Wizard 18/??? 2

[Giant2005]

The Wizard capstone is pretty bad but their level 18 ability is amazing enough that as far as I am concerned 18 levels is the minimum for a Wizard. But what do you do with the final two levels? I have wracked my brain on this one and Fighter is all that I can come up with which just seems lame and boring.
So with the premise that the character doesn't have to make sense story-wise, what would you do with those two levels purely from an optimization standpoint? Being able to use a Shield is obviously a plus and something that could increase its tankiness or spellcasting ability reasonably would be beneficial too. Something like a Cleric or Druid that can give a shield proficiency without losing spell slots could work but nothing seems to have any interesting low level abilities for a Wizard.
I think my main issue that for multiclassing, Wizards seem to stand out on their own with Intelligence being so useless for anything that isn't a Wizard.

Any help/advice?

[Shadow]

Personally, as I've said many times here, I think that 2 rogue is so good that I have a hard time justifying not tossing it onto just about every concept in my head.

Barring that, 1 monk / 1 cleric is also reasonable (getting the monk level in very early). At low levels your cantrips suck (and they don't scale well anyway), but with monk you can use staves as finesse weapons (they don't actually become named as such, but work mechanically that way), allowing you to get a martial arts bonus action attack also keyed to Dex, therebye raising your melee capability. Along with a 14 Wis (13 is needed for MC) that's +2 AC as well. That gives a 14 AC with a comparable Dex, which isn't terrible. It isn't good, but it isn't terrible. So for all of the lower levels where spell slots are a huge issue, instead of a measly 1d8 or so damage (avg 4.5 as the median depending on the cantrip), you can offer up 1d8+2 + 1d4+2 (avg 11).
Then since you have a 13 Wis and a spare level to play with, why not pick up some healing and domain spells to add a little versatility?
Not optimized for high level play, but in the first ten levels or so it's a good trade off.

[Vowtz]

Fighter 2 lets you cast an 9th circle spell and an 8th in the same round with action surge.

Rogue 2 gives you skill competence and cunning action, which is like a free expeditious retreat.

With Warlock 2, you gain one invocation and two 1st level slots/short rest.

Barbarian gets unarmored defense and shield...


I would get fighter 2!

[Beige]

for a two level dip, the best ones are either rogue, or fighter - even if they are the least interesting XD

fighter gets you the amazing action surge, proficiency in shinies for self-defence and an admitedly not all that good heal

rogue boosts your mobility with cunning action and helps your skills. sneak attack dosen't do anything due to lack of weapons

druid and cleric don't really give you anything but the shield prof and matching the number of spell slots if you didn't switch for wizard. the cleric will give you two additonaly prepared 1st level spells, but that's not all that good - and the druid offers nothing but continuing your spellcasting proficiency as if you kept as a wizard, and the power to give up your stuff to turn into a bear. I suppose you pick up a couple of new cantrips, but meh.

Sorceror offers a AC boost or random effects on your spells, and has some pretty good cantrips. You also start getting spell points, but not enough to be worth it. if you were willing to drop down to wiz 17, you could pick up metamagic - even without a good pool of spell points, you can sacrifice your uneeded spells to power your good ones.

Bard nets you skill buffs like the rogue, without the cunning action, but you don't give up spell slots so...

lock nets you the same

barby, pally, ranger(y) and monk(y) do very little for you, each focusing on melee without a general purpose ability like action surge/cunning action to make them worthwhile

[Giant2005]

Yeah... Thinking about it, probably nothing will be as useful as a Fighter.
With Heavy Armor I could ignore Dexterity which would help the MAD issue which probably sets it above Rogue in my eyes.
Then again unless I am taking Fighter at the first level, I would have to get a reasonable Dexterity anyway and taking Fighter at first level would mean having to earn 40k more xp before getting the coveted Wizard 18 ability.
So the Option are pretty much:
Fighter 1 then Wizard 18 and followed by a second level of Fighter,
Wizard 18 then Rogue 2 or perhaps
Wizard 18, Cleric 1, Rogue 1 although the Cleric's unique ability of giving out Heavy Armor proficiency to multiclass characters is kind of pointless if your defense was good enough to survive 18 levels without it anyway.

[Shadow]

The entire point of a splash is the fun toys you get to play with whle leveling.
If you're going to wait until 19th level before MCing out, I don't understand the point of an MC at all. Might as well just stay pure at that point.

