[Pathfinder] Assembling a "Demon Witch".. sort of class for a special circumstance.

[Kittenwolf]

Hi there. So, I've got a class that I'm assembling for a specific game & situation, and I'll give you some background on what it's for first.

I'm currently in a game, lvl 8, probably not far from 9, playing a Neutral Evil Tiefling Witch. Game is likely to last to 13th of 15th level or so.
Due to circumstances of the game, I'll be losing my magic (my familiar's connection to my patron is being broken by Plot Stuff). I'll still have access to Hexes, but my spells themselves will be gone.

As such, unsurprisingly, my character will be rather panicking and looking for any magical power she can find to replace it, in this case empowering her own demonic essence to tap into her devilish/demonic heritage and become more of a full demon/devil.

So I'm looking at this not just from the point of view of general class balance and such, but also for this specific game.


Beastmaster Ranger - Now deceased. Had a Roc animal companion who was the best combat monster in the party.
Bard - Replacement for the Ranger. Only been around one session so not sure on his specifics, but he does have Leadership for a fighter cohort (strengths also unknown), DOESN'T have Inspire Courage or Diplomacy, but has bluff at hideous proportions (seems to be deliberately going against the stereotype)
Fighter - Pretty standard tank. Shield & cutlass, heavy armour, loves using Dirty Tricks
Rogue #1 - Breaking & entering style thief, good in melee when he has flanking.. not so much otherwise
Rogue #2 - Our Diplomat, playing more of a swashbuckler-y showoff-y rogue. Also good with flanking, not so much otherwise
Wizard - Generalist I think. Not much more to say. Likes Fireball
Cleric - Travel & Luck domains, super speedy uber healer who loves using Touch of Luck. Very much support
Witch - Me. Mostly debuffer. Slumber, Enervation, Web, that type of thing.

You'll no doubt note that we are not optimised or powergamed, definitely going for character decisions over optimal ones. There will be no multiclassing involved, this class will be it for my build.



And now, here's the crunchy stuff. At the moment it's mostly assembled from three parts:
Witch Hexes (and familiar), Alchemist Mutagen and the Half Fiend Template. The idea is that she'll have a somewhat demonic base form, with Hexes and some SLAs and a bit of melee ability, and then when she uses the Mutagen she turns into a 'greater demon' and wrecks havoc.
Most of it scales with level pretty well, but working out when a lot of the Half Fiend stuff kicks in is a bit nebulous at the moment.
The SLAs are gained in a similar way to the Half Fiend ones, but are mostly off the Witch spell list rather than the standard ones.



Demon Witch

HD: d6
Bab: 3/4
Skills: 4+Int (combine Alchemist & Witch skill lists)
Saves: Fort & Will high, Reflex low
Class Abilities:
* Hexes, including Greater & Grand, exactly as per the Witch class
* Discoveries. As per Alchemist, includes the Master Chymist mutations list, but obviously anything requiring Extracts or Bombs can't be taken
* Resistances. Poison, Fire, Acid, Cold and Electricity resistances all increased by Class Level minus Five (minimum zero, maximum 10)
* DR Cold Iron or Silver (not decided yet) also equal to Class Level minus five (minimum zero, maximum 10)
* SR 5+Class Level (this may be removed or converted into a bonus saves vs spells)

SLAs
All usable 1/day except Detect Magic, the number is the level they're gained at, save is Int based
1) Detect Magic (at will)
1) Charm Person
3) Limp Lash
5) Flame Breath (30ft cone, fire damage, basically fireball but in a cone)
7) Enervation
9) Dominate Person
11) Animate Dead
13) Greater Teleport
15) Nine Lives
17) Cursed Earth
19) Wail of the Banshee


Demon Metamorphosis
Operates exactly as the Alchemist Mutagen with the Beastmorph archetype.


Pure boosts, unsure exactly when to gain them, though I'm leaning towards having them all by level 10/11, even though it makes the mid levels weighted
* +1 Natural Armour
* +4 Dex
* +4 Charisma
* +2 Strength
* +2 Con
* +2 Int
* Winged flight at 2x Land speed (Good maneuverability)


So, that's what I'm looking at. I know it's a tad disjointed how it appears here, but hopefully it'll be enough for people to give advice on :)

[Spore]

Is the crunch not changeable? I find it quite dangerous for you and pretty weak. Now hear me out. You are already a powerful caster in your own group, optimized or not. And selling your soul SHOULD give you a noticeable increase in power (you DM will adjust the odds in response anyway). You have vast utility as a true witch which you will throw away now possibly screwing over your party synergy.

