Rogue/Cleric of Redemption

[Palanan]

I'm still very new to Pathfinder, and I could use build advice on a character I'm working up. The character will be ninth level and will have some mix of rogue and cleric levels; I'm thinking Rogue 6/Cleric 3, although I'm open to changing that.

The outline of his backstory is that he ran a successful street crew in a large urban setting, eventually becoming a small-time neighborhood crimelord. He had an experience which drove him to start over, and he spent some years in a monastery, until Sarenrae called him out into the world again.

I'd like for him to have the classic rogue skillset--moves like a whisper, fine touch with opening locks, etc.--but also a suite of talents involving healing and some form of monastic discipline, as well as a knack for the longbow if it'll fit somehow.

I'm just starting with the character, so any suggestions for a build would be welcome.

[grarrrg]

I'm thinking Rogue 6/Cleric 3, although I'm open to changing that.

Gray Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/gray-warden) says "Hi".

[Palanan]

Thanks for the suggestion, but doesn't quite fit with what I had in mind.

Also, I should have mentioned that I'd be especially interested in any feature, archetype, etc. that allows him to trade out his sneak attack for something else. It's not something I see him using.

[Dayaz]

I don't know exactly what to tell you for levels, or how much of each class, but if you're okay with switching to a paladin, Half Orcs get a nice racial Paladin class that lets you try to redeem evil creatures (and, more importantly for a party, it allows you to work with evil creatures w/o falling as long as you're trying to redeem them into good creatures)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-orc/redeemer-paladin-half-orc

[avr]

If the class name doesn't offend you Ninja might fit better than Rogue for the skills you've named. A Ninja needs some charisma which in turn means that Oracle might be a better divine caster for this character.

Life would be the oracle mystery which gives most access to healing, though there's not a great deal of synergy with roguish abilities. Lore might represent peaceful monastic discipline. Waves includes the ability to create and to see thru fog which can be very handy for a sneak attacker.

Or you could single class as a Ninja and call some of its abilities the result of monastic training, some the result of early life as a rogue.

[avr]

You can't really trade out sneak attack from a rogue BTW. If you aren't ever going to use it then you might be better off going with, say, a Ranger with the Urban Ranger archetype instead of Rogue or Ninja.

[Kol Korran]

Some thoughts:
1) About the sneak attack. I don't think there is something that trades that. But I'd suggest you talk with your GM to allow you to trade SA levels for Channel energy levels. You'll need that healing in those levels, and it could represnt part of your character's redemption- forgoing hurting for healing.

2) If you play a half elf, you can take the "ancestral arms" alternate class feature, which trades the bonus skill foucs for a proficiency with one martial or exotic weapon. You can get the bow for that. Plus, half elves add the favored class bonus for two classes, and in your case you can use that.

I may come up with more later. All I thought of as to now.

[MightyPirate]

So you want a skilled character without sneak attack who can do light healing and knows her way around the bow? Sounds like an inquisitor to me. You'd even still have the teamwork feat mechanic from your days as a crime lord. You wouldn't have as much healing as a cleric but probably better than 3 levels of cleric at level 9. Inquisitors make stupidly good archers too, bane and judgement makes arrows really deadly.

Sadly you won't have access to the excellent Feather domain if you worship Sarenrae. The plus side is you can pick up the Redemption domain instead, an perfect fit if not quite as powerful.

[Psyren]

Gray Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/gray-warden) says "Hi".

"The character must publicly execute a tried and sentenced individual. Whether the victim is actually guilty or innocent is irrelevant." Yikes.

[Jigawatts]

I was going to suggest Inquisitor 9 also, its a fun class.

[grarrrg]

"The character must publicly execute a tried and sentenced individual. Whether the victim is actually guilty or innocent is irrelevant." Yikes.

It sounds worse than it is.

Basically you just need to be on the Firing Squad (community volunteer work!)

Or perhaps you'd like to pull the switch? I feel sorry for you. What it must feel like to want to pull the switch!

