Gestalt Build "Best Swordsmen in the World!!"

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Alright so I want to combine in gestalt a Bard and a Swashbuckler.
I am taking a rapier as my weapon of choice because both are good with it and it fits the theme of the Swashbuckler. Taking Chain Shirt as my armor (Not sure if I want a buckler)

My spells are gonna be
Ghost sound
Detect Magic
Dancing Lights
Prestidigitation

Cure Light Wounds
Silent Image

Race is human and unlike most we still allow Flaws.

What feats should I pick up to make this guy the best sword fighter/Party Face ever.

[Xerlith]

What benefit do you get with combining Swashbuckler with Bard? Bard is charisma-driven, while Swashbuckler's only worthwile ability is the 3rd level int-to-damage.

A one-handed fighter will have problems with actually keeping up with the damage, since you don't get Power Attack goodness. For a dexterity-charisma flamboyant style I'd rather say:

Bard7/Swiftblade10/Bard+3//Battle Dancer 1/Fighter 1/Swashbuckler1/Warblade3/Swordsage 2/Warblade+X

Feats: Song of the White Raven, Snowflake Wardance, Shadow Blade, Dragonfire Inspiration. (And Dodge and Mobility for Swiftblade)

Dex to atk and dmg, Cha to AC, full Inspire Courage progression (DFI gives you about 6d6 without optimization), +2d6 dmg from Swiftblade, +2d6 sneak attack if applicable (Assassin's Stance)...

You may want to squeeze Able Learner in there if you want.


ALternatively

Bard20//Battle Dancer1/Fighter2/Swordsage1/Warblade1/Arcane Duelist 10/Swordsage+1/Warblade +X

works too. Twice Cha to AC, Arcane Duelist stuff, Dex to atk/damage... Yep. Could do.

Buy Slippers of Battledancing.


EDIT: Spot check epic fail. Oops. :smallredface:

[Greenish]

What benefit do you get with combining Swashbuckler with Bard? Bard is charisma-driven, while Swashbuckler's only worthwile ability is the 3rd level int-to-damage.

<snip>It is tagged "Pathfinder".

Not that Bard/Swashbuckler makes much more sense in PF, and probably doesn't really capture the "best swordman" vibe even if PF swashbuckler does have some Cha synergy.


I don't know what OP level you're aiming at, but at the lower end, Fighter//Bard would offer a pretty decent chassis with less overlap (it'd have all good saves, for one, instead of trying to melee with poor Fort).

[Feint's End]

On another note. A warlord/bard makes for a surprisingly effective swordsmaster and partyface.

[Greenish]

On another note. A warlord/bard makes for a surprisingly effective swordsmaster and partyface.I'm not sure where the "surprising" part comes from. :smalltongue:

Not that I haven't whipped up a Warlord//Bard meself, but I'm not sure 3rd party is allowed, and whether PoW would have too high a floor for the game in question.


As for the actual question in OP, the one about which feats he should take (and not, actually, about playing the best swordmen in the game, which would require Leadership anyway)...

Well, I'm a bit out of PF right now, and drawing mostly blanks. Power Attack he might not have Str for, Piranha Strike only works with light weapons, Dervish Dance or Slashing Grace don't work with rapiers, a lot of stuff he can't qualify at level 1. I'd probably guess Combat Reflexes (since he presumably has good Dex, and some use of AoO), and, say, Combat Expertise (if he can wing the Int) since it's prerequisite for a huge number of feats. Or Eschew Materials, because who has time to play with bat poo when there's dazzling swordplay to do (wizards, that's who).

[Darkweave31]

You mean "Best swordsman in the world!" as a boast and not an actual goal right?

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Ok I am not sure if anyone here has read the new Hybrid classes
Swashbuckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler)

There is no Warlord in Core or Pazio books in Pathfinder.

