Help with Vampire Clawlock

[Tryxx]

So, theorycrafting a Vampire Warlock BBEG, and I'm trying to take advantage of Eldritch Claws and Scorpion's Grasp, as both seem to benefit from Unarmed Optimization (plus Blood Drain and Energy Drain seem to be asking for it). ...however, I clearly need some help with optimizing, and don't want to spam the Q&A thread again requesting clarification. So, a couple questions based on the following:

Human Vampire Lord Warlock 16/Fighter 2
BAB +14
Strength 36
Amulet of Mighty Fists +5

Feats: Eldritch Claws, Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Beast Strike, Improved Natural Attack (claws), Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Improved Grapple, Grappling Blast, and Scorpion's Grasp

1a. Is this full attack chain correct?

Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +32/+27/+22 melee (2d6+18 plus 3d6+18 plus eldritch blast) and 2 eldritch claws +32 melee (3d6+18 plus eldritch blast) and slam +32 melee (1d6+11 plus energy drain)

1b. I understand that secondary natural attacks normally apply 1/2 your Strength modifier, but is Eldritch Claws an exception, as it does your "normal unarmed strike damage" plus eldritch blast?

Edit: Forgot to add in the damage bonus from the Amulet.

[KingAtomsk]

Soul Eater would be a super flavorful addition to the build

[Tryxx]

Soul Eater would be a super flavorful addition to the build

I agree, but the feat sink is a bit much for an already starved build, and it requires a living humanoid - I don't believe a vampire would get the benefits.

[Red Fel]

Alright, alright, you twisted my arm, I'll do math. Ugh. This is why I majored in humanities, people.

First, let's break down your feats and see what they give you: Eldritch Claws: Gain claws that deal Unarmed + EB damage. Beast Strike: Add claw damage to your unarmed strikes. For reference, that's Unarmed + (Unarmed + EB), or 2xUnarmed + EB. IUS: Foundational feat for unarmed combat. SUS: Unarmed damage increase. For a Warlock 16/ Fighter 2, that's 18th level, or 2d6. INA (claws): Increases the damage of your claws by one step. Since your claws don't deal damage measured in the traditional way, I'm pretty sure INA (claws) is useless here. Multiattack: Your secondary attack (the claws) takes only a -2 penalty, instead of a -5. Since your BAB is 14, your claws would ordinarily have a +9 to hit; this gives them +12. It's okay, but honestly it's only really a useful feat if you're making a lot of secondary natural attacks - you only make two. Improved Multiattack: Requires 3+ natural weapons. You only have two (claws, unarmed strikes) so you don't qualify. Tough luck. Wasted feat, anyway. Improved Grapple: Basis of grappling combat. Grappling Blast: Deal EB damage while grappling, then gain a bonus to continue grappling. This is a waste for two reasons. Go re-read Beast Strike. You already add your claw damage to your grapple damage, and your claw damage is Unarmed + EB. By contrast, Grappling Blast only adds EB, so it's worse. Grappling Blast adds a circumstance bonus to your grapple check equal to half of your EB damage. For Warlock 16, your EB deals 7d6, which averages 24.5. Half of that is 12. You'll get a +12 to your next grapple check. But at level 18, enemies who can't use Freedom of Movement or otherwise completely neutralize a grapple are uncommon. You're not doing yourself many favors with this one. Scorpion's Grasp: Grapple as a free action if you deal damage. This, I admit, is fun.

Okay, now to look at the actual math. For purposes of this exercise, I will not be calculating the various enhancement bonuses (e.g. AoMF, and you should have gotten a NoNW anyway), or Str bonuses to damage. I will not be calculating your BAB either. I will simply be assessing the damage by round. Let's begin.

Your BAB gives you three attacks. You also receive two claw attacks. Each unarmed strike deals 2xUnarmed + EB, or 2d6 + 2d6 + 7d6, or 11d6 total. Each. So assuming all three hit, that's 33d6 from your unarmed attacks. Your claw attacks each deal Unarmed + EB, or 2d6 + 7d6, 9d6 total. You get two, so that's 18d6. Added to your regular iterative attacks, that's 51d6, which is already quite obscene. Then you can add your various specials onto that.

You are correct that Eldritch Claws deals your "normal unarmed strike damage" plus EB. However, the Str bonus is not part of your "normal unarmed strike damage." It is something added on at the end of each hit. Thus, you would add your Str bonus to your iterative attacks, but only 1/2 your bonus to your claw attacks.

