[3.5] How to simulate a knowledgeable character in gestalt?

[HaikenEdge]

How does one go around building a knowledgeable (well-educated, book-smart) character who uses their knowledge in as many situations as possible? Assuming a gestalt setting and the character takes maximum ranks in all 10 of the PHB Knowledge skills, the build looks like it would function best with either Rogue or Scout on one side for the 8 skill points, and possibly even be a Rilkan to get the Rilkan Rogue 3 substitution for Lore as a class feature. From there, where should the build go? Archivist for Dark Knowledge? Factotum for Intelligence synergy? Seer for Psychic Knowledge?

Regarding books, assume all 1st and 2nd party materials are allowed. I'm open to learning about any class (and class combination), race, template, feat, etc, that could help in building such a character concept.

[geekintheground]

factotum//changeling rogue? factotum gives you the knowldege skills, and the changeling rogue substitution levels give you 10+int skill points (at 1st, 3rd, and i THINK 6th(?)).

[HaikenEdge]

All the Knowledge skills can be had as class skills with Education, so the Factotum's benefit of all the Knowledge skills is pretty much a wash, though the Changeling Rogue's +4 or +5 (depending on how you read it) to all Knowledge skills is pretty much worth 3 or 4 feats, so that's probably a better idea than the Rilkan rogue I was thinking of.

[Requiem_Jeer]

I would be remiss is failing to mention the knowledge devotion feat, for leveraging the knowledge skill into attack and damage boosts.

[HaikenEdge]

Yeah, Knowledge Devotion is definitely on my list of feats to look at (and likely take), but I wish there was a way to share the bonus with party members, though I think that's closer to the Archivist's Dark Knowledge class feature (which also applies to less things).

[jjcrpntr]

I played a gestalt Cloistered Cleric/Wizard (ya ya I know) had a 20 int, nymphs kiss at level 1, knowledge devotion, education feat (nature/religion). So as a human I was getting 6 (cloistered cleric) +5 (int) 1 (human) 1(nymph's kiss). I had every major knowledge skill maxed and most had close to max ranks. Granted we only played to level 5 before the dm quit for reasons outside of game.

The character was a cleric of an obscure god that gave the war domain and had the warhammer favorite weapon. So my guy was roleplayed as being a bookworm that spent all his time with his face in a book. I even took, and roleplayed, the inattentive flaw. But he knew at least a little about everything. First thing I'd do in a fight, roll knowledge check, get my +2 or 3 minimum bonus to attacks and damage, go to town. Was a fun class. That coupled with the abrupt jaunt ACF for the wizard side of the gestalt I was a real bitch for the DM to combat against.

[Jeff the Green]

Hmm. Bardic Sage 5/Urban Savant 10/Paragnostic Apostle 5//Changeling Rogue 12/Factotum 8

You get Bardic Knowledge as a level 15 bard, a +4 bonus to Knowledge from Changeling Rogue levels and +3 on nature, dungeoneering, and local from Urban Savant, you can find stuff out (Gather Information) much quicker thanks to Changeling Rogue (plus some other benefits to social skills), pseudo-Dark Knowledge from Urban Savant, some benefits from being a member of the Paragnostic Assembly, and some knowledge-related benefits from Paragnostic Apostle. Plus all the Factotum goodies. You also get 10 skill points/level for 3 levels (including 1st), 8/level for 9, and 6/level for 8. Not quite as many as Rogue 20, but the other benefits are worth it.

You could replace a bard level with Cloistered Cleric for free Knowledge Devotion and a couple useful domains. You could also replace a level of Paragnostic Apostle for Divine Oracle (use Frog God's Fane for the requisite Skill Focus).

Edit: Kaledrath reminds me. Dropping a level of Bard for Marshal isn't a bad idea since you'll get 6ths with no problem.

[Vhaidara]

I've actually built this in tristalt, but it works in gestalt as well.