Swashbucklers Panache points (Basically Grit) is given to you by Cha so its your primary stat (Goes well with Bards I figured)
You gain good deeds which give you some interesting effects like Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex) at first level which basically allows you while carrying the rapier to block an attack and counter attack which is useful and goes with the theme. All you have to do is roll higher on the to attack roll then the opponent. Weapon Finesse is great for this because even if you do not have good Strength you will likely hit more often even if you are not dealing as much damage. (Bonus I dont need to burn a feat on Weapon Finesse the Swashbucklers gives it to me)

Piranha Strike would be nice but I don't think Rapier counts as Light, it is one handed so while nice a little out of my range unless I change it to dagger fighting.

Why use Swashbuckler, Theme really. But a d10 hit dice, full bab, and clever little melee tricks on top of a build that can already buff itself to high heaven seems like a solid build for a martial swordsmen

[Feint's End]

Are you a first time poster here? Not that we will judge you because of it but because we use some terms and or descriptions in short because we assume you know them.

Warlord is a class from Dreamscarred Press. One of the best 3rd party content producers for Pathfinder (actually they are much better balanced than Paizo). The Warlord is a class from the Path of War and uses a subsystem called maneuvers which are essentially martial tricks (they come in 9 grades like spells too). The maneuver system was first introduced in 3.5.

Swashbuckler are bad .... very bad.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I have posted before. I just woke up and forgot about dreamscars PoW books.

Why do you say that?

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Are you a first time poster here? Not that we will judge you because of it but because we use some terms and or descriptions in short because we assume you know them.

Warlord is a class from Dreamscarred Press. One of the best 3rd party content producers for Pathfinder (actually they are much better balanced than Paizo). The Warlord is a class from the Path of War and uses a subsystem called maneuvers which are essentially martial tricks (they come in 9 grades like spells too). The maneuver system was first introduced in 3.5.

[B]Swashbuckler are bad .... very bad.[\B]

Why do you say that?

[Greenish]

In order of appearance:

Low Fort and Will on a melee class.
Only light armour with no shields meaning low AC. (Nimble helps a bit, but still.)
Low damage (no TWF, no two-handing, Dex-based without Dex to damage sans a feat). Precise Strike isn't enough to carry the day, and is precision damage.
Deeds are "clever little melee tricks". That's not how a classes main class feature should be characterized.


At least, those are my first thoughts, I haven't really followed the Swash discussion on playtest threads and stuff.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Charmed life covers bad fort saves.

Weapon training adds increased hit and damage. Albeit not to much

Level to damage is nice given its in addition to strength damage too. Also applies to thrown weapons.

Those little tricks are what the class is to play a martial who is flavorful and has a unique flare of combat style.

They have a few bonus feats so you can pick up the feats you may need.

BTW are you meaning pirahna strike?

[Greenish]

Charmed life covers bad fort saves.Pull the other one, it's got bells on.


Weapon training adds increased hit and damage. Albeit not to muchHitting's actually not a problem. Full BAB, free finesse, no penalties from TWF or PA or other things that, you know, allow you to actually do more than tickle when hitting.


BTW are you meaning pirahna strike?Hmm?

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Hitting well is good for the parry ability allowing u to block an attack and counter attack.

Yea he only gets one good save normally but you get to a max of seven uses of charmed life a day.

What feat are you talking about then?

[Greenish]

Hitting well is good for the parry ability allowing you to block an attack and counter attack.

Yea he only gets one good save normally but you get to a max of seven uses of charmed life a day.Of course, he can't use both riposte and charmed life on the same round (let alone many of the other deeds that also require swift/immediate actions), but when would you ever have to make fort saves and block attacks at the same time (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/ghoul/ghoul-ghast)?


What feat are you talking about then?What feat am I talking about where?

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Parry is an attack of opportunity and charmed is an immediate action.

The Dex to damage feat you mentioned.

[cesius]

What feats should I pick up to make this guy the best sword fighter/Party Face ever.

