Nine rules questions answered by designer

[Merc_Kilsek]

Easy to read little page from a person that was playing at Gen Con that has some rules questions for Rodney Thompson, one of the designers of 5E. If nothing else thought some people would find the read interesting.

http://dmdavid.com/tag/9-more-fifth-edition-dd-rules-questions-answered-by-the-designers/

[Grynning]

your link is broke. can't find the right page either.

[Merc_Kilsek]

your link is broke. can't find the right page either.

Yeah, I mucked up. Should be fixed now.

[rlc]

I actually thought that most of these were common sense from my first reading of the rules, but good read nonetheless.

[Grynning]

Thanks. Read the article...nothing super enlightening but seems to provide an answer to the dreaded "halfling stealth" question.

[ambartanen]

Thanks. Read the article...nothing super enlightening but seems to provide an answer to the dreaded "halfling stealth" question.

It does? I got even more confused about it after reading the article.

[hawklost]

It does? I got even more confused about it after reading the article.

And which parts of the article confused you?

[Caelic]

The anti-hiding crowd will say "See? You can't hide when the enemy can see you. I saw you go behind that wall/ogre/tree. Therefore, you can't hide."

The pro-hiding crowd will say "See? The only time you definitely can't hide is when the enemy can see you. When I go behind that wall/ogre/tree, you can't see me anymore. Therefore, I can hide."

[Muenster Man]

The part where it says "the DM must rule on when a creature can hide and sneak based on what makes sense in the game world" seems pretty clear cut to me.

[ambartanen]

The part where it says "the DM must rule on when a creature can hide and sneak based on what makes sense in the game world" seems pretty clear cut to me.

The racial power of the halfling either allows them to hide every time or never (unless something exceptional happens). I used to think that it allowed them to always hide since that's what that very specific power says it does but now it turns out the rule was written... but they didn't have any particular intention for how it is supposed to work? Yes, I am very confused but not too interested since I intend to completely replace the power when I DM anyway.

[Yagyujubei]

so if you crit on a spell does it do max damage plus an additional dmg dice like with weapons? so an eldritch blast crit would do 10+1d10+modifier(with invocation) at level 2?

[hawklost]

so if you crit on a spell does it do max damage plus an additional dmg dice like with weapons? so an eldritch blast crit would do 10+1d10+modifier(with invocation) at level 2?

You don't get max damage on a Weapon when you Crit. You get to roll the Damage dice twice.

Example:
2d6 + 4 Weapon Normal would be
4d6 + 4 on Crit

1d12 + 1 Weapon Normal would be
2d12 + 1 on Crit

So your Edritch Blast would do 2d10 + Mod at lvl 2 on a Crit

[Grynning]

The max damage + a die was the rule in the playtest, and like some other things may return as an optional rule. Now it's just you roll all the dice again.

[Human Paragon 3]

so if you crit on a spell does it do max damage plus an additional dmg dice like with weapons? so an eldritch blast crit would do 10+1d10+modifier(with invocation) at level 2?

Crits don't maximize damage, you roll all the dice twice. So an attack that does 2d6+6 damage would do 4d6+6 on a crit.

[Yagyujubei]

The max damage + a die was the rule in the playtest, and like some other things may return as an optional rule. Now it's just you roll all the dice again.

ah I just assumed they didn't change that...wierd. that means critting with a max lvl eldritch blast would be crazy though lol. 8d10 dmg...although I guess you roll separately for each one so the chances of that are slim to nil

[Giant2005]

ah I just assumed they didn't change that...wierd. that means critting with a max lvl eldritch blast would be crazy though lol. 8d10 dmg...although I guess you roll separately for each one so the chances of that are slim to nil

Unless you are a level 3 Assassin!

[Tengu_temp]

Multi-classed characters only gain ability score increases when they reach the benefit levels in one of their classes. Although classes gain an ability score increase at fourth level, a character multi-classed to level 2 in two classes does not gain an ability score increase.

This is pants. Really pants.

[akaddk]

I think you are all missing the most mind-blowing revelation in this link: initiative is a Dexterity Check!

That changes so, so, so much.

[Muenster Man]

Yeah, I think that was discussed somewhere on this forum a little while ago. When I learned that, it definitely made the 7th level ability for Fighter Champions waaaaay better.

