What is the monk good for?

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

What is the Monks purpose what nitche does it fill. Rogue has off damagr skill monkey. Bard similar but a buff machine. So what is a monks sloy in the party? Is he suppose to be the mobile caster killer or just an off damagr dealer with a nice bit of fluff?

[TeslaJr]

A dip for a Tashalatora build. That's about it.

[Eldariel]

Monks are supposed to be a mixture of a frontliner and a skill monkey. Kinda Rogue--, a more mobile Fighter or whatever. Suffice to say, since the things they're supposed to be worse at are bad at their job, Monks manage to be straight-up horrendous.

[Emperor Tippy]

Scouting and assassination, ideally done in conjunction with dips in other classes.

[Theomniadept]

Two levels for the Monk/Wizard/Swiftblade Goku build. Otherwise, Monk into Drunken Master with an adamantine chair/lamppost/flagon/something two-handed. There's the Monk 2/Cleric whatever into Divine Fist (or Sacred Fist or whatever it's called). Other than that, not much. Go pure Monk in a party of all casters for hilarious results.

[Telonius]

Monk is supposed to be the kung-fu guy who can slip in and deal a Stun effect and fight off several enemies at once. Monk is supposed to be guy who can do a bunch of unusual attacks (disarm, trip, grapple) that humanoid enemies aren't typically good at. In particular, he's supposed to be a caster-killer, able to stun, grapple, or otherwise ruin the day of the guy who's flinging fireballs. He's supposed to be able to be set down anywhere with no gear and get along, disarming the guy with the big axe and killing people using only his thumbs.

Unfortunately, given his abilities, he's not actually able to do most of that stuff. At first glance, it looks like - with all of those thematic abilities - he ought to be able to do it. But when you start crunching the numbers, it just doesn't add up.

[heavyfuel]

Two level dip in most martial classes, especially if mundane ones and Druidzillas if you don't mind the CL loss

You almost never want more than 6 levels in Monk, but these 6 first levels can give you some decent abilities.

[Pan151]

As the posters above have said, monks as a single class are not good for anything.

Monk as a dip, however, are really good. A 1-level monk dip lets a druid add an extra full-attack on top of all his natural weapons, a massive boost to AC and a very useful feat like power attack or improved grappling, in exchange for just 1 level delay.

[Urpriest]

Classes don't have roles in 3.5 like they do in 4e. Rather, each class is a collection of resources. Monk can present you with different resources depending on what you're interested in: speed for a speed record or an annoying skirmisher (often on a Mercury Dragon or similarly naturally fast creature), lots of bonus feats (handy for many martial builds, especially shadow pouncers), unarmed damage progression (meaningful if you stack size increases), and a stat to AC (which can be Cha or Int if you take the feats for it). It all depends what you do with it.

[Emperor Tippy]

As the posters above have said, monks as a single class are not good for anything.

Monk as a dip, however, are really good. A 1-level monk dip lets a druid add an extra full-attack on top of all his natural weapons, a massive boost to AC and a very useful feat like power attack or improved grappling, in exchange for just 1 level delay.

Again, straight class Monk can be a phenomenally good scout and assassin. With some dipping it can also be the basis for the best skirmisher build in the game.

[heavyfuel]

Again, straight class Monk can be a phenomenally good scout and assassin. With some dipping it can also be the basis for the best skirmisher build in the game.

Does the straight monk build involve VoP and Chaos Shuffling every feat? Because if not, I'd really like to see a monk 20 that can kickass better than, say, a Swordsage.

[Extra Anchovies]

A two-level dip into monk gets you three bonus feats, evasion, and +3 to all your poor saves, and it doubles your unarmed damage die. Swap flurry for Decisive Strike (PHB2) because flurry can't be used while armored. Take Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes for the ability to survive in a grapple if need be and because Combat Reflexes is a good feat to have, especially as a bonus feat. The Denying Stance fighting style from UA gives +2 to tumble checks (and just so happens to require that you take Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes).

Alternately, the Overwhelming Attack fighting style gives +2 to Intimidate at first level and nets you Power Attack as a bonus feat. At second level they get Improved Bull Rush, and at sixth level they get Improved Overrun (meh) and +4 on bull rush attempts against foes they demoralized in the last 10 rounds. A desert half-orc Zhentarim Fighter 9 (with Dungeoncrasher)/Monk 6/CC Lion Totem Barbarian 5 (not necesarily in that order), with Menacing Demeanor, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Never Outnumbered, Intimidating Rage, Imperious Command, and maybe Extra Rage for good measure, could be a pretty great intimidation build. AC doesn't matter when you're demoralizing and bull rushing, so enter rage, toss some intimidation around, and bull rush away at your cowering foes. The bull rushing synergizes very nicely with the speed bonus from Monk if you can stomach being unarmored, too.

[Pan151]

Again, straight class Monk can be a phenomenally good scout and assassin. With some dipping it can also be the basis for the best skirmisher build in the game.

If we're talking about moving fast, scouting and skirmishing, a lv10 warlock can move 830 feet/round, while flying, invisible and untrackable, and attack people from 250 feet away with touch attacks. Much better than a straight monk.

[SinsI]

VoP monks make pretty neat cohorts for casters with Leadership. I.e. if a druid buff him with Greater Mighty Wallop, monk will have a decent damage potential.

[Shining Wrath]

Spawning Forum threads. It excels at that.

[Emperor Tippy]

Does the straight monk build involve VoP and Chaos Shuffling every feat? Because if not, I'd really like to see a monk 20 that can kickass better than, say, a Swordsage.

Not necessarily, and I never said that it could kick ass better than a Swordsage. I said that it can be a better scout, skirmisher, and assassin.

Kicking ass better than a straight Swordsage is the province of Rogue 1/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 11/ Factotum 8 (if you want majority Monk levels). Otherwise Swashbuckler 3/ Swordsage 1 to replace 4 of those Monk levels. That will destroy a Swordsage in any ass-kicking challenge.

[OldTrees1]

Again, straight class Monk can be a phenomenally good scout and assassin. With some dipping it can also be the basis for the best skirmisher build in the game.

I do not doubt you. Would you please expand on this?

Edit: I see you mentioned Invisible Fist, Martial Monk and Decisive Strike. Is there more?

[heavyfuel]

Not necessarily, and I never said that it could kick ass better than a Swordsage. I said that it can be a better scout, skirmisher, and assassin.