[Vowtz]

Wiz18/fighter2

Or

Fighter2/wiz18

Makes more sense to me, I think the most important think about the fighter is his action surge, it's a good thing to have for all your career, and can be a good adition to an already superpowered wizard.

[EvilAnagram]

Wizard18/Sorcerer2

I don't know why, but why not?

[1of3]

Druid 2. Wild shape, full caster, additional spells.

[Beige]

Druid 2. Wild shape, full caster, additional spells.

except since your wild shape limited to CR-ap and can't cast spells in wild shape, it's by far the worst of the lot of full casters to dip into.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Sorceror offers a AC boost or random effects on your spells, and has some pretty good cantrips. You also start getting spell points, but not enough to be worth it. if you were willing to drop down to wiz 17, you could pick up metamagic - even without a good pool of spell points, you can sacrifice your uneeded spells to power your good ones.


That's got a lot of potential. It doesn't cost you spell slots, so what you loose are just 3 spells prepared a day... but those aren't tied to your level so you can gleefully not prepare any first or even second level spells as needed.

You do loose 6 known spells but you can "in theory" make those up with copying into your spellbook.

And since Sorc/Wiz spells lists are no longer the same you'd be getting to metamagic spells that aren't nessecarily intended to be metamagicked.


The entire point of a splash is the fun toys you get to play with whle leveling.
If you're going to wait until 19th level before MCing out, I don't understand the point of an MC at all. Might as well just stay pure at that point.

Simple, because many low level abilities are more fun then many capstones, but taking them earlier mucks up you Ability Improvements (or feats!), Extra Attacks, spells known and preparable, and many useful mid-range abilities.

Looks fun on paper but can really suck when you have to play through those levels.

[Rilak]

Most classes have solid choices if you do not want the lv19 stat increase:

Rogue: Cunning Action (2), Expertise, Proficiencies
Warlock: Eldritch blast (CHA to damage, shove)
Cleric: Heavy armor (1), 1/rest max lightning damage (2), or 1 druid cantrip (1), full spell slots, some cool level 1 spells
Fighter: Heavy armor, +1 AC from style, action surge, second wind, good hp first level, req. dex (or maybe str if going heavy armor)
Barbarian: Medium Armor, Unarmored defense (1), Danger Sense (2), Req. Str 13
Bard: Proficiencies, Inspiration, Song of Rest, Gain more spells known than lost from last Wizard levels, full spell slots
Sorcerer: AC 13+Dex, Flexible casting (turn lv2 slots into lv5), gain more spells known than lost from last Wizard levels, full spell slots

Barbarian 1 or Cleric 1 are pretty good if you want lv19 stat (or a feat if you play with them).

I am biased towards Cleric 1/Wizard 18 Hill Dwarf. Keeping lv20 open to choice :) You can do 8/8/8 STR,DEX,CHA with this build and get a good WIS save and massive HP. 8 DEX does not penalize AC.

[Asmotherion]

Warlock 2 Wizard 18 is one of my favorite class combinations. You get to cast Prismatic Wall AND push targets on the wall with Repelling Blast.

Sure, you can do the same with telekinesis, but Eldrich Blast does it better.

As your 2 at-will spells, I'd definitelly recomend Shield (a net +5 AC that stacks with everything) and you can then choose Magic Missile (as a 2nd level spell. You create 4 darts. That is an automatic 4d4+4d6+4*, except in rare situations. 51 dammage with Evocation School), Chromatic Orb to hit anything with a vulnerability, Misty Step if you want to run and then teleport and so on...

*Hex is aplyed everytime you attack, not nececerally attack roll.

[Klorox]

If you're in a campaign long enough to reach level 18 as a single classed wizard, and want to multiclass, throwing a could of arcana cleric levels in there isn't bad.

The problem with multiclassing casters is that second class adds a lot early on, but slowing down your main classes main ability, even by a level, sucks IMO.

[Asmotherion]

If you're in a campaign long enough to reach level 18 as a single classed wizard, and want to multiclass, throwing a could of arcana cleric levels in there isn't bad.

The problem with multiclassing casters is that second class adds a lot early on, but slowing down your main classes main ability, even by a level, sucks IMO.