Vital Strike
Arcane Strike --> Riving Strike
Canny Tumble --> Confounding Tumble Deed
--> Pommel Strike Deed
Dueling Cape
Dazzling Display

[Greenish]

Parry is an attack of opportunity and charmed is an immediate action.Parry is an AoO, but the Riposte takes an immediate action. (And Dodging Attack, Kip-Up, and Menacing Swordplay are all swift actions.)


The Dex to damage feat you mentioned.Dervish Dance or Slashing Grace would either work, except not with the rapier.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Slash grace actually let's the slashing weapons count as piercing for the swashbucklers precise strike ability.. Interesting

[Greenish]

Slash grace actually let's the slashing weapons count as piercing for the swashbucklers precise strike ability.. InterestingIt's the price you pay for defying the ghost of Flynn.

It's also designed to only really work at all with Swashbucklers (or Daring Champion Cavaliers etc.).

[deuxhero]

Take Dawnflower Dervish on the bard side: It makes you better at hitting things, gives great survivability at latter levels (drop inspire greatness as a free action, restart it as a swift action for lots of easily renewed temp HP) and gives you a feat you would be taking any ways.

Bard//Warlord is WAY better if its an option.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Well we are trying to keep this Core and the new Hybrid Classes.

Agile weapons allow Dex to damage and its pretty cheap for a Swashbuckler to get 4000 GP I would need for the +1 Agile Rapier.
Since Swashbuckler counts as a fighter for the purpose of feats he can choose any fighter feat for his Bonus Feats.

[Feint's End]

AFAIK an agile rapier +1 costs 8000 gold and it only gets more expensive from there.

The general problem is that swashbucklers are just not a good class. They have all the problems of the fighter + they have worse ac and some semisolid features to make up for it.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Mithral medium armor gives them decent ac along eith their ac bonuses and high dex

But their damage output is actually fairly good and they are tricky to fight given they dont fight with combat maneuvers are later immune to disarm or sunder of their chosen weapon. But can disarm a foe with focused strike.(so long as u rule weapons are items)

They have good hd and bab and solid skills as well. So what if they can't pounce with a greatsword and power. attack

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Also the archetype that lets you use whip is nice

[NightbringerGGZ]

A Swashbuckler / Bard isn't too bad, but only due to the Bard being a strong a class. Swashbuckler adds very little value aside from a single level dip to almost any build. In my opinion it suffers from both a poor foundation (in terms of the classes it is a 'hybrid' of) and very poor decision making during the design process.

My recommendation would be for a Dex-based build, making sure you have 13 Strength so you can pick up Power Attack. Depending on your build, you may have the option of using a Buckler. High Dex, Light Armor and a Buckler should leave you with plenty of AC. Bard levels will grant you good Reflex and Will saves.

You can get Dex to damage through one of three methods. Bard (Dawnflower Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish)) starts you off at level one with the Dervish Dance feat. This build can't use a Buckler, but you get doubled bonuses on certain Performance buffs when you use Battle Dance. The second method is to pick up Slashing Grace. You can grab this at first level as a Human or if you pick an archetype which grants Weapon Focus with a one-handed slashing weapon. Third, you could use Fencing Grace (http://paizo.com/products/btpy978v/discuss&page=21?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Advanced-Class-Guide#1045) which provides Dex to Damage with a Rapier. You can grab this at level 1 with the Inspired Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler/archetypes/paizo---swashbuckler-archetypes/inspired-blade) archetype (which is a rather nice archetype if you plan to use a Rapier & Buckler).


First, it has terrible action economy. The primary iconic abilities all require swift actions (or immediate actions, consuming your swift action to use). If you opt to use damage boosting abilities, you can't use the defensive ones. Want to use the defensive ones? You only get to use them once per round. On top of that, the Parry & Riposte combo will also consume your AoO.

