A blanket debuff????

[Starchild7309]

Ok so I am running a campaign and its my first campaign and the players are up to 13th-14th lvl. Its a premade campaign and I get the feeling at least one of them is reading ahead in the story...he seems to know what places to avoid, most of the time. I have been playing 3.5 for years now and with time constraints the best I can do is throw little curve balls into the storyline that are my own creations. I have let their power level get away from me currently, along with said player, they seem to be breezing through much of the content. In fact the only thing they have had challenges with are the curveballs I have thrown in.

The party consists of
14th lvl warforged fighter
14th level Cleric/Paladin of Tyranny
13th lvl Beguiler
13th lvl Fighter/Warhulk (npc)

All of them with the exception of the warforged have amazing will saves. 13 and much higher. I am looking for some sort of blanket debuff, thats difficult to get rid of. Not just a hand wave debuff but something inside the rules of the game. I looked all over, but can't really find anything. The party is evil/neutral, and 3/4 of the party has immunity from posion, so I turn to you all to see if there is some obscure way to debuff them that I can't think of. Something that a simple break enchantment won't solve. If you got anything I would be happy to hear.

I have considered evening out the power level by destroying some of their gear, but tend to shy away from that since the last time that happened some players got every upset and took it personal. If I have to I will, but would prefer some other option.

[bjoern]

Throw 4- level 14 optimized wizards at them. Just waylay them with save or suck spells targeting all saves. Use celerity, and action economy shenanigans to smother them in BFC and debuffs. Then when they're subdued, strip their gear, chain em up and make them escape and adventure to get their gear back from the 4 mischievous wizards. With 4 casters with 7th level spells, you should have no trouble wiping the floor with your PCs without killing them.

[kenjigoku]

For everyone except the Warforged Enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm) works well. Make your BBEG a Wizard that can Maximize, Empower, and Twin Ray Enervation and you should be set. Possibly use a Quickened True Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueStrike.htm) to help you land it.

As for the Warforged.... I have no plans currently. A high save Warforged is tough to kill outside of HP loss.

The major problem is that the WBL problem is not taken care of, unless they take some permanent level loss and you leave them alive and you take their stuff. Mage's Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm) does the job it is not a recommended method of reducing power.
EDIT:

Upon making some calculations I would recommend an Overpowered encounter. One where you should be able to wipe the floor with them. Given an APL of 13.5, I would send an encounter with EL 19 at them.

This means that you can reliably throw at them 1 CR 17 creature (our uber wizard) and 2 CR 15 creatures (probably a Cleric and a Sorcerer both with counter spell focus to prevent the Enervation from being healed off).

When I get home I will try to post a complete build of this group.

[Starchild7309]

OK cool thanks for the ideas so far.

[Curbstomp]

I suggest hitting them with the Red Widow (MM2 or 5 I think under sample vampires) played to full effectiveness. Utilizing Ninja and Vampiric abilities she should be able to mop the floor with them. Especially if you throw some contingent spells on her like Greater Harm if she gets injured or Revive Undead if she gets dropped. She can do Level/CON drain or simply turn them into vampires that have to obey her every whim. The warforged is more problematic but you might simply bury him under a swarm of her existing thralls in a fight. Mostly being vampires would give your party weaknesses that you could exploit in later adventures and simply the threat of it presented in the above encounter should be fun for them even if they win. It would be pretty unexpected and require minimal planning on your part. The Red Widow may want them as thralls b/c they are high level PC's that she has heard of. Literally victims as a result of their own success.

[jiriku]

Think low-tech.