That's why you either choose to
A) Take the levels of the dip first, so you will know you'll be having a slower progression and deal with it.
B) Take them at a point set by you, so it won't spoil your game experiance with said class. I had a player who wanted to make a Sorcerer (favored soul) 18/ paladin 2. He however decided he didn't want to wait for his wings, and went sorcerer 14, then diped into Paladin, and then back to sorcerer.
C) If you can't deal with it, and your campain reaches lv 20+epics, just wait for lv18... or don't multiclass at all.

[Sir cryosin]

Cleric is a good dip first you get light, medium, shield, prof. Then you remain a full caster. Then a few domains give you heavy armor proficiency martial weapons. You have access to all first lv cleric spells. Then you have there Channel divinity. Page 163 in phb is the multi-class.

[RickAllison]

Knowledge Cleric 2. Medium armor, Healing Word for getting allies off the floor, Bless for being a lazy God-Wizard, more and better knowledge skills, and a Channel Divinity that lets you use Fabricate to make essentially anything non-magical.

[DivisibleByZero]

I'd definitely multiclass a wizard 18 with 2 levels of an homebrew Necromancer class, with a subclass which focuses his necromantic powers upon Threads.
Until this morning, this one had been dead for over two years.

As to the idea of Hex applying to each missile of a MM spell.... Doesn't work that way. MM isn't an attack. It doesn't benefit from Hex at all.

[Specter]

Fighter gives you +4 AC, bonus healing and two spells in a turn. If your concept can fit a warmage, then it's the best bet.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you're slapping it on at the very end... I think you have to say Fighter. Defense Style for a flat +1 AC is boring but useful, and, well... you're not going to find anything better than casting a second spell once/short rest-- that's about the only feature that'll scale with your wizard levels, as its value is entirely based on how much you can do with your action.

[JumboWheat01]

If you're already at 18, you might as well just go for a 19 in Wizard that way you can snag your last ASI. Maybe go Fighter at character level 19 to snag medium armor, weaponry and shields, then upgrade that with Wizard 19 to Heavy Armor. Wade around in Full Plate with a Shield for a sweet 20 AC all the time, which you can still throw a Shield spell on top of that as needed for 25 AC.

Who says you have to be a squishy wizard?

[Klorox]

I can't see why AC would be all that important for 2 levels. You've been a wizard forever... NOW you're worried about AC?

SMH

[Specter]

I can't see why AC would be all that important for 2 levels. You've been a wizard forever... NOW you're worried about AC?

SMH

Careful, that same logic will apply to anything at level 18.

[Klorox]

Careful, that same logic will apply to anything at level 18.

It already does.

How often do games get there? Seriously?

I've only seen level 20 one-shots.

[Ghost Nappa]

The Wizard 20 Capstone stucks because you're getting a Level 7 Spell Slot and 2 Spells of Any School and Level.

That is not insignificant (although admittedly, you probably have most of the spells you want at that point).

[Kane0]

Foghter, rogue, sorcerer or warlock in no particular order would be my picks, depending on character growth at that point.

[Asmotherion]

I can't see why AC would be all that important for 2 levels. You've been a wizard forever... NOW you're worried about AC?

SMH

That's what a party member said about his highly optimised Assasin Rogue at level 18... just 1 session before we buried him. If you're playing in a high opt campain, you should always optimise. Otherwise play just for fun. I've played a character in the past with 1-2 level dips in most classes. Definitelly not an awesome character, optimisation wise, but still one of the most fun chars I ever played.

In any case, for a wizard, I think the best option is either go Warlock 2 for the Eldrich blasts (if you have the charisma to make good use of it) or sorcerer, gaining 4 new cantrips, aka the only kind of spells you needed to cherry-pick uppon as a wizard, since you had a limited access to them.

[NNescio]

Personally, as I've said many times here, I think that 2 rogue is so good that I have a hard time justifying not tossing it onto just about every concept in my head.

Wizard 18 can get at-will Misty Step, making Cunning Action mostly pointless. And starting Rogue early for two levels cripples your spellcasting progression in exchange for skills and Cunning Action (which only come online at Level 2). Just go straight Lore Bard instead if you want to cover the sklll monkey role, or multiclass one level in Knowledge Cleric if you want 'expertise' in Knowledge skills. Cast Expeditious Retreat or get the Mobility feat if you want to hit and run in combination with BB (usually only a viable option on Bladesingers).



