Tome of Battle and Real World Martial Arts

[Cardea]

Oddball question, and I hope this is the right place to ask.

Taking into account only the first nine disciplines presented in the Tome of Battle, what real world fighting styles or martial arts do you think would demonstrate each discipline accurately?

Karate for Shadow Hand? Kendo for Diamond Mind? I'd like to hear your opinion.

[heavyfuel]

Jujutsu for Setting Sun.

Also, I don't see how the (Su) schools of Shadow Hand and Desert Wind can have a real world counterpart

[Phelix-Mu]

Without ignoring a fair bit of most of the disciplines, there are many incongruities with real life (obviously). But aikido or the like are probably the closest match to Setting Sun, which is among the least fantastical (ignoring the throw distances, ofc) of the disciplines.

I'd probably aim for iaijutsu for Diamond Mind. Clarity, concentration, and efficiency of motion, dealing single, big damage strikes.

Maybe something like eskrima for Tiger Claw. Something that focuses on speed and fighting with two weapons.

[Cardea]

Jujutsu for Setting Sun.

Also, I don't see how the (Su) schools of Shadow Hand and Desert Wind can have a real world counterpart
Aside from blinding your opponent and setting your fists on fire? Imagination and what seems like it might fit, really. Same for the others.

[Prime32]

I'd say trying to match each martial art with a single discipline is a mistake - every initiator gets access to multiple disciplines after all. Judo, for instance, could benefit from stance of alacrity and thicket of blades on top of Setting Sun throws. Some maneuvers are so generic that they could match up with forms from dozens of different martial arts.

I'd say Jeet Kune Do would be mostly Iron Heart and Stone Dragon, running on a crusader recovery mechanic. Maybe with some White Raven maneuvers like covering strike.

[Dorian Gray]

Western martial arts look like a combination of Diamond Mind and Iron Heart, with lighter fencing blades emphasizing DM and longsword fencing focusing more on IH. Boxing corresponds fairly well to Stone Dragon with some Iron Heart added.

Honestly, Iron Heart is the table salt of Tome of Battle. There is practically nothing that isn't made better by a pinch or two of it.

[Cardea]

Without ignoring a fair bit of most of the disciplines, there are many incongruities with real life (obviously). But aikido or the like are probably the closest match to Setting Sun, which is among the least fantastical (ignoring the throw distances, ofc) of the disciplines.

I'd probably aim for iaijutsu for Diamond Mind. Clarity, concentration, and efficiency of motion, dealing single, big damage strikes.

Maybe something like eskrima for Tiger Claw. Something that focuses on speed and fighting with two weapons.
Had to google up eskrima, admittedly, but all this seems spot on with what I was looking for. Thanks. I was actually looking at Muay Thai for Tiger Claw originally.

I'd say trying to match each martial art with a single discipline is a mistake - every initiator gets access to multiple disciplines after all. Judo, for instance, could benefit from stance of alacrity and thicket of blades on top of Setting Sun throws. Some maneuvers are so generic that they could match up with forms from dozens of different martial arts.

I'd say Jeet Kune Do would be mostly Iron Heart and Stone Dragon, running on a crusader recovery mechanic. Maybe with some White Raven maneuvers like covering strike.
Bruce Lee pulled Jeet Kune Do from multiple disciplines. Me trying to attribute a single martial art to a discipline, and then you saying that JKD can be pulled from Iron Heart and Stone Dragon, just kinda... fits. “Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it.”, y'know?

Western martial arts look like a combination of Diamond Mind and Iron Heart, with lighter fencing blades emphasizing DM and longsword fencing focusing more on IH. Boxing corresponds fairly well to Stone Dragon with some Iron Heart added.

Honestly, Iron Heart is the table salt of Tome of Battle. There is practically nothing that isn't made better by a pinch or two of it.
With Iron Heart I was thinking of some of the heavier blade styles found in western fighting styles; same with Devoted Spirit and White Raven. Been looking up different methods of fighting used by Europe and, more specifically, the crusades. I was actually looking at Hung Gar for Stone Dragon.

