over the Rule of Optimization. Rock on, you crazy Thri-Kreen.

Also, I think you'll at least be good enough to survive, while the Dread Necro//Wizard rips your enemies to shreds. And you'll look cool doing it.

[WhamBamSam]

PsionLover here.

I'll be honest- I haven't faced the Elder Evils before. When Thread said "make a gestalt for this really hard campaign" I just looked up some decent class combinations and a template.

And then the creativity hit me.

Imagine: A six foot tall mantis warrior, hideous creature with no real knowledge of typical social structure, rules or regulations, looking after a small girl who also happens to be a powerful necromancer and wizard.

I geared towards Dexterity and Wisdom to get the most out of my AC and improve reflex and will saves. The theory is that with five natural weapons (1d4 each) plus unarmed strike (1d6), and the Weapon Finesse feat, all I'll need to do is try to hit to deal damage. I took the Winged template for added maneuverability (and now he's a beetle!) which bumps his flight speed up to 60ft before I get any additional movement from Monk.
Thread's telling me it's not good enough. I'm going to get my little beetle butt handed to me before we even get anywhere in the campaign. What do you guys think?


I think there always has to be at least one player who favors the Rule of Cool over the Rule of Optimization. Rock on, you crazy Thri-Kreen.

Also, I think you'll at least be good enough to survive, while the Dread Necro//Wizard rips your enemies to shreds. And you'll look cool doing it.Monks are good at not dying and looking cool doing it. They're less good at a lot of other things, but as Extra Anchovies said, you might be able to scrape by.

If you want to kick it up a notch, however, this forum can help.

Any particular reason you're not going for a Tash build given your fondness for Psionics? Monk 2/PsyWar X or Monk 2/Ardent X loses the speed bonus, but that doesn't really stack with anything due to being an enhancement bonus, and you keep almost everything else of importance while also getting nifty things like Pounce. Monk 2/PsyRogue X has a weaker power list and is Int based rather than Wis based, but you'd get some Sneak Attack for your full attack routine and could get Psionic Lion's Charge through Expanded Knowledge.

Swordsage with MWF, Shadow Blade, Insightful Strikes (Tiger Claw), a Mouthpick Spiked Chain, and four shortswords is my default thri-kreen recommendation, but Threadnaught said you don't like using ToB.

I seem to remember that Threadnaught is giving you some free LA. Will that cover Thri-kreen and winged, or do you have some extra? Do RHD/LA go on both sides of the gestalt, or just one?

[Threadnaught]

Monks are good at not dying and looking cool doing it. They're less good at a lot of other things, but as Extra Anchovies said, you might be able to scrape by.

While I am out for blood, I do believe that these wings would provide a distinct advantage early on and the AC may be vital for the few levels before their defences come online.


If you want to kick it up a notch, however, this forum can help.

Optimization note, I'm allowing the Bloodline listed above. It may be useful for the discussion.


Threadnaught said you don't like using ToB.

Yeah, nothing to do with an opinion about the book, but entirely because he has little to no understanding of the book and doesn't want to play a Class or subsystem he doesn't understand. He wants to learn about it first and ToB is very low on his priorities.



I seem to remember that Threadnaught is giving you some free LA. Will that cover Thri-kreen and winged, or do you have some extra? Do RHD/LA go on both sides of the gestalt, or just one?

ECL limit is supposed to be 5, Winged Thri-kreen Fighter1//Monk1 is ECL 7. Excused for rule of cool and because.
Circa and that ******* Druid decided on a Template with Wings (Winged, Half-Celestial), while the biggest threat to the questline, MetaMyconid, is rocking the Necropolitan Template on a Domovoi. You can tell which one's the power gamer can't you? :smallamused:

[Jeff the Green]

Necropolitan Template on a Domovoi

Just checking, but you know that's not technically kosher, right? Domovoi are fey and the necropolitan template can only be applied to humanoids and monstrous humanoids.

So do the thri-kreen RHD just count as LA or does the x 1/y 1 thri-kreen have 3 HD?

[ekarney]

Just checking, but you know that's not technically kosher, right? Domovoi are fey and the necropolitan template can only be applied to humanoids and monstrous humanoids.

So do the thri-kreen RHD just count as LA or does the x 1/y 1 thri-kreen have 3 HD?


We've been getting the befits of RHD, including more HD, so I'd assume so.

Actually. I don't even know. Thread, because of the +5LA freedom, how much exp until next HD for me?
Am I going 3-4? or 5-6, or 1-2?

And hopefully Threads cool with me doing that, otherwise I just lost a whole heap of great stuff.
Otherwise I have some research to do, you know, research like making myself humanoid.

[Jeff the Green]

I don't know of any way to make a fey humanoid (at least, not without losing all of their abilities), but gravetouched ghoul can be applied to fey. It probably knocks up against the ECL limit, though.

[ekarney]

I don't know of any way to make a fey humanoid (at least, not without losing all of their abilities), but gravetouched ghoul can be applied to fey. It probably knocks up against the ECL limit, though.

Yeah, RHD + LA + HD gives me my 5 ECL of grace, I mean being undead isn't integral to my build but necropolitan was just LA +0 and I asked of id be allowed to start with it, since we only have level 1 gold, and that was cool
So it was more of a "well why not" decision.

