Reverse Levelling

[Vhaidara]

I just had a campaign idea.

Players start at 20th level, and are cursed by the evil cult they are fighting. Something about the nature of the curse prevents it from being broken except by fulfillment of a condition: every member of the cult must be killed or redeemed.

The party begins fighting the leader of the cult, but the cult itself is widespread across the world. After the fight, they level down. Power is drained from their magic items (keeping them at WBL).

Every time the party overcomes part of the cult, they lose a level, until eventually they reach level 1 to fight the last holdout of the cult.

Of course, once the curse is broken, they not only get their XP back, but they also get XP for all the cultists they fought.

Anyone think this could be fun? Anything I'm missing that would screw me? I know that high level casters would bork it all, but my players understand not defeating the idea of the campaign.

[DustyBottoms]

This is a really clever idea; as long as you let them know before the campaign that this is what was happening, it could work very well. If you spring it upon them, some builds (particularly melee) could see much bigger drops if they don't plan ahead for backwards-progression.

[Harlot]

It's a cool idea, but I'm not sure I'd stretch at a full 20 levels. Afterall it might be quite hard to keep up the motivaton, knowing that for every fight or skirmish your übercool character will be less cool , you'll have less gadgets and eventually a cat could kill or severely threaten you.
However for a shorter campaign or maybe just in the span of 5-10 levels of play - of those 20 - so that the goal and the gaining of XP is not too far away, I think the idea is briliant. Maybe in the middle/early levels where the power- discrepancy between the tiers is not too big.

[Fouredged Sword]

The mechanics used to enforce WBL will be hard. You would have to iron that out ahead of time and be clear and concise in how it will work. Are players still finding gold/wealth to buy new things, or are you locking their gear somehow?

[With a box]

I would advise to ban t1s
20th level wizard will kill then all at first fight(or genocide)
Or hire someone else do that for them
Or ice assassin thenself
Or thought bottle
Or summoned solars
Or don't care about curse at all

[Vhaidara]

The mechanics used to enforce WBL will be hard. You would have to iron that out ahead of time and be clear and concise in how it will work. Are players still finding gold/wealth to buy new things, or are you locking their gear somehow?

This mostly comes down to "The curse is a serious FU". As I mentioned, their magic items get drained. This will also apply to new items they get, until they have appropriate WBL.

EDIT: I'm not banning any classes. Like I said, my players won't break the premise if I ask them. They will get mad if I arbitrarily ban Wizard and Sorcerer, which can very easily not be built to high tier standards.

[With a box]

Don't they just hire a 18th party for to that for it? (Pre-pay them)

[nedz]

A large part of the game is aspirational; where players look forward to how their characters will develop. You will be breaking this paradime, which may cause some issues.

[Segev]

I'd had a similar idea once, but with a video game where the PC is a god who starts off, well, godly. As the game progresses, he loses more and more of his power, and has to gather the rest of the party (who are mortals that have somehow acquired the lost portions of his power).

It's an interesting idea, I think, but it would be tricky to do well without having the high-level party just "win."

[Brookshw]

Sounds fine to me, I'd chuckle a bit towards the end probably as we're foiled at locked doors and other level 1 challenges.

[2xMachina]

It's a cool idea, but I'm not sure I'd stretch at a full 20 levels. Afterall it might be quite hard to keep up the motivaton, knowing that for every fight or skirmish your übercool character will be less cool , you'll have less gadgets and eventually a cat could kill or severely threaten you.
However for a shorter campaign or maybe just in the span of 5-10 levels of play - of those 20 - so that the goal and the gaining of XP is not too far away, I think the idea is briliant. Maybe in the middle/early levels where the power- discrepancy between the tiers is not too big.

You could try: Lvl 6 to 1, then lvl up to 11, then down to 6, up to 16 down to 11, then up to 20, down to 16, and a final epic battle at 21+.

Minibosses at each quarter that breaks part of the curse & releases their XP. There's still motivation, and a general feel of up progress.

[Chronos]

Another problem: High-level characters are tough to play. You're drowning in options. If you start low and level up gradually, you can get used to your options gradually as they come online, but if you start right at the top, it's overwhelming.

All that said, of course, if your particular players will enjoy it, that's their business.

