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View Full Version : Pathfinder Talk of Monks has me thinkin' (Monk Fix Discussion)



LordAshenshield
2014-09-03, 02:00 AM
I was always curious about how to fix the monk, at least to make the monk a little better off.

One idea I had given we have things like the flexibility of feats from Brawler. What if we took the Qinggong Monk Archetype and allowed the Monk to set their abilities for the day from the lists.

Reduce the Unarmed damage back to 1d4, but allow a scaling static increase bonus. Roughly the average of the previous damage dice. So at level 20 its 2d10. That is an average of 11. Now at level Twenty a 1d4+11(+Str or Dex whichever is highest) doesn't seem so high even with a flurry of blows mechanic.

Have Movement speed increase and apply it to all modes of movement speed.
Change Slow Fall to allow for spending a 1 Ki point to reduce fall damage by half and at a higher level allow them to spend 2 Ki points to remove fall damage completely. Or use a Spider Step like mechanic that allows a Monk to make an Acrobatics check (DC 20) to instead of sliding along the wall make solid contact and use the Spider Step ability to run along the wall but instead of half slow fall distance make it their simple movement speed. This still means they need a surface to move. And have it count as Spider Step for purposes of PreReq. Heck if you have both you can seriously play it up as a cinematic vision of a Monk sliding off a wall and instead of falling he flips and his feet make contact with the wall, he races down to the wall till he reaches to fast a speed (End of his movement range) and slides down the wall to the bottom(Slow fall). Of course Spider Step lets you run on water too so meh not sure if that should count too.

Wholeness of Body, nice ability but at level 20 you are healing 20 HP which might keep you from dying immediately but it is not going to be very useful. What if it was Character Level+Wis+Con modifer it increases the potential to heal a bit but not out of control.

And of course, why not allow the Monk to wear Light armor and restrict it like the Druid in that it cannot be composed of metal or any sort. so restricting it reasonably to leather or something like that. And allow the Monk to count weapons like the Brass Knuckles, Cestus, Emei piercers, and gauntlets for their unarmed damage progression.

Any thoughts?

UmpteenthDoctor
2014-09-03, 02:37 AM
Interesting
I might change the Stunning Fist feat to make it count the full class levels rather then half but that might make it too strong.
Also would change Maneuver Training to count the Monks level as BAB for CMD not just CMB

facelessminion
2014-09-03, 02:57 AM
They need full BAB and pounce, with the caveat of only while using flurry, or something else to restrict it to monk weapons. As it stands, a class that is a pure melee is weak at melee, and a class whose powers should be based on flipping around the battlefield has to focus on standing still.

avr
2014-09-03, 03:02 AM
I think before you can discuss a monk fix you need to decide what theme you're aiming for. The OP changes make the monk a slightly better and more flexible combatant, but it's not obvious how they go together or what exact problem they're intended to fix.

LordAshenshield
2014-09-03, 03:06 AM
The problem is the Monk while having a lot of class features really has nothing that is all that good and some of the monk stuff is either weak (lvl 17 being able to talk to all living things).

Also In PF Monks treat their class level as their BAB for flurry so they have Full BAB during Flurry of Blows.

Another I wanted to add was give Abundant Step to them at level 8 same time it comes online for a Wizard, or at least by 12th level make it a swift action so long as they take no move action before hand. This allows them to flurry of blows with their teleports.

SciChronic
2014-09-03, 03:08 AM
You'd also need to add unarmed attack enhancements al a soulknife, but with better progression/flexibility, possibly add in DR work arounds (i.e.: fist count as adamantium at level X)

Sayt
2014-09-03, 03:11 AM
Here's what I think Monk's need:

*Full BA/d10 HD
*Ability to spend a ki point to make a move action (As a swift action, like all other ki points)
*Use Wisdom instead of Dex or Str for everything.
*Armor bonus to AC equal to half his monk level, rather than quarter. This is in place of Monk's no armour rules and normal armour bonus.
*The monk can enhance their body to be granted an Enhancement to AC and unarmed strike hit/damage by sacrificing wealth in a similar fashion to OA Samurai, at magic weapon costs.
*Wholeness of body lets you use Wisdom instead of Con for HP and Recalculate.