Kicking ass better than a straight Swordsage is the province of Rogue 1/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 11/ Factotum 8 (if you want majority Monk levels). Otherwise Swashbuckler 3/ Swordsage 1 to replace 4 of those Monk levels. That will destroy a Swordsage in any ass-kicking challenge.

You misunderstand. I meant kickass not in the PVP sense, but in the scout skirmisher assassin sense.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

So he is suppose to be the speedy guy who getd in delivers a stun or combat maneuver and screw up a guys day who slings spells as well as be able to fight out numbered odds is that basically it?

[Extra Anchovies]

So he is suppose to be the speedy guy who getd in delivers a stun or combat maneuver and screw up a guys day who slings spells as well as be able to fight out numbered odds is that basically it?

That's what the monk is supposed to be, yes. It fails in the attempt, but it's supposed to be that. Giving them good BAB, ways to move+full attack, and the ability to add Wisdom modifier to more stuff would help balance them. This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18051160&postcount=73) elaborates on these suggested fixes, and is where I get them from.

[Snowbluff]

Invisible fist is handy sometimes.

Martial Monk only applies to the original fighter feat list.

Decisive Blow is good for archers.

Two levels for the Monk/Wizard/Swiftblade Goku build.

Oh, yuck. How can you taint my favorite class with the worst class? What is your major malfunction? :smallyuk:

[jiriku]

I do not doubt you. Would you please expand on this?

Edit: I see you mentioned Invisible Fist, Martial Monk and Decisive Strike. Is there more?

I can see where he's headed with it. Factotum 8 lets you create multiple standard actions for yourself, which means multiple decisive strikes. Rogue 1 gets you sneak attack, which probably means Staggering Strike. Invisible Fist monk can turn invisible, striking at +2 on all attacks vs flat-footed AC, dealing double damage, staggering and potentially stunning the opponent (causing him to drop anything held). Martial monk has solid base attack and can likely disarm if the stun fails and it's really desirable to do so. This is the recipe for really ruining someone's day over the course of 1-2 rounds. With swashbuckler, you'll be adding Int to damage twice on each hit during decisive strike, and a strategically placed level of swordsage can provide tactical teleportation, extra stealth, and any number of other goodies.

[Rubik]

Does the straight monk build involve VoP and Chaos Shuffling every feat? Because if not, I'd really like to see a monk 20 that can kickass better than, say, a Swordsage.Ahem. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) Or close enough to monk 20, anyway. Note that I only dipped for more feats.

It's still better as a Tashalatora build, but whatevs.

[heavyfuel]

Invisible fist is handy sometimes.

Martial Monk only applies to the original fighter feat list.

Decisive Blow is good for archers.


Flurry of Blows apply only to unarmed strikes and monk weapons. How is your archer using it?

Also, Martial Monk only lets you select the feats, not use them. Not without meeting the prerequisites anyway.


A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.

[Spore]

Monk is the best class for making fellow players feel bad that they needed to optimize a crap ton out of their T1 casters while a bottom T5 class still looks more badass than they do. Bonus points for taking no damage every time a creature with Death Throes explodes almost killing the caster while you stand in the fire evading it.

[Rubik]

Flurry of Blows apply only to unarmed strikes and monk weapons. How is your archer using it?

Also, Martial Monk only lets you select the feats, not use them. Not without meeting the prerequisites anyway.You realize that "normal" monks can still use the feats they select from their list, even if they don't otherwise qualify, yes? Which means that martial monk can likewise do so.

[heavyfuel]

You realize that "normal" monks can still use the feats they select from their list, even if they don't otherwise qualify, yes? Which means that martial monk can likewise do so.

You might want to post this to Dysfunctional Rules thread, be no they don't according to the rules. Much like the Martial Monk, they can only select them, not use (without prereqs)


At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

[Rubik]

You might want to post this to Dysfunctional Rules thread, be no they don't according to the rules. Much like the Martial Monk, they can only select them, not use (without prereqs)A monk character's "monster entry" would have those feats marked with a B, and I believe the following text applies:

"Feats
The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B. Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites."

[heavyfuel]

A monk character's "monster entry" would have those feats marked with a B, and I believe the following text applies:

"Feats
The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B. Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites."

By this logic the Fighter would a superscript B to his bonus feats as well and if he lost a prerequisite, he'd still be able to use it. He does gain Bonus Feats, by this name.

While I very much agree that the Monk's RAI is that he can use bonus feats regardless, the RAW is pretty clear that he can only select it, with no mention of weather or not he can use it.

[Rubik]

By this logic the Fighter would a superscript B to his bonus feats as well and if he lost a prerequisite, he'd still be able to use it. He does gain Bonus Feats, by this name.

While I very much agree that the Monk's RAI is that he can use bonus feats regardless, the RAW is pretty clear that he can only select it, with no mention of weather or not he can use it.Except the fighter explicitly must qualify for its feats, whereas a monk explicitly doesn't.

[TeslaJr]

Except the fighter explicitly must qualify for its feats, whereas a monk explicitly doesn't.

Which is why the Martial Monk is borked as hell.

[Anlashok]

While I very much agree that the Monk's RAI is that he can use bonus feats regardless, the RAW is pretty clear that he can only select it, with no mention of weather or not he can use it.

So even though the RAW explicitly says that the monk can still use the feat, it's "clear" that he can't use it?

[heavyfuel]

Except the fighter explicitly must qualify for its feats, whereas a monk explicitly doesn't.


So even though the RAW explicitly says that the monk can still use the feat, it's "clear" that he can't use it?

The RAW explicitly says that? Where? Like I posted before, the RAW says monks can select the feats, not use them.


Which is why the Martial Monk is borked as hell.

inb4 It's not as good as a Tier 1 caster so it's not really borked.

[CyberThread]

MONK HUH... YEAH!


WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR!


Absolutely nothing

[Anlashok]

The RAW explicitly says that? Where? Like I posted before, the RAW says monks can select the feats, not use them.


In turn the RAW says that a creature can use bonus feats they have even if they don't meet the prerequisites for them.

Seems clear.

[Rubik]

In turn the RAW says that a creature can use bonus feats they have even if they don't meet the prerequisites for them....which is, of course, overridden in some cases, such as the fighter, which specifically states that he must qualify for his bonus feats.

[Pan151]

It's specific vs generic. The rules for gaining and using feats apply only when you're getting the feats in the generic way. If you're gaining a feat in a special way that is explicitely ignoring a rule, then that rule does not apply.