[Vhaidara]

Another problem: High-level characters are tough to play. You're drowning in options. If you start low and level up gradually, you can get used to your options gradually as they come online, but if you start right at the top, it's overwhelming.

If I was playing with new people, I would never try this. But my group is fairly experienced (min 1.5 years each, the veterans like me have been playing pretty much since 3.5 came out), so it shouldn't be a problem.

[OldTrees1]

If I was playing with new people, I would never try this. But my group is fairly experienced (min 1.5 years each, the veterans like me have been playing pretty much since 3.5 came out), so it shouldn't be a problem.

Yeah, I am jealous of your players. This sounds like a neat 1-time event.

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, I am jealous of your players. This sounds like a neat 1-time event.

Well, this idea happening also involves me getting to GM again. I'm fifth in line in a group of around 10, with 5 campaigns running (one guy is running 2 in the same world)

[Requiem_Jeer]

One big suggestion I'd have for you is to not have the final battle be at level 1. Stop at level of power where things are a little more solid on the players, like 5 or 6.

[jjcrpntr]

Somebody posted in a thread a while ago an idea of having all players start at level 20, but every time they'd "gain" xp they'd actually lose it. The idea was to have them find roleplay ways around encounters and to reach the BBEG and finish the campaign while losing as little xp as they could. That sounded like a ton of fun.

[Andezzar]

Somebody posted in a thread a while ago an idea of having all players start at level 20, but every time they'd "gain" xp they'd actually lose it. The idea was to have them find roleplay ways around encounters and to reach the BBEG and finish the campaign while losing as little xp as they could. That sounded like a ton of fun.Use divination to find out who the BBEG is, teleport to him kill him, one encounter. Or maybe some more until you find out that experience does not work normally.

Regarding the OP's idea: While the PCs cut off the head of the snake so to speak in the beginning, what's keeping the rest of the cult from leveling up and surpassing the PCs before they get to them?

[Vhaidara]

Regarding the OP's idea: While the PCs cut off the head of the snake so to speak in the beginning, what's keeping the rest of the cult from leveling up and surpassing the PCs before they get to them?

Because it is falling apart. The cult would be a large one, but with a central command. The ambitious and effective members would be killed off by level 13 or so, the ambitious and less effective members would be dead by 6, and after that it's mostly people who abandoned the cult after it dissolved but never actually repented.

[Andezzar]

Especially if the cult is wide spread, they probably won't get all members of a certain tier at the same time. While members of that tier are still alive, they and all members of lower tiers could gain experience, unless they to are subject to some change in the XP mechanic.

Also what's keeping the PCs from researching and possibly breaking the curse instead of going after the cult?

[Vhaidara]

Especially if the cult is wide spread, they probably won't get all members of a certain tier at the same time. While members of that tier are still alive, they and all members of lower tiers could gain experience, unless they to are subject to some change in the XP mechanic.

Two things
1. They do level. They happen to reach a certain level of power when the PCs get there, which matches the level the PCs are at.
2. I say they are level appropriate.


Also what's keeping the PCs from researching and possibly breaking the curse instead of going after the cult?

The fact that the curse is only coincidentally (technically) linked to the killing of the cultists. I'm thinking of mixing in the Geas clause, where if they aren't pursuing the goal, it makes the clock tick faster. So, normally, they would lose a level a year in pursuit of the cult, but if they aren't hunting, it's a level a week/day.

Also, my players being willing to go along with the premise plot.

[Chronos]

Quoth jjcrpntr:

Somebody posted in a thread a while ago an idea of having all players start at level 20, but every time they'd "gain" xp they'd actually lose it. The idea was to have them find roleplay ways around encounters and to reach the BBEG and finish the campaign while losing as little xp as they could. That sounded like a ton of fun.
How does roleplaying around encounters help with that? You still gain (or presumably, lose) the same amount of XP from a challenge no matter how you deal with it.

[molten_dragon]

I just had a campaign idea.

Players start at 20th level, and are cursed by the evil cult they are fighting. Something about the nature of the curse prevents it from being broken except by fulfillment of a condition: every member of the cult must be killed or redeemed.