Race
Anything with +Int
Illumian: +2, +3 with a feat. Also, Naenhoon works great with a cleric dip for free MM on archivist spells
Changeling: Rogue Racial sub is nice. Not sure if it beats the utility and flavor from Illumian, though

Classes
Archivist base: You're right, Dark Knowledge is perfect. Also, it's like the most bookish class in the game. This would be an entire 20 levels
Cleric 1: Trade out for Devotion feats, and gives you a turn undead pool
Truenamer 3: Hidden Knowledge + Universal Aptitude = +15 to knowledge checks if you can drop the rounds for it (mostly out of combat usage). Truenamer also picks up a Knowledge boost as a class feature.
Marshal 1: Motivate Int, also some nice proficiencies
Dragonfire Adept 1: Draconic Knowledge for +6 to all Knowledges, plus access to Draconic feats. Also, fire breath weapon has some utility in it.
Factotum X: Cunning Knowledge is the best consistent boost, and Factotum is a great class anyways

Changeling Factotum is also a nice dip

Feats
Draconic Knowledge: +1 to all knowledges per draconic feat. Draconic feats are really fun imo.
Knowledge Devotion: Obviously, and already mentioned

Skill Tricks: Collector of Stories

[HaikenEdge]

ITruenamer 3: Hidden Knowledge + Universal Aptitude = +15 to knowledge checks if you can drop the rounds for it (mostly out of combat usage).

Where is Hidden Knowledge from? I can't seem to locate it in Tome of Magic or on dndtools.

[Vhaidara]

Oops, Hidden Truth, not Knowledge.

[Slipperychicken]

Classes:
Wizard (use book-larnin' to cast arcane spells off INT)
Archivist (use book-larnin' to cast divine spells off INT, plus use of book-larnin' to give bonuses to allies)
Factotum (use book-larnin' to negate death, gain skills, hit people harder, and score ludicrous skill checks. It doesn't make much sense when you think about it).

Feats:
Fairie Mysteries Initiate (Int to HP instead of Con. So smart you're tanky).
Keen Intellect (Int to Will Saves, Sense Motive, and a few skills).
Knowledge Devotion (Knowledge roll bonus to hit. So smart you hit better).

Skills:
All the knowledges
Spellcraft
Forgery
Decipher Script
Speak Language
Martial Lore
Autohypnosis

[HaikenEdge]

Kind of a side question, but if a character has max ranks in every Knowledge skill, does that character even really need Bardic Knowledge?

[Vhaidara]

It doesn't hurt to have it. Though Bardic Knowledge is highly disputed, depending on your GM.

My group runs on the basis of a Bardic Knowledge check means you roll for Google

[Slipperychicken]

Kind of a side question, but if a character has max ranks in every Knowledge skill, does that character even really need Bardic Knowledge?

It depends on how your group handles it. It overlaps with knowledge skills, so it might give a sort of "re-try" attempt when you fail a normal knowledge roll.

[Diovid]

I want to +1 the suggestion of going Bardic Sage 5 / Urban Savant 10 / Paragnostic Apostle 5 on one side.

I'll throw in the following:

Master - Base Class - Dragonlance: War of the Lance
Obscure Lore - Feat - Complete Adventurer
Trivial Knowledge - Feat - Races of Stone (it is gnome only, though a Changeling might qualify with the Racial Emulation feat)
Breadth of Knowledge - Feat - Unearthed Arcana
Master of Knowledge - Feat - Heroes of Horror
Draconic Aura - Feat - Dragon Magic (works well together with the dragonfire adept dip mentioned above)
Research - Feat - Eberron Campaign Setting
Absent Minded - Trait - Unearthed Arcana

[malonkey1]

All the Knowledge skills can be had as class skills with Education, so the Factotum's benefit of all the Knowledge skills is pretty much a wash, though the Changeling Rogue's +4 or +5 (depending on how you read it) to all Knowledge skills is pretty much worth 3 or 4 feats, so that's probably a better idea than the Rilkan rogue I was thinking of.

That said, the Factotum's skill bonuses can be great.