Or you could just do this guy's job:
http://www.morethings.com/fan/blazing_saddles/hangman.jpg

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
"The character must publicly execute a tried and sentenced individual. Whether the victim is actually guilty or innocent is irrelevant." Yikes.

Yeah, this is pretty much the opposite of the character concept. Redemption is what he works for, not indifferent execution.


Originally Posted by avr
If the class name doesn't offend you Ninja might fit better than Rogue for the skills you've named.

I appreciate the suggestion, and the ninja looks a hella lot better than its 3.5 counterpart, but not quite what I'm looking for here, in particular as far as trapfinding and lock-opening. I'm given to understand the party is in particular need of these skills.


Originally Posted by avr
You can't really trade out sneak attack from a rogue BTW. If you aren't ever going to use it then you might be better off going with, say, a Ranger with the Urban Ranger archetype….

Hmm, hmm, hmm. Definitely worth looking into.


Originally Posted by Kol Korran
If you play a half elf, you can take the "ancestral arms" alternate class feature, which trades the bonus skill foucs for a proficiency with one martial or exotic weapon. You can get the bow for that. Plus, half elves add the favored class bonus for two classes, and in your case you can use that.

Interesting, thanks. My long experience with 3.5 has left me rather jaundiced about half-elves, but that ACF sounds worthwhile.


Originally Posted by MightyPirate
So you want a skilled character without sneak attack who can do light healing and knows her his way around the bow? Sounds like an inquisitor to me…. Inquisitors make stupidly good archers too, bane and judgement makes arrows really deadly.

Well, this is part of my dilemma. Things like '"bane" and "judgement" sound a little harsh for this character, and in fact I'm a little torn about the longbow, because ideally I'd like this to be a character who only does nonlethal damage, perhaps with the hanbo for melee.

Longbows are decidedly non-nonlethal, but I've been told the party really, really needs some ranged support. Thus the urban-ranger and ancestral-arms ideas are interesting from that perspective, but I'm not sure how to reconcile that with his general notions about redemption and nonviolence.

Although it's true that Sarenrae may be a little fuzzier on the topic of kneecaps.

:smalltongue:

[MightyPirate]

Thanks for the Firefly.

If the lethality is all you're worried about please let me introduce you to Bludeoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bludgeoner-combat) and Blunted Arrows. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-blunt) Now you can be harmless as a kitten while still tossing down banes and judgements and whatever scariness you like. Remember Lawful Good doesn't mean Lawful Nice, just ask Batman.

I always recommend Blade of Mercy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/blade-of-mercy-goddess-of-dawn) and Enforcer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/enforcer-combat) to Sarenrae worshipers and nobody does that combo quite like a Half-Orc Inquisitor. Of course you're a little feat starved if you go archer so you might pass on the melee goodies, beautiful though they may be.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MightyPirate
If the lethality is all you're worried about please let me introduce you to Bludeoner and Blunted Arrows.

Aha! Bludgeoner looks like a PF version of Subduing Strike from BoED, which is something I was hoping to use here. Thanks for that, very useful indeed.

As for the Inquisitor, though…I've looked it over and it really doesn't fit what I had in mind for this character.


Originally Posted by MightyPirate
Of course you're a little feat starved if you go archer so you might pass on the melee goodies, beautiful though they may be.

This is my main mechanical worry so far--that I won't have enough feats to be a competent archer while being anything else at the same time.

Since the longbow might involve more hassle than it's worth, I'm thinking about just going for the crossbow approach. What would be the minimum feats in Pathfinder to be useful with a crossbow?

(Especially in a party which is apparently starving for ranged support....)

[Dayaz]

I had offered the Redeemer Paladin, if you wanted to look at it. I know playing a Paladin can suck sometimes, but you could see if your DM was willing to let you be an alternate alignment like Chaotic Good or something.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Dayaz
I had offered the Redeemer Paladin, if you wanted to look at it. I know playing a Paladin can suck sometimes….

As it happens, the party has a paladin already, and it's not quite the concept I was thinking of, but thanks.

