PDA

View Full Version : Dispelling a continous effect?



ken-do-nim
2007-03-08, 08:16 PM
Let's say I go through with my dastardly plan for my monk to purchase an item that grants the shield spell continously (level 1 spell x level 1 caster x 2000 gp for continuous effect = 2000 gp, or 4000 gp if I don't want it in a slotted item). I figure the DM will throw a hissy fit, unless I tell him that it is not as powerful as an item that flat out gives a +4 shield bonus because if dispel magic is cast on my character or my character is in the area of effect, at level 1 it is certain to get dispelled.

However, how long would it remain dispelled? 1d4 rounds? Would it require a standard action on my part to reactivate it? What do you think?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-08, 08:19 PM
Um. 1d4 rounds. Thats how long any continuous item that is dispelled stays dispelled for.

kamikasei
2007-03-08, 08:24 PM
However, how long would it remain dispelled? 1d4 rounds? Would it require a standard action on my part to reactivate it? What do you think?


Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm):

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;) rounds, after which the item recovers on its own.

As far as I understand things, only a dispel targeting a magic item can suppress the magic it generates. An area dispel, or a dispel targeting the creature rather than its item, can only remove spells that have been cast.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-08, 08:25 PM
Um. 1d4 rounds. Thats how long any continuous item that is dispelled stays dispelled for.

But that's only when the dispel magic spell targets a specific item. The item isn't being targeted in the case I described, the character is.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-08, 08:26 PM
Then the item isn't dispelled. At all. Ever

ken-do-nim
2007-03-08, 08:27 PM
Then the item isn't dispelled. At all. Ever

Woohoo! I want my 4000 gp shoelace of shielding!

Edit: No same DM would ever allow this.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-08, 08:28 PM
That is why DM's don't allow custom magic items very often.

And your better off with a use activated (activation is wearer is unshielded) item that casts the shield spell on he wearer. The cost is the same but it gets around a couple of pesky rules.

First, a continuous shield item would use the shield bonus to ac pricing of an item and cost like 40,000 GP. A use activated item that casts a spell doesn't have to follow that rule. It's not acting like the spell it is casting the spell. A distinct difference.

Second, use activated items can act at any time even when its not the wearers turn. They activate whenever the use condition is met. This means that even if dispelled the shield will come back before anyone can take advantage of it not being there.

Kantolin
2007-03-08, 08:32 PM
Personally, I base items that give numerical bonuses off of the bonuses.

So a continuous +4 Shield bonus item would cost something around what a +4 bonus to armour would cost. That solves a lot of overpowered combinations off the bat, especially true strike. From there, it's easy to finagle something cheaper if it's too underpowered, or more expensive if it's overpowered.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-08, 08:45 PM
Second, use activated items can act at any time even when its not the wearers turn. They activate whenever the use condition is met. This means that even if dispelled the shield will come back before anyone can take advantage of it not being there.

??? I thought use-activated means the user uses a standard action to activate it. You know, like using say the cape of the mountebank.

Well, at any rate, let's put this all together. I get a ring which does the following:
polymorph @ 9th level 1/day
shield 3/day
divine power 1/day
divine favor @ 9th level 3/day
That should cover a monk's weaknesses pretty well, I think. Lemme see how much this will cost:

Polymorph: 9 x 4 x 1800 / 5 = 12,960
shield 3/day: (1 x 1 x 1800 x 3 / 5) x 1.5 = 1620
divine power: (7 x 4 x 1800 / 5) x 1.5 = 15,120
divine favor: (9 x 1 x 1800 x 3 / 5) x 1.5 = 14,580
Grand total: 44,280 gp

I think that's money well spent.

Aximili
2007-03-08, 08:56 PM
Sloted items must have a single caster level.

Double it's price to make it unsloted, and it will be ok.

Jasdoif
2007-03-08, 09:04 PM
??? I thought use-activated means the user uses a standard action to activate it. You know, like using say the cape of the mountebank.No, that's command word activation.