[HaikenEdge]

I want to +1 the suggestion of going Bardic Sage 5 / Urban Savant 10 / Paragnostic Apostle 5 on one side.

I'll throw in the following:

Master - Base Class - Dragonlance: War of the Lance
Obscure Lore - Feat - Complete Adventurer
Trivial Knowledge - Feat - Races of Stone (it is gnome only, though a Changeling might qualify with the Racial Emulation feat)
Breadth of Knowledge - Feat - Unearthed Arcana
Master of Knowledge - Feat - Heroes of Horror
Draconic Aura - Feat - Dragon Magic (works well together with the dragonfire adept dip mentioned above)
Research - Feat - Eberron Campaign Setting
Absent Minded - Trait - Unearthed Arcana

The Master class is very interesting for what I want to do with the character, and the only reasons I'm not taking it is (A) the bonus it grants to Knowledge checks is lower than the Minor Lore ability for the Changeling Rogue, and (B) the Bonus Feats list is incredibly restricted.


That said, the Factotum's skill bonuses can be great.
Can be, but they're inconsistent because they're only usable once per day per skill.

[deuxhero]

Factotum//Anything is one of the best gestalt builds. I'd go with Factotum//Archivist over Wizard because you have a class feature to get bonuses off your knowledge. As 2nd party is open, be sure to grab Academic Priest and be SAD.

If you wanted to be REALLY broken you could stick Chameleon on your Factotum side after level 8, then shuffle Extra Spell around each day to fill out your book.

[HaikenEdge]

Factotum//Anything is one of the best gestalt builds. I'd go with Factotum//Archivist over Wizard because you have a class feature to get bonuses off your knowledge. As 2nd party is open, be sure to grab Academic Priest and be SAD.

If you wanted to be REALLY broken you could stick Chameleon on your Factotum side after level 8, then shuffle Extra Spell around each day to fill out your book.

Factotum's comparative lack of skill points (6 per level vs 8 for Rogue, Scout or Master) means a minimum of 18 Intelligence is required to cover all of the normal 11 Knowledge skills (which is fine), but not being able to spend skill points in other skills (which is bad) without (A) being exalted and taking Nymph's Kiss, or (B) spending a good number of feats on Open Mind, or (C) slapping on templates to raise Int, at the expense of character level. While others have mentioned the Cunning Knowledge class feature as a bonus, it's far too inconsistent for a book-learning type character, since it's usable only once per day per skill, and usually, if a skill comes up in-game, it's going to come up more than once in that given day.

Secondly, Chameleon is really bad for a knowledgeable character; the drop to 4 skill points for level means, in order to continue maximizing all Knowledge skills, the character would need 22 Intelligence, and that is again with no other skills being invested in.

[Slipperychicken]

Can be, but they're inconsistent because they're only usable once per day per skill.

They are invaluable for skills which would normally be used once per day or less (but would not normally be worth ranks), or when you need a large bonus.

For instance, you can use it to put one rank in Forgery, Use Rope, or Decipher Script, then have a high modifier (as if you had almost full ranks in it!) in the handful of times it would be useful to identify an unknown language, fake documents, or tie up a prisoner. This can be especially useful for Craft or Profession skills which are normally not attempted more than once per day.

Similarly, a Factotum might find that he really needs to make a skill check where the consequences of failure can be catastrophic (such as stealing from an important NPC), or to attempt one which can yield him a great boon (such as using Bluff or Diplomacy to influence others to give him items, a better deal, or assistance).

It goes without saying that one could use it to get +level to each of your knowledge skills once per day. Considering the frequency of knowledge checks I've seen, that might well cover most of them. It can also be used with Knowledge Devotion to increase the bonus tohit and damage.

[HaikenEdge]

They are invaluable for skills which would normally be used once per day or less (but would not normally be worth ranks), or when you need a large bonus.

For instance, you can use it to put one rank in Forgery, Use Rope, or Decipher Script, then have a high modifier (as if you had almost full ranks in it!) in the handful of times it would be useful to identify an unknown language, fake documents, or tie up a prisoner. This can be especially useful for Craft or Profession skills which are normally not attempted more than once per day.