[Malifice]

The anti-hiding crowd will say "See? You can't hide when the enemy can see you. I saw you go behind that wall/ogre/tree. Therefore, you can't hide."

The pro-hiding crowd will say "See? The only time you definitely can't hide is when the enemy can see you. When I go behind that wall/ogre/tree, you can't see me anymore. Therefore, I can hide."

Seeing as you always need to go behind a wall/ogre/tree every single time you attempt to hide (unless youre invisible) isnt the statement 'you cant hide when someone can see you' a little... redundant in your interpretation?

[Malifice]

This is pants. Really pants.

Seems to indicate what many of us assumed for Warlock invocations also (class level not character level).

[akaddk]

Yeah, I think that was discussed somewhere on this forum a little while ago. When I learned that, it definitely made the 7th level ability for Fighter Champions waaaaay better.

Wow, yes, that's amazing.

Now I need to find ways in which I can boost my rogues Dexterity checks.

[Socko525]

"A divine focus can be emblazoned on a cleric’s shield, enabling the cleric to wield a weapon in the other hand and still cast spells. A wizard can hold an arcane focus in one hand and a weapon in another and still cast spells. A druid must hold mistletoe as an arcane focus, so druids must either stash their shield or their weapon to cast."

Not sure how somatic components come into play here. I didn't think anything of it until it says that a druid must hold the mistletoe and has to stash either the weapon or shield.

So does that mean there's little reason for a shield/one hand weapon cleric/paladin to take the War Caster feat?

[akaddk]

So does that mean there's little reason for a shield/one hand weapon cleric/paladin to take the War Caster feat?

Other than for advantage on Concentration checks, yeah, I'd say they have little reason to.

As for druids, the mistletoe is their holy symbol so I'm guessing they get lumped in with all other casters whereas clerics/paladins are under a special "specific" rule.

[MeeposFire]

"A divine focus can be emblazoned on a cleric’s shield, enabling the cleric to wield a weapon in the other hand and still cast spells. A wizard can hold an arcane focus in one hand and a weapon in another and still cast spells. A druid must hold mistletoe as an arcane focus, so druids must either stash their shield or their weapon to cast."

Not sure how somatic components come into play here. I didn't think anything of it until it says that a druid must hold the mistletoe and has to stash either the weapon or shield.

So does that mean there's little reason for a shield/one hand weapon cleric/paladin to take the War Caster feat?

A cleric would be able to cast a spell with verbal and material components (so long as they do not have a monetary value because if they do you need more than just your focus) but not somatic components. SO if you need to use somatic components or expensive material components (maybe unless you do not need to hold/manipulate those materials) then you would still need the feat I think.

[pwykersotz]

This is pants. Really pants.

I love it myself. With this plus the stat prereqs, a dip to Fighter for action Surge or to Barbarian for unarmored defense becomes an actual choice, not just a gimme. Both are good options, but neither is universally the best option.

[emeraldstreak]

mistletoe ruling is laughable

halfling stealth ruling effectively splits the community in two

[Person_Man]

Yeah, I think that was discussed somewhere on this forum a little while ago. When I learned that, it definitely made the 7th level ability for Fighter Champions waaaaay better.

"Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn’t already use your proficiency bonus. In addition, when you make a running long jump, the distance you can cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Strength modifier."

Initiative being a Dexterity check does make Champion somewhat better. But it's only a +1 to +3 bonus. That's +5-15%-ish (unless you can also somehow gain Advantage to your Initiative check and your enemies can't, in which case it's closer to +15-30%ish). That's nice, especially if you can kill an enemy on the first turn and deny them their action. But remember that pretty much every optimal Champion is going to be Str based, so that they can use a greatsword with their Extra Attacks and Improved Crits. So on average the Champion Fighter will still be acting after the Rogue, Monk, etc. It's also less useful then what you'd get from just taking the Alert Feat.


Question: Has anyone actually played a Fighter at high levels? The Fighter works fine at low-mid levels (though I found that it's really boring to play). But it seems like all of its mid-high level class abilities just duplicate his low level class abilities, while other classes get progressively more powerful high level abilities.


Separately: In my opinion the Stealth rules are just terrible. They basically just boil down to DM fiat. Which is fine, if that's the type of game you enjoy. But then don't create race and class abilities that create new opportunities for Stealth that are also completely determined by DM fiat. Because then the abilities basically have no meaning or purpose.