Natural nonmagical fog imposes a 20% miss chance and reduces sight ranges. If enemies have Blind-Fight or rely on abilities that don't require attack rolls, they'll be affected only minimally.
Darkness, either magical or natural, imposes a 20% miss chance which can be ignored with darkvision or the ebon eyes spell. Turn out the lights.
Natural nonmagical rubble, undergrowth, sand, or mud impose a doubled movement cost and prevent charging and 5-foot steps. Heavy undergrowth quadruples movement costs. There are several spells and class features available that allow the recipient to ignore the effects of difficult terrain -- if enemies have these spells, or can fly, they'll move with impunity while players are hindered.
Flood a room. Fighting while swimming underwater is crazy difficult, and if you use aquatic enemies or foes who are prepared with the right spells, enemies will be able to move and fight naturally while PCs are hindered.
Natural nonmagical high winds and rainstorms limit visibility, penalize ranged attacks, and penalize spot and listen checks. This is a dream come true for lurkers, ambushers, and assassins, who can use the environment to strike and fade while PCs struggle to detect and shoot at them. Combine with darkness and difficult terrain, and if the enemies are prepared while the PCs are not, the encounter will be considerably more difficult.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Do they share your opinion that their power level is a problem?

[HaikenEdge]

Do they share your opinion that their power level is a problem?

Agree on asking this. If they don't see their power level as a problem, maybe it's a problem of the paradigm, rather than a problem of the players.

[Starchild7309]

Do they share your opinion that their power level is a problem?

I would say no, but my worry is not how powerful they are in game. They are heroes, and should kick the natural stuffing out of most things. My real concern is that because they kick the natural stuffing out of EVERYTHING, that the game will get stale and people will lose interest.

Again, its a premade campaign and I understand the limitations of that. Also, as I said in my original post, it would see the nasty stuff that's put in the campaign as a surprise always seems to get avoided. Two of my players are long time DMs and kind of rules lawyers so anytime I hit them with something out of the ordinary they jump on me with, "how is that possible?"

Perhaps its me, but I have always considered the game to be more fun if it was challenging, if there seemed like there was a real sense of danger to my character. I guess others don't share that point of view and would rather walk around like Superman.

As I was saying though I was looking for some way with in the rules to hamper them in a creative way, if even only temporarily, that would give them the real sense like hey, I need to actually pay attention and not run screaming like a barbarian at everything cause I am invincible.

[Fouredged Sword]

Fell drain cloud of knives on a group of opponents. Tag them for a bunch of no-save negative levels.

[bekeleven]

Give them a caster with the Wu Jen spell Body Outside Body on their spell list, as well as a means to cast spells as a spell-like or supernatural ability. 1 Caster = 4 casters.

For a simple build, Wizard 10/Archmage 5 with Spell-Like Ability (Sonorous Hum), Spell-Like Ability (Spectral Dragon), Spell-Like Ability (Cloud of Knives), maybe Spell-Like Ability (something else) or something. and the feats Easy Metamagic (Fell Drain), Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration), Fell Drain, Extra Spell (BoB), etc. to taste.

With Nerveskitter, Ring of anticipation, sandals of the vagabond, and a host of other spells and items, you can get initiative high. This is important because Body Outside Body clones act on your turn, so you can't just celerity up an action. Although when possible, go in invisible and don't give the party a chance to notice!

Round 1: Cast body outside body to grow 3 clones. Each one casts quickened Sonorous Hum SLA, followed by spectral dragon SLA. The dragons attack 1/round with CL+Int bite attacks, and deal 1D6 strength damage + a negative level. Body outside body does not break invisibility, even the normal kind, and spectral dragon does not either.

Round 2, each backup dancer uses their second quickened sonorous hum and second spectral dragon. You can use your first.

If you're not satisfied with 7 negative levels/round on the party, the backups can pop their cloud of knives next, which also deals 1 negative level/turn, but ends invisibility (you should consider improved or superior for this). You pop your second dragon. You are now dealing 11 negative level/round with attacks but no saves, and nobody is using actions to do so.

So basically, you can still do whatever it is 15th level wizards do... 4 times, if you prepared everything outside of spells or magical items. I recommend SLAing Duelward and taking Mastery of Counterspelling. If each backup dancer casts it, you can almost automatically spell turning the first 3 to 4 attack spells from the party.