Second, it has very limited build options. This is a legacy of the terrible Gunslinger chasis the class is built off of, but basically the class really pushes you towards very specific builds to be somewhat effective at one thing (dealing melee damage). And you'll be outclassed in that regard by any of the many Gish classes out there.

Third, many of the iconic "Swashbuckler" maneuvers can be better accomplished with preexisting archetypes, feats and PRCs. The remaining Deeds are also just copy & pasted from the Gunslinger class, and are both dull and of marginal utility.

Fourth, if you combo with Bard you'll have better options for your Swift Actions from the Bard levels instead of the Swashbuckler ones. I think you'll find that aside from static damage bonuses, most of your Swashbuckler levels will wind up being dead levels.

Bard/Swashbuckler basically winds up being a Full BAB bard with some good static damage bonuses. I would avoid archetypes that give up Versatile Performance, you'll want the out of combat utility. Bard Performances & spells make you a decent buffer. Pick up Dex to Damage and Power Attack as quickly as possible, then choose feats as you wish. I would recommend feats that boost your Bardic abilities.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I don't know why the hate at level 11 Swashbucklers becomes untouchable with the right build. Parry becomes a blessing at that level given that everyone here openly admits that To Hit is not a issue for the Swashbuckler with Dex to Hit and Full BAB allowing the Swashbuckler to hit more often then not. Well if you put a bit of effort into it by level 11 you can almost always parry and defeat an opponents attack roll. So why do you need ungodly AC when you can simply parry every strike the opponent throws your way. With massive Dex Combat Reflexes pays for itself.

[Drelua]

I don't know, I wanted to like the Swashbuckler, but it looks really disappointing to me. I have a high level Monk whose essentially unhittable, and I can tell from experience that it's useless without decent damage output, which I don't think a Swashbuckler can really manage. My Monk has decent damage, but as soon as the Magus walks in and obliterates something no one attacks me. I don't think a Swashbuckler can be this hard to hit either, especially when you consider the size of a lot of high level enemies. Remember, there's a -2 per size category of difference. There's a lot of enemies that can throw quite a number of natural attacks at you in a round, and when that happens you won't be beating them on every single attack roll. Plus, if you get mobbed, you'll run out of AoOs eventually. That's not even getting into magical attacks...

Honestly, I really wanted the Swashbuckler to be good, but it just isn't. It's damage output isn't great, and it's far from invulnerable at any level.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I don't know with Fencing Grace plus Precise Strike you are adding Dex and Level to Damage, Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus makes your Dex your to hit and gives you a bonus +1 to hit. Fighter feats let you grab Weapon Specialization feats which adds +2 then +4 if you go greater.

Also given Rapier is the most comment and you can try to extend Crit range at level 20 you auto crit, with level 19 Deed you force anyone you crit (Which auto confirms) to roll a Fort save of 10 +1/2 level + Dex modifier. How sure some can save against this but well some just wont and instantly killing foes is always good.

And yes if you get mobbed you will run out of AoO a turn, which is why you have Riposte to counter attack and try to kill then quick.

I agree its not a major damage dealer, its never going to be the guy walking into a battle in +5 Plate wielding a +5 Vorpal Greatsword Pouncing and Power Attacking.

I do admit it relies far to much on Swift and Immediate actions.

[Drelua]

I really don't think parry is as reliable as you're making it out to be. As an example, here's a randomly selected 1st party CR 12 Monster, the Black Jinni (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/black-jinni). It has 2 claws at +24 and a gore at +23, plus it's large. You're got 11 BAB plus an absolute max of +9 DEX, 1 from weapon focus if you blew a feat on it, and a couple more from your presumably magic weapon, so, best case scenario, you're about 50/50 on each attack, or a bit better if it's power attacking. When it gets through, which it probably will at least once in a turn, you're taking something close to 30 damage.