Use-activation may be a standard action, or might not be an action at all because it's part of another action. A good example of that last one is Gloves of Dexterity, simply putting on the gloves activates them. I don't think you can personally specify what qualifies as "use" when creating the item, though.


Sloted items must have a single caster level.

Double it's price to make it unsloted, and it will be ok.Where does it say that? I thought all magic items had a single caster level, which has to be high enough for all their effects.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-08, 09:07 PM
Use-activation may be a standard action, or might not be an action at all because it's part of another action. A good example of that last one is Gloves of Dexterity, simply putting on the gloves activates them. I don't think you can personally specify what qualifies as "use" when creating the item, though.
Yes you can.

Aximili
2007-03-08, 09:44 PM
Where does it say that? I thought all magic items had a single caster level, which has to be high enough for all their effects.
The thing is: when the item doesn't use up an item slot, giving it x and y effects is exactly the same price as creating two items (one with x and one with y).

So you can just enchant two separate items, link them togeter and call them one item. Or you can enchant separate parts of the same item.

So, instead of enchanting your yoyo with three spells (and having to use the same CL), just enchant one side of it with one spell, the other side with another, and the string with another (each with it's own CL).

ken-do-nim
2007-03-09, 03:42 PM
Sloted items must have a single caster level.

Double it's price to make it unsloted, and it will be ok.

Alright, I think I have it. Two rings: one of arcane origin and the other divine. They will grant the personal spells that all the other classes (like say, monk) get so jealous over.

Ring of Divine PowerUps:
Caster level 9th
Divine Favor 3/day
Divine Power 2/day
Righteous Might 1/day

Ring of Arcane PowerUps:
Caster level 9th
Shield 3/day
Mirror Image 2/day
Greater Blink 1/day

Can anyone think of any more ideal spells to put into these without driving the price too much higher? Speaking of which, when I get some time later I'll calculate how much these rings would cost.

PS: Greater blink would be *so* cool for my monk, because then she could spring attack through walls!

Indon
2007-03-09, 03:53 PM
Wouldn't Polymorph be a good spell for the Ring of Arcane Poweruppityness?

Then, your monk could be a T-Rex who spring attacks through walls!

Aximili
2007-03-09, 04:12 PM
Can anyone think of any more ideal spells to put into these without driving the price too much higher?
There are those basic but important ones: see invisibility, dimension door, feather fall, etc.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-09, 04:17 PM
Wouldn't Polymorph be a good spell for the Ring of Arcane Poweruppityness?

Then, your monk could be a T-Rex who spring attacks through walls!

Well since the party wizard could cast polymorph on me if he ever learns the darn spell, I figured it wasn't necessary. Also, if the DM ever decides polymorph is broken, he'll take my ring away.

See invisibility would be nice, yes.
Dimension door: for a rogue, absolutely. For my monk, she's already got abundant step 1/day. Good for a sun school monk though!
Feather fall: well there's slow fall, which isn't quite as good because you have to be near a wall and there's a limitation to how far you fall, but it's considered a major monk class feature (snicker, snicker)

Aximili
2007-03-09, 04:28 PM
Well, those were general suggestions, focusing on a monk would change the list a bit ...
Though I'd still go with feather fall and then just find an alternate class ability for slow fall (it's an ability that never reaches the equivalent of a 2000gp item).

OK, my personal preferences.
Mindblank
Comprehend Languages
Endure Elements (silly, but extremely cheap if 1/day)
Feather Fall
Fly
Freedom of Movement
Knock

Hyfigh
2007-03-09, 05:19 PM
At caster level 1 it'll be a cinch to dispell, even if only for 1d4 rounds. Isn't there a Mordikanes that will remove the magic permanently anyways? At CL1 I can't imagine that would even require a roll other than to not fail...