Note that if they don't have true seeing on tap, your party will find this a crappy encounter, because it means they were just walking into a room, the ceiling started humming, and then they all turned into wights.

[Lightlawbliss]

When players get ahead of where they should be in WBL, I'm a fan of very very hard fights (just on the edge of "possible to win"). My players tend to ether run and power level or figure out some way to win. Power leveling tends to result in WBL getting back to where it should be, and winning such a hard fight tends to give enough xp that they level.

[Starchild7309]

OK i have a few ideas, let me know what you think.

1. Change some of the lay out of the dungeons they have to go through so that it truly hinders their ability to fight...

2. Hit them all with a quest spell that would punish them for continuing their current path

3. Use a trap that sets off a Disjunction...(as I said they all have decent saves, but I am assuming that since they are all decked out in magic gear that they would still fail a few of the saves if the trap was set by a high level caster.)

I am not trying to kill them so draining a ton of levels from them I think is a bit overkill. Its also a setting where a character death is pretty much permanent or at least until they can get back to civilization so that leaves one of my players or two of my players out of the game while the other ones trek back to get them raised.

I kinda like my 3rd idea...it deals with WBL but they can still defend themselves. If i start out right destroying items like weapons then they are kinda screwed. What would the stats for a disjunction trap that had a DC of 25-27 look like? CL? Search and Disable dc? and how would you set it up in a dungeon so its most likely to go of with a party of 5 there?

[Vogonjeltz]

I would say no, but my worry is not how powerful they are in game. They are heroes, and should kick the natural stuffing out of most things. My real concern is that because they kick the natural stuffing out of EVERYTHING, that the game will get stale and people will lose interest.

Again, its a premade campaign and I understand the limitations of that. Also, as I said in my original post, it would see the nasty stuff that's put in the campaign as a surprise always seems to get avoided. Two of my players are long time DMs and kind of rules lawyers so anytime I hit them with something out of the ordinary they jump on me with, "how is that possible?"

Perhaps its me, but I have always considered the game to be more fun if it was challenging, if there seemed like there was a real sense of danger to my character. I guess others don't share that point of view and would rather walk around like Superman.

As I was saying though I was looking for some way with in the rules to hamper them in a creative way, if even only temporarily, that would give them the real sense like hey, I need to actually pay attention and not run screaming like a barbarian at everything cause I am invincible.

Instead of worrying, you should just ask them if they like the way the campaign is going or if you should try to make the fights harder.

[ericgrau]

I would say no, but my worry is not how powerful they are in game. They are heroes, and should kick the natural stuffing out of most things. My real concern is that because they kick the natural stuffing out of EVERYTHING, that the game will get stale and people will lose interest.

Again, its a premade campaign and I understand the limitations of that. Also, as I said in my original post, it would see the nasty stuff that's put in the campaign as a surprise always seems to get avoided. Two of my players are long time DMs and kind of rules lawyers so anytime I hit them with something out of the ordinary they jump on me with, "how is that possible?"

Perhaps its me, but I have always considered the game to be more fun if it was challenging, if there seemed like there was a real sense of danger to my character. I guess others don't share that point of view and would rather walk around like Superman.

As I was saying though I was looking for some way with in the rules to hamper them in a creative way, if even only temporarily, that would give them the real sense like hey, I need to actually pay attention and not run screaming like a barbarian at everything cause I am invincible.
I wouldn't debuff them then. I'd only make harder and more strategic encounters. Make heavy use of terrain and dungeon features. Like trees, cliffs and arrow slits. Hide and ambush. Never ever, not even then, make "lock and key" challenges with only one solution, but do have monsters make a smart setup in a stronghold that make it more difficult for the players. Have them use magic and magic items smartly too. Think of what you would do if you were playing a monster and how you'd set up your base; preferably using existing rulebooks to get your gear and constructions. Monsters don't need to be geniuses to have a smart setup. Especially if they have time to plan. Heck even have monsters buff then scry and die the players until the players wise up and start using divination and teleportation blocking abjurations. Have monsters divine the PCs in general.

