Justifying "Grave Robbing"

[Firechanter]

Did any of you ever have this (kind of self-made) dilemma before?

An Adventure contains a section in a crypt or barrow. The undead have gear that, once they are destroyed, the adventures are clearly meant to have. However, some players claim that graverobbing is a bad thing and the loot should be left where it is. Others disagree ("Are you nuts?").

How would a _Good_ character justify taking the Greatsword of Uberness that was wielded by a Barrow-Wight until the party dispatched it a minute ago?

My line of reasoning would probably go something like this: "Normal, peaceful dead, yes, these must not be disturbed without a very good reason. Revenants of any kind have forfeited this privilege. A place haunted by Undead is not even a grave anymore. Once the Undead are destroyed, it is just an empty, unhallowed place, and it is perfectly alright to take what you find."

[Doorhandle]

With orcs, or a weapon plundered form a creature's gut: "They stole that, and killed the original owner with it. I shall honor his memory by doing the same to them."

[Ettina]

I don't see any problem with grave-robbing even from normal dead. They aren't using it anymore, why shouldn't I have it? If no one is harmed by an action, I see no reason to object to it. My only issues with it are that dead bodies are icky and it might upset the family.

Actually, robbing the undead might get more objection from me than robbing the dead. The undead are actually using their stuff, after all, and can object to it being taken. But once you've decided to kill them, taking their stuff isn't really worth worrying about. Unless you killed them expressly intending for them to be raised again later.

[TeslaJr]

IIRC, in DnD all Undead are considered inherently evil, so there shouldn't be a problem with even a LG character looting the bodies of the re-dead. I don't see a good character looting a peaceful, non-undead dead (unless maybe it belonged to a long dead dictator or something).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You have to consider how that stuff ended up in the crypt/grave in the first place. In a fantasy setting, people can visit the outer planes where the souls of the dead end up, there shouldn't be any culture of burying the warrior in his armor with his weapons because they know that it won't make any difference in the afterlife. Human cultures believed that burying the dead with their possessions would allow them to have possessions in the afterlife, or that the dead would return to life one day and they would need this stuff whenever that happens. This is not the case in a given fantasy setting, though, and furthermore, given the frequency of undead, bodies are better off burned than buried.

So, valuables that end up in a crypt or grave are the possessions of someone who's so greedy that he would rather have his valuables buried with him than passed along to his next of kin or if lacking (deserving) next of kin, given to a worthy cause. Otherwise weapons and armor buried with the dead are meant to be used by their animate forms, in which case evil individuals knowingly intended for those bodies to become evil undead monstrosities and planned ahead for it, and that gear would be better put to use in the hands of good characters like the PCs (or whoever it gets sold to).

[satcharna]

You could also simply use "For the greater good" as a justification.

"With this weapon I can defeat the evil! Having to take it from a grave is regrettable, but it's not as if it was doing any good in there."

[Jeff the Green]

It's more of a cultural, maybe Lawful/Chaotic or religious than Good/Evil. You could justify it as that the dead no longer need it or that they had no right to it when alive, as others suggested. But an Evil character could also abhor grave robbing because it's disrespectful to the elders or because people should not fear death, and people will fear death if they think their body will be messed with.


IIRC, in DnD all Undead are considered evil, so there shouldn't be a problem with even a LG character looting the bodies of the re-dead.

Many, maybe most, but not all. Ghosts are Alignment: Any, and Forgotten Realms has Archliches and Baelnorns.

[hamishspence]

They'll all ping as Evil on somebody's Evildar though - since the spell says "Undead" rather than "Evil undead"

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm

[TeslaJr]

Many, maybe most, but not all. Ghosts are Alignment: Any, and Forgotten Realms has Archliches and Baelnorns.

Ah. I don't run into ghosts that often, and I've never even heard of the other two.

[Hamste]

You have to consider how that stuff ended up in the crypt/grave in the first place. In a fantasy setting, people can visit the outer planes where the souls of the dead end up, there shouldn't be any culture of burying the warrior in his armor with his weapons because they know that it won't make any difference in the afterlife. Human cultures believed that burying the dead with their possessions would allow them to have possessions in the afterlife, or that the dead would return to life one day and they would need this stuff whenever that happens. This is not the case in a given fantasy setting, though, and furthermore, given the frequency of undead, bodies are better off burned than buried.

So, valuables that end up in a crypt or grave are the possessions of someone who's so greedy that he would rather have his valuables buried with him than passed along to his next of kin or if lacking (deserving) next of kin, given to a worthy cause. Otherwise weapons and armor buried with the dead are meant to be used by their animate forms, in which case evil individuals knowingly intended for those bodies to become evil undead monstrosities and planned ahead for it, and that gear would be better put to use in the hands of good characters like the PCs (or whoever it gets sold to).

The thing is most people don't know about what happens after they die. They most likely do not have knowledge (planes) trained and if they ever meet a ghost, the ghost does have the equipment they are buried with which would actually suggest that burying people with their gear is important to those who do not have knowledge planes. It is completely reasonable for there to still be a culture based off burying the dead with their items. Besides, even if they are greedy it doesn't change the fact it is still their stuff even after death, if they were ever brought back from the dead for whatever reason it would be totally reasonable for them to break into their own crypt and want their stuff back.