Saph
2007-03-09, 07:16 PM
And your better off with a use activated (activation is wearer is unshielded) item that casts the shield spell on he wearer. The cost is the same but it gets around a couple of pesky rules.

Yes, it does. The first rule that it gets around is the "This will be allowed in my game" rule, and the second rule that it gets around is "I will listen to this player's custom magic item requests ever again." You WILL get banned from designing custom items if you try and pull scams like this.

Pricing-wise: The nearest item to this is the Ring of Force Shield. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#forceShield) That gives a permanent +2 AC shield bonus that can be activated/deactivated as a free action. It costs 8500, or the bonus squared x2 + 500.

So a +4 shield bonus should cost you around . . . 32500, plus whatever you price immunity to magic missiles at. A Brooch of Shielding is 1500, but that only absorbs a total of 101 points. So double that price, and we get 3000. So your ring (or whatever it is) should cost about 35500 gold. Multiply that by x1.5 if you want it in a different body slot, or x2 if you want it unslotted, like an ioun stone.

Too expensive, and disappointing? I know. But here's the thing - the custom magic item creation rules are suggestions. Very, very general suggestions. That's why it says 'Estimating GP Values' on that table, rather than 'Calculating GP Values'. There are lots of abuses you can make if you take them too literally, which is why no sane DM will allow any custom item without checking it first.

The best way to design a custom magic item is to work out the price the 'Estimating' table gives you and then ask: "Is this more powerful for its cost than the magic items in the SRD?" If the answer is yes, your DM should increase the cost or forbid the item.

- Saph

ken-do-nim
2007-03-09, 07:47 PM
Yes, it does. The first rule that it gets around is the "This will be allowed in my game" rule, and the second rule that it gets around is "I will listen to this player's custom magic item requests ever again." You WILL get banned from designing custom items if you try and pull scams like this.

Pricing-wise: The nearest item to this is the Ring of Force Shield. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#forceShield) That gives a permanent +2 AC shield bonus that can be activated/deactivated as a free action. It costs 8500, or the bonus squared x2 + 500.

So a +4 shield bonus should cost you around . . . 32500, plus whatever you price immunity to magic missiles at. A Brooch of Shielding is 1500, but that only absorbs a total of 101 points. So double that price, and we get 3000. So your ring (or whatever it is) should cost about 35500 gold. Multiply that by x1.5 if you want it in a different body slot, or x2 if you want it unslotted, like an ioun stone.

Too expensive, and disappointing? I know. But here's the thing - the custom magic item creation rules are suggestions. Very, very general suggestions. That's why it says 'Estimating GP Values' on that table, rather than 'Calculating GP Values'. There are lots of abuses you can make if you take them too literally, which is why no sane DM will allow any custom item without checking it first.

The best way to design a custom magic item is to work out the price the 'Estimating' table gives you and then ask: "Is this more powerful for its cost than the magic items in the SRD?" If the answer is yes, your DM should increase the cost or forbid the item.

- Saph

Saph, you are a very reasonable DM. Now let's say I don't go for continuous shield. Just an item that say lets me cast it 3/day (I guess for a minute at a time). How much for that?

Counterpower
2007-03-09, 08:26 PM
At caster level 1 it'll be a cinch to dispell, even if only for 1d4 rounds. Isn't there a Mordikanes that will remove the magic permanently anyways? At CL1 I can't imagine that would even require a roll other than to not fail...

Mordenkainen's disjunction. Bane of magic. Instantly kills all spells and spell-like effects, and forces magic items to make a Will save or become normal items. It even has a 1% chance per caster level to disjoin artifacts or antimagic fields. All of those hit everything in a 40ft radius. And it has no somatic component. Then again, you need a level 17 wizard to cast that 9th level spell.