I would also start tracking things that many groups hand wave for the sake of easily charging into fights without worrying about the small details. Track the economies of nations, imports, exports, food and water supplies for them and the players. How both nations and players transport goods. How they hold the things that hold their goods: bags of holding are basically big potato sacks that need to be slung over your shoulder or held in a backpack. Not something you can just stuff in your pocket. Plus they take time to rifle through, and even more time if you need to remove it from a backpack first. Why? Because the more you flesh out how everything works, the more options there are to disrupt them besides killing each other. Players can disrupt large enemy economies, and annoying foes can disrupt the activities of players in ways other than a straight fight. Players may start preparing new spells and tactics and overcome these challenges too. But then they'll have to diversify their preparations instead of arming themselves to the teeth with kill-it-dead options. And that's the goal really.

For that matter, keep track of how exactly monsters find the PCs instead of having them simply appear in front of the party. If you do that then you are partly to blame for the hack and slash mentality. Once the players start succeeding on secret saves against scrying they'll start putting up abjurations. You feel a vague hostile force when you pass a save, and some players can spellcraft it too. Once PCs spy on foes and see them following tracks, they'll start concealing their tracks. Or foes may gather information on the PCs to find out if they talked about what they're doing and use that information against them. Players may then become more secretive once they notice monsters appearing right at places they've talked about. Or PCs may do the same against monsters to catch them with their pants down and win a fight that might have otherwise killed a PC or two. Etc.

Introduce all of these gradually and stay well organized. The reason people skip the details is because they become too involved and time consuming and take away from the monster-hacking. Strike a balance between complex plans and monster hacking. And never track something in tedious fashion if it can't be involved in some plan. Briefly jot down a couple notes and expand it later only after it becomes important.

People like a challenge. I don't think anyone wants to easily roll over everything. What they don't want is to have their toys taken away with item destruction and permanent debuffs. I think if you start providing difficult but not impossible nor lock-and-key challenges then they'll enjoy it. Even higher CR hack and slash would be a small step.

[Starchild7309]

While I thank everyone for their input, I may have not stressed enough that while increasing the CR of the encounters is a very viable option normally, the reason we are running a premade campaign is because of out of game responsibilities and not having the time to really flesh out custom made encounters. I try to throw a few in when i have time to make them up and as I said they are the few things that seem to challenge them, but because I have already jacked up the CR for them, they are further in the level progression than they should be for the campaign and compiling that with the increased WBL of being ahead of the curve there is little to no challenge with actual storyline encounters. I understand this is product of my failure as a DM and felt that there should be some way to "reset" or hinder them at least for a bit to get their WBL back in line. That's why I was considering a disjunction trap. While I truly do appreciate the advice I have received here, I may just have to figure something else out becuase of time restraints.

Like I said, I don't want to kill them and I don't have the time as a DM to start from scratch with new encounters. I just need to find something to hinder them. I have leveled up some of the creatures they fight as they are going, but the cleric and the warforged get their AC so high that the last few encounters I couldn't even touch them without rolling a 20. As I stated in the beginning these players have optimized well without getting cheesy.

[ericgrau]

Oh, premade campaign. You could reduce treasure and/or fast forward to harder encounters. Because effectively they are too high level for the module, in spite of what their actual level may say. So you need a higher level portion of the module.

A simple way to reduce treasure would be to add the sell price of all the items (half market price) to the currency, find X%, then reduce the currency by that amount while leaving the items alone.

Another option would be to say to the players openly "Due to a mistake on my part which I apologize for, everyone please take away 2 levels on your character and deduct (diffference in WBL) less gear. You may choose which levels and which gear. This is a retcon so we are going to pretend like you were this way all along. If I had time I'd make the encounters harder instead but, sorry, I don't." I mean which is worse, this or "An evil wizard gives you all 2 negative levels in an AoE and then he disjunctions you."

