Dragonborn confusion

[torrasque666]

Alright, I cracked open my copy of Races of the Dragon recently and was looking at the Dragonborn "race" (is it a race? or a template?) and became slightly confused. It mentions that Dragonborn are Humanoid(Dragonblood,[Previous subtypes]) in the Racial Traits section, but then in the Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar it says that the creature keeps its type. So..... how does this work?

[Chronos]

At least one of the writers was assuming that the base creature would always be a humanoid. The usual interpretation is that the base creature can be any type, and keeps its type, whatever it was. Your DM might rule otherwise, however.

In any event, it definitely gains the dragonblood subtype, in addition to whatever other subtypes it had.

[OldTrees1]

As for your race/template question, Dragonborn is a hybrid. It is classified as a race, but like its 2 siblings* it inherits some traces of the previous race like a template would.

*Spellscale and Hellbred.

[torrasque666]

Wait, how is spellscale a hybrid? And from what I can see, I don't see anything like that on Hellbred either. Where does it say they get anything from their previous race?

[Nettlekid]

The Rite of Spellscale Assumption on pages 31 and 32 (note the sidebar on 32) have it as a templatish kind of thing. You keep a lot less than Dragonborn, so the only real benefit would be to have a +Int race, get some skill points early on, and then lose the +Int but not the spent skill points.

Hellbred really don't seem to be like that. They have vague memories of their previous life, but that's almost like a past life to them. They're pretty independently a race in and of themselves.

[OldTrees1]

Wait, how is spellscale a hybrid? And from what I can see, I don't see anything like that on Hellbred either. Where does it say they get anything from their previous race?

IIRC:
Spellscales keep their favored class (in addition to the new favored class)

Hellbred keep all languages known from their previous life

[torrasque666]

Spellscales are their own, separate race. They have nothing referring to any past, considering that they are born that way. Favored Class is Sorcerer BTW.

[Red Fel]

Spellscales are their own, separate race. They have nothing referring to any past, considering that they are born that way. Favored Class is Sorcerer BTW.

This. Same with Hellbred. Both Spellscale and Hellbred are distinct races. Dragonborn are a template, and clearly described as such.

As for the OP, the confusion has caused a good deal of debate here. While it can be universally agreed that the Dragonborn gains the (Dragonblood) subtype and retains its prior subtype(s) as well, it is ambiguous as to whether it becomes a Humanoid, must be a Humanoid to begin with, or retains its existing type.

I know there's a text-trumps-table rule, but I'm not entirely sure on whether text trumps sidebar or vice-versa.

[Nettlekid]

Spellscales are their own, separate race. They have nothing referring to any past, considering that they are born that way. Favored Class is Sorcerer BTW.

Um.
Um...
Like I just said...


The Rite of Spellscale Assumption is a rare procedure
that allows a character to fully manifest latent draconic
potential within his body, transforming from a member
of his original race into a spellscale.
Et al.

Yes, they breed true. Yes, they can spontaneously be born by non-spellscale parents of Sorcerous heritage. Yes, they can be transformed into one from a previous race. That's why they're not quite templates and not quite races. I agree that they're more race than template. But you CAN be turned from Elf or Human or whatever into one.

[Red Fel]

Um.
Um...
Like I just said...

Et al.

Yes, they breed true. Yes, they can spontaneously be born by non-spellscale parents of Sorcerous heritage. Yes, they can be transformed into one from a previous race. That's why they're not quite templates and not quite races. I agree that they're more race than template. But you CAN be turned from Elf or Human or whatever into one.

Being able to transform into something doesn't make it a template. It makes it a replacement.

The Rite of Spellscale Assumption replaces all racial traits with those of the Spellscale. Nothing survives, complete wipe. That's not a template. A template modifies the base creature. Dragonborn is a template; it adds Dragonborn qualities to the base creature and removes certain other features. Spellscale isn't "more race than template." They are a race. They are not a template.

If I cast Polymorph Any Object on a Halfling and turn it into a Red Dragon, I haven't applied the Draconic template; I've turned it into a Dragon. Having the form changed, even permanently, isn't the same as applying a template.

[torrasque666]

Huh. TIL that I need to read further down into the section I had thought was mostly fluff. And read posts more carefully. And to not overlook Nettlekid.

[OldTrees1]

Spellscales are their own, separate race. They have nothing referring to any past, considering that they are born that way. Favored Class is Sorcerer BTW.


The technical details of giving up your previous race and taking on the aspects of the spellscale race are different from those for a character who assumes a creature template. The Rite of Spellscale Assumption does not add a template to your previous racial characteristics—it replaces most of your original racial traits.
Languages: You retain any languages you already know. You gain Draconic as an automatic language.
Favored Class: You retain your original favored classes and gain sorcerer as an additional favored class.


Automatic Languages: Infernal. Hellbred gain the ability to speak Infernal upon their transformation, but they do not lose the ability to speak languages they previously knew before the Scourging.

Funny what hidden details there are in the books. These 3 races are races but they also inherit something from their past. In this way they are like templates. They are not templates, but they are more like templates than every other race printed. In fact they are close enough that calling them race/template hybrids is not unreasonable.

[Nettlekid]

Being able to transform into something doesn't make it a template. It makes it a replacement.

The Rite of Spellscale Assumption replaces all racial traits with those of the Spellscale. Nothing survives, complete wipe. That's not a template. A template modifies the base creature. Dragonborn is a template; it adds Dragonborn qualities to the base creature and removes certain other features. Spellscale isn't "more race than template." They are a race. They are not a template.

If I cast Polymorph Any Object on a Halfling and turn it into a Red Dragon, I haven't applied the Draconic template; I've turned it into a Dragon. Having the form changed, even permanently, isn't the same as applying a template.

Almost entirely so, you're quite right, which is why I said they were much more like a race than a template. But a single thing does stay: Extra skill points you get from racial Int mods. If you were some Humanoid race with a high racial bonus to Int (Gray/Sun Elf, Deep Imaskari come to mind, I don't know if there are any higher LA or RHD Humanoids that do) then you can cash out on extra skill points in the early levels and then convert to Spellscale. Sure, it's a difference of like 8-13 skill points, but that's something. It's memories of a life apart from your new body. And you have significant flavor differences in not growing up with the same stigma and social prejudice as Spellscales are described in the chapter. It's true, it functions a lot more like having Reincarnation cast on you, but to say that there's no remnant of the original race isn't entirely true.

[Chronos]

Quoth Red Fel:

Dragonborn are a template, and clearly described as such.
Actually, that word is never once used of dragonborn. It's treated almost as though it were a template, but it isn't. This matters, for instance, for Alter Self: You can't use Alter Self to turn into a creature with a template, but you can use it to turn into a dragonborn.

Incidentally, if it were actually a template, we probably wouldn't need to be having this discussion, since the description for every template starts with "_____ is a template which can be added to any _____". In the case of dragonborn, it might be something like "Dragonborn is a template which can be added to any humanoid", or maybe "Dragonborn is a template which can be added to any living creature".