I mean yeah, the rules of the game are sometimes a mess, but oftentimes people in these boards flat out ignore that the game is supposed to be arbitrated by a thinking human, and expect the developers to write down all the rules as if they were writing code for a computer, even for the ones that RAI in literally non-debatable...

[Phelix-Mu]

I mean yeah, the rules of the game are sometimes a mess, but oftentimes people in these boards flat out ignore that the game is supposed to be arbitrated by a thinking human, and expect the developers to write down all the rules as if they were writing code for a computer, even for the ones that RAI in literally non-debatable...

This is a nicely put bit that covers an important topic. As much as it pleases my inner copy editor to tear the RAW to shreds, it is pretty unrealistic to expect that it would be flawless. Since they knew there would be inconsistencies or the need for on-the-spot interpretations for novel situations, they followed the long tradition of giving the DM to make changes that needed to be made in order to at least preserve playability (if not balance, which would be a herculean effort for a DM to make, especially piece-by-piece on-the-spot).

So a good-sense view of the RAI helps us avoid many of the apoplectic fits that tend to occur when glaring dysfunction emerges under our communal microscope.

[TheMADMonk]

I personally love the monk, but I have to admit sometimes I see how much flak it gets for being utterly messed up.

I have recently posted my homebrew of the monk up on the homebrew forum

EDIT: Never mind link thing works.

[Ravens_cry]

One thing I'd say most of the 'bad' classes are good for is when you have an optimizer in the group, the person who likes to wring every drop of potential out of class they can, while the rest of the group is more laid back about such things. Nothing wrong with that style of play, but it can overshadow others potentially, so letting them run loose with this kind of class lets them enjoy this style of play without making the others look bad.

[nedz]

You might want to post this to Dysfunctional Rules thread, be no they don't according to the rules. Much like the Martial Monk, they can only select them, not use (without prereqs)

We already have that one — Monks Cannot use bonus feats if they are not qualified Thread 3 Page 44

But yeah — they are a defensive scout type class. The Anvil for the Rogue to flank with ?
One of their many problems is that Offence > Defence
They are also meant to be able to quickly sneak around the back and sack the enemy caster — good luck with that one.

They are a good two level dip for some builds; especially Passive Way or Cobra Strike. Not high powered builds mind.

[Mr Adventurer]

Monk is for when you want to play a badass kung fu warrior, but have made a terrible mistake.

[Mato]

The monk is a spell-less soloist of D&D, that's his function.

He has invisibility before anyone else, shadow blend is the absolute pinnacle of stealth. His can run on walls and his ability to maintain perpetual blink allows him to walk through them. trapfinding can also be picked up as a feat if you wanting his scouting abilities to replace the "skillmonkey" classes only real usefulness.

The monk has immunity to several for-players attacks such as disease and poison, The monk can heal him self by using lay on hands or wholeness of body or even both (loh replaces still mind). He also has the highest single class saves with possible bonuses, spell resistance (improves to 15+lvl with a vest, 75% negation vs monsters), his stealth prevents him from being a target and his blink allows him to escape otherwise undodgable spells. All while addressing the illusion ac that is relevant with bonuses there too.

The monk possesses more attacks than anyone else for superior chances to hit and has the highest damage per success after a few levels. Through the monk's bonus feats he also obtains core's means to attempt to shut people down. Like a caster rather than a mundane the monk can attack your saves with quivering palm, stunning fist, and poison use (it's better than the assassin's class feature!). He can also go for tripping to prevent his opponent's full-attacks which works just fine and success gives you back that attack you spent tripping them.

Dragon magazine let's you compose a party of monks. Holy monk has things like turn undead and smite evil, which can be turned into inspire courage to dragonfire inspiration. Martial let's you take the best high level fighter feats within the first two levels of the game. Sidewinder obtains sneak attack and raging gives you the barbarian's rage and the barbarian's rage can be replaced with whirling frenzy. With wild monk I'm forced to correct my self, with master of many forms you can obtain arcane and divine spell casting, aberrant wild shape and assume supernatural ability gives you everything from the factotum's extra standard actions every single turn for free to supernatural based spells.

So what does it offer? Well, what do you want? The fighter is limited to picking lame feats, the barbarian limited to getting mad and hitting stuff, the rogue limited to attack living unconcealed targets and disabling traps, but the monk? He does it all without having to resort to using spells.

[TheMADMonk]

All those are ACF right? If you replace every feature of a Monk is it still a Monk?

Also I have a question about Decisive Strike. How is this useful? Its a full round action, but doesn't full round action allow for Full Attack actions?

[TeslaJr]

All those are ACF right? If you replace every feature of a Monk is it still a Monk?

Also I have a question about Decisive Strike. How is this useful? Its a full round action, but doesn't full round action allow for Full Attack actions?

IIRC, Decisive Strike is good if you get a bunch of extra attacks (from something like Snap Kick or a bite attack [I think]) because the added damage applies to all of those as well.

[TheMADMonk]

Yes like AoO and so forth. But it is a Full Round action, which according to the Combat page on PFSRD http://paizo.com/prd/combat.html allows a Full Attack action to be used as a Full Round. So wouldn't you be able to attack as many times as you have the BAB for?

[TeslaJr]

Yes like AoO and so forth. But it is a Full Round action, which according to the Combat page on PFSRD http://paizo.com/prd/combat.html allows a Full Attack action to be used as a Full Round. So wouldn't you be able to attack as many times as you have the BAB for?

That's it! I'm not sure about the extra attacks from BAB, but an AoO build using this and Robilar's Gambit (freaking amazing feat for AoOs, though a little risky) can pump out some damage.

[TheMADMonk]

Well it says the Decisive Strike take a Full Round Action, which a Full Attack is a Full Round Action. So in theory you can attack a total of 5 times by level 20 3 for the BAB which allows extra attacks during your full round action. The bonus gifted by Decisive strike, and your off-hand attack.

[ericgrau]

They're supposed to be for special attacks, a little mundane BFC. That combines well with having many attacks without depending much on attack bonus, and combines well with decent unarmed strike damage. The other features are pretty minor though they don't hurt. Unless you focus on them, then they become a trap that's good for a laugh.

Not saying special attacks are superb especially when you have splat-books available. But that's what they're set up well for.

[Mato]

All those are ACF right? If you replace every feature of a Monk is it still a Monk?Yes & yes.

It's no different than a cleric who chooses to persist his spells instead of turning undead or a wizard that chooses to specialize in conjuration and use splatbook spells like orb of acid instead of specializing in evocation and fireballs. It's simply a better choice than the alternative methods of use.