Similarly, a Factotum might find that he really needs to make a skill check where the consequences of failure can be catastrophic (such as stealing from an important NPC), or to attempt one which can yield him a great boon (such as using Bluff or Diplomacy to influence others to give him items, a better deal, or assistance).

It goes without saying that one could use it to get +level to each of your knowledge skills once per day. Considering the frequency of knowledge checks I've seen, that might well cover most of them. It can also be used with Knowledge Devotion to increase the bonus tohit and damage.

Regarding the bolded bit, I think that has more to do with the style of play, than anything else. When I previously played characters, particularly those who I had invested skill points into multiple Knowledge checks, I was nearly asking questions of the DM that would end up requiring Knowledge checks to answer, things ranging from, "Do I know the layout of this town" or "Do I know the quickest and safest route from point A to point B in this town?" (Knowledge [Local]), to things like, "What can you tell me about what I know about how the city's architecture was produced?" or "Is that door solid?" (Knowledge [Architecture & Engineering]). That's to say, when I have a lot of Knowledge skills, I'm constantly asking questions that require Knowledge checks, because I'm always looking for 5 or 6 different ways out of every situation, be it through exploitation of architecture, local customs, or any other number of things, so the once per day bonus isn't a consistent bonus in the sense that, I'm normally rolling a Knowledge check every 5 or so minutes, if not more often.

Regarding everything else, that might hold true, but without the proper skill points to invest in those skills, Cunning Knowledge is pointless because it won't function on skills in which there are no skill points, ie, every skill other than a Knowledge skill.

[Diovid]

The Master class is very interesting for what I want to do with the character, and the only reasons I'm not taking it is (A) the bonus it grants to Knowledge checks is lower than the Minor Lore ability for the Changeling Rogue, and (B) the Bonus Feats list is incredibly restricted.
Getting high bonuses is great but you also want something useful to do with those bonuses. Master knacks are such a thing. Besides you can always take Skill Focus multiple times as your bonus feats.


Thinking about it, I would probably go with either of the following:

Gnome* Archivist 20 // Master 10 / Dragonfire Adept or Marshal 1 / Master +9

Gnome* Wizard 11 / Urban Savant 9 // Master 10 / Dragonfire Adept or Marshal 1 / Master +9

*There are gnome subraces with an int bonus, specifically the Arcane Gnome (DM #291) and the Tinker Gnome (Dragonlance Campaign Setting).

Too bad Archivist spellcasting isn't progressed by Urban Savant, otherwise Gnome Archivist 11 / Urban Savant 9 // Master 10 / Dragonfire Adept or Marshal 1 / Master +9 would be the way to go.

[HaikenEdge]

Getting high bonuses is great but you also want something useful to do with those bonuses. Master knacks are such a thing. Besides you can always take Skill Focus multiple times as your bonus feats.

This would be true if all of Master knacks for the Sage focus used Knowledge checks in multiple meaningful ways; however, the only Master knack that actually uses Knowledge in such a way is Tactical Advantage, while the rest are either Intelligence checks (Exploit Weakness and Linguist), do things with Knowledge that isn't helpful because I will already have all my Knowledge skills maxed (Complementary Scholarship), or use the class level rather than Knowledge as a bonus (Academic Reputation and Lore).

Frankly, the Master is significantly better for a the Craftman, Performer and Professional focuses; the Sage focus simply gets the short end of the stick. In that sense, a Master is a perfect class to gestalt with an crafting-focused Artificer or a social Rogue, but not necessarily the knowledgeable character.

[Chronos]

Any character that fits this archetype, you're going to want to be maxing out Int anyway. So I think that a base of 6 skill points per level is probably going to be enough. And while Factotum doesn't give you ways to use a Knowledge check per se, it does have tons of ways to use book-learning for just about everything. Certainly it'd be more useful to the character than rogue or scout, whose only advantage would be the extra two skill points. I suppose you might eventually go Exemplar on that side, though (but that doesn't come online until level 10).

