Eberron Religions and Detect Evil

[TheTeaMustFlow]

One of the major differences between Eberron and most D&D settings is that Clerics are not restricted in alignment. This creates much more greyness in the setting as one can encounter both evil Silver Flame worshippers and good clerics of Vol.

But is it ever explained how these unusually-aligned priests all get past the detect alignment spells?

I mean, consider the Silver Flame. Our local friendly RCC expy, the Flame is highly organised, and fanatically dedicated to destroying evil. Such an organisation would probably consider `possesses an evil alignment` to be a pretty big disqualifier for membership. Furthermore, apart from it's many clerics, all of whom can cast detect evil, it's also known for having an unusually high number of Paladins, who a) cast detect evil at will, and b) are not known for toleration of evil, particularly in their own ranks (and in fact, can fall if they tolerate it too much).

So why on Earth do they not screen their applicants? I mean, they're obviously not letting in any moron who wants to be a cleric, so they're presumably judging based on aptitude etc (every priest you see has an above-average wisdom, so they must be rejecting applicants with wisdom too low to cast spells), so why aren't they detecting every applicant as well? It'd take 18 seconds and 1 1st level spell slot for a cleric, and 18 seconds and nothing else for a pally. That's a lot easier than checking someone's CRB records.

And even if a cleric turned to evil later, he'd still be associating with his fellow clerics and, more importantly, paladins, on a regular basis. Paladins who can walk into a room, detect an evil presence, concentrate for 18 seconds, and find out that Jim from Accounting is evil. He probably doesn't instantly leap into smiting mode, but you'd still expect him to act on it in some way.

Admittedly, a higher-level cleric would be able to find a way to disguise their alignment, and it might be easier for a misfit alignment in other churches (the Host for example, is neither as picky nor as organised, and Vol, say, probably doesn't much care what alignment you are), but even then, I'm still finding it hard to see a way for there to be many evil people prospering among a group the members of which can detect evil, and are vehemently opposed to it.

[Ettina]

I thought evil clerics followed evil gods.

[deuxhero]

You actually get an aura of your god's alignment, not your own (or is it both? Actually I'll ask that), if you are a cleric.

In Eberron most "priests" are experts and incapable of using detect evil.

@Ettina
Eberron is different

[phlidwsn]

Some links that make help you sourt out detect evil in Eberron:

Dragonshards on Silver Flame (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a)

Keith Baker's thoughts on good and evil in Eberron (http://bossythecow.com/hdwt/2012/04/dragonmarks-44-good-and-evil/)

Keith Baker's houserule for his own Eberron Campaign on Detect Evil (http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-411-religion-and-faith/)

[hamishspence]

Keith Baker wasn't the only one to consider the possibility of "narrowing the definition of Neutral" - the writers of Quintessential Paladin II did as well with their "Low Grade Evil Everywhere" description:


Low Grade Evil Everywhere
In some campaigns, the common population is split roughly evenly among the various alignments - the kindly old grandmother who gives boiled sweets to children is Neutral Good and that charming rake down the pub is Chaotic Neutral. Similarly the thug lurking in the alleyway is Chaotic Evil, while the grasping landlord who throws granny out on the street because she's a copper behind on the rent is Lawful Evil.

In such a campaign up to a third of the population will detect as Evil to the paladin. This low grade Evil is a fact of life, and is not something the paladin can defeat. Certainly he should not draw his greatsword and chop the landlord in twain just because he has a mildly tainted aura. It might be appropriate for the paladin to use Diplomacy (or Intimidation) to steer the landlord toward the path of good but stronger action is not warranted.

In such a campaign detect evil cannot be used to infallibly detect villainy, as many people are a little bit evil. if he casts detect evil on a crowded street, about a third of the population will detect as faintly evil.

To the point that I tend to the view that in 3.5, alignment is supposed to be that way and Neutral is supposed to be on the narrow side, and represent a little over 1/3 of the human population in a typical D&D world, rather than the vast majority of it.

However that might just be my biases.