And get a NoNW. Much better than the AoMF for a primarily-unarmed-strike build.

[Tryxx]

Alright, alright, you twisted my arm, I'll do math. Ugh. This is why I majored in humanities, people.

First, let's break down your feats and see what they give you: INA (claws): Increases the damage of your claws by one step. Since your claws don't deal damage measured in the traditional way, I'm pretty sure INA (claws) is useless here. Improved Multiattack: Requires 3+ natural weapons. You only have two (claws, unarmed strikes) so you don't qualify. Tough luck. Wasted feat, anyway. Improved Grapple: Basis of grappling combat. Grappling Blast: Deal EB damage while grappling, then gain a bonus to continue grappling. This is a waste for two reasons. Go re-read Beast Strike. You already add your claw damage to your grapple damage, and your claw damage is Unarmed + EB. By contrast, Grappling Blast only adds EB, so it's worse. Grappling Blast adds a circumstance bonus to your grapple check equal to half of your EB damage. For Warlock 16, your EB deals 7d6, which averages 24.5. Half of that is 12. You'll get a +12 to your next grapple check. But at level 18, enemies who can't use Freedom of Movement or otherwise completely neutralize a grapple are uncommon. You're not doing yourself many favors with this one.

And get a NoNW. Much better than the AoMF for a primarily-unarmed-strike build.

I think you're correct that Improved Natural Attack may be a waste (which is ok, because 51d6 vs 57d6 isn't much), but I believe you forgot about the Vampire's slam, which would help qualify for Improved Multiattack. I didn't think enough about Grappling Blast - that's a downer, but opens up another feet slot.

And for some reason I'd totally missed the Necklace of Natural Weapons - that's pretty awesome.

Thanks!

[Urpriest]

I think you're correct that Improved Natural Attack may be a waste (which is ok, because 51d6 vs 57d6 isn't much), but I believe you forgot about the Vampire's slam, which would help qualify for Improved Multiattack. I didn't think enough about Grappling Blast - that's a downer, but opens up another feet slot.

And for some reason I'd totally missed the Necklace of Natural Weapons - that's pretty awesome.

Thanks!

Improved Natural Attack could be applied to your Unarmed Strikes instead. That would even allow you to "double-dip" it, if it affected your "normal unarmed strike damage".

[Red Fel]

I think you're correct that Improved Natural Attack may be a waste (which is ok, because 51d6 vs 57d6 isn't much), but I believe you forgot about the Vampire's slam, which would help qualify for Improved Multiattack. I didn't think enough about Grappling Blast - that's a downer, but opens up another feet slot.

And for some reason I'd totally missed the Necklace of Natural Weapons - that's pretty awesome.

Thanks!

You're right; I remembered that Vampires (for whatever reason) don't have a bite attack, but forgot that they gain a slam attack. That actually increases numbers - you can also perform a slam attack (in addition to your claws and unarmed strikes) each full-attack action.

Not much, but it's some.

The reason the NoNW is superior to the AoMF is that the NoNW allows you to not only add an enhancement bonus, but it also allows you to add actual enhancements - such as Flaming Burst, or Collision, or whatever you like. The downside is that any enhancement on the NoNW only applies to one natural weapon. Whereas the AoMF's bonus applies to all natural weapons across the board, you have to enhance a NoNW separately for each natural weapon you want impacted.

That said, since all of your attacks are focused around your unarmed strikes, that's really sufficient there.

The reason I was down on INA was that Eldritch Blast doesn't "step up" with size the way an ordinary natural weapon does. Natural weapons deal a certain die based on size, such as a 1d4 bite or a 1d6 slam. But your EB damage - and by extension, your EC damage - is independent of your size. It's based on your Warlock level. That's why I think INA doesn't function right.

That said...


Improved Natural Attack could be applied to your Unarmed Strikes instead. That would even allow you to "double-dip" it, if it affected your "normal unarmed strike damage".

A world of this. SUS increases your unarmed damage to 2d6. That's an average of 7, which is completely respectable. INA (unarmed strikes) works because unarmed strikes are a natural weapon, and it works great because one step up from 2d6 is 3d6 - an average of 10.5. Per hit. Let's math it again, shall we? With three iteratives of 2xUnarmed + EC, and two claws of Unarmed + EC, you're dealing a total of 8xUnarmed + 5xEC. That's 8x(3d6) + 5x(7d6), or 24d6 + 35d6, or 59d6, before counting modifiers or your slam attack. That's an average damage of 206.5 per turn. That, my friend, is criminal.