You are given choices to build, some of them are feat based (dmm), some of them are open ended in the class which leads to choices (spell choice) while some others are granted by the class (acfs/specialist) which are the only ones that can be considered to be an element of that class.

TheMADMonk, you don't need homebrew to fix a class when proper utilization of a class's choices already does it for you.

[Vhaidara]

Well it says the Decisive Strike take a Full Round Action, which a Full Attack is a Full Round Action. So in theory you can attack a total of 5 times by level 20 3 for the BAB which allows extra attacks during your full round action. The bonus gifted by Decisive strike, and your off-hand attack.

No, you cannot make a full attack and use Decisive Strike in the same turn.

As a full-round action, make one attack with an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon, using your highest base attack bonus but taking a –2 penalty on this attack roll. If the attack hits, it deals double damage (as does any other attack you make before the start of your next turn). If you use this strike to deliver a stunning attack, increase the save DC to resist the stun by 2. This is an extraordinary ability.

That this means is that as a full round action, you make 1 (single) attack at your highest BAB-2. It is completely separate from a full attack action.

If your version worked, then what would stop someone from taking 2 full attacks? After all, they're both full round actions. Or taking a full attack and casting a spell with a full round casting time?

[TheMADMonk]

A Full Round action involves a full attack. A Full Round action is a type of action that includes other actions that are Full round actions like Full Attack. Hmm All Full Round actions are not full attacks but all Full Attacks are Full Round action kind of thing.

My point is that is does not say which kind of full round action it uses, just that it uses one. Kind of playing the system but it is at least plausible.

Also What about off hand attacks?It says one attack, it does not preclude other attacks hence why AoO work, Cleave works, Snap Kick, etc.

[TheMADMonk]

Yes & yes.

It's no different than a cleric who chooses to persist his spells instead of turning undead or a wizard that chooses to specialize in conjuration and use splatbook spells like orb of acid instead of specializing in evocation and fireballs. It's simply a better choice than the alternative methods of use.

You are given choices to build, some of them are feat based (dmm), some of them are open ended in the class which leads to choices (spell choice) while some others are granted by the class (acfs/specialist) which are the only ones that can be considered to be an element of that class.

TheMADMonk, you don't need homebrew to fix a class when proper utilization of a class's choices already does it for you.

Actually you kind of do till they fix the massive problems with the class.
Mostly its MAD nature and the fact that the guy who is suppose to be fast on the battle field can't be.
To use a Decisive Strike or Flurry of Blows you need a Full Attack, which means you cannot move that turn. For a class that gives you +60 to your speed you can't use it. Even Abundant Step cripples you. You need to use a Move action to use it. BUT to use a move action means you cannot full attack.

So Bob the Monk can teleport to Steve the Baddie and hit him with his unarmed strike as a normal attack. But he has to wait a full turn to Flurry of Blows which is his primary damage dealing abilities. Sure Bob can try to stun him with a stunning fist and prevent damage till that next turn but should he have too?

[Vhaidara]

My point is that is does not say which kind of full round action it uses, just that it uses one. Kind of playing the system but it is at least plausible.

It means that it is a full round action. It does not ride on a previous kind of full round action, it is a new full round action. You don't do it and something from this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions), you make a Decisive Strike.

Fighter got a number of ACFs in PHB2 that work in the same way.

Off hand wouldn't work, because you make a single attack as part of your action.
TWF only comes into play with a full attack
AoO is not part of your action
Cleave is a rider following your attack, not part of your attack action.
Snap Kick works like Cleave.

[TheMADMonk]

It means that it is a full round action. It does not ride on a previous kind of full round action, it is a new full round action. You don't do it and something from this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions), you make a Decisive Strike.

Fighter got a number of ACFs in PHB2 that work in the same way.

Off hand wouldn't work, because you make a single attack as part of your action.
TWF only comes into play with a full attack
AoO is not part of your action
Cleave is a rider following your attack, not part of your attack action.
Snap Kick works like Cleave.

You are saying there is a difference between a full round action and a full round action right?

[TeslaJr]

You are saying there is a difference between a full round action and a full round action right?

Well, there is a difference between a Full Round Attack and a Full Round Action.

[Vhaidara]

You are saying there is a difference between a full round action and a full round action right?

There is a difference between a full round action and a full attack.
As a Full-Round action, you can choose to
1. Full Attack
2. Charge
3. Coup de Grace
4. Escape from a net
5. Extinguish flames
6. Light a torch
7. Load a heavy or repeating crossbow
8. Lock or unlock weapon in locked gauntlet
9. Prepare to throw splash weapon
10. Run
11. Use skill that takes 1 round
12. Use touch spell on up to 6 friends
13. Withdraw
14. Make a Decisive Strike

I only added Decisive Strike to the list, but there are other full round action abilities, such as the Fighter's Counterattack, Elusive Attack, and Overwhelming Attack ACFs (all PHB2)

EDIT: In case it's unclear, you can do ONE of these.

[TheMADMonk]

Well, there is a difference between a Full Round Attack and a Full Round Action.
I don't know why but I get the feeling he is thinking I am talking about two full round attacks and that just doesn't make sense.
I am not saying you make two different full round actions I am saying it says you make A full round action. Well which type of full round action? There are several according to D&D and it does not specify which one.

It says to make one attack as a full round action. Ok which type of attack do you want me to maker as a full round action. A full ATTACK? What type. My point being the wording would have been much easier to just keep it as a Full Attack action rather then switch it up from Flurry of Blows. Needless changes are needless

[TheMADMonk]

BTW the person who listed all those ACFs to make the monk a Spell-less Soloist can you list the ACFs and where they are from?

[Vhaidara]

It says to make one attack as a full round action. Ok which type of attack do you want me to maker as a full round action. A full ATTACK? What type. My point being the wording would have been much easier to just keep it as a Full Attack action rather then switch it up from Flurry of Blows. Needless changes are needless

I'm assuming, I ninjaed you, but it is a Full Round action. It does not require another type of full round action. It is a full round action. I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to get.

[TheMADMonk]

I'm assuming, I ninjaed you, but it is a Full Round action. It does not require another type of full round action. It is a full round action. I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to get.
Indeed you did.
My point was it was a needless bit of wording that didn't need to be there. Why switch it from Full Attack to Full Round anyway. What is the restrictive benefit?