The real question is why with so many undead in the world would you ever have a religion where you bury bodies or stick them in a crypt? Seriously, that is like leaving food out and wondering why their are so many bugs around. Sure at first you might wonder about it but eventually you would realize what is causing it. Unless undead are totally unheard in the setting surely someone must have seen a zombie and went...Hmmmm, that looks a lot like very slow walking corpse, maybe it is somehow related to the broken open and empty crypts we have been hearing about, while they ran away screaming.

[Telonius]

IMO, typical grave robbing wouldn't ping on the Good/Evil scale, it would ping on Law/Chaos. Good and Evil are all about inflicting harm on someone. Unless you're desecrating a grave in order to hurt the person's family, grave robbing doesn't really hurt anyone. What it does disrupt, is a societal rule about how you should respect the dead. That says "Law," more than "Good."

[Kudaku]

How would a _Good_ character justify taking the Greatsword of Uberness that was wielded by a Barrow-Wight until the party dispatched it a minute ago?

Forceful disarmament! :smalltongue:

Seriously though: In a world where dead bodies frequently come back to life and try to kill anyone in the general proximity, the last thing I'd want them to have on hand is armor and weapons - much like how you don't place the prison guard armory in the prisoner block.

[Segev]

If it is a problem that your LG warriors are refusing to loot the graves of the monsters they've just laid back to rest, then consider that it is at least partially out of respect for the living heirs and caretakers of the tombs that such laws exist. There are two ways to ensure the items are made acceptable to the LG hero:

1) The mundane way is to have the owners/heirs/caretakers of the tombs or their inhabitants express gratitude for laying the restless dead back to rest, and for cleansing the sacred resting place of the evil that tainted it. In gratitude, they have collected these items of value that they would be honored if the noble heroes would carry in memory of their ancestor who once wielded it. "We're sure he would have wanted you to have it." The family can give monetary rewards out of their own coffers to compensate for any art object loot you wanted them to pick up that they refused to.

2) The less than mundane way would be to have the literal spirit of the one buried with the loot appear, express his gratitude, and ask the heroes who cleansed his grave/gave him peace/whatever to accept his grave goods as tokens of his esteem. Emphasize to the LG warrior how honored he would be if the LG warrior would wield the weapon/wear the armor and carry on his good work. Even, if necessary, go so far as to suggest that, if it does not suit their needs, it should sell well or his family would honor his request to "buy it back" for similar reward.


The one risk is making the players feel trapped into using the items if they would rather have the loot. Make sure that they have opportunity to sell it in a way that won't come off as offensive or negligent if they're the sorts to worry about showing respect for those who gave them the items which are so fraught with meaning. (Also consider something like Ancestral Weapon rules.)

[Psyren]

How is it grave robbing?? The gear came to the PCs!

[sleepyphoenixx]

Taking loot from the undead isn't grave robbing because you're not disturbing graves. You kill something monstrous and/or evil and then take its stuff to put it to better purposes (read:your own). Because if you don't think your cause is worthy why would you do it? To the victor go the spoils, that's all there is to it.

[JusticeZero]

The real question is why with so many undead in the world would you ever have a religion where you bury bodies or stick them in a crypt? Seriously, that is like leaving food out and wondering why their are so many bugs around.
In the setting I have been working on recently, it is common to leave crypts around full of undead because animating the dead traps the soul in the body, and at the moment, the afterlife is extremely bleak to the point where that seems like a good idea. This is also why there are so many enchanted items around - enchanted items require a soul to be bound to them, so people volunteer to be used to fuel them as it's better than the alternative.

[ArqArturo]

Can't a poor boy work in peace?
I need to make me a shilling
I sell my wares to the doctors in town
They couldn't be more willing
Stop screaming at me

"Slow down you grave robbing bastard"
"Stop right there" I hear the constable scream
"Slow down you grave robbing bastard"
If they think they're gonna catch me
They're all in a dream (http://youtu.be/VgPxwF0Edqo)

[Dimers]

I prefer to work within the players' self-imposed RP limits, so if a party refused the loot for moral/ethical reasons, I'd give them more later instead. In many cases I could just apply a "gift from the gods/spirits" sort of boost, like a morale bonus that lasts for a couple levels.

The bigger problem for me is when one party member imposes his RP on the whole group, like the stereotyped paladin problem -- "I won't rob graves, so the rest of you have to skip your goodies!" From what I've seen that causes trouble out of proportion to the RP benefit.

[atemu1234]

I always justified it in two separate ways (three if you count not caring)

1. "Honor the Dead" way: You think that the dead would be honored for their ancient weapon to cleave their enemy's flesh once more. Therefore, you do not think they would mind if you took the weapon from their tomb. Even if you sell it, you're using the money to fight whatever, so taking it isn't bad.

2. "They're not using it anyway" way: You think that whatever its uses, they don't need it anymore. Therefore, you may as well take it from their grave. This works better for chaotic characters.