Barring that, 1 monk / 1 cleric is also reasonable (getting the monk level in very early). At low levels your cantrips suck (and they don't scale well anyway), but with monk you can use staves as finesse weapons (they don't actually become named as such, but work mechanically that way), allowing you to get a martial arts bonus action attack also keyed to Dex, therebye raising your melee capability. Along with a 14 Wis (13 is needed for MC) that's +2 AC as well. That gives a 14 AC with a comparable Dex, which isn't terrible. It isn't good, but it isn't terrible. So for all of the lower levels where spell slots are a huge issue, instead of a measly 1d8 or so damage (avg 4.5 as the median depending on the cantrip), you can offer up 1d8+2 + 1d4+2 (avg 11).
Then since you have a 13 Wis and a spare level to play with, why not pick up some healing and domain spells to add a little versatility?
Not optimized for high level play, but in the first ten levels or so it's a good trade off.

The extra monk AC is pointless because it doesn't stack with Mage Armor. Even more so if you're multiclassing Cleric on top of it, because you already get shield and medium armor profs.

That extra attack is barely a blip of extra damage, especially considering you have to put yourself in danger to use it. And becomes absolutely useless past Level 5 if BB and GFB are on table.

You want melee options and extra AC for a Wizard, pick the Bladesinger archetype instead.

--

Usually, Wizards who want to multiclass would either multiclass one level into Cleric early on (usually by starting off in Cleric) to get armor and shield profs (and Guidance + Healing Word/Bless) and potentially good L1 domain features (and get their 2nd Cleric level after Wizard 18) or just tack on two extra Fighter levels at the end of their career. Dipping into another class early for two levels cripples spell progression way too much, especially for a spellcaster with access to a spell list as good as a Wizard (with subclass features that enhance those spells further).


That's what a party member said about his highly optimised Assasin Rogue at level 18... just 1 session before we buried him. If you're playing in a high opt campain, you should always optimise. Otherwise play just for fun. I've played a character in the past with 1-2 level dips in most classes. Definitelly not an awesome character, optimisation wise, but still one of the most fun chars I ever played.

That's because he's an Assassin Rogue. You're the Wizard, you have a f-ton of defensive spells (including at-will Shield and Contingency: Hamsterball) by that point. Remember to pick Alert at some point, and you can't be surprised and insta-gibbed either without access to reactions. Illusionists and Diviners also get to tilt the odds more to their favor (plus, well, Illusionists are basically at-will reality warpers past Level 14 thanks to Illusory Reality).

Plus, well, at Level 18, death is less of a concern for spellcasters if you have an allied Cleric or Druid on your team (unless, well, you're the Cleric or Druid, in which case you're SoL). Also true for melees to some extent, but you risk losing your gear if you die (while spellcasters generally don't need good items to remain competitive).

If you're really that paranoid (maybe because you suspect you're up against permadead effects) you can use proxies like summons (with Planar Binding), manually create minions via True Polymorph, or straight-up Wish Simulacrum (no need to daisy-chain it) a copy of you to act instead of you for the day. Well-worth the L9 spell slot spent.


In any case, for a wizard, I think the best option is either go Warlock 2 for the Eldrich blasts (if you have the charisma to make good use of it) or sorcerer, gaining 4 new cantrips, aka the only kind of spells you needed to cherry-pick uppon as a wizard, since you had a limited access to them.

Cha is usually a dump stat for Wizards. And, well, you already have more than enough cantrips already by that point, unless you want to pick the Elemental Evil elemental-manipulation cantrips. For utility cantrips like Message, well, you already have ritual spells that can do better.

Leave dealing single-target damage to your party martials.


If you're already at 18, you might as well just go for a 19 in Wizard that way you can snag your last ASI. Maybe go Fighter at character level 19 to snag medium armor, weaponry and shields, then upgrade that with Wizard 19 to Heavy Armor. Wade around in Full Plate with a Shield for a sweet 20 AC all the time, which you can still throw a Shield spell on top of that as needed for 25 AC.

Who says you have to be a squishy wizard?

If you're multiclassing Fighter at that point, an ASI/feat is way subpar compared to Action Surge 1/short rest (read: cast two non-cantrip spells in one round, once per short rest) is worth. Takes the wind out of the Sorcerer's sails completely.

In any case you're still squishy and vulnerable to non-elemental Dex save damage effects (for elemental ones you have Absorb Elements), because of your smaller hitdie, even if you pick Resilient (Dex) .