LordAshenshield
2014-09-03, 03:12 AM
You'd also need to add unarmed attack enhancements al a soulknife, but with better progression/flexibility, possibly add in DR work arounds (i.e.: fist count as adamantium at level X)

I thought of maybe borrowing the Scared Weapon from Warpriest and Steel-Breaker Archetype from Brawler.

But that is what the weapon thing is for, to enchant them.

But as a swift action allow the Monk to make a Wis check (DC 10 + Targets CR or Object's Hardness) allows the monk a +2 to all attacks this round. And any attack made ignores Creature or object's hardness or DR.

LordAshenshield
2014-09-03, 03:15 AM
Here's what I think Monk's need:

*Full BA/d10 HD
*Ability to spend a ki point to make a move action (As a swift action, like all other ki points)
*Use Wisdom instead of Dex or Str for everything.
*Armor bonus to AC equal to half his monk level, rather than quarter. This is in place of Monk's no armour rules and normal armour bonus.
*The monk can enhance their body to be granted an Enhancement to AC and unarmed strike hit/damage by sacrificing wealth in a similar fashion to OA Samurai, at magic weapon costs.
*Wholeness of body lets you use Wisdom instead of Con for HP and Recalculate.

That is not bad at all, the larger HD makes sense for their profession and the ability to shorten Move actions gives them the ability to Flurry of Blows. As a DM myself I can say I don't mind work arounds so long as something of value is being used in this case it would be Ki points.

Not sure about the AC armor bonus though. I honestly considered just saying after awhile CON gets added to AC as a unnamed bonus but yours might work out better.

Gwendol
2014-09-03, 03:21 AM
In addition, monks should be able to have a ki pool and a set of actions to spend their ki on. Look at the ninja for inspiration, and put a ki cost on other monk abilities (dimension door and quivering palm being the most obvious candidates).

LordAshenshield
2014-09-03, 03:24 AM
Pathfinder does give a Ki pool and so forth. It is also why I am suggesting the daily choice from the Qinggong list of replacements.

Gwendol
2014-09-03, 03:26 AM
Have you looked at the Oriental Adventures supplement? It has a few more options for monk-style characters (PrC, feats, etc).

LordAshenshield
2014-09-03, 03:36 AM
I have but this is more for Pathfinder.

Hmm 1d4 at level 20 seems really small even with the +11 I am suggesting for static damage. Should the dice scale up as you level to say 1d10 by level 20?

Eldan
2014-09-03, 04:11 AM
I think the question, for me, becomes: what would a monk do that an unarmed Swordsage or Psychic Warrior doesn't already do with roughly the same fluff, but more interesting mechanics?

Sayt
2014-09-03, 04:28 AM
I think the question, for me, becomes: what would a monk do that an unarmed Swordsage or Psychic Warrior doesn't already do with roughly the same fluff, but more interesting mechanics?

Well, "Be in pathfinder" is a good start :smalltongue:
Well, DSP's Psychic Warrior is pretty sweet, but it is third party and some GM's are finicky about that


Edit: More seriously, some players are spending averse, and don't want the increased resource management of a Psychic Warrior, and some GM's/players hate the Swordsage (Above and beyond their hatred for ToB in general, "Swordsausage" is the phrase some of my playgroup use). Furthermore, unarmed Swordsage is not actually a concrete thing, and more a suggested adaptation. Furthermore, Monk is in Core, and it is the weakest of the core classes, and a highly recognizable trope, which I feel deserves decent representation in and of itself, as itself.

JusticeZero
2014-09-03, 02:37 PM
Here's what Monks need: Removal. Seriously, I don't know why this is a big deal. They're exactly as important as the Assassin base class as far as being "traditional", and the concept space they fill has a LOT of other things that fit. They're as traditional as the Bard as a PRC with Druid spells. It was an idea that seemed interesting and nostalgic, it didn't work out, and a lot of ways to do it with working parts exist now.