[OldTrees1]

General Populace Graves:
Those buried here were good people. They want to see the world grow into a better place. If they need* my arms to wield they weapons**, then I humbly give myself to them. When my service is no longer needed I will return their weapons to their side.

*"need" is not meant as a loophole. It literally means need. If the world does not need the "graverobbing" then too bad.
**"weapons" meant broadly and with flair to represent objects used to further their goals.

Hero Graves:
Those buried here were heroes. They gave themselves to the cause of improving this world. Their deeds have blessed their tools as symbols to promote good in others. They would be grateful to see those symbols continue the great quest as they enjoy a well deserved rest.

[Elderand]

FOR SCIENCE !

-Signed Elderand who is about ten minutes away from screamin it's alive, it's alive !-

[StoneCipher]

As a note, a lot of common low level undead aren't evil, the animators of them are. I wouldn't find a common zombie or skeleton evil because they lack the intelligence to be evil. They more or less get to the point of being true neutral and indiscriminantly attacking unless otherwise ordered.

As for tomb raiding, it all comes down to who puts people in there. If there is a tomb that got overrun, but the local town has their dearly departed that they want put to rest (again) and they do not specifically state GO NUTS ON THE TREASURES then I would consider it morally wrong to take anything. Commoners are supposedly stupid and ignorant of the planes and may want their families to have the possessions in the crypt.

If it's a random tomb and there is nobody around attempting to use it or care for it and its been long forgotten, then I'd say take what you can and give nothing back.

[Emperor Tippy]

"I am better served with those shinnies being in my possession than I am with them being in a dead dudes possession." :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

If they don't take the sword, then drop an identical sword in a chest (owned by nobody) or as a reward from a grateful villager, or give it to an angry orc who wants to murder 'em. Perhaps the orc even followed them into the tomb and picked up the sword they left behind. Maybe the sword is intelligent and compels the PCs to pick it up and wield it on a crusade against tomatoes. That's not really important. The important thing is that as a DM, you're supposed to keep the party up to their WBL, and if they end up having a smaller reward in one place, there should be a bigger reward waiting at some point down the line.

Or you could just not have a culture of burying the dead with weapons. All undead equipment was given to them by the evil necromancer that raised them for his army. Done.

[Hamste]

"I am better served with those shinnies being in my possession than I am with them being in a dead dudes possession." :smallwink:

You say as you take a Ghost's family weapon and armor while it is in the middle of an epic fight to kill an ethereal horror set to destroy the world.

[atemu1234]

You say as you take a Ghost's family weapon and armor while it is in the middle of an epic fight to kill an ethereal horror set to destroy the world.

We'll file that under the "DM being a Jerk" category...

[Emperor Tippy]

You say as you take a Ghost's family weapon and armor while it is in the middle of an epic fight to kill an ethereal horror set to destroy the world.

"Hmm, well that time I might have been mistaken. Oh well, thems the breaks." :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

You say as you take a Ghost's family weapon and armor while it is in the middle of an epic fight to kill an ethereal horror set to destroy the world.
That's a pretty decent plot hook, all things considered.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You say as you take a Ghost's family weapon and armor while it is in the middle of an epic fight to kill an ethereal horror set to destroy the world.

Well of course you kill the monster yourself so you get the loot and XP to boot. Then you kill the ghost because he's worth XP too.

[Ettina]

General Populace Graves:
Those buried here were good people. They want to see the world grow into a better place. If they need* my arms to wield they weapons**, then I humbly give myself to them. When my service is no longer needed I will return their weapons to their side.

*"need" is not meant as a loophole. It literally means need. If the world does not need the "graverobbing" then too bad.
**"weapons" meant broadly and with flair to represent objects used to further their goals.

Hero Graves:
Those buried here were heroes. They gave themselves to the cause of improving this world. Their deeds have blessed their tools as symbols to promote good in others. They would be grateful to see those symbols continue the great quest as they enjoy a well deserved rest.

What if it's the grave of Scrooge the selfish, who was Neutral-aligned and would hate the thought of anyone other than him having his bling?

[OldTrees1]

What if it's the grave of Scrooge the selfish, who was Neutral-aligned and would hate the thought of anyone other than him having his bling?

Move on to the next grave. His grave only matters if the mcguffin is there.

Alternatively: Borrow in exchange for serving his ends by making it even harder for anyone to take his stuff. Say borrow his spear to prevent the orcs from stealing his spear and shield.

[Flickerdart]

What if it's the grave of Scrooge the selfish, who was Neutral-aligned and would hate the thought of anyone other than him having his bling?
Leave a cheque.

[Necroticplague]

Easy. Utilitarianism. The stuff will likely be of little use just sitting in some morons grave/tomb. As long as you instead possessing it brings some good to the world, its ethical to grab it. The rare exception is ghosts, who might miss their equipment pretty sorely. However, that simply means that to detemine how ethical the stealing is, just do some simple weighted-average finding. ((Good possible)*(chance good will occur))-((bad produced by ghost losing equipment)*(chance of corpse belonging to a ghost)). If you get a positive number, then grab it.