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SeekerInTheNight
2007-03-08, 08:24 PM
So I'm pretty sure by now everyone knows that unlike man, the dog is not (necessarily) necromancy's best friend. They're warm, fuzzy, living, and worst of all tend to run off with parts of your army.

So pound-for-pound what's the most useful revenant for the inquiring Necromancer to have under his thumb?

((For those in need of a refresher, the maximum un-enhanced number of undead you can control is 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level.))


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So how much exactly does a skeleton weigh? And what kinda space do they take up? We're talking average human here, nothing special.

EDIT2: MM does not in fact list the weight of your average skeleton.
EDIT3: Wikipedia lists the human skeleton as contributing to 20% of the total body mass, TheOOB continues with this.

Hmm, assume the average human skeleton weighs about 40lbs. Spread out pretty widely on the ground it would take a 5'square, but I'd imagine you could fit half a dozen in a 5'cube should you not care how squished together they are.


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So I'm building a necromancer for an arena campaign when it occurs to me, hey, what if there aren't any bones in the ground? So I pull out my books to start looking through and to my dismay there doesn't seem to be anything that facilitates the animating of the dead unless you're already chilling in a graveyard. =/

Does anyone know of something that would help a poor corpse-less necromancer out or am I going to have to homebrew this?

EDIT1: Words of Wisdom from Payne.


Have a rotating shelf with hangers for skeletons, have it drawn by zombie horse/bulls/trolls. Maybe an attendee (undead or not) to dispense the army-in-a-van.
Have a handy wand of animate dead.
Cast animate every time you loose enough troops. (Maybe use improved invisibility if you are afraid to be taken out by smart enemies)
Voila: undead army.

In case of trouble use Invisibility to undead and animate all undead you can. Even uncontrolled they will not attack you and eventually you can re-gain control of the few remaining ones after the fight.

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Here's another: against clerics within an opposing force, Build bone golems or animate corpses with animate objects. Send them first so they will suck up some of their rebuke/turn before they catch on (or get hacked to bits.)


And words of wisdom from Krimm, whose Necrolock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30544) PrC inspired this thread.


Well, I have an idea, but it would require a somewhat large amount of money and a little DM approval. But what I have in mind is your character buys a portable hole and just packs it with corpses, or better yet the previously animated dead.

Further discussion of this idea with friends and fellow DMs has resulted in the following data.

Your average Type I Bag of Holding carries about six full skeletons at 40lbs a pop (II = 12, III = 25, IV = 37). Keep a portable hole with you (Just not in the Bag of Holding... please...) ready to be slapped on the ground. When your ready to start raising, place the hole and empty the contents of the bag of holding into it. Pick the hole back up and viola! Instant graveyard.

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Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-03-08, 08:27 PM
So I'm building a necromancer for an arena campaign when it occurs to me, hey, what if there aren't any bones in the ground? So I pull out my books to start looking through and to my dismay there doesn't seem to be anything that facilitates the animating of the dead unless you're already chilling in a graveyard. =/

Does anyone know of something that would help a poor corpse-less necromancer out or am I going to have to homebrew this?
Well, I have an idea, but it would require a somewhat large amount of money and a little DM approval. But what I have in mind is your character buys a portable hole and just packs it with corpses, or better yet the previously animated dead.

JaronK
2007-03-08, 08:28 PM
Planar Binding, or a Candle of Invocation. Summon a big bad outsider, kill him, and you get a very nice corpse. Outsiders make great corpses anyway.

JaronK

Ranis
2007-03-08, 08:28 PM
Well, there are plenty of other things that necromancers can do aside from just making undead. Negative energy damage and the like is nifty in a pinch, Armor of Darkness is pretty sweet.

And if all else fails, then you can win your first match with ingenuity, then you have your first zombie to make more with :P

SeekerInTheNight
2007-03-08, 08:32 PM
Holy crap its Krimm!

^^ Coincidentally enough, I'm using your Necrolock PrC.

I'll look into all of that, sounds like right proper ideas.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-03-08, 08:37 PM
Holy crap its Krimm!

^^ Coincidentally enough, I'm using your Necrolock PrC.

I'll look into all of that, sounds like right proper ideas.
Wow, I feel cool. Now I'm curious about who else is using what other of my various PrC's...

TheOOB
2007-03-08, 08:45 PM
As a necromancer creating that first corpse shouldn't be a real problum.

It's important to note what kinda of necromancer you are, arcane, divine, or dread, as they each act differently. If your a wizard necromancer you really shouldn't focus on undead minions, they are nice really, but you could be spending the same spell to kill someone.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-03-08, 08:49 PM
I'm this kind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30544) of Necromancer, compliments of Krimm. ^^ Undead minions are definately the way to go.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-03-08, 09:21 PM
Just so you know I made a very slight alteration to Greater Dark blast, to remove any risk of pure cheese.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-03-08, 09:42 PM
The 3 rounds temp hp thing?

EDIT: Ooooh, multiple don't stack. That's actually a pretty good fix.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-03-09, 01:16 AM
And we're back with a new question in the first post.