[Vhaidara]

Indeed you did.
My point was it was a needless bit of wording that didn't need to be there. Why switch it from Full Attack to Full Round anyway. What is the restrictive benefit?

The benefit? Balancing it vs Flurry. look at it this way
Flurry does +1 or +2 hits at decreasing attack bonuses, totalling 5x normal damage, subject to 5x DR
Decisive on a full attack would cause your first hit to double the damage of the next 2 and itself. Total damage is 6x normal, only subject to 3x DR

Adding in TWF just puts another multiplier onto Decisive's advantage.

The point of Decisive Strike is one, single, large hit. As opposed to Flurry, which is a lot of small hits.

And, like I said, they introduced several full round actions, such as Fighter ACFs.

[TheMADMonk]

The benefit? Balancing it vs Flurry. look at it this way
Flurry does +1 or +2 hits at decreasing attack bonuses, totalling 5x normal damage, subject to 5x DR
Decisive on a full attack would cause your first hit to double the damage of the next 2 and itself. Total damage is 6x normal, only subject to 3x DR

Adding in TWF just puts another multiplier onto Decisive's advantage.

The point of Decisive Strike is one, single, large hit. As opposed to Flurry, which is a lot of small hits.

And, like I said, they introduced several full round actions, such as Fighter ACFs.

Fine but it is still useless just as Flurry of Blows is useless. With the theme of a character who is based around moving quickly and attacking BOTH of its primary attack methods/options are rendered useless. Why?

[Vhaidara]

Fine but it is still useless just as Flurry of Blows is useless. With the theme of a character who is based around moving quickly and attacking BOTH of its primary attack methods/options are rendered useless. Why?

Don't we have 2 threads about this right now, one of which is this? It's because MONKS ARE NOT A WELL DESIGNED CLASS.

Also, it would be a really, really bad idea to do this. Suddenly, monk is used by Uberchargers to get more multipliers on their pouncing charges.

[TheMADMonk]

Don't we have 2 threads about this right now, one of which is this? It's because MONKS ARE NOT A WELL DESIGNED CLASS.

Also, it would be a really, really bad idea to do this. Suddenly, monk is used by Uberchargers to get more multipliers on their pouncing charges.

This is why I believe Homebrew is the only hope for a Monk.
Monks MUST stay stationary to use their primary damage dealers, but they have crappy Hit Points, Crappy AC.

If we just give the ability the move to the monk it would fix a lot of its issues right there.

[Vhaidara]

This is why I believe Homebrew is the only hope for a Monk.
Monks MUST stay stationary to use their primary damage dealers, but they have crappy Hit Points, Crappy AC.

If we just give the ability the move to the monk it would fix a lot of its issues right there.

I am in full agreement with you. I personally use this monk retool (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?226857-3-5-The-Retooled-Monk-Strikes-Back-now-with-150-more-complexity!), which gives a lot of diversity in how you can build it. There are like 100 combinations of class features you can pick.

[Rubik]

Don't we have 2 threads about this right now, one of which is this? It's because MONKS ARE NOT A WELL DESIGNED CLASS.

Also, it would be a really, really bad idea to do this. Suddenly, monk is used by Uberchargers to get more multipliers on their pouncing charges.Well, ubercharging would be curtailed if flurrying was a standard action only, adding +X attacks to an attack routine. That way it wouldn't be usable during a charge.

[Vhaidara]

Well, ubercharging would be curtailed if flurrying was both a standard action only, adding +X attacks to an attack routine. That way it wouldn't be usable during a charge.

I meant combining Decisive Strike with another Full Round action. Which includes a charge. Now you have Valorous Decisive Pounce.

[TheMADMonk]

The problem is we shouldn't need a retool that extensive. Just make the class work together.

My Homebrew is not great, but I atleast try to deal with some of the issues I see in the Monk. Mostly that they are suppose to be mobile and good at maneuvers but really they suck at both.

[HaikenEdge]

Monk 20 = Party mascot.

[Rubik]

Monk 20 = Party mascot.Well, bursting through enemies in a shower of gore, screaming, "OH YEAH!" does rather make for a...erm...colorful character.

[Mato]

Mostly its MAD nature and the fact that the guy who is suppose to be fast on the battle field can't be.Perceptions.

Under point buy, a single 18 consumes 16 points and only gives a +4 bonus. To improve on this, it costs exponential amounts, so for 16 point buy points and 36,000gp you have a total of a +7 bonus in the desired attribute.

MAD classes however can pick up both a 16 and 14 in their primary and secondary attributes for the same point buy cost. Together this gives a +5 bonus in the desired attribute. For 32,000, that's 4,000 less than the SAD character, you can bring this up to +9. Chaining multiple ability scores to your values is significantly better than relying on a single stat.

And certain combinations produce much more accurately described SAD style characters, such as a monk 6 / shiba protector 1 uses wisdom to attack, damage, ac, will, and the monk's save DCs. And you still have bonuses from str & dex in some of those for better than average values.

Who said the monk is fast? The monk entry in the player's handbook only says he strikes fast outside of the same word being found in the name of one of the monk's class features.

Perhaps you mean the monk has the option to make two attacks per round six levels sooner than anyone else at low levels? Maybe it's because the monk specific mantis leap feat allows the monk to charge multiple times off his move action? Maybe it's because the monk can take 10ft steps? Maybe it's because the holy monk option consumes two bonus feats and powers the travel domain multiple times per day letting him move at his superior speed rate and still use flurry of blows or decisive strike without a problem?

You know, I'm just not sure why you think a monk is fast, but I think of him wanting to use full-attack actions like every single other mundane in the game.

[Vhaidara]

Under point buy, a single 18 consumes 16 points and only gives a +4 bonus. To improve on this, it costs exponential amounts, so for 16 point buy points and 36,000gp you have a total of a +7 bonus in the desired attribute.

MAD classes however can pick up both a 16 and 14 in their primary and secondary attributes for the same point buy cost. Together this gives a +5 bonus in the desired attribute. For 32,000, that's 4,000 less than the SAD character, you can bring this up to +9. Chaining multiple ability scores to your values is significantly better than relying on a single stat.

And certain combinations produce much more accurately described SAD style characters, such as a monk 6 / shiba protector 1 uses wisdom to attack, damage, ac, will, and the monk's save DCs. And you still have bonuses from str & dex in some of those for better than average values.