Some things for your new class:
1) Poison Immunity should be a given. Protection from Good or Unholy Aura could be a static bonus at a given level.
2) You might change your demonic form attribute descriptors away from alchemical bonus. It just ruins the flavor.
3) If you only have SLAs give yourself a d10 (like true outsiders). If you incorporate 2/3 spellcasting then a d8 should suffice. A d6 is nothing but suicide.
4) SR should be 6+HD (for weak spell resistance) or 11 + HD for strong spell resistance.
5) Animate Dead, Wail of the Banshee, Enervation, Nine Lives just do not fit the fluff. See the Half-Fiend Template for pointers.
6) Demons have no electricity resistance.

The spell choices are weird, the powers you sell your soul for are poor and you will feel like you betrayed yourself for that power "increase". I would honestly just trade in some HD for monster HD or add the Half Fiend Template. Worldly servitors get the powers of the lower planes while otherworldly servitors gain the form representing the most vile sins imaginable.

You should just get the Half Fiend Template for your spellcasting for free until you got a new familiar (a quasit of course) offering you the Occult patron. Personally I would just write a special archetype for the witch and/or add the Half Fiend Template.

[Spore]

These are for all outsiders:

d10 Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.

HD: d10
Bab: 3/4
Skills: 4+Int (combine Alchemist & Witch skill lists)
Saves: Fort & Will high, Reflex low
Class Abilities:
* Hexes, including Greater & Grand, exactly as per the Witch class
* Changed Abyssal Sorcerer bloodline progression. 1. Claws at will 3. Demon Resistances 9. Strength of the Abyss 15. Summon Monster as the Summoner SLA 3/day, only demons and infernal creatures 20. Demonic Might
* DR Cold Iron or Good equal to 1/2 class level
* SR 11+Class Level (this may be removed or converted into a bonus saves vs spells)

SLAs
All usable 1/day except when noted, the number is the level they're gained at, save is Int based
1) Detect Magic (at will)
1) Charm Person 3/day
3) Limp Lash 3/day
5) Flame Breath at will
7) Enervation
9) Dominate Person
11) True Seeing
13) Greater Teleport
15) Blasphemy
17) Plane Shift at will
19) Unholy Aura


Demon Metamorphosis
Operates exactly as the Alchemist Mutagen with the Beastmorph archetype.


Pure boosts, unsure exactly when to gain them, though I'm leaning towards having them all by level 10/11, even though it makes the mid levels weighted
* +1 Natural Armour
* +4 Dex
* +4 Charisma
* +2 Strength
* +2 Con
* +2 Int
* Winged flight at 2x Land speed (Good maneuverability)

[Kittenwolf]

Is the crunch not changeable? I find it quite dangerous for you and pretty weak. Now hear me out. You are already a powerful caster in your own group, optimized or not. And selling your soul SHOULD give you a noticeable increase in power (you DM will adjust the odds in response anyway). You have vast utility as a true witch which you will throw away now possibly screwing over your party synergy.

The crunch is definitely changeable, still working it all out with my GM. I know I'm dropping a lot of utility compared to a straight caster. That's exactly why I've made this post, trying to find the balance point :)
And I'm not selling my soul exactly, just.. empowering my demon side ;)

I should probably also have given some other background on the world, it's an *extremely* low magic world from many points of view, Mages are little more than rumours, magic items have to be made, not bought (we basically have a friendly mage who will make what we need, but time is always an issue). Same with Scrolls etc (I haven't been able to add a single extra spell to my list in eight levels). I ended up with half a city jaw-dropping and standing in stunned silence because I flew through the town throwing lightning bolts at an enemy.
The only stat boosting item in the game thus far is a +2 Con belt that we literally picked up last session (straight to the tank it goes!)


Some things for your new class:
1) Poison Immunity should be a given. Protection from Good or Unholy Aura could be a static bonus at a given level.
2) You might change your demonic form attribute descriptors away from alchemical bonus. It just ruins the flavor.
3) If you only have SLAs give yourself a d10 (like true outsiders). If you incorporate 2/3 spellcasting then a d8 should suffice. A d6 is nothing but suicide.
4) SR should be 6+HD (for weak spell resistance) or 11 + HD for strong spell resistance.
5) Animate Dead, Wail of the Banshee, Enervation, Nine Lives just do not fit the fluff. See the Half-Fiend Template for pointers.
6) Demons have no electricity resistance.