[Kol Korran]

Some links that make help you sourt out detect evil in Eberron:

Dragonshards on Silver Flame (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a)

Keith Baker's thoughts on good and evil in Eberron (http://bossythecow.com/hdwt/2012/04/dragonmarks-44-good-and-evil/)

Keith Baker's houserule for his own Eberron Campaign on Detect Evil (http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-411-religion-and-faith/)

These are good articles to keep in mind, but also consider this: PC classes are VERY, VERY rare in Eberron. A cleric is someone of a rare and highly sought of power. A paladin just as well- Someone who was CALLED by divine power to act as it's warrior on this world. They are not your average person who decides to just "pick up a class". In Eberron, they are extremely rare, unique and far between.

Most of the religions followers are warriors, expert, and other NPC classes.

As such, these people who have PC classes do not occupy simple screening positions. The paladin will be out fighting great evil, the cleric sent to the places of the most dire emergency to the faith, and so on. They are not clerks, they are the highly specialized super skilled special ops of their religions...

As such, I would imagine few low level "problematic" alignment people get more trouble then a scrutiny of their peers (Which can be fooled). I imagine people who rise to higher ranks may have to face some more magical/ spiritual tests, but at higher levels, these can be fooled as well.

[Spore]

As such, I would imagine few low level "problematic" alignment people get more trouble then a scrutiny of their peers (Which can be fooled). I imagine people who rise to higher ranks may have to face some more magical/ spiritual tests, but at higher levels, these can be fooled as well.

In the same sense I cannot see an evil acolyte starting up his career in the church. MAYBE a neutral one. By the time they're tested he has a spell or some sort of magic to fool the testers as well as more ranks in Diplomacy and Bluff to fool them.

[Fax Celestis]

These are good articles to keep in mind, but also consider this: PC classes are VERY, VERY rare in Eberron. A cleric is someone of a rare and highly sought of power. A paladin just as well- Someone who was CALLED by divine power to act as it's warrior on this world. They are not your average person who decides to just "pick up a class". In Eberron, they are extremely rare, unique and far between.

Nnnnno, PC classes are common. People over level 6 are not.

[Grayson01]

Another plausible reason could be that what the CoTSF consideres "Evil" is not the DnD aura or quality of evil represented by the alignment system, but a philosophy of out look of their own thinking. I mean this is a church of good and holy things that thought it was a holy action to go on a genicidal purging of several species. Maybe the DnD concept of Evil auras does not fall into the CoFS dogma of "evil" but a LG Weretigar saving Orphans from a burning Orphanage is.

[123456789blaaa]

Another plausible reason could be that what the CoTSF consideres "Evil" is not the DnD aura or quality of evil represented by the alignment system, but a philosophy of out look of their own thinking. I mean this is a church of good and holy things that thought it was a holy action to go on a genicidal purging of several species. Maybe the DnD concept of Evil auras does not fall into the CoFS dogma of "evil" but a LG Weretigar saving Orphans from a burning Orphanage is.

:smallsigh:

Sorry for the sigh but it really frustrates me whenever this shows up. The Silver Flame tried to purge the evil lycanthropes because they would have otherwise engulfed all of Khorvaire. Yes they also killed good lycanthropes and shifters but that was a horrible mistake and is acknowledged as such by the Church today. The Silver Flame saved the entire continent from destruction and gave their lives to help protect the innocent. I would suggest reading this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?304333-The-Church-of-the-Silver-Flame-and-the-lycanthrope-purge)for debate on the subject.

[Jeff the Green]

:smallsigh:

Sorry for the sigh but it really frustrates me whenever this shows up. The Silver Flame tried to purge the evil lycanthropes because they would have otherwise engulfed all of Khorvaire. Yes they also killed good lycanthropes and shifters but that was a horrible mistake and is acknowledged as such by the Church today. The Silver Flame saved the entire continent from destruction and gave their lives to help protect the innocent. I would suggest reading this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?304333-The-Church-of-the-Silver-Flame-and-the-lycanthrope-purge)for debate on the subject.

Uh huh. You have to remember that Eberron has 12 moons, and if even one of them is full—boom, furries everywhere. Assuming that they have the same periodicity as Earth's moon and their alignment is random (I have no idea whether this is true at all) that's five nights a month where you're safe. This means lycanthropes are more dangerous and that the disease spreads faster.