As for dispel magic, the DC for a CL 1 effect is 12. The lowest level wizard that could cast dispel magic (7th) thus has a 20% chance of failing. At 10th level, which is when dispel magic maxes out, he would only have a 5% chance of failing. Greater dispel magic won't fail unless a 1 is an automatic failure.

marjan
2007-03-09, 08:36 PM
Saph, you are a very reasonable DM. Now let's say I don't go for continuous shield. Just an item that say lets me cast it 3/day (I guess for a minute at a time). How much for that?

That would probably cost as suggested by the table: 1(CL)x1(spell lvl)x1800x3(charges per day)/5

I'm too lazy to come with actual number.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-09, 09:53 PM
That would probably cost as suggested by the table: 1(CL)x1(spell lvl)x1800x3(charges per day)/5

I'm too lazy to come with actual number.

Great! I'll take a dozen.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-09, 11:48 PM
My DM houseruled in a form of MDJ which merely did a targeted dispel on everything within it's area. As a sort of compromise between normal dispelling and the original "oh you played a fighter, the most item dependent class in the game ... lets attack you on your weakest save and take all of them away" MDJ. Which a lot of DMs rightfully avoid (basically it makes the game not fun for low willsave characters, getting taken out for a fight or even a live at high level is more easily overcome than loosing all your items).

Saph
2007-03-10, 06:21 AM
Saph, you are a very reasonable DM. Now let's say I don't go for continuous shield. Just an item that say lets me cast it 3/day (I guess for a minute at a time). How much for that?

That should cost much, much less. The big difference is that this takes a standard action to use, which brings it in line with the actual shield spell. (The reason the Ring of Force Shield is so ridiculously expensive is the free action activation / permanent duration part).

So the formula gives you: 1800 x 3 / 5, which is 1080 gold.

Doesn't seem that unreasonable to me - it's no more than a character could get by using a wand. Remember, though, that this assumes it's in the 'appropriate body slot' (whatever that is - ring maybe?). If you want it in a different slot, you'll have to multiply the price by 1.5.

It'll take a standard action to activate, but that's not such a big deal - just activate it on the first round of combat, and move up. It'll last 10 rounds.

- Saph

ken-do-nim
2007-03-10, 08:21 AM
Okay it's time to tally up the price of these 2 rings:

Ring of Divine PowerUps:
Caster level 9th
Divine Favor 3/day (9*1*1800) * 3/5 * 1.5 = 14,580
Divine Power 2/day (9*4*1800) * 2/5 = 25,920
Righteous Might 1/day (9*5*1800) * 1/5 * 1.5 = 24,300
Total: 64,800 gp

Ring of Arcane PowerUps:
Caster level 9th
Shield 3/day (9*1*1800) * 3/5 * 1.5 = 14,580
See Invisible 1/day (9*2*1800) * 1/5 * 1.5 = 9,720
Mirror Image 2/day (9*2*1800) *2/5 * 1.5 = 19,440
Greater Blink 1/day (9*5*1800) *1/5 = 16,200
Total: 59,940 gp

Total for both rings: 124,740 gp

Is there any DM out there who would have a problem with this? (Except for the relative ease of dispelling, these rings would make a character like a monk or rogue much more competitive)

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-10, 12:41 PM
You forgot to account for multiple separate abilities on the same item.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-10, 03:21 PM
You forgot to account for multiple separate abilities on the same item.

Sure I did. See all those * 1.5s in my calculations? On the clerical item, it is divine power 2/day that it started with. On the arcane item, it is greater blink. All the other powers are * 1.5.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-10, 03:23 PM
doh. didn't look at your numbers close enough.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-10, 03:36 PM
Is there any DM out there who would have a problem with this? (Except for the relative ease of dispelling, these rings would make a character like a monk or rogue much more competitive)
I'd allow it, for the most part ... though I wouldn't allow more than 2 command word abilities per item (IMO slot pressure is an integral part of the way items should work ... if you want slotless you can pay for it).

I'd even allow continuous shield for 6K, although it would take up an item slot all of itself.