[r2d2go]

While I thank everyone for their input, I may have not stressed enough that while increasing the CR of the encounters is a very viable option normally, the reason we are running a premade campaign is because of out of game responsibilities and not having the time to really flesh out custom made encounters. I try to throw a few in when i have time to make them up and as I said they are the few things that seem to challenge them, but because I have already jacked up the CR for them, they are further in the level progression than they should be for the campaign and compiling that with the increased WBL of being ahead of the curve there is little to no challenge with actual storyline encounters. I understand this is product of my failure as a DM and felt that there should be some way to "reset" or hinder them at least for a bit to get their WBL back in line. That's why I was considering a disjunction trap. While I truly do appreciate the advice I have received here, I may just have to figure something else out becuase of time restraints.

Like I said, I don't want to kill them and I don't have the time as a DM to start from scratch with new encounters. I just need to find something to hinder them. I have leveled up some of the creatures they fight as they are going, but the cleric and the warforged get their AC so high that the last few encounters I couldn't even touch them without rolling a 20. As I stated in the beginning these players have optimized well without getting cheesy.

The Warforged is your biggest problem, because Warforged are immune to almost everything.

For the Warforged, try mind-affecting stuff. Break Enchantment doesn't always work and even if it does, Dominate or equivalent will essentially be a one turn stun on the Warforged, plus him using his full combat abilities to attack squishy casters not expecting their ally to suddenly turn on them. Alternatively, distract the warforged by putting up illusions, which only allow saves when interacted with and thus will keep him busy. Just add those spells (or scrolls of said spells) to encounters, for ease of addition.

Dispel the Cleric/Paladin, assuming they're buffing up. Many squishy caster mooks will eventually get a high roll, especially with the reduced caster level from multiclassing or Prestige Paladin, so you can add them to give extra challenge. Alternatively, Quicken Dispel Magic, especially when metamagic reducers are involved, is perfectly viable for their level. Give the casters that.

Dispel Squad: Four 5th level wizards, one 7th level wizard. 5th level wizards cast Dispel, then 7th casts Invisibility Sphere, and they're all flying. Approx CR 10. Increase it to ten 5th level wizards, approx CR 12. Will quickly take down buffs.

5th level wizard stats: AC 12 (set as high as 20 with buffs), +4 Will, +3 Fort, +3 Ref, 24 HP.
7th level wizard stats: AC 12 (set as high as 24 with buffs), +5 Will, +4 Fort, +4 Ref, 33 HP.

As mentioned, Enervation is great. Chained Split Ray Enervation is probably enough, but Maximized Split Ray Enervation (use metamagic reducers) is more consistent and more powerful (four negative levels to two targets).

Basic Enervation Spammer Vital Stats: Generic divine spellcaster 8 (Unearthed Arcana), Radiant Servant of Pelor 1, Sacred Exorcist 1. Spams Split Ray Maximized Enervation. Make him invisible and flying if desired. AC 12 (set as high as 24 with buffs), Will +6, Fort +4, Ref +2, +4 to any one save, 55 hp.

Give enemies miss chances. It looks like most of the party is melee (all but Beguiler), so Greater Mirror Image + Greater Invisibility means they have a 94% miss chance, and only a 47% chance to get rid of an image. If they've got True Seeing, see Dispel.

[Curbstomp]

As I mentioned before, the Red Widow should be a challenging fight requiring minimal prep. If the party wins, they will have enjoyed a tough fight. And them winning is what you'd be aiming for probably. But, even if they lose, the game continues with 3/4 of them as thralls of a vampire. If they are questing for an artifact maybe she wants it. You can easily add a cure for vampirism side quest particularly if they are adventuring away from her and she has not explicitly forbidden it.