1) The reason I dropped it to resistance is because I know I as a GM get annoyed at times when players have outright immunity to some things. Up to +10 to the save is pretty close to immunity except "When plot requires" (or a nat one drops in to make things interesting)
2) Dang, I didn't specify. Yes, all the bonuses will be refluffed, it's a special ritual rather than a potion, bonuses will be Profane rather than alchemical, etc
3) With HP, we do the "Half the die, plus one" method rather than actually rolling, so d6 isn't too bad. Plus I don't want to end up tougher than our dedicated tank, since that'd be kinda rude
4) You're right, thanks
5) Actually, one of the Demons I'm basing her on, given what she can already do, is the Lilin, which does get Animate Dead. The others, well, I admittedly went for Witch oriented stuff more than Demon oriented stuff in some cases. It's a first draft still :)
6) Half fiend template gives Electricity resistance according to the SRD



The spell choices are weird, the powers you sell your soul for are poor and you will feel like you betrayed yourself for that power "increase". I would honestly just trade in some HD for monster HD or add the Half Fiend Template. Worldly servitors get the powers of the lower planes while otherworldly servitors gain the form representing the most vile sins imaginable.

You should just get the Half Fiend Template for your spellcasting for free until you got a new familiar (a quasit of course) offering you the Occult patron. Personally I would just write a special archetype for the witch and/or add the Half Fiend Template.

I think part of the issue is that I'm underselling the 'cost' of the spell lost, while overselling the worth of some of the more physical things, largely because most of the party *isn't* spellcaster-y so I'm aiming towards their level.

Hm. I'll do some further thinking...

[Xerlith]

Why not make it a custom bloodline instead and play a Bloodrager? An archetype maybe.
As it is... Well. It's got 1/day abilities and nothing much to show when they're gone. The mutagen surely is nice, but...

You know, I actually can kind of see this working on a Dragon Disciple refluffed to demonblood instead.

[TandemChelipeds]

Why not make it a custom bloodline instead and play a Bloodrager? An archetype maybe.
As it is... Well. It's got 1/day abilities and nothing much to show when they're gone. The mutagen surely is nice, but...

You know, I actually can kind of see this working on a Dragon Disciple refluffed to demonblood instead.

There's already an Abyssal bloodline, it'd do the trick. But the problem I see is that this character's a Witch. Witches use Intelligence as their casting stat, and they're likely to have low Strength and Charisma, so I doubt it'd be optimal.

[Spore]

We should maybe start over again. What fluff are you trying to bring in and which power level are you aiming for?

Personally I would aim for something like the bard's power AKA T3 powers. So a niche in which you excel and a few other things that increase your utility (like SLAs).

[Kittenwolf]

We should maybe start over again. What fluff are you trying to bring in and which power level are you aiming for?

Fluff-wise I'm looking for tapping into her own demonic heritage as a replacement for Witch-patron magic.
She's not making a deal with a devil or such, it's all her own.

Power level of Low T2 or T3 preferable.

Crunch wise I want to keep Hexes and "Mutagen"/discoveries, along with some increased melee capability & survivability.
Beyond that, I'm after some arcane power, but not full spellcasting (or even Alchemist 'spellcasting') that still meets the Fiendish and/or Witchy theme.
In some ways it's a pity the 3.5 Warlock didn't make it to Pathfinder.

[Spore]

I don't get the Alchemist part. Is this purely because of MacBethian bubbling cauldrons and witches brewing something?

I think if you keep the hexes and alternate them with discoveries you should have enough power although I would just skip the discoveries altogether and go for alchemist casting.

Demonic Brewmistress:

HD: d8
BAB: 3/4
Saves: High Fort & Will, boni to poison saves
Casting list: Alchemist (you basically turn to Alchemy once your more delicate spells don't work anymore)
Features: Hexes, Greater Hexes, Mutagenic Form and Mutate x/day (use Smite Evil progression, so 1 and then every 3rd after) (refluffed mutagenic form)
SLA (when you use Mutagenic Form or Demonic Form choose one Demon whose CR is equal or lower than your HD. You get those SLAs).

That's what I'd do.

[Kittenwolf]

I don't get the Alchemist part. Is this purely because of MacBethian bubbling cauldrons and witches brewing something?

It's mostly just the refluffed "Mutagen" that I want, going into the whole big combat demon thing.

[Spore]

It's mostly just the refluffed "Mutagen" that I want, going into the whole big combat demon thing.

Then just copy the Master Chymist's Mutate ability as it doesn't require a one hour preparation. You get multiple charges per day and the fact that you transform if under stress (crit, failed saves) is pretty cool too.