Interesting Uses of Metamagic

[DeAnno]

I've been going through the 5e PHB and looking at Sorcerers with an eye to getting to most out of the metamagic feature, which seems like it has the potential to be very strong. I've noticed a few things so far:

Distant Spell: This acting as "reach spell" for touch spells is interesting, and highlights the cantrip Shocking Grasp especially, both for being very accurate and having the excellent property of nullifying reactions. Also, this seems really useful in a mage duel if you keep inside distant Counterspell range and outside non-distant Counterspell range (so between 65-120 feet.)

Repeated Action Spells: One serious weakness of the otherwise great Quicken Spell metamagic is that you can only cast cantrips on the same round as Quickened Spells. A way around this is to cast a repeated action spell like Telekinesis, Sunbeam, or Eyebite and use that as your action each turn while casting a "real" quickened spell in addition to that. For example, a Sorcerer might open a combat by casting Heightened Sunbeam, and then on the next round attack with both his Heightened Sunbeam again and a Quickened Disintegrate.

Twinned Buffs: This already seems to be well known, but one way around the limiting mechanic of Concentration duration buff spells is to cast them twinned, and get twice the punch for only one character's worth of concentration. This is especially useful with Polymorph and (Greater) Invisibility.

Does anyone have any other interesting ideas, or other Spells on the Sorcerer list that work well with these tactics?

[JamesT]

Twinned Haste is just amazing.

[akaddk]

You can't twin Haste.

[JamesT]

You can't twin Haste.

I'm not sure if you're just trolling at this point, but sure you can.

[Beige]

You can't twin Haste.

haste is a single target spell - it can be twinned

[akaddk]

I'm not sure if you're just trolling at this point, but sure you can.

My apologies, you are correct. I had thought I'd read the description only a few days ago that said you could use higher level spell slots to target more people. I was mistaken.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Found one that's definitely interesting...

Ingredients: 7th lvl Wizard magic, 3 or more levels in Sorc,
Cast: Plane Shift+Distant Spell
Effect: Roll to hit, Cha save to send to another plane.

Two rolls to mission kill anything. DM that learns to put Legendary Resistance on more things. They didn't intend this one for sure.

(Plane Shift not being on the Sorc class list btw)

[Symphony]

Found one that's definitely interesting...

Ingredients: 7th lvl Wizard magic, 3 or more levels in Sorc,
Cast: Plane Shift+Distant Spell
Effect: Roll to hit, Cha save to send to another plane.

Two rolls to mission kill anything. DM that learns to put Legendary Resistance on more things. They didn't intend this one for sure.

(Plane Shift not being on the Sorc class list btw)

It actually is on the Sorcerer spell list.

[akaddk]

Found one that's definitely interesting...

Ingredients: 7th lvl Wizard magic, 3 or more levels in Sorc,
Cast: Plane Shift+Distant Spell
Effect: Roll to hit, Cha save to send to another plane.

Two rolls to mission kill anything. DM that learns to put Legendary Resistance on more things. They didn't intend this one for sure.

(Plane Shift not being on the Sorc class list btw)

I don't see why that's special. All you're doing is making it a ranged attack instead of a melee attack. Big whoopy.

[Soras Teva Gee]

It actually is on the Sorcerer spell list.

Damn it I misread.


I don't see why that's special. All you're doing is making it a ranged attack instead of a melee attack. Big whoopy.

Simple because when it fails the big dumb fighting thing I'd use it on because how's that ever going to get back... doesn't bite my head off when I fail. Also I'm not aware of any immunities to being transported unlike say Flesh to Stone

Its nice but just nice. Only one time a day in practical terms prevents real serious use.

[DeAnno]

On Plane Shift, there are actually a couple other good options rather than Distant. True Strike + Quickened Plane Shift gives you advantage on the melee attack roll, and Heightened Plane Shift gives the enemy disadvantage on the Charisma save.

In a similar vein, Banishment is an excellent spell for a Sorcerer (note that it scales to multiple targets at higher levels!) and also responds really well to Heighten. There aren't many reliable save-or-suck spells any more to take advantage of with Heighten and even fewer on the Sorc list, but that's definitely a good one.