Also, I'm more or less set on human for the race, or maybe half-elf if there's any particular benefit. Half-orc has been suggested a couple of times, but it's not really the direction I'm aiming for.



And on the cleric side, I notice there don't seem to be archetypes per se, just subdomains, which don't really impress me that much. I like cleric for the radius of positive energy channeling--reminds me of Sacred Boost a little. Are there any particular feats that would work well with this feature?

[Kudaku]

rogue variant of choice/Cleric into Evangelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist)? Go forth and spread the gospel of Sarenrae (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Sarenrae), the deity of Redemption.

Edit: The cleric does get some archetypes, though the selection is rather underwhelming compared to some of the other classes.

[Jigawatts]

There always the good ole Divine Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9623145&postcount=7).

Edit: Nevermind. I could have sworn that Sarenrae had access the luck domain, but I just double checked and she doesn't.

[Spore]

There always the good ole Divine Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9623145&postcount=7).

Edit: Nevermind. I could have sworn that Sarenrae had access the luck domain, but I just double checked and she doesn't.

I would honestly hand waive that requirement. I am unsure why Rich included that in the first place.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kudaku
The cleric does get some archetypes, though the selection is rather underwhelming compared to some of the other classes.

Tell me about it. I managed to miss those when I first looked through, and it doesn't look like I missed much at all. Those archetypes are really disappointing.



A couple other questions here:

1. Are there any feats that play off the cleric's channeling ability, the way that 3.5 allowed turn attempts to power other effects?

2. Is there any sort of quasi-VoP option that would work for a cleric? I've seen the monk-themed version, but my cleric won't use ki points. Is there anything thematically similar out there?

[Kol Korran]

There are feats that enable the cleric use his channel energy to actually run undead, use it on outsiders, on different alignments and Such, but nothing that uses the channel energy themselves to power up spells or metamagic and such. I think that PF deliberately avoided that, due to how broken it became ind D&D 3.5, but it's but an opinion.

The cleric did get very little attention in PF. While almost every class has interesting things happening at every level, the cleric just get some domain effects, and upgrading his channel energy. Which is why I think there are so little domains- you need to find something else to change other than the domains.

A thought- did you check the inquisitor class? It has a good number of skill points (6/ level), the skill lists incorporates both cleric and rogue skills (to some extent), and a slew of other cool abilities. You can probably refluff some stuff, and the class could be a sort of integration of your roguish training with some amount of divine power.

[Kudaku]

Tell me about it. I managed to miss those when I first looked through, and it doesn't look like I missed much at all. Those archetypes are really disappointing.

Overall I agree with your assessment, but there are a few gems in the rough in there. Separatist clerics are nice for combining domains that otherwise aren't compatible. Crusader is not a bad option if you want to make a fighting cleric using a feat-intensive combat style. Evangelist is excellent for a support cleric. Theologian lets you create genuinely "different" clerics depending on what domain you pick. Undead Lord is paradoxically the best channel energy healer in the game.

A couple other questions here:

1. Are there any feats that play off the cleric's channeling ability, the way that 3.5 allowed turn attempts to power other effects?

2. Is there any sort of quasi-VoP option that would work for a cleric? I've seen the monk-themed version, but my cleric won't use ki points. Is there anything thematically similar out there?

1. There are numerous channel energy feats, in fact they're their own group of feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/channeling-feats). If you really want to make the most out of the channel energy feature Selective Channel, Liberation Channel and Fateful Channel might be worth a closer read. As far as I know there's nothing like Divine Metamagic in Pathfinder though.

2. Nnnnnot really. However Pathfinder is still compatible with 3.5. If you think the BoED version was viable then you could simply reverse engineer the feat into Pathfinder. :smallsmile:

P.S. If you're seriously planning on using BoED and don't mind doing some extra reading I'd strongly suggest checking out some of the homebrew takes on the concept. The book of exalted deeds version has some issues that'll start to show their ugly heads around level 5.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kol Korran
There are feats that enable the cleric use his channel energy to actually run undead, use it on outsiders, on different alignments and Such, but nothing that uses the channel energy themselves to power up spells or metamagic and such. I think that PF deliberately avoided that, due to how broken it became ind D&D 3.5, but it's but an opinion.