[hamishspence]

Yes they also killed good lycanthropes and shifters but that was a horrible mistake and is acknowledged as such by the Church today.

In some cases. In others, it was people pursuing vendettas:

Races of Eberron p34:

Some of the Church's less than honorable leaders used the crusade as an excuse to pursue private vendettas against shifter communities or to gather great profit at the expense of shifter lives.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Nnnnno, PC classes are common. People over level 6 are not.

nnnnnno, PC classes are expected to be both rare and low level in Eberron as stated in articles by Keith Baker (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a) and Sean K Reynolds (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebug/20041227a) Anyone with a PC class is someone of note, if you run Eberron differently then that's cool but the default is that anyone with a PC class is something special.

[backwaterj]

Let's not forget that the Silver Flame is a nation-spanning theocracy prone to factions, strife, and corruption, possibly even from the very Flame itself. It's very possible the church is training that recruit not because of the goodness of his heart but because he knows a guy who knows a guy who knows the cardinal (or has bribed said cardinal, or who serves his purposes, or . . . you get the idea). In such cases even the objections of a cleric or paladin with the "proof" of a detect evil spell might go unheeded.

[Fax Celestis]

nnnnnno, PC classes are expected to be both rare and low level in Eberron as stated in articles by Keith Baker (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a) and Sean K Reynolds (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebug/20041227a) Anyone with a PC class is someone of note, if you run Eberron differently then that's cool but the default is that anyone with a PC class is something special.

Whatever the articles say is cool, but the actual books and adventures say otherwise with their NPCs.

[Grayson01]

Uh huh. You have to remember that Eberron has 12 moons, and if even one of them is full—boom, furries everywhere. Assuming that they have the same periodicity as Earth's moon and their alignment is random (I have no idea whether this is true at all) that's five nights a month where you're safe. This means lycanthropes are more dangerous and that the disease spreads faster.

DnD lycanthropes are limited to turning on the full moon; they can turn any can turn anytime they feel.

And to even try and justify slaughtering several different types of creatures to "weed" out the evil ones, even if said evil ones are the majority, is still an evil act and idea. Also the so called multi-nation spaning threat of "so called" lycanthrope menace could just as well been proganda by a few high placed evil clergymen. This is Ebberon where you can have an ex-assassin Cleric of the Silverflame, A good werewolf and a good vampire, heck all in the same book.

Also the atrocities of the Silverflame was not only conducted in the Purge but during the last war, where Paladin legionaries slaughtered whole villages of the enemy (see Heirs of the Ash Trilogy)

[hamishspence]

they can turn any can turn anytime they feel.

Natural lycanthropes, yes. Afflicted lycanthropes have that whole "Control Shape" deal:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm


Check (Involuntary Change)
An afflicted character must make a check at moonrise each night of the full moon to resist involuntarily assuming animal form. An injured character must also check for an involuntary change after accumulating enough damage to reduce his hit points by one-quarter and again after each additional one-quarter lost.

And since Baker came up with the idea in 3.0, Afflicted Lycanthropes, during the purge era only, had the 3.0 "contagious lycanthropy" trait, making them as contagious as 3.5 Natural Lycanthropes.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Whatever the articles say is cool, but the actual books and adventures say otherwise with their NPCs.

and that's how many NPCs with PC levels out of a population of how many? The ones that are statted up are only the truly exceptional and of course the PCs are going to encounter the exceptional people, otherwise it wouldn't be much of an adventure. The point is if they start trouble in a random tavern the bartender isn't going to be a level 16 fighter, if an evil cleric is doing villainous things in the church it's because his contemporaries are level 3 adepts

[Prime32]

Uh huh. You have to remember that Eberron has 12 moons, and if even one of them is full—boom, furries everywhere. Assuming that they have the same periodicity as Earth's moon and their alignment is random (I have no idea whether this is true at all) that's five nights a month where you're safe. This means lycanthropes are more dangerous and that the disease spreads faster.The Purge started after all 12 moons became full at the same time, driving all lycanthropes mad and letting them spread natural lycanthropy rather than afflicted (meaning infectees could infect others) - basically the furry equivalent of a zombie apocalypse. The problem is that the Church kept killing long after the lunar alignment was over.