[Soras Teva Gee]

In a similar vein, Banishment is an excellent spell for a Sorcerer (note that it scales to multiple targets at higher levels!) and also responds really well to Heighten. There aren't many reliable save-or-suck spells any more to take advantage of with Heighten and even fewer on the Sorc list, but that's definitely a good one.

Banishment is great but does only delays the fight. Useful certainly since divide and conquer is often a great tactic but there goes your Con spell for the fight.

For me I always think there's never quite a substitute for getting your enemies actually closer to death. Though that is just a preference for me.

[DeAnno]

For me I always think there's never quite a substitute for getting your enemies actually closer to death. Though that is just a preference for me.

Traditionally, I agree, but that seems like it could be hard in this edition. First, just look at hp totals, where a lot of factors are conspiring. The "Low" HD is d6 now, "average" rolls are rounded up, and the Tough feat gives +2 hp/HD. Add that all up and a 14 Con Wizard with Tough is at 162 hp at 20th level, which is a big pill to swallow considering what seem to be the practical bounds on blasting right now. Add in that Polymorph effects seem to operate under separate bundles of HP and lots of healing effects restore all HP, and pure blasting is in a much stickier place than it was even back in the halcyon days of 3.5e.

Of course, maybe monster HP won't scale that fast, and the Legendary ability most bosses seem to have to shrug off saves is very relevant too, but I think examining all the available options is probably wise at this stage, even if extending a battle with Banishment divide-and-conquer seems a bit unpalatable from a resources standpoint.

[ambartanen]

Feeblemind is a pretty good spell to take anyone out of a fight permanently, especially a caster. A heighetened one gives most characters under 5% chance of saving, druids and rogues get about a 20% chance and even proficient enemies with 20 int only get less than an even one (42.25%).


Of course, maybe monster HP won't scale that fast, and the Legendary ability most bosses seem to have to shrug off saves is very relevant too...

Maybe this isn't the best place to discuss this but the legendary saves seem a bit strange to me. It just seems unavoidable that they would lead to this consideration about what spells to hit the BBEG with at what times (dangerous but not the most dangerous until his defenses are exhausted) which normally wouldn't bother me so much except except this power has no representation in the game world so it's pure metagaming.

[hymer]

I guess you can come up with representation for it, say a sort of mental hp or the equivalent of bullet resistant glass. The boss can resist almost anything in the first go, and then gets worn down until s/he must rely on saves like anyone else. Not unlike a monk running out of ki for patient defence, or a fighter running out of superiority dice for parry, it's just with saving throws instead of AC.

OT: I'd be mighty tempted to twin Stoneskin. It's a great buff for just about any non-barbarian, it only takes the one concentration, and it only costs one use of the 100gp material component. The usefulness of the last bit depends a lot on how much money is in the campaign, but it seems 100gp is going to be felt, so making the most of it may be a considerable deal.
I don't know how viable a multiclass sorcerer is, but there could be some spells with high costs that might be mitigated in a similar fashion.

[Beige]

to paraphrase the explanation of a legendary creature (and thus the kind to have legendary actions/saves/lair): A legendary creature is a special and unique monster that can do things no others can't. to represent their sheer strength, strength of will, or the hand of fate guiding them, they have legendary actions

it's just legendary defence is the most common so far. we also have legendary lair actions (the red dragon can make his volcano home erupt through sheer force of will :smallbiggrin:) and regular legendary actions, and I'm sure we'll see more types

as for explenations on what it is, it varies between characters; for a bbeg warrior, it could be training or a natural resistance to spells, for the dragon it's the fact its a freaking dragon (and I'd assume it harder to turn a giant dragon into a statue than a dude)

[Soras Teva Gee]

Traditionally, I agree, but that seems like it could be hard in this edition. First, just look at hp totals, where a lot of factors are conspiring. The "Low" HD is d6 now, "average" rolls are rounded up, and the Tough feat gives +2 hp/HD. Add that all up and a 14 Con Wizard with Tough is at 162 hp at 20th level, which is a big pill to swallow considering what seem to be the practical bounds on blasting right now. Add in that Polymorph effects seem to operate under separate bundles of HP and lots of healing effects restore all HP, and pure blasting is in a much stickier place than it was even back in the halcyon days of 3.5e.