Not to mention that to get the 20 AC you need Plate Armor, which has a Str req. of 15, unless you want to eat the -10 ft movement speed penalty. Half plate with shield and Dex 14 (unlike Str, Dex is not a dump stat) already gives you AC 19. So, you're paying an ASI AND a -10 ft speed penalty just to get one extra AC, which is extremely questionable.

If you must go Wiz 19 for the ASI, pick something like Lucky or Resilient (Dex) instead (I assume you already picked Resilient [Con]). Even Medium Armor Master is better if you have Dex 15 (not unlikely for Elves).

And again, if you want to optimize AC, pick Bladesinger.


Druid 2. Wild shape, full caster, additional spells.

CR 1 and below forms are downright liabilities at higher levels, due to the abundance of CCs and instant-death effects that are checked off HP. Heck, even Sleep (a measly Level 1 spell) can disable you, if you aren't an elf.

[DivisibleByZero]

You just responded to a post from two years ago mage by a banned playgrounder.

[NNescio]

You just responded to a post from two years ago mage by a banned playgrounder.

I blame Asmotherion for casting Animate Thread.

[MaxWilson]

Wizard 18 can get at-will Misty Step, making Cunning Action mostly pointless. And starting Rogue early for two levels cripples your spellcasting progression in exchange for skills and Cunning Action (which only come online at Level 2). Just go straight Lore Bard instead if you want to cover the sklll monkey role, or multiclass one level in Knowledge Cleric if you want 'expertise' in Knowledge skills. Cast Expeditious Retreat or get the Mobility feat if you want to hit and run in combination with BB (usually only a viable option on Bladesingers).

Misty Step and Expeditious Retreat are problematic replacements for Cunning Action.

(1) Expeditious Retreat eats your concentration. You can't do it while maintaining e.g. Wall of Force.
(2) Misty Step eats your spellcasting for that round. You can't do it while casting e.g. Wall of Force, or Fireball, or anything else. Sure you've still got your action for the round, but that's it.
(3) Neither one allows you to Hide, and even if you pick something that does allow you to Hide (e.g. Haste), you can't use it effectively because (a) your Stealth without Expertise is too low to be reliable, (b) your concentration is busy with that instead of being free for e.g. Darkness or Greater Invisibility.

Cunning Action is terrific for wizards. Is it terrific enough to be worth those two levels? Eh, maybe, maybe not. But it's far from pointless.

Besides, I'd rather save my Spell Mastery for Rope Trick. :)

[Asmotherion]

You just responded to a post from two years ago mage by a banned playgrounder.

Wow... just noticed... This is awkward... I don't even know how that happened! :/

[Citan]

The Wizard capstone is pretty bad but their level 18 ability is amazing enough that as far as I am concerned 18 levels is the minimum for a Wizard. But what do you do with the final two levels? I have wracked my brain on this one and Fighter is all that I can come up with which just seems lame and boring.

I find the bolded part a fairly harsh statement for what happends to be 2 3rd level spells FREE per SHORT REST.

For a Necromancer especially, it's a free Minion every short rest (Animate Dead), which greatly increase the number of minions you can control (unless I missed something and it's superfluous).

For others, it may be a free Divination spell (= additional slot recharge) (edit: my bad, double checked, you have to use a spell slot), abjuration spell (free Ward recharge), empowered blast (Evoker Fireball) or a Major Image blockade/weapon/creature/whatever for an Illusionist...

Or just a plain good spell that any Wizard may like to use on a regular basis such as Bestow Curse, Fly, Blink, Counterspell, Haste, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Slow, Stinking Cloud...

Frankly, Wizard's capstone is all but "bad", and would actually rank among the top five easily.

So for a Wizard that can hope getting there, dismissing it is a tough choice.

Now, it can be a good choice if you make it to dip another class near the beginning of your progression, to get strong benefits for your whole life.

In which case the most obvious are Fighter (proficiencies, action surge) and Rogue (expertise, Cunning Action).
Other dips that can be good but require MADness include Fiendish Warlock (THP on kill, free Mage Armor), as well as Paladin (armor, smite), Draconic Sorcerer (permanent armor), Shadow Sorcerer (UA, avoid death), Knowledge or Tempest Cleric, Bard (Jack of All Trade).