Worked out cheaper than getting tomb tainted soul for healing.

I wonder, would getting animate dread warrior cast on me, and then having my companions kill the caster work?

[Threadnaught]

Just checking, but you know that's not technically kosher, right? Domovoi are fey and the necropolitan template can only be applied to humanoids and monstrous humanoids.

So do the thri-kreen RHD just count as LA or does the x 1/y 1 thri-kreen have 3 HD?

Necropolitan Domovoi is what I'd call an oversight. Thank you for pointing it out..
And bringing down MetaMyconid's power level. I can't believe I forgot about the Humanoid/Monstrous Humanoid limitation.


RHD is given as actual levels, Domovoi and Thri'kreen start with 3HD.


Yes, Gravetouched Ghoul is +2LA, he's already at ECL5.

[Circa]

Any particular reason you're not going for a Tash build given your fondness for Psionics? Monk 2/PsyWar X or Monk 2/Ardent X loses the speed bonus, but that doesn't really stack with anything due to being an enhancement bonus, and you keep almost everything else of importance while also getting nifty things like Pounce. Monk 2/PsyRogue X has a weaker power list and is Int based rather than Wis based, but you'd get some Sneak Attack for your full attack routine and could get Psionic Lion's Charge through Expanded Knowledge.

Swordsage with MWF, Shadow Blade, Insightful Strikes (Tiger Claw), a Mouthpick Spiked Chain, and four shortswords is my default thri-kreen recommendation, but Threadnaught said you don't like using ToB.

I seem to remember that Threadnaught is giving you some free LA. Will that cover Thri-kreen and winged, or do you have some extra? Do RHD/LA go on both sides of the gestalt, or just one?

See, my not understanding most of this is partly the reason I'm avoiding ToB so far. Monk//Fighter is just really feat friendly. I could probably swap out Fighter for something from ToB if I do a bit of reading, but I'm trying to avoid Psionics just for this character at least, since I've got tw- three psionic classes from other campaigns. And also Thread doesn't like psionics.
As for the free LA, I'm ECL7 right now between the MHD and my LA, but Thread was kind enough to adjust it so I'll only take a penalty as if I were 2ECL higher than the rest of the party (since 5 was our soft limit).

[Threadnaught]

Thread doesn't like psionics.

I'm okay with others using it, I just struggle to comprehend the system and have no desire to build a character using the system unless absolutely necessary.

Though I'm happy to see you play something else.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

PsionLover here.

I'll be honest- I haven't faced the Elder Evils before. When Thread said "make a gestalt for this really hard campaign" I just looked up some decent class combinations and a template.

And then the creativity hit me.

Imagine: A six foot tall mantis warrior, hideous creature with no real knowledge of typical social structure, rules or regulations, looking after a small girl who also happens to be a powerful necromancer and wizard.

I geared towards Dexterity and Wisdom to get the most out of my AC and improve reflex and will saves. The theory is that with five natural weapons (1d4 each) plus unarmed strike (1d6), and the Weapon Finesse feat, all I'll need to do is try to hit to deal damage. I took the Winged template for added maneuverability (and now he's a beetle!) which bumps his flight speed up to 60ft before I get any additional movement from Monk.
Thread's telling me it's not good enough. I'm going to get my little beetle butt handed to me before we even get anywhere in the campaign. What do you guys think?

You might want to look into a Tashalatora PsyWar//Totemist, if this is your goal. Of course, if you want to go crazy with the natural attacks, you'll find you're better off being some kind of Aberration or Dragon, so you can take the Rapidstrike line of feats. Is there a template (or are there templates) you could throw on an Elan or Synad to turn them into a six foot tall mantis warrior? I'd hope so, with 5 free LA to play with.

The reason I'd recommend Tashalatora PsyWar and Totemist here is because, frankly, the only things better at doing natural weapons are going to be your tier 1s. That combination will allow you to get huge numbers of natural attacks: claws, wings, tails, bites, spiney lookin' things, the lot. Then you want Rapidstrike, because it basically lets you take iteratives with your natural attacks. And then you go to town.

Not to mention the defenses and utility you can get out of your melds and powers. Flight, teleportation, loads of other stuff is accessible between those two classes. And I'm pretty sure there's a feat that lets you stack your damage dice from natural attacks and unarmed strikes (in some Dragon or other, I think).

So yeah, that's what I'd consider, in your position.

[ekarney]

Just checking, but you know that's not technically kosher, right? Domovoi are fey and the necropolitan template can only be applied to humanoids and monstrous humanoids.

So do the thri-kreen RHD just count as LA or does the x 1/y 1 thri-kreen have 3 HD?



A Domovoi that's been turned into Dustform, then had incarnate construct cast on it can have necropolitan ;)

It took me 3 days to work out, but I can do it, and for LA +0.
Whether I decide to or not is a different matter, but hell, I did it.

[Threadnaught]

Um Jeff, I think you broke my player. Could y'all fix it for me?


That or some of my munchkin rubbed off onto MetaMyconid and now he's a crazy munchkin. I guess that's what I get for being an insane munchkin.



Beware my players, for I have an idea for an additional (yet completely unnecessary) villain.