Your other side pretty much has to be Archivist. And there are a number of classes that would be useful for a dip (Marshal with Motivate Intelligence, Dragonfire Adept for the draconic knowledge invocation, Truenamer for the two knowledge-boosting utterances and a Knowledge Focus), but they can't fit in on either side: Putting them on the factotum side means a big hit to your skill points, and putting them on the archivist side means losing casting progression and Dark Knowledge.

On the other hand, though... There's nothing special about skill ranks. A skill rank is just +1 to the skill, the same as any other +1. If you can get a dip that adds more than that to all of them, it's worth it even if it had no skill points at all.

And nobody else has mentioned the psionic power Call to Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/calltoMind.htm). It lets you re-roll a check, and gives you a (probably redundant) boost to it as well. You could pick it up either through a one-level dip, or via the Hidden Talent feat if your DM allows that. Not really useful in combat, due to the long manifesting time, but could be good out of combat. I'd recommend if you fail a check to use your Cunning Knowledge and whatever skill-boosting spells you have (Divine Insight, Guidance of the Avatar), and then using Call to Mind just to be allowed to retry.

[HaikenEdge]

As I've mentioned earlier, there are 10 Knowledge skills, and even if you max your Intelligence at 1st level, unless you're going with some sort of LA race or template, you're going to only be able to need 18 Intelligence with a base 6 skill point class just to max all those Knowledge skills, and as far as I know, the maximum you can get with a +0 LA race is 20 Intelligence, meaning, aside from all 10 Knowledge skills (11 if you count Psionics, but I'm not for this example), you'll only be able to invest skill points in one other skill, most likely something like Concentration. If you take Nymph's Kiss, you can get 2 skills on top of all the Knowledge skills.

My problem is less the Factotum's class abilities, and just that, by taking the class, the character becomes far too short on skill points to do anything except to perform Dark Knowledge checks. Sure, you could spend each level putting those one or two skill points into a different skill, so you can Cunning Knowledge them, but that makes you only barely competent once per day, when, with a lot of skills (Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently), you'll need them a lot when you need them.

That's to say, a base of 6 skill points per level, the character is basically, "I read a lot of books." With a base of 8 skill points per level, the character can say, "I read a lot of books, I've studied cryptography and other strange languages (decipher script), I've studied how to recognize magic on sight (spellcraft), meditation (concentration), and copying documents that look very real (forgery)."

[HaikenEdge]

And 13 if you count Spellcraft, or 14 if you count Psicraft.

Point was (and still is) 6 base skill points does not nearly cover the range of skills that would make a character work thematically as a "knowledgeable" character.

[Chronos]

But 8 isn't all that much more than 6. And while you're going to be making some checks often, others you won't. How often will you need to roll Dungeoneering, say, or Architecture and Engineering, or Decipher Script? I'd expect each of those to be once per day, max, in which case you can do just as well with Cunning Knowledge as with skill ranks. A factotum can consistently make more rolls at a higher total bonus than a rogue or scout can.

[Vhaidara]

And 13 if you count Spellcraft, or 14 if you count Psicraft.

Point was (and still is) 6 base skill points does not nearly cover the range of skills that would make a character work thematically as a "knowledgeable" character.

The thing is that, if you want to keep 13/14 skills maxed, even a rogue needs an Int of +5/+6.

At early levels, you kind of have to accept that you aren't going to have them all maxed. However, as you level, you Int will go up.

Additionally, the Factotum's other abilities give you something beyond making Knowledge checks, while still providing enough (you start with 18 Int, can keep all but 1 knowledge maxed and still max spellcraft) to hold you over until you higher Int lets you start filling in the last knowledge (I recommend nobility, probably one of the least likely to come up).

As far as dips, they may lose you skill points, but look at them this way
DFA: +6 to all knowledges from 1 level. You lose 4 skill points, and gain +60 to skills. Net gain of +56
Marshal: Cha to Int based skills. +3 Cha nets you a massive net increase in bonuses
Truenamer: Ability to set up for a +15 knowledge check. This is you in research mode. Also gives a +3 to one knowledge that stacks with Skill Focus.