[Fwiffo86]

I see no problem with the stealth rules. They are no more or less wonky than any other edition. If the deciding factor by the rules is "can they see you" then I'm with the crowd that says "behind the wall is out of sight, I can hide". Why do you think ninja's carry smoky bombs?

The Warcaster feat for clerics - probably a waste of a feat. Which given the feats available, you're probably better off with stat increases instead.

So.... save throws.... for the Champion Fighter. Does that mean he gains half proficiency on his dexterity saves too? Since that's a check... and I'm AFB, so its STR and CON are the fighter's prof saves right? And half proficiency on all skills related to those abilities that he doesn't have?

Love the distinction between Class level and Character level. I feel this was a good decision. Adds additional cost to that option of multi-classing.

[Grynning]

The Warcaster feat for clerics - probably a waste of a feat. Which given the feats available, you're probably better off with stat increases instead.

So.... save throws.... for the Champion Fighter. Does that mean he gains half proficiency on his dexterity saves too? Since that's a check... and I'm AFB, so its STR and CON are the fighter's prof saves right? And half proficiency on all skills related to those abilities that he doesn't have?


First quote there - The interview said clerics can have a holy symbol on their shield, sure, but the designer pretty obviously forgot about the existence of somatic components, which require a hand free, and that is what the Warcaster feat gets around.

Fighters would not get that bonus on saving throws. Saving throws are not ability checks (neither are attack rolls); see the post in my sig, it's the first thing I address. Initiative is specifically called out as a dexterity check in the book is the reason why it works for that.

[Fwiffo86]

Fighters would not get that bonus on saving throws. Saving throws are not ability checks (neither are attack rolls); see the post in my sig, it's the first thing I address. Initiative is specifically called out as a dexterity check in the book is the reason why it works for that.

Very helpful! Thank you!

[Socko525]

Perhaps it was answered already, but in the same vain as the Champion Fighter, does that mean that the Jack of All Trades ability for Bards has the same effect on initiative?

[Person_Man]

Perhaps it was answered already, but in the same vain as the Champion Fighter, does that mean that the Jack of All Trades ability for Bards has the same effect on initiative?

I have no idea what the RAW is on this, but I hope not. Bard is already the most powerful class in 5E. No reason to make it stronger through unintentionally added bonuses.

[Socko525]

I have no idea what the RAW is on this, but I hope not. Bard is already the most powerful class in 5E. No reason to make it stronger through unintentionally added bonuses.

"Jack of All Trades: Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn't already include your proficiency bonus."

[JamesT]

I have no idea what the RAW is on this, but I hope not. Bard is already the most powerful class in 5E. No reason to make it stronger through unintentionally added bonuses.

Out of curiosity, why do you call them the most powerful class?

[Caelic]

Out of curiosity, why do you call them the most powerful class?


I'd certainly call them the best-rounded. Full ninth level spellcasting, the ability to cherry-pick spells from the spell lists of other classes, multiple attack capability (for a Valor bard), and Expertise--it all makes for a formidable package. The Bard may not be the strongest character in any one area, but he's strong in EVERY area.

[Soular]

I love it myself. With this plus the stat prereqs, a dip to Fighter for action Surge or to Barbarian for unarmored defense becomes an actual choice, not just a gimme. Both are good options, but neither is universally the best option.

I absolutely agree with you. It makes these choices actual decisions instead of no-brainers.

[Person_Man]

Out of curiosity, why do you call them the most powerful class?

Expertise, presumably for Perception and Stealth and maybe Persuasion. Floating bonuses to almost anything for you or allies. 1st through 9th level spells. The ability to cherry pick the best spells from any list. (Such as the best Paladin or Ranger spells before the Paladin or Ranger even gets access to them. And keep in mind that every previous edition of D&D has been heavily supported with splat books. I expect 5E to be similarly supported). Plus apparently Bards get half their Expertise bonus to Initiative, which is certainly not game breaking, but its a nice extra, since combat tends to be decided in the first 1-2 rounds, and most Bards will have high Dex anyway.

So the Bard can lean back and contribute with cantrips and/or attacks and/or Skills as needed. Not as great as builds which specialize in pure damage output or whatnot, but still useful. And then whenever a truly difficult encounter comes along, he will probably have a spell which resolves it, and the bonuses needed to give the party an extra edge. He's bad at nothing, and really awesome when he needs to be. The Bard is basically the Batman Wizard of 5E.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Plus apparently Bards get half their Expertise bonus to Initiative, which is certainly not game breaking, but its a nice extra, since combat tends to be decided in the first 1-2 rounds, and most Bards will have high Dex anyway.