Saph
2007-03-10, 05:01 PM
Ring of Divine PowerUps:

Ring of Arcane PowerUps:

Total for both rings: 124,740 gp

Is there any DM out there who would have a problem with this? (Except for the relative ease of dispelling, these rings would make a character like a monk or rogue much more competitive)

I think it should probably be OK, though I might hesitate over the Divine Power and Righteous Might ones. But that's more because those spells are borderline broken in the first place.

The only issue would be finding a wizard and cleric willing to make this stuff. Between them they'd cost 5000 XP, and over two months of solid crafting time. Finding a wizard and a cleric with the Forge Ring feats willing to spend that XP and take that long might not be simple. DM's call, though.

- Saph

Aximili
2007-03-11, 09:17 PM
One could also say that you need the god's "permission" to actually cast Divine Power on yourself. But that's per context and not RAW.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-11, 09:30 PM
I think it should probably be OK, though I might hesitate over the Divine Power and Righteous Might ones. But that's more because those spells are borderline broken in the first place.

The only issue would be finding a wizard and cleric willing to make this stuff. Between them they'd cost 5000 XP, and over two months of solid crafting time. Finding a wizard and a cleric with the Forge Ring feats willing to spend that XP and take that long might not be simple. DM's call, though.

- Saph

In any case, it sure beats spending 200,000 gp on a major ring of spell storing which could store one divine favor (only giving +1), one divine power, and one righteous might (and which you also have to buddy up to the party cleric for because it eats his spell slots).

Clementx
2007-03-12, 12:30 PM
Okay it's time to tally up the price of these 2 rings...Total for both rings: 124,740 gp

Is there any DM out there who would have a problem with this? (Except for the relative ease of dispelling, these rings would make a character like a monk or rogue much more competitive)

You should compare the estimated cost by the formula to the mechanical effects of the spell. Those spells have a lot of +Xs mixed in, as well as duplicating other effects. A command-word Ring of Shield works ok by the formula, because the effect is small in magnitude, and Saph compared it to another magic item for scale. A command-word item of any 9th level spell, or a whole pack of lvl4 spells, outstrips the formula in effect, stacking, and those non-numerical bonuses.

Your outcry at the system comes from comparing it to a Ring of Spellstoring. Well, that is the next step of the system. You see that it is much much better than a published item- so raise the price. They are guidelines meant to help quantify what a lvlX spell effect is worth, especially when there isn't a simple numerical bonus. Ring of Invisibility lets you know how much a really good effect provided by a lvl3 spell can be, for instance.

The pricing system is fine. Following only parts of it literally makes broken items.

Fixer
2007-03-12, 12:40 PM
As a GM I wouldn't see a problem with those items or their relative costs. I would round them up to the nearest 1000gp, myself, though.

marjan
2007-03-12, 01:14 PM
I think the formula works fine for command word items. The only problem you may see is with relative power of spell compared to the level of spell but that is problem with spell not the formula. And ring of spell storing is more expensive because it allows more flexibility. So the price is fine though rounding it up to the nearest 1000gp is ok for the sake of easier calculation.
And the ring of invisibility is at will so that is where its cost comes from.

HotSake
2007-03-12, 01:54 PM
Did you forget the footnote that says to multiply the cost depending on the duration of the spell?

ken-do-nim
2007-03-12, 02:00 PM
Did you forget the footnote that says to multiply the cost depending on the duration of the spell?

The footnote is for continuous item effects.

At any rate, another poster said it right. What it comes right down to is that the shield spell giving a +4 shield bonus as a 1st level spell is kinda broken. This rarely comes up as an issue because wizards & sorcerers have a bad ac to start with, shield & mage armor just bring them up to par. But as the DM, I often give a monster a level or two of sorcerer so it can cast mage armor, shield, and protection from good on itself. A nice +10 bonus to the armor class.

I'm sure no one would complain if I got an item that did Tenser's floating disc 3/day.