And guess what? Those SAD characters tend to get even more out of the single high score than you get out of your 2 scores. If you're referring to the AC bonus, you have to compete with full plate, which means that you are spending 16 points and 32000gp to match someone who spent 4 (12 Dex) and 1500gp (Full Plate)

Shiba Protector is amazing for Monk, but you cannot judge a class based off of a PrC that works well with it.


Who said the monk is fast? The monk entry in the player's handbook only says he strikes fast outside of the same word being found in the name of one of the monk's class features.

Perhaps you mean the monk has the option to make two attacks per round six levels sooner than anyone else at low levels? Maybe it's because the monk specific mantis leap feat allows the monk to charge multiple times off his move action? Maybe it's because the monk can take 10ft steps? Maybe it's because the holy monk option consumes two bonus feats and powers the travel domain multiple times per day letting him move at his superior speed rate and still use flurry of blows or decisive strike without a problem?

You know, I'm just not sure why you think a monk is fast, but I think of him wanting to use full-attack actions like every single other mundane in the game.

If by "Every other mundane in the game" you mean "Every other terribly designed mundane in the game", then yes. Tome of Battle classes had much better design, and technically chargers don't use the full attack action, they use the charge action.

[TheMADMonk]

Perceptions.

Under point buy, a single 18 consumes 16 points and only gives a +4 bonus. To improve on this, it costs exponential amounts, so for 16 point buy points and 36,000gp you have a total of a +7 bonus in the desired attribute.

MAD classes however can pick up both a 16 and 14 in their primary and secondary attributes for the same point buy cost. Together this gives a +5 bonus in the desired attribute. For 32,000, that's 4,000 less than the SAD character, you can bring this up to +9. Chaining multiple ability scores to your values is significantly better than relying on a single stat.

And certain combinations produce much more accurately described SAD style characters, such as a monk 6 / shiba protector 1 uses wisdom to attack, damage, ac, will, and the monk's save DCs. And you still have bonuses from str & dex in some of those for better than average values.

Who said the monk is fast? The monk entry in the player's handbook only says he strikes fast outside of the same word being found in the name of one of the monk's class features.

Perhaps you mean the monk has the option to make two attacks per round six levels sooner than anyone else at low levels? Maybe it's because the monk specific mantis leap feat allows the monk to charge multiple times off his move action? Maybe it's because the monk can take 10ft steps? Maybe it's because the holy monk option consumes two bonus feats and powers the travel domain multiple times per day letting him move at his superior speed rate and still use flurry of blows or decisive strike without a problem?

You know, I'm just not sure why you think a monk is fast, but I think of him wanting to use full-attack actions like every single other mundane in the game.

Yes at level 20 he is suppose to be able to move 90 feet per turn. That makes him fast when at level 20 most mundanes are moving 30.

Monk's primary damage output is through Flurry. Except the Monk if he hopes to flurry cannot move more then a 5 foot step. Go into combat moving nothing more then 5 feet at a time when everyone baddies includes are using 30 foot movements. Now put that against a foe with Ride By Attack or something similar and the monk is dead before he gets a chance to do much more then blink and move as slow as a zombie.

[TeslaJr]

I'm sorry, I know it has nothing to do with the discussion, but I just had to:

Monks, huh, yeah
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, oh hoh, oh hoh
Monks, huh, yeah
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, say it again y'all
Monks, huh, good God
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, listen to me

Oh, Monk, I despise
'Cause it means destruction of innocent lives
Monks mean tears to thousands of DMs eyes
When their Monks go off to fight and lose their lives

I said
Monks, huh, good God y'all
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, just say it again
Monks whoahoa Lord
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, listen to me
Monks, they ain't nothin' but a heartbreak
Monks, friend only to the undertaker

Oh Monks, an enemy to all mankind
The thought of Monks blow my mind
Monks have caused unrest within the younger generation
Induction, then destruction who wants to die

Monks, good God, y'all
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, say it, say it, say it
Monks, uh huh, yeah, huh
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, listen to me
Monks, they ain't nothin' but a heartbreaker
Monks, they got one friend that's the undertaker

Oh, Monks have shattered many player's dreams
Made him disabled bitter and mean
Life is much to short and precious to spend choosing Monks these days
Monks can't give life they can only take it away, ooh

Monks, huh, good God y'all
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, say it again
Monks, whoahoa, Lord
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, listen to me
Monks, they ain't nothin' but a heartbreaker
Monks, friend only to the undertaker

Peace love and understanding tell me
Is there no place for them today
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there's got to be a better way

Monks, huh, good God y'all
What are they good for?
You tell 'em, say it, say it, say it, say it
Monks, good Lord, huh
What are they good for?
Stand up and shout it, nothing
Monks, they ain't nothin' but a heartbreaker

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm sorry, I know it has nothing to do with the discussion, but I just had to:

Monks, huh, yeah
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, oh hoh, oh hoh
Monks, huh, yeah
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, say it again y'all
Monks, huh, good God
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, listen to me

Oh, Monk, I despise
'Cause it means destruction of innocent lives
Monks mean tears to thousands of DMs eyes
When their Monks go off to fight and lose their lives

I said
Monks, huh, good God y'all
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, just say it again
Monks whoahoa Lord
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, listen to me
Monks, they ain't nothin' but a heartbreak
Monks, friend only to the undertaker

Oh Monks, an enemy to all mankind
The thought of Monks blow my mind
Monks have caused unrest within the younger generation
Induction, then destruction who wants to die

Monks, good God, y'all
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, say it, say it, say it
Monks, uh huh, yeah, huh
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, listen to me
Monks, they ain't nothin' but a heartbreaker
Monks, they got one friend that's the undertaker

Oh, Monks have shattered many player's dreams
Made him disabled bitter and mean
Life is much to short and precious to spend choosing Monks these days
Monks can't give life they can only take it away, ooh

Monks, huh, good God y'all
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, say it again
Monks, whoahoa, Lord
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing, listen to me
Monks, they ain't nothin' but a heartbreaker
Monks, friend only to the undertaker

Peace love and understanding tell me
Is there no place for them today
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there's got to be a better way

Monks, huh, good God y'all
What are they good for?
You tell 'em, say it, say it, say it, say it
Monks, good Lord, huh
What are they good for?
Stand up and shout it, nothing
Monks, they ain't nothin' but a heartbreaker

This. Yes. Thank you. Sig'd.