Of course, maybe monster HP won't scale that fast, and the Legendary ability most bosses seem to have to shrug off saves is very relevant too, but I think examining all the available options is probably wise at this stage, even if extending a battle with Banishment divide-and-conquer seems a bit unpalatable from a resources standpoint.

Well for your consideration keep in mind that Meteor Swarms dishes out 20d6 fire / 20d6 blunt or an average of 140 damage, save half. That's a pretty serious chance of dying outright for 162 HP and 40 of that coming from an optional feature with a heck of a booby prize, especially if more practically we take a couple of levels off down to level 17. For single targets somethings like Scorching Ray scale remarkably well though involves a lot of attack rolls.

Now they just got to add some elemental substitution somewhere for fighting red dragons with a fire biased spell list.

[DeAnno]

The opportunity cost of a Sorcerer knowing 9ths other than Wish seems really high. Meteor Swarm is a good nuke, but outside of that a lot of the available DPS at high levels is uninspiring.


Feeblemind is a pretty good spell to take anyone out of a fight permanently, especially a caster. A heighetened one gives most characters under 5% chance of saving, druids and rogues get about a 20% chance and even proficient enemies with 20 int only get less than an even one (42.25%).

Unfortunately Feeblemind isn't on the Sorc list, which gets rather depressing for 7th-8th level.

[pwykersotz]

The opportunity cost of a Sorcerer knowing 9ths other than Wish seems really high. Meteor Swarm is a good nuke, but outside of that a lot of the available DPS at high levels is uninspiring.



Unfortunately Feeblemind isn't on the Sorc list, which gets rather depressing for 7th-8th level.

Eh...what with the 1/3 chance of losing the spell permanently if you use it for anything other than spell duplication, I'm not certain it's that great. Definitely up there, but no longer undeniably the best. Probably always better than Meteor Swarm though.

[Soras Teva Gee]

To say nothing of 1d10 necro every time you cast if it doesn't work and being an invalid for 2d4 days.

I'll live without it thanks.

[DeAnno]

Spell duplication doesn't have any of those problems, and with Sorcerers limited to such a small list of Known spells, not to mention some holes on their list in general, I think its sort of a no brainer to have a Wildcard available every day. Gate is ultra expensive and not what it used to be, PWK has a lot of the same issues as before except worse with higher HP, and Time Stop is much more limited with Concentration being a factor for buffs. Meteor Swarm on the other hand is an excellent nuke in all respects, but considering you only get one ninth slot per day and only 15 known leveled spells, it's a steep opportunity cost to learn both Meteor Swarm and Wish.

[Symphony]

Eh...what with the 1/3 chance of losing the spell permanently if you use it for anything other than spell duplication, I'm not certain it's that great. Definitely up there, but no longer undeniably the best. Probably always better than Meteor Swarm though.

Actually, it's the spell duplication that makes it great. If I remember the wording correctly, you can replicate any spell 8th level or lower. That gives a Sorcerer incredible flexibility that their 15 spells from a limited list + 6 cantrips almost desperately needs.

[pwykersotz]

Actually, it's the spell duplication that makes it great. If I remember the wording correctly, you can replicate any spell 8th level or lower. That gives a Sorcerer incredible flexibility that their 15 spells from a limited list + 6 cantrips almost desperately needs.

Agreed, definitely a great choice. Granted it's 1/day, using your highest level slot...but it's still fantastic. I think I'd still lean toward Time Stop myself though.

[hawklost]

Agreed, definitely a great choice. Granted it's 1/day, using your highest level slot...but it's still fantastic. I think I'd still lean toward Time Stop myself though.

Why not know both? What is stopping the Sorceror from changing out one of his lower level known spells for Time Stop so that he could have both Wish and Time Stop depending?

I know he loses some versatility because of it, but other than that, there shouldn't be any mechanic stopping him from getting 2 lvl 9 spells known.

[Symphony]

Why not know both? What is stopping the Sorceror from changing out one of his lower level known spells for Time Stop so that he could have both Wish and Time Stop depending?

I know he loses some versatility because of it, but other than that, there shouldn't be any mechanic stopping him from getting 2 lvl 9 spells known.

There is no mechanic stopping him, sure. He can even get three level 9 spells. Only one of which he can cast on any given day, but if your other 12 spells (not even 2 per level) are enough low-level variety for him, I guess that's fine.