I think you're confusing Jack of All Trades with Expertise there. Expertise doubles your prof bonus for ability checks with two Skill proficiencies. That's not so help me Initiative.

Jack of All Trades adds 1/2 proficiency to all checks you aren't adding proficiency to, thus an otherwise unmodded Dex check like Initiative.

[Theodoxus]

I think you are all missing the most mind-blowing revelation in this link: initiative is a Dexterity Check!

That changes so, so, so much.

How is that a revelation? Page 189 under Initiative states "...every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative." (bolded for emphasis)

[Merc_Kilsek]

How is that a revelation? Page 189 under Initiative states "...every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative." (bolded for emphasis)

People miss information that is printed in the rule book. Happens, no big deal.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Easy to get confused because most folks are going to think "roll for Initiative" as its own special check while "Dexterity check" sounds like a miscellaneous act.

[Person_Man]

RE: Initiative

My brain is filled with 20ish years of D&D rules from previous editions. The rules for 5E are different in a lot of important ways, but they use all of the same names from previous editions. This gets confusing. Its like going to the store and buying a container marked Oreos and then getting home and finding it filled with Mallomars.

[akaddk]

If a rogue attacks an enemy when emerging from a cover source, does he still gain benefit of stealth in the attack? Only if the rogue is still hidden when making the attack. -M
Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1900-D-D-5th-Edition-Sage-Advice-from-Designers-Mearls-Crawford#.VA4qPPmSybw#ixzz3ClWNBk7D

Lol.

[Yenek]

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1900-D-D-5th-Edition-Sage-Advice-from-Designers-Mearls-Crawford#.VA4qPPmSybw#ixzz3ClWNBk7D

Lol.

Well, he said before:

Rogue hidden behind tree. Can he shoot an arrow with advantage, or does stepping out negate it? Re-hide behind same tree after? DM's call - suggest atk with advantage, but disad to hide again. IMO if rogue sees target from hiding while hidden, can attack. -M


And the Multiclass Wizard copying issue has been adressed:

Can a MC Wizard 2/Cleric 18 learn a 3rd level spell, i.e fireball that he would find on is adventure? That character wouldn't be able to learn fireball, since he doesn't have enough levels in the wizard class. -J

[Brookshw]

Is that Darth Vader on a horse? I can't really tell without zooming in on the pic. Eh, probably not but close enough from a distance.

Anywho, thanks for the link. I'm still doing my research on the edition and deciding if I'm interested so good to see these little insights into the designers plans and mindset.

[Malifice]

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1900-D-D-5th-Edition-Sage-Advice-from-Designers-Mearls-Crawford#.VA4qPPmSybw#ixzz3ClWNBk7D

Lol.

Missed this:

hiding: attacking w/ ranged it says you give away your location, does this cancel hiding? Doesn't say you are "seen" or "heard". Yes, others are aware of you. -M

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1900-D-D-5th-Edition-Sage-Advice-from-Designers-Mearls-Crawford#.VA4qPPmSybw#ixzz3CvWOyO4i

Jack in the box Rogue is now hopefully dead.

[ambartanen]

Jack in the box Rogue is now hopefully dead.

Huh? They completely avoided saying anything that could be interpreted as a ruling on jack-in-the-box rogues. All that says is you are revealed when you attack (unless you have the Skulker feat) so you need to hide again.

[Malifice]

Huh? They completely avoided saying anything that could be interpreted as a ruling on jack-in-the-box rogues. All that says is you are revealed when you attack (unless you have the Skulker feat) so you need to hide again.

Yeah; guess I was just reading that in context of the text on hiding that states 'you cant hide when someone is watching you'.

[EvilAnagram]

Yeah; guess I was just reading that in context of the text on hiding that states 'you cant hide when someone is watching you'.

"Aware of your presence" and "staring at you" are not the same thing.

[ambartanen]

"Aware of your presence" and "staring at you" are not the same thing.

Let's not start that argument once again. Whoever was going to be convinced one way or the other already has been. My point is the designer haven't made a ruling so it's still up to individual DMs to clear up that whole mess.