[Beowulf DW]

Diamond Mind=Tai Chi/Iaijutsu
Setting Sun=Aikido
Tiger Claw=Eskrima
Iron Heart=Jigen-Ryu (Emphasis on hitting really hard)
Shadow Hand=Ninjutsu if you ignore the magic
Devoted Spirit=Knights of Europe, I suppose?
White Raven= Roman styles of combat which emphasized fighting as part of a unit
Desert Hand= Arabian fencing styles, if you ignore the fire
Stone Dragon= I know that there are several martial arts that focus on strong stances and powerful attacks without anything flashy, but I can't think of any at the moment.

[Esprit15]

Stone Dragon= I know that there are several martial arts that focus on strong stances and powerful attacks without anything flashy, but I can't think of any at the moment.
Krav Maga, perhaps?

[Greenish]

Devoted Spirit=Knights of Europe, I suppose?Oh yeah, that single, specific martial art.

[Averis Vol]

I was thinking judo for stone dragon, Niten-ryū for tiger claw and olympic wrestling for setting sun. there's too many fencing schools for diamond mind. The other schools are all a bit too extraordinary to link to a martial art, I guess ninjutsu would be the best to emulate shadow hand, not sure what do with the others.

[Drelua]

One of my friends is really into martial arts, having taken Tae Kwan Do for years before switching to Muay Thai with a bit of boxing on the side for a few more years, then switching to more generic self defence. He told me he learned a move in his self defence classes called the Tiger Claw. It's basically an open handed uppercut, with advanced use having you shove your fingers in the person's eyes. The spirit of the thing was pretty well summed up with the phrase "keep calm my [butt], break his face." I'm paraphrasing of course, but you get the idea. This actually sounds a lot like the Tiger Claw discipline, so I'd say modern self defence could work for that.

Anyway, I just thought it was funny that my friend knows a move that shares a name with one of my favourite ToB disciplines.

[Beowulf DW]

Oh yeah, that single, specific martial art.

Well, if you know of a name for any particular system of training of the various knightly orders, feel free to let me know. I'll be waiting riiiiiiight here.

[Greenish]

Well, if you know of a name for any particular system of training of the various knightly orders, feel free to let me know. I'll be waiting riiiiiiight here.The swordguy who frequents my local con is all about "Fior di Battaglia", the Flower of Battle, which, the best I can tell sounds kinda like Iron Heart (except with more focus on your attack also preventing the enemy from smacking you). There's the German School, "Kunst des Fechtens", which seems to be mostly stuff that some Liechtenauer maybe did. Dunno what they're about but "mordhau" sounds vaguely Tiger Claw-ish (it's not just, or even primarily, a TWF discipline, after all).

As far as I can tell, most of 'em aren't about shields or healing people.

[Snowbluff]

Mordhau is more of a Stone Dragon technique, if you ask me. It's where you hold your sword by the blade and use the pommel like the head of a mace.

[Nousos]

Setting Sun is overwhelmingly Judo with a few tricks added, being that modern Judo is 90% throws. I suppose it could also work for Aikido or Glima, as all three of them focus on using leverage and momentum to throw an opponent.

Devoted Spirit just seems to be mostly for the archetype of a champion of the people type paladin. I can't see it being attributed to a real art, but maybe inspired by dragon slaying knight stories and the like.

Shotokan Karate or one of the hard fist styles of north china could be used as Stone Dragon.

In practice Krav maga works like Jeet Kune Do, so I don't think it could be emulated by just one style.

Edit- Maybe Apache knife fighting or a similar African style for Tiger Claw.

[WhamBamSam]

Taekwondo (at least the Olympic style) is very Tiger Claw with splashes of a few other disciplines like Diamond Mind and Iron Heart.

[Averis Vol]

The swordguy who frequents my local con is all about "Fior di Battaglia", the Flower of Battle, which, the best I can tell sounds kinda like Iron Heart (except with more focus on your attack also preventing the enemy from smacking you). There's the German School, "Kunst des Fechtens", which seems to be mostly stuff that some Liechtenauer maybe did. Dunno what they're about but "mordhau" sounds vaguely Tiger Claw-ish (it's not just, or even primarily, a TWF discipline, after all).

As far as I can tell, most of 'em aren't about shields or healing people.

The flower of battle is a book by fiore dei liberi. He was a an italian swordsmaster, and more over a knight, so many of the works in his book had to do with mounted combat, and it wasn't all together a style of perpetual enduring. At least, thats not what I saw it as. For a better explanation, Matt easton of Schola Gladiatoria on youtube is a student of Fiore, his videos might give a better description than I can.