TheOOB
2007-03-09, 01:33 AM
Hmm, assume the average human skeleton weighs about 40lbs. Spread out pretty widely on the ground it would take a 5'square, but I'd imagine you could fit half a dozen in a 5'cube should you not care how squished together they are.

Sardia
2007-03-09, 07:50 AM
The best way to transport a skeleton is much like the best way to transport pork in the age before refrigeration-- keep it in its original, mobile container until you're ready to use it.
In a word, hirelings. Dumb ones.

adanedhel9
2007-03-09, 08:14 AM
If you have access to Libris Mortis, there are several summon undead spells there. They work pretty much exaclty like the summon monster spells, but they're necromancy and only summon undead.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-03-09, 12:53 PM
=3 *Goes to Borders, grabs a copy of LM, copies the summon undead spell to scrolls, discretely puts it back.*

Sardia, while that makes good sense it is difficult to transport hirelings in my situation. >_> This wouldn't be a problem if conventional means of providing my own bones were unuseable.

Besides, if I had spare hireling space I'd just use it to enlist more undead. xD

Payne
2007-03-09, 01:21 PM
I havent been able to implement this with my necromancer yet, buut you could.
Ever seen the "robot racks" vehicules in Star Wars: Phantom menace?

Have a rotating shelf with hangers for skeletons, have it drawn by zombie horse/bulls/trolls. Maybe an attendee (undead or not) to dispense the army-in-a-van.
Have a handy wand of animate dead.
Cast animate every time you loose enough troops. (Maybe use improved invisibility if you are afraid to be taken out by smart enemies)
Voila: undead army.

In case of trouble use Invisibility to undead and animate all undead you can. Even uncontrolled they will not attack you and eventually you can re-gain control of the few remaining ones after the fight.


...
Yeah my resume does include "played necromancers way to much". :p

Sardia
2007-03-09, 01:22 PM
Shrink item?

SeekerInTheNight
2007-03-09, 01:28 PM
El oh el Payne, that's all I have to say. ^^

I'll update this with another question soon, its been a pretty fun topic so far.

Payne
2007-03-09, 01:37 PM
You're welcome Seeker.
Unlike magicians, I want to share my secrets of the trade.
I want people to fear necromancers, to put back the "holy mother of GAwd" into the mouths of their opponents.

Here's another: against clerics within an opposing force, Build bone golems or animate corpses with animate objects. Send them first so they will suck up some of their rebuke/turn before they catch on (or get hacked to bits.)

SeekerInTheNight
2007-03-09, 04:40 PM
That's sneaky... I'm going to have to look into golem building.'

EDIT: And with that, the new question is up.

its_all_ogre
2007-03-09, 04:49 PM
cleric with death domain. go master of shrouds PrC.
you get to summon incorporeal undead(shadows) touch attacks drain strength......kill dragons in no time!

SeekerInTheNight
2007-03-09, 05:05 PM
Fun stuff, shadows. But can any other class summon them? Would the inquiring necromancer need to purchase scrolls, wands, a copy of LM, or services?

Deus Mortus
2007-03-09, 08:52 PM
You can always use a simlucarum (sp?) spell to copy your own booty, animate it and voila, you're your own spell component!

Payne
2007-03-10, 01:05 AM
Me and my GM build a Summon undead list before they made the spells (and I came up with it 8 years before it came into play). All kinds of undead are included in the lists (official or homemade) including incorporeal ones. You just go according to challenge rating.

/Insert: "Oh look! Friendly zombies attacking our enemies from behind." works well on the party's Paladin. Make sure to remind the player that his character has no idea what a Summon Undead spell sounds like. / end insert

Later on (inevitably) just tell him you'd rather see soulless corpse be destroyed in combat rather than your friends, allies or the innocent. "They're just tools; things." works on other party members too. :D

Payne
2007-03-10, 01:25 AM
On the other topic.

Pound for pound, the best undead?
weights... 1/1000th of a gram.

Incorporeal undead are killers.
PC have to be masters of all trades. They have to have quick access to as many energy types of attacks in case of any eventual foe with elemental preferences/weakness. They need all kinds of weapon material/spells/class ability to survive adventuring.

Monsters don't.

No monster is ever going to pack a Ghost touch weapon and rarely will you have NPCs that will. GM are stingy when it comes to leaving magic weapons to his goons (they usually end in PCs hands).
Skillful use of concealment trough walls will insure that magical monsters will still be surprised flat-footed every round they get attacked.

Level-draining undead are only really good vs NPCs. (make sure to remind the GM of the class abilities they loose).

I'd put my money on a Shadow anyday ... or night
But ST drain is good against average-sized foes, bigger ones will take a while to fall. However that will reduce their damage capabilities immensely.

IOTA: There is no real good answer here.
It all depends on the situation. Just the level involved gives it too many variables.

Low levels: BIG (lots of HP & damage infliction)
Mid-low levels: Special abilities or swarms (Ghouls, lots of skeletons of even dogs)
Mid levels: Incorporeal (see above)
High-Mids: Swarms with special abilities (Laugh at their saving throws when they have to make 20 of them against ghouls)
High levels: Very tricky (see my tactics above, stack magic items and a few special creations)