Saph
2007-03-12, 02:07 PM
At any rate, another poster said it right. What it comes right down to is that the shield spell giving a +4 shield bonus as a 1st level spell is kinda broken. This rarely comes up as an issue because wizards & sorcerers have a bad ac to start with, shield & mage armor just bring them up to par.

Well, kind of. But since you need to spend an action to cast shield, and it only lasts 1 minute/level, it isn't quite as good as it looks. If you know the enemy's there, why not cast a spell to knock them out, or to get yourself out of danger, instead? And if you don't know the enemy's there, how will you be able to get the shield spell up in time?

Thing is, unless you're playing at very low levels, if you have time to cast shield you usually have time to cast something that gives you flight or invisibility instead, which will make you much harder to hit than a +4 to AC would. Shield is only really good when you have time to buff up before a fight, and generally the fights where you really need AC are the ones where you have the least buffing time.

- saph

HotSake
2007-03-12, 02:09 PM
Shield, as a spell, is fine. If your wizard wants to burn a spell slot and his first turn raising his armor class, more power to him. I've found that a high magical AC is not a big deal on a caster. It's broken as a 4000gp slotless item, but that's a result of abusing the magic item creation rules.

Talya
2007-03-12, 03:15 PM
Thank the gods for Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

Aquillion
2007-03-12, 03:32 PM
My DM houseruled in a form of MDJ which merely did a targeted dispel on everything within it's area. As a sort of compromise between normal dispelling and the original "oh you played a fighter, the most item dependent class in the game ... lets attack you on your weakest save and take all of them away" MDJ. Which a lot of DMs rightfully avoid (basically it makes the game not fun for low willsave characters, getting taken out for a fight or even a live at high level is more easily overcome than loosing all your items).
Hmm... but MDJ's item-quashing power is pretty important for balance in some situations, as noted above.

How's this for a solution if you find MDJ too nasty? Make a second spell, Mordenkainen's Restoration, which is also 9th level, costs a bit of xp, takes a day to cast, and restores the power of a (non-artifact) object dispelled by MDJ? That way, MDJ can still smack around players that depend too heavily on items, without being the "You're screwed forever and ever and would've been better off dying" spell.

Or you could houserule MDJ requiring a fort save for attended items instead of a will save (The, um, robustness of your body protects your items. Or something.)

PinkysBrain
2007-03-12, 10:02 PM
Hmm... but MDJ's item-quashing power is pretty important for balance in some situations, as noted above.
IMO, no it isn't ... if you have been monte haul it's your own fault ... and punishing the players among your group with low will saves while leaving the ones which are actually the most powerful alone will only make things worse.

If you want to balance it turn it into a reflex save, say tendrils shoot out of the center of the AoE destroying magic items wherever they touch them (the CoDzillas have to feel the pain too).

marjan
2007-03-12, 11:21 PM
IMO, no it isn't ... if you have been monte haul it's your own fault ... and punishing the players among your group with low will saves while leaving the ones which are actually the most powerful alone will only make things worse.

If you want to balance it turn it into a reflex save, say tendrils shoot out of the center of the AoE destroying magic items wherever they touch them (the CoDzillas have to feel the pain too).


Why not just supres it for 1d4 days. You are still screwed but not better dead.

Aximili
2007-03-13, 05:04 PM
How's this for a solution if you find MDJ too nasty? Make a second spell, Mordenkainen's Restoration, which is also 9th level, costs a bit of xp, takes a day to cast, and restores the power of a (non-artifact) object dispelled by MDJ? That way, MDJ can still smack around players that depend too heavily on items, without being the "You're screwed forever and ever and would've been better off dying" spell.

Making a 9th level spell useful exclusively for fixing what's been done by a rare 9th level spell is already kind of weak. Put in an XP cost and it's completely unfair, specially considering that MDJ costs absolutely nothing.

I like the idea of supressing for 1d4 days.