[HaikenEdge]

But 8 isn't all that much more than 6. And while you're going to be making some checks often, others you won't. How often will you need to roll Dungeoneering, say, or Architecture and Engineering, or Decipher Script? I'd expect each of those to be once per day, max, in which case you can do just as well with Cunning Knowledge as with skill ranks. A factotum can consistently make more rolls at a higher total bonus than a rogue or scout can.

I use all of them quite often, because I don't use them passively; for example, I don't wait for the DM to ask me to make a Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) check, I ask the DM if I know, from the type of building I'm in, what all the structural weaknesses are, or whether I know how to build something mechanical that, and I don't wait to face aberrations to use Knowledge (Dungeoneering), I use Knowledge (Dungeoneering) in-character to see what I know about equipping myself for underground travel, likely layouts of a dungeon given what I've already seen, etc.

That's to say, when I have the Knowledge skills, I hate waiting for the DM to tell me to roll for a check; I'm constantly actively looking for ways to apply my character's knowledge to expand my in-character knowledge of the world and situation the character is currently in.

[Judge_Worm]

Savant (http://dndtools.eu/classes/savant/) from dragon compendium might be up your alley.

[Chronos]

OK, so let's say that you want Appraise, Concentration, Decipher Script, Forgery, Spellcraft, and all 10 Knowledges. That's 15 skills, so even if you're a grey elf rogue with 20 Int, you can't hit them all. Already we need to compromise. So let's say that we drop Appraise entirely, and put Forgery on hold for a little while. And let's also assume that you're going to be a middle-aged Grey Elf, you're going to start with a base of 18 Int and 15 Cha (so a total of 21 and 16), and you're going to spring for the two points for Collector of Stories. Now let's compare the two builds at, say, level 10 (we'll assume a +4 headband of Int).

The rogue//archivist will be able to max out 13 skills for the first three levels, and 14 for the next seven (thanks to the level-up point at 4th). So that's going to be, let's say, +21 to all Knowledges (13 ranks, 8 Int), or +26 for monster vulnerabilities, +21 Spellcraft, +21 Decipher Script, +13+Con Concentration, and +13 Forgery (5 ranks, 8 Int).

By comparison, let's consider a build with all Archivist on one side, and on the other, seven levels of Factotum, and one each of Dragonfire Adept, Marshal, and (just for the heck of it) Cloistered Cleric. This gives us a total of 146 skill points. We'll put 1 each into Knowledge (Architecture, Dungeoneering, Geography, and Nobility), and 13 each into each of the other Knowledges, Decipher Script, Spellcraft, Forgery, and Concentration, which leaves us 2 for Collector of Stories and 10 for Appraise. That's going to give us +18 to our lesser Knowledges (1 rank, 6 draconic, 3 marshal, 8 Int), +30 to our other Knowledges and Spellcraft (13 ranks, 6 draconic, 3 marshal, 8 Int), +24 Decipher Script and Forgery (13 ranks, 3 marshal, 8 Int), +13+Con Concentration, and +21 Appraise (10 ranks, 3 marshal, 8 Int). So at a cost of -3 to our four least-used Knowledges, we gain +9 to our other Knowledges and Spellcraft, +11 to Forgery, and +13 to Appraise. And we can still gain an additional +7 to each of those skills once per day.

Or maybe you don't want to accept any decrease to any skill at all. In that case, assign 4 points each into Architecture, Dungeoneering, Geography, and Nobility, 12 each into the other Knowledges and Spellcraft, 13 each into Decipher Script, Forgery, and Concentration, and 5 ranks into Appraise. Now the build matches the rogue build on the four lesser Knowledges and on Concentration, has +8 more than the rogue on the other knowledges and Spellcraft, +3 more on Decipher Script, +11 more Forgery, and +8 more Appraise. This is strictly better than what you can get from rogue.