The party begins fighting the leader of the cult, but the cult itself is widespread across the world. After the fight, they level down. Power is drained from their magic items (keeping them at WBL).

Every time the party overcomes part of the cult, they lose a level, until eventually they reach level 1 to fight the last holdout of the cult.

Of course, once the curse is broken, they not only get their XP back, but they also get XP for all the cultists they fought.

Anyone think this could be fun? Anything I'm missing that would screw me? I know that high level casters would bork it all, but my players understand not defeating the idea of the campaign.

It could make for an interesting campaign, but I agree with previous posters that I don't know if it would be fun for 20 levels.

Also, making level 20 characters from scratch is a real pain in the ass, and would be even worse this time around since you'd have to not only make the character at 20, but track what you did at every level before that, so you could de-level them each time.

Plus some builds that work well at high levels, don't work so good at low ones, and most people aren't used to thinking in terms of losing levels over their career, so you could end up with some people that have extremely weak builds by the time you get to low levels.

[Vhaidara]

I wouldn't have them build step by step. I would have them build a 20th level character, and level down regularly. It's like levelling up, but backwards.

[jjcrpntr]

How does roleplaying around encounters help with that? You still gain (or presumably, lose) the same amount of XP from a challenge no matter how you deal with it.

I don't k kw it wasn't my idea. Someone else put it in a thread and I thought it sounded cool.

[backwaterj]

I wouldn't have them build step by step. I would have them build a 20th level character, and level down regularly. It's like levelling up, but backwards.

"Leveling down regularly" is easier said than done. It requires precise tracking of skill points, hit points, ability increases (which can affect either of the former), etc. by level. Otherwise, for example, if you roll poorly you may end up in negative hit points by the time you hit level 5. For ease of reference later I'd build them level-by-level now.

Also, actual wealth (that is, gold) may be a problem. By campaign's end they may figure out mercenaries are a thing, or attempt to simply buy more powerful magic items, unless the curse affects coin too.

That said, you know your players better than I do. This is a very cool concept and I hope it comes to fruition.

[Spore]

Every time the party overcomes part of the cult, they lose a level

That is the most frustrating thing in the entire world for players like me. If you solve a problem you loose something for it. Sorry but I would HATE that notion. Still, Warcraft 3 The Frozen Throne did exactly that. Successful and with motivation.

You just need a counter progression to distract from the downfall. And no, defeating the cult isn't that progression. Maybe a thriving country they rule or the land that gets freed from the grip of the cultists. Still, level 20 is far too high to start with something like that. 20-1 is also too huge a gap. I would recommend 10th level with half WBL to start with. Go down to 3rd level or so. then reverse to instantly go to 12 or even 13.

[ericgrau]

It sounds like a cool idea to try something new and unique, but it will lose its newness long before the 20 levels are up. Plus at level 1 they might die to an anticlimatic sneeze. I think level 10 might be a better point to stop, or rapid deprogression to level 5, or 15 to 5, or etc.

Also, how do you keep non-magical gold & etc. down to WBL? Near the end they may get crazy alchemical and/or mechanical and/or get a keep with a hired army. You can expect them to not break the system but you can't expect them to play totally dumb. If you don't make a disappearing wealth curse, you might openly suggest going crazy mundane-wealthy to them. Along with using lots of high power expendables at high level since the magic will be gone soon anyway and at high level you can only do so much without magic. Staffs full of high charge cost 8th & 9th level spells are amazing for this, not only for casters but also for those with 1 level caster dips or UMD. Set a charge cost limit ahead of time (2-5 charges per spell probably). There are also lots of amazing one-off items for non-casters like dust of disappearance. All of these I like to use even if it isn't a weird campaign.

[StoneCipher]

I would say make it so that the curse only applies in unhallowed sites, that way you can have them fight normal things from time to time and they'll be able to use full power.

[SVamp]

Make it a battle against time, each X sessions they loose a chunk of levels ("each full moon, you will loose XYZ") , just make X constant. They gain exp and items per normal but then loose a lot each few sessions, giving them a sense of urgency: do we help these villagers (and get more exp and loot and don't abandon them to their fate, or should we try to get a move on?)

Aim for them to defeat the big bad around level 6 at the lowest, and you likely want 8: still powerful enough to be interesting and for the final fight to not be a joke.