You can riposte on one of these attacks, but your damage is only, what, about d6 plus twenty something? It has 184 hit points, so it'll die in about 9 hits. The good news is it's AC is only 28, but then it also has constant concealment. Still, you should be able to take it down in a few rounds, if it doesn't kill you first. Meanwhile, the rest of the party does better damage, and it decides to focus on someone who's more of a threat, like a caster, rendering your whole parry and riposte strategy useless.

Of course, this would be very different if I happened to randomly select a monster with some decent spells. Then it hits you with a Fort or Will save, and even with your Charisma bonus added on as an immediate action a few times per day, you still don't have a great save and all you can do is hope you roll high. Like I said, I really wanted it to be a good class, but it just isn't.

Edit: it occurs to me that this advice isn't very constructive. Instead of telling you what doesn't work, I'll try giving you some ideas for what does. I'm a fan of the Mobile Fighter for it's ability to move while full attacking, or the Urban Barbarian for a DEX-based rage. Of course, if you're dead set on going with Swashbuckler, go ahead, I just don't think it'll perform as well as you're expecting in actual play.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

So in short "If it isn't clad in Full Plate and swinging a big sword it sucks as a martial character"
You must think Monks absolutely suck given they cannot hit more then 2 of their flurry of blows with any real accuracy.
Fighters must be horrible as well without cookie cutting their feats to grant them things like Power Attack, Pounce, etc.

By Level 11, you can also intimidate the creature, deny its AC through another deed, and simply leave it Confused ot Staggered for round after round.

Now what I am curious about is why you act like each class is meant to be soloing encounters in a vacuum.

As for spell casters I can same the same for Barbarians and Fighters too.. both are helpless against spellcasters for the most part.

[Drelua]

I don't see how any of that is a logical extension of anything I said. I happen to love monks, and they can be very effective with the right equipment. My level 15 Hungry Ghost Qinggong monk has an AC in the 50s and does decent damage, rarely landing as few as 2 of his 8 attacks in a flurry of blows, and having all sorts of options like dimension door, scorching ray, spit venom, and some pretty solid skills.

I also certainly wouldn't consider Barbarians to be helpless against spell casters with the right rage powers, like superstitious and spell sunder. This can also be a weakness of fighters, depending on how they're built, but saying another class has the same weakness doesn't in any way mean that Swashbucklers don't have that weakness. Fighters at least have options like Step Up and Strike and Spellbreaker, Swashbucklers just don't have the feats for all that.

Honestly, I'm just here for a casual conversation and hopefully to give some people a bit of helpful advice. If you're going to put words in my mouth and ignore my actual points when I'm trying to be helpful, I'm just not going to take part in the conversation. I'm not looking for an argument, I just really don't believe that the Swashbuckler is a very good class.

[Feint's End]

So in short "If it isn't clad in Full Plate and swinging a big sword it sucks as a martial character"
You must think Monks absolutely suck given they cannot hit more then 2 of their flurry of blows with any real accuracy.
Fighters must be horrible as well without cookie cutting their feats to grant them things like Power Attack, Pounce, etc.

By Level 11, you can also intimidate the creature, deny its AC through another deed, and simply leave it Confused ot Staggered for round after round.

Now what I am curious about is why you act like each class is meant to be soloing encounters in a vacuum.

As for spell casters I can same the same for Barbarians and Fighters too.. both are helpless against spellcasters for the most part.

That's not what he said and also nobody here is hating on the Swashbuckler. The problem is it's just not a very good designed class.

What is it's design goal? From my understanding it is to be a viable melee with some neat tricks up it's sleeves. It just fails do deliver. It has pretty bad damage scaling (most melee classes can reach around 200-300 damage / round if all attacks hit without trying hard) and the utility comes mostly from tricks which all eat up the swift/immeditate actions making most of them a 1/round thing.

I think what he was talking about is also not that he wants encounters to be soloed but the point is that most decent melee classes can do good amounts of damage without much of optimisation (more than the Swashbuckler) and have utility on top. I personally think the Magus isn't really one of the best damage classes since the class relies more on bursts of damage but that doesn't mean it's not solid and has lots of utility without pouring much effort into the class.