[Phelix-Mu]

While we are touting monk rebuilds, I'd like to give a mention to one I've liked (maybe too much): Xaotiq1's Monk Fix. It's actually a bit too powerful, honestly, and a sensible DM should nerf a few things to limit it to sensible Tier 3 power grades. But, overall, I really love the katas, really like most of the changes to the chassis, and just think the flavor is pretty cool as well (if you like wuxia at all, ofc).

I believe that all is still linked in my extended sig.

Also, pretty cool my quick-fix was linked earlier. I like using the swift action = move 1/2 speed because it's far more versatile than many of the other FoB fixes, and gives the average monk a use for their swifts (something non-casters can have some trouble coming up with something for, aside from item activation, I guess).

[Curmudgeon]

I use Rogue as my base class normally, when other players pick Druids and Sorcerers; that way I can optimize as much as I want and not overshadow the rest of the party. When other players pick Bards and Scouts, I'll play a Monk instead, for the same reason. For me, that's what a Monk is good for: a deliberately low-power base on which to build.

[TheMADMonk]

I use Rogue as my base class normally, when other players pick Druids and Sorcerers; that way I can optimize as much as I want and not overshadow the rest of the party. When other players pick Bards and Scouts, I'll play a Monk instead, for the same reason. For me, that's what a Monk is good for: a deliberately low-power base on which to build.

So its purpose is to be utterly useless unless you optimize the hell out of it... to make it mediocre at best?

[heavyfuel]

So its purpose is to be utterly useless unless you optimize the hell out of it... to make it mediocre at best?

What I think he meant to say is not that this is his purpose, at least not the one intended by the designers, but a good way to go about playing a Monk.

It does make me wonder what class he would play when the group is Archer Fighter, Paladin and and Healer. Commoner maybe? Probably not and it's too powerful with Craft (Basketweaving)

[Snowbluff]

So its purpose is to be utterly useless unless you optimize the hell out of it... to make it mediocre at best?

I do the same thing with warlock... which is a lot more fun.

[Rubik]

I do the same thing with warlock... which is a lot more fun.I dunno. I had quite a lot of fun with this one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

[Curmudgeon]

It does make me wonder what class he would play when the group is Archer Fighter, Paladin and and Healer. Commoner maybe? Probably not and it's too powerful with Craft (Basketweaving)
No, that would have to be the Samurai from Complete Warrior, with no Imperious Command shenanigans (i.e., that feat's effects last only as long as stated, and aren't extended by squinting when you look at the Never Outnumbered skill trick).

[TeslaJr]

This. Yes. Thank you. Sig'd.

Whoo! Someone sig'd my stuff!

[Snowbluff]

I dunno. I had quite a lot of fun with this one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

I remember that. You can do that with 0 levels of monk and/or Unarmed Swordsage. 10/10 would not give credit to monk again. :smalltongue:

[Dasgovernator]

Gestalt Builds. Monks are terrible by themselves, but are useful as 2nd classes, especially for primary casters. Druid/Monk Gestalt in particular is a good combination that also has excellent flavor.

[Vhaidara]

Gestalt Builds. Monks are terrible by themselves, but are useful as 2nd classes, especially for primary casters. Druid/Monk Gestalt in particular is a good combination that also has excellent flavor.

Though it technically requires LN alignment, which I've always felt was one of the lest druidy of the druid alignments.

[Mato]

And guess what? Those SAD characters tend to get even more out of the single high score than you get out of your 2 scores. If you're referring to the AC bonus, you have to compete with full plate, which means that you are spending 16 points and 32000gp to match someone who spent 4 (12 Dex) and 1500gp (Full Plate)@Keledrath, I am not referring to ac.

But I can if you like.
I would like to point out you missed the +5 bonus the monk will obtain simply for being a monk. 14 dexterity and 12 wisdom already matches full-plate, and according to the magic item compendium the monk can upgrade his free outfit with enhancement bonuses to armor, you'd have to sink another 150gp into that 1,500gp armor to do that. And even through the full-plate wearing spent money, the naked monk has kept up and also shows higher reflex & will saves and initiative bonuses.

There is also the issue that AC doesn't prevent you from falling under the effects of sleep, color spray, web, fireball, black tentacles, dominate person, fire shield, or anything of the like. Full-plate doesn't increase your chances you won't be grappled, tripped, bullrushed, swallowed whole, crushed, thrown, hit with an orb of acid, or anyone using a wand of wraithstrike or a tome of battle maneuver. So what's your full-plate offering against the elder red dragon or beholder? With invisibility or shadow blend the monk can't even be hit with dominate or sleep. With blink he has a 20% chance to avoid the effects of black tentacles, web, fire shield, and so on. His high saves and possible evasion (if you didn't trade it away for blink) can completely negate breath weapons.

And what is it offering against melee monsters? The 20th level full-plate wearer has a 30% chance a Terrasqua doesn't hit with every single one of his attacks. A 2nd level monk can pop invisibility as an immediate action so only three out of the terrasqua's six attacks hit and if the monk moves after using invisibility then he has an 18.75% chance of being hit once. Of course, with 2nd level hit points he'd die but there is an eighteen level and 151,815gp spent difference between the two, and one of them does practically nothing.

It's so easy to trivialize the value of ac.


If by "Every other mundane in the game" you mean "Every other terribly designed mundane in the game", then yes. Tome of Battle classes had much better design, and technically chargers don't use the full attack action, they use the charge action.The monk sucks because all mundanes do is a blanket discussion. It has nothing to do with the value of a monk or the monk's purpose, it's just you complaining that anything less then the very best possible option doesn't matter.

Additionally, you are aware that all of the tome of battle base classes are MAD right? The crusader adds his charisma to his will saves and damage. The swordsage uses his wisdom for ac, damage, and maneuver DCs. If he takes the shadow hand feat he also has dexterity to damage. The warblade gets his intelligence to attack, damage, reflex, and critical confirmations. You admit they are better than every other mundane and they're MAD classes to start with. Your two points can be used to argue against each other.


Monk's primary damage output is through Flurry.The monk's primary damage out put is unarmed strike. If you need more than that, you're not using it right. Flurry is about increasing the monk's chances to hit.

[Extra Anchovies]

What I think he meant to say is not that this is his purpose, at least not the one intended by the designers, but a good way to go about playing a Monk.

It does make me wonder what class he would play when the group is Archer Fighter, Paladin and and Healer. Commoner maybe? Probably not and it's too powerful with Craft (Basketweaving)

An expert who maxes Iaijutsu Focus and takes EWP (Gnome Quickrazor). Here's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?368092-3-5-The-Killer-Expert) where I did some brainstorming for a build using that.