[Beowulf DW]

Mordhau is more of a Stone Dragon technique, if you ask me. It's where you hold your sword by the blade and use the pommel like the head of a mace.

I love that move. It's like "Oh, using the wrong end, am I?"

[StreamOfTheSky]

Diamond Mind=Tai Chi/Iaijutsu
Setting Sun=Aikido
Tiger Claw=Eskrima
Shadow Hand=Ninjutsu if you ignore the magic
Desert Wind= Arabian fencing styles, if you ignore the fire.

Agreed with those.

Iron Heart = Krav Maga (no frills; do whatever works to disarm or kill the enemy fastest, aggressively counter/block, and strikes to fight off multiple foes)
Setting Sun = Judo, to me. Aikido also fits, but I think Judo best fits.
Stone Dragon = Iron Body Karate (http://www.hulu.com/watch/207415), no question (skip to about 20:30 in and watch till about 28:00 ....sorry, couldn't find a better source)
Devoted Spirit and White Raven really aren't going to fit any particular real world martial art.

[Cardea]

So if I get this right...
Desert Wind: Arabian/Turkish Swordplay
Devoted Spirit: Knights of Europe Swordplay
Diamond Mind: Iaijutsu, Tai Chi
Iron Heart: Jigen-Ryu, Fior di Battaglia, Krav Maga
Setting Sun: Jujutsu, Aikido, Olympic Wrestling, Judo
Shadow Hand: Ninjutsu
Stone Dragon: Mordhau, Shotokan Karate (Look up hard fist styles in North China), Iron Body Karate
Tiger Claw: Eskrima, Niten-ryū, Tae Kwan Do (Holy what, Drelua), Apache knife fighting
White Raven: Roman army tactics

Anyone else have anything to add? If not, I'm going to get working on what this is for.

Edit: Wow.

[razorback]

I think this discussion is going in the wrong direction.
It would make more sense to say, to me, "What disciplines, combined, would emulate real world martial arts?".

I think the way each initiator class can pick from multiple disciplines allows one to better emulate, in fantastical terms, real world martial arts.

For the record, I study a version of Hapkido that, to me, is best described as primarily Setting Sun with smatterings of Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Edit: Wow.

:smallbiggrin:

I loved Human Weapon. That wasn't even one of the better episodes, but I loved the iron body training part, that guy's amazing.

[Cardea]

I think this discussion is going in the wrong direction.
It would make more sense to say, to me, "What disciplines, combined, would emulate real world martial arts?".

I think the way each initiator class can pick from multiple disciplines allows one to better emulate, in fantastical terms, real world martial arts.

For the record, I study a version of Hapkido that, to me, is best described as primarily Setting Sun with smatterings of Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw.
Right, but that gets too complicated very, very fast.

I study Ba Gua primarily, and I could say its Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun and Tiger Claw mixed up, but in what I'm looking for, I'd simply say it is Setting Sun.

:smallbiggrin:

I loved Human Weapon. That wasn't even one of the better episodes, but I loved the iron body training part, that guy's amazing.
Indeed. This really helps. Thanks for the video link.

[Nousos]

I like Human Weapon, and the linked episode was nice, but I found the Krav Maga episode to be pretty disappointing. They captured the essence of Krav Maga well, and how it is meant to be used in practical, modern situations, but most of the techinques they showed were bad. They were mainly things that a few of the masters toyed around with in the 80's as introductory techniques, and are only showed today every now and then (along with an explanation of what works better) to give students a full understanding of the system and how it is constantly evolving. (Every time my sensei comes back from Israel he has a new version of an old technique) They did show Very well how the training works though.

That being said, if it had to be portrayed by ONLY one discipline, Iron Heart would work the best.

That iron body training in the video is used by many styles of karate and kung fu, most of which I wouldn't classify as "tough styles". it's just something anyone wanting to make martial arts their lifestyle should do to toughen their body, and it became part of the culture of the oriental arts to train in such a way at some point in a martial artist's life. It's the same sort of thing as western boxers and wrestlers using weight training to gain an advantage.

Hell, in Judo training we used to stand in horse stance a foot apart and take turns dealing full force blows. Only rules were no strikes to the groin and no punches the the head. (yes that means kicks to the head were allowed)