On another note:
-Monks are bad. If you stay on these boards for sometime you will surely find one of the monkday threads explaining why. Doesn't mean they can't be decent of course. A Hungry Ghost Qinggong Monk two handing a quarterstaff is actually pretty scary but still only at dealing damage (solid t4).
-Fighters are also pretty bad compared to many other melee or semimelee classes (Summoner looking at you). Feats just don't make up for real classfeatures and their to-hit and damage boosts are way too low to be on par with what other classes can get.


As has been mentioned the combination you proposed isn't bad but mainly because you got bard on 1 side which makes a lot of things ok (it helps with damage and to hit for once). Definitely not the worst gestalt but it all depends on your group. Maybe let us know the rest of your group?
I can also understand why you only got 1st party allowed but I would personally play a Warlord/Bard. Warlords can fill a lot of the same flavour but are mechanically working and a very strong t4 (maybe even t3 but I doubt it).

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I do not mean to be rude I just don't see this idea that they are so flawed.

I am not getting how other martials are so much better at level 11. I mean even if you buy a Belt of Giant Strength +6 and put your points into Strength you are swinging the same damage without power attack.

Edit:
So I am curious why people say Warlord, you have to choose between a spell or a maneuver you can only use one at a time.

[Drelua]

I do not mean to be rude I just don't see this idea that they are so flawed.

I am not getting how other martials are so much better at level 11. I mean even if you buy a Belt of Giant Strength +6 and put your points into Strength you are swinging the same damage without power attack.

I'm sorry, but that's just just not true. Other martials will be using two-handed weapons for a bigger damage die and 1.5x their STR mod, plus they can get reach weapons, which are really useful. It's also not really a fair comparison to exclude power attack, since that's a great feat for Fighters that they almost always take. I almost never make a fighter without power attack and furious focus because they're just that good.


Edit:
So I am curious why people say Warlord, you have to choose between a spell or a maneuver you can only use one at a time.

I don't see how maneuvers differ from attacks in that regard. :smallconfused:

Anyway, I'd like to give you some useful advice, I truly just can't see how to make them good. The class just disappointed me and I don't see anything I could to do make it very good. For a similar theme, you might want to look into the Ustalavic Duelist Fighter archetype, and consider going into Duelist at level 7, maybe. It doesn't have the Charisma synergy, but personally I think it works a bit better, and has much better action economy.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

there is an Archetype that allows you to use a Whip for your weapons for those deeds of their.

Also the deeds say you need to fight with one hand... what about TWF one in each hand.

[Feint's End]

I do not mean to be rude I just don't see this idea that they are so flawed.

I am not getting how other martials are so much better at level 11. I mean even if you buy a Belt of Giant Strength +6 and put your points into Strength you are swinging the same damage without power attack.

Edit:
So I am curious why people say Warlord, you have to choose between a spell or a maneuver you can only use one at a time.

You are missing some things though. Even on a straight up melee class like the barbarian (very simple, very straight forward) you have to take into account that you not only have higher multiplier (pa and str) but also a way to boost damage even further. If you compare to the Fighter you get away somewhat better but you are still behind (and Fighters are already on the lower end of the spectrum).
That is of course if you compare the Swashbuckler to the melee classes with less utility. There is the Inquisitor, who has very high damage if buffed up (well beyond Fighters) and is a skillmonkey on top. There is the Summoner who has a companion able to wreck enemy faces better than most melee PC classes on their own. Don't even get me started on Psywars.

The problem is that they are not only on the lower end of the damage spectrum and need a lot of work (or at least more investment than some classes mentioned above) to be even there but also that they have little else to do. You have this 1/r thing and that's about it on top of a mediocre chassis.

@Warlord: well you would use your bardic spells to buff mostly so instead of attacking with a stick when you don't cast spells you instead use a maneuver. Most of them are better than just straight up hitting your enemy.