[Snowbluff]

Getting the bonuses from monk is better gotten from monkless Tashalatora.

As for enhancing an outfit as armor, that makes it armor, and you lose your bonus. Not to mention animated shields, bucklers, dastana, and the options to have multiple armor type enhancements is a boon.

[ArqArturo]

I think the monk, like the bard, is essentially a skill-monkey; whereas the bard focuses outward (diplomancer, magic, buffer), the monk is inward. A monk can focus on infiltration, mobility, and opportunity combat.

The monk is also a good dip for PrCs like Enlightened Fist, or the Sacred Fist.

[Extra Anchovies]

Getting the bonuses from monk is better gotten from monkless Tashalatora.

Monkless Tashalatora...

*checks the rules of the feat*

You don't actually need any monk levels to gain the benefit, do you?

[Snowbluff]

Monkless Tashalatora...

*checks the rules of the feat*

You don't actually need any monk levels to gain the benefit, do you?

Nope. It makes the build more fun, if you ask me. More powers, less monkey business, and not having to call yourself a monk are worth it.

[Vhaidara]

Additionally, you are aware that all of the tome of battle base classes are MAD right? The crusader adds his charisma to his will saves and damage. The swordsage uses his wisdom for ac, damage, and maneuver DCs. If he takes the shadow hand feat he also has dexterity to damage. The warblade gets his intelligence to attack, damage, reflex, and critical confirmations. You admit they are better than every other mundane and they're MAD classes to start with. Your two points can be used to argue against each other.

Except ToB isn't MAD. They are Multi-Ability Beneficient.

Monks without Wisdom suffer from low Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm DCs, and low AC.

Warblade with Int 10 is still incredibly strong. It just happens that he gets more than skill points from Int.

Crusader and Cha are the same way.

Swordsage is closer to MAD, but still really isn't. He still gets the armor of choice for rogues (which he is filing the role of in combat), Shadow Blade is reducing MAD since you'll always combine it with Weapon Finesse, meaning you don't need Str, and most good maneuvers don't offer saves.

Compare an elite array monk to an elite array ToB class. ToB wins.

[TheMADMonk]

I have a question about a flurry of blows issue.
So if I am using Monk of the Four Wings I gain at 12th level the ability to as a swift action grant myself 3 standard actions (for 6 Ki).
But can't you use a swift action outside of a full round action?

So couldn't I use Flurry of Blows then as a swift use Slow Time and make 3 more attacks, which at level 12 is +9/+4 and using Two weapon fighting. So isn't that 3 attacks.. 3 times?

[Theomniadept]

Invisible fist is handy sometimes.

Martial Monk only applies to the original fighter feat list.

Decisive Blow is good for archers.


Oh, yuck. How can you taint my favorite class with the worst class? What is your major malfunction? :smallyuk:
Yeah it's tainting but the only point of said build is to cast Fly and Greater Mighty Wallop and add whatever metamagic you can to that spell so you can play Flex Mantello, Muscular Mage of Manliness. Not as OP as a Wizard but when you cast Fistpunch on an enemy it at least looks cool.

This is about making viable monk builds; if we were to just compare monk builds to wizard there'd be no monk builds here.

[Harrow]

Monk was designed to kill arcane spellcasters. There are a couple problems with this.

1. Most monster are not human/elf wizards. Most people consider Enchantment a weak school because there are several monster types with blanket immunity to it. Monk has an even narrower scope : It doesn't actually get bonuses against arcane magic users, it just gets defenses against their usual tactics. A large monster that happens to have arcane spellcasting ability, such as a Dragon, still happens to be a large monster and can just eat the Monk. Monks were only really designed to fight PHB races that took levels in Wizard or Sorcerer. Anything else and they're out of their comfort zone. What's more, D&D tends to have very little PvP. Usually the only time you fight NPCs instead of monsters are if they are soldiers, bandits, pirates, or something like that, and those tend to have more Rogues, Fighters, and Warriors and fewer Wizards. You may fight a Wizard as a BBEG once every few adventures, but even then half the time he's a lich.

2. Monks were given defenses against 'standard' Wizard attacks (high touch AC and saves, SR) but they weren't themselves given anything to pierce standard Wizard defenses (nothing against invisibility, miss chance, flight, illusions, teleportation across many miles/planes). The big problem here being the Wizard defenses tend to be a lot more of a binary 'yes/no'. If you can see invisible things, invisibility is worthless. If you can't, your opponent is invincible. Monks, on the other hand, only have higher numbers. A Wizard will get a SoD past a Monk's buffed fortitude save long before the Monk jumps 200 feet in the air to punch the Wizard to death.



So there it is. A Monk is only good against an insultingly narrow group of enemies, and even then only has token resistance to attacks and no way of actually hurting those opponents. If D&D were more like Pokemon battles, with two combatants chained to each other, Movement Speed was used to determine attack order instead of Initiative, and there was no buffing before battle, including daily buffs, then the Monk would be better than its peers against two possible opponents out of a list of hundreds. But then, under these circumstances enough of a caster's benefits fall to the wayside that other mundanes could regularly take them out, so the Monk would only be marginally better.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah it's tainting but the only point of said build is to cast Fly and Greater Mighty Wallop and add whatever metamagic you can to that spell so you can play Flex Mantello, Muscular Mage of Manliness. Not as OP as a Wizard but when you cast Fistpunch on an enemy it at least looks cool.

This is about making viable monk builds; if we were to just compare monk builds to wizard there'd be no monk builds here.

*flips table* This isn't even a wizard thing! Swiftblade is my favorite class!

[Mato]

Except ToB isn't MAD. They are Multi-Ability Beneficient.

Monks without Wisdom suffer from low Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm DCs, and low AC.You have that backwards. Monk's do not need to use stunning fist and quivering palm has larger problems than it's save dc. To contrast, a wisdom-less swordsage all but gives up using shadow hand strikes and all of desert wind's area effects. Lowering your strength isn't an option either since tiger claw and setting sun require it.

The swordsage also doesn't obtain an additional +5 bonus to ac like the monk does, instead they have to purchese mithral medium armor and accept dexterity limitations. And as I have already mention ac is the least useful defensive trait you can obtain and the swordsage comes up short in this area compared to the monk.

Don't think martial classes are not MAD, maneuvers typically deal less than optimized characters to begin with. But the reason a martial adept is tiered higher has nothing to do with their offense or defense.