Also I'd make finding the cultist bases difficult. They tend to hide and such, they have to look for clues and what not.

Frankly the premise sounds cool.

[Vhaidara]

Good comments


"Leveling down regularly" is easier said than done. It requires precise tracking of skill points, hit points, ability increases (which can affect either of the former), etc. by level. Otherwise, for example, if you roll poorly you may end up in negative hit points by the time you hit level 5. For ease of reference later I'd build them level-by-level now.

Well, I prefer to do max HP per level. And so you remove one levels worth of skill points and hit points, lower your BAB and saves, lose class feature you'd gained, and possibly lose a feat (ones you don't qualify for first, then any)


Also, actual wealth (that is, gold) may be a problem. By campaign's end they may figure out mercenaries are a thing, or attempt to simply buy more powerful magic items, unless the curse affects coin too.

Again, I would be trusting my players to not break the theme with stuff like this. I have a lot of trust in my players.


That said, you know your players better than I do. This is a very cool concept and I hope it comes to fruition.

I'm hoping I know them as well as I think I do...


That is the most frustrating thing in the entire world for players like me. If you solve a problem you loose something for it. Sorry but I would HATE that notion. Still, Warcraft 3 The Frozen Throne did exactly that. Successful and with motivation.

That was actually the scene that inspired me.


You just need a counter progression to distract from the downfall. And no, defeating the cult isn't that progression. Maybe a thriving country they rule or the land that gets freed from the grip of the cultists. Still, level 20 is far too high to start with something like that. 20-1 is also too huge a gap. I would recommend 10th level with half WBL to start with. Go down to 3rd level or so. then reverse to instantly go to 12 or even 13.

I might change up the levels, but the idea is supposed to be racing against the weakness.


It sounds like a cool idea to try something new and unique, but it will lose its newness long before the 20 levels are up. Plus at level 1 they might die to an anticlimatic sneeze. I think level 10 might be a better point to stop, or rapid deprogression to level 5, or 15 to 5, or etc.

Actually, by the time they get past level 5, I wasn't really intending combat encounters. At that point, it's tracking down people who were in the cult for like a month before it fell and then went "Screw this, bad idea!"


Also, how do you keep non-magical gold & etc. down to WBL? Near the end they may get crazy alchemical and/or mechanical and/or get a keep with a hired army. You can expect them to not break the system but you can't expect them to play totally dumb. If you don't make a disappearing wealth curse, you might openly suggest going crazy mundane-wealthy to them. Along with using lots of high power expendables at high level since the magic will be gone soon anyway and at high level you can only do so much without magic. Staffs full of high charge cost 8th & 9th level spells are amazing for this, not only for casters but also for those with 1 level caster dips or UMD. Set a charge cost limit ahead of time (2-5 charges per spell probably). There are also lots of amazing one-off items for non-casters like dust of disappearance. All of these I like to use even if it isn't a weird campaign.

Actually, I was planning on having a disappearing wealth aspect to the curse. Things just stop working for them.


I would say make it so that the curse only applies in unhallowed sites, that way you can have them fight normal things from time to time and they'll be able to use full power.

Given that they defeat the cult early (this is top down destruction), this wouldn't work as well as you think.


Make it a battle against time, each X sessions they loose a chunk of levels ("each full moon, you will loose XYZ") , just make X constant. They gain exp and items per normal but then loose a lot each few sessions, giving them a sense of urgency: do we help these villagers (and get more exp and loot and don't abandon them to their fate, or should we try to get a move on?)

This I would consider, except that we suck at staying on topic. 2 combats can easily be a 6 hour session for us.


Aim for them to defeat the big bad around level 6 at the lowest, and you likely want 8: still powerful enough to be interesting and for the final fight to not be a joke.

Actually, the final cultist would be a first level commoner with a family.

The final boss would be the demon who was powering the curse. Once it's broken and they level back up immediately, he shows up for epic final boss fight.


Also I'd make finding the cultist bases difficult. They tend to hide and such, they have to look for clues and what not.

Again, most of them aren't even in the cult any more. They're random people.


Frankly the premise sounds cool.

My thanks, good sir.