Okay, thanks--I have a feeling you're probably correct about their wanting to avoid DMM and the like.


Originally Posted by Kol Korran
A thought- did you check the inquisitor class?

I think you're the third or fourth person to suggest it so far. :smalltongue:

I'd originally written it off, but given how many people have mentioned it, I'll give it another look.


Originally Posted by Kol Korran
The cleric did get very little attention in PF.

Something else I'm noticing is the general lack of prestige classes, at least compared to 3.5. Granted that 3.5 was utterly overloaded with PrCs, and I understand Pathfinder wants you to love the base classes more, but it would be nice to have a few options. There are a few PrCs in the APG, Inner Sea World Guide, etc., but none of them are really useful or appropriate for what I'm thinking of.

Might just drive me to the inquisitor, you never know.

:smallbiggrin:


Originally Posted by Kudaku
Evangelist is excellent for a support cleric.

I'd looked at Evangelist and it didn't quite seem to fit…but support cleric is part of what I'm aiming for, since I don't mind being the party healer. What can Evangelist do for me?


Originally Posted by Kudaku
If you really want to make the most out of the channel energy feature Selective Channel, Liberation Channel and Fateful Channel might be worth a closer read.

Thanks for these suggestions, I appreciate it. Never knew there were so many channel feats….


Originally Posted by Kudaku
The book of exalted deeds version has some issues that'll start to show their ugly heads around level 5.

Thanks. I love the BoED, but I don't disagree with your assessment, and hadn't been planning on a full VoP build for the rogue/cleric anyhow. I was mainly looking for some sort of clerical orders that might encourage a simpler life.

[Kudaku]

I'd originally written off [the inquisitor], but given how many people have mentioned it, I'll give it another look.
I know how you feel about the inquisitor, it doesn't exactly jump off the page when you first read it - but it's probably one of the best balanced classes in Pathfinder. It's a very, very good option if you want to play a "divine rogue". That said, it handles like an offensive self-buffing divine bard - I don't really think it makes for a very good "support" build. The spell slots are limited, you're on a slower spell progression and most of the class features (Judgement, Bane, solo tactics) are inquisitor-only rather than party-wide.


I'd looked at Evangelist and it didn't quite seem to fit…but support cleric is part of what I'm aiming for, since I don't mind being the party healer. What can Evangelist do for me?

Evangelist (archetype) gives you Inspire Courage as a bard, which makes you one of the most effective buff bots in the game - combining Inspire Courage and 9th level spell progression buff spells. Since you mentioned prestige classes, have you taken a look at the Inner Sea Gods? It has the Evangelist (not to be confused with the archetype mentioned earlier) and the Exalted prestige classes, both are interesting options for clerics. An Evangelist (archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/evangelist)) Cleric who takes the Evangelist (prestige class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist)) combines a full progression cleric and a pseudo-bard at the cost of a single class progression level, a feat and slightly worse saves - it can be pretty cool. :smallsmile:

At the risk of overloading you with information, here's a link to Tarkxt's excellent cleric guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6-_4HvPvV-Tt7I67Gi_oPhgHmeDVA5SBl-WrJSgf5s/edit?hl=en://). Another option is the Life Oracle, which is not quite as good as the cleric in providing support buffs but probably handles healing better than any other class in Pathfinder, barring 3rd party content.


Thanks for these suggestions, I appreciate it. Never knew there were so many channel feats….
Happy to help! The wide range of channel feats actually poses a little bit of a problem for me. There are a lot of channel feats available, but focusing on channel energy can also get really feat intensive. You'll want Quicken Channel and Selective Channel for sure, with quite a few other options like Fateful Channel, Extra Channel and Versatile Channeler also available - before you know it all your feats are tied up in a class feature that's handy, but not necessarily amazing. If you want to use channel Energy then the Evangelist Archetype might not be the best fit since it slows down your Channel progression.