Could Xykon and Redcloak have conquered Girard's gate?

[elros]

I'm wondering if Team Evil could have defeated all of Girard's defenses if they were at full strength (i.e. his descendants were alive, all spells active, etc). They arrived without their Goblin/Hobglobin army (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html), so the battle would have just involved two high level casters (and the MitD, for what it's worth), and the question is if they could have overcome all the illusions, etc set up by the Drakentooth clan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html)

On the plus side, Xykon would be immune to mind-affecting spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) but not most of the illusions, and given his relatively clueless nature it makes sense that he would be fooled or damaged (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0893.html) by some, if not most, of the tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0894.html). Redcloak, however, has an awesome will-save because of his high cleric level and wisdom score (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?329816-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XII-Even-Nerds-Call-Us-Nerds), so he might be able to shrug off those defenses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) by himself.

On the down side, neither of them are skilled at detecting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html), avoiding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0855.html), or disabling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0867.html) traps, and Xykon likes to rush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html) in (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) and often wastes spells because he doesn't understand his enemies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html). In SoD
he even admits that he ignores strategy and just slings spells against his opponents.

So do you think they could have made it? In other words, did V's spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html) prevent Xykon from being defeated, just like Miko prevented it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) in Azure city? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)

[Keltest]

The short version is yes. Most illusions are mind effecting spells, and even if they aren't there are a variety of steps that can be taken to protect oneself and others. They can literally just send in the MITD first to trip all the traps, and laugh at the silly humans who put them there. And while Xykon is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, he is far less of an idiot than he appears (do not confuse not caring with not knowing and all that).

The only unknown are the Draketooths themselves. We have no idea what any of them were capable of doing, or how powerful they were. If they were all like level 5 illusionists, the poor saps would be zombified trap fodder for sure. If they had a bunch of near-epic fighters and wizards in the pyramid, Xykon might have been in trouble if he neglected to prepare something like his "symbol of insanity on a bouncing ball".

[Xelbiuj]

Easily I imagine. Haven't really heard any arguments why they couldn't.
Nothing about Girard's gate really counters them and unlike Soon's, no reason to expect that there's an epic ghost paladin waiting to give out paddle'ns.

[factotum]

I disagree there. As O-Chul pointed out to Haley before the battle of Azure City, a whole bunch of low-level mooks can still cause some serious damage to a high-level character, and given the level of the illusions the Draketooth clan were casting, they were anything *but* low-level mooks. Certainly, given the Order combined with the clan, there would have been a chance they could win, especially with Redcloak taken out of the fight with illusions.

The major weakness of the Draketooth's defence was that it relied exclusively on the bond of blood--e.g. everyone guarding the Gate was a member of the same family. This didn't work well when Familicide raised its head!

[Keltest]

I disagree there. As O-Chul pointed out to Haley before the battle of Azure City, a whole bunch of low-level mooks can still cause some serious damage to a high-level character, and given the level of the illusions the Draketooth clan were casting, they were anything *but* low-level mooks. Certainly, given the Order combined with the clan, there would have been a chance they could win, especially with Redcloak taken out of the fight with illusions.

The major weakness of the Draketooth's defence was that it relied exclusively on the bond of blood--e.g. everyone guarding the Gate was a member of the same family. This didn't work well when Familicide raised its head!

I think describing that as a major weakness is overstating things. The clan was quite isolationist, and how many spells do you know of that affect blood relatives like Familicide did? And even if someone had one, they would first need to find a member of the Draketooth clan to cast the thing on. The fact that the ABD was distantly related to them is a fluke that nobody could have predicted.

[orrion]

I disagree there. As O-Chul pointed out to Haley before the battle of Azure City, a whole bunch of low-level mooks can still cause some serious damage to a high-level character, and given the level of the illusions the Draketooth clan were casting, they were anything *but* low-level mooks. Certainly, given the Order combined with the clan, there would have been a chance they could win, especially with Redcloak taken out of the fight with illusions.

The major weakness of the Draketooth's defence was that it relied exclusively on the bond of blood--e.g. everyone guarding the Gate was a member of the same family. This didn't work well when Familicide raised its head!

A high level character is just as capable of wiping out a bunch of low-level mooks with ease.. as Xykon did to the (living) Sapphire Guard. I found your mention of O-Chul saying that a bit funny given what happened in Azure City. "Hey, we can be a pain in the ass to a high level character." "And were you?" "....No."

What illusions do we know they actually cast that makes you so confident they weren't low-level mooks?

How would illusions take Redcloak out of the fight? He's a Cleric; he's got to have at least one True Seeing spell handy.

I don't think that's really a weakness. "Hey, some long-dead Necromancer damned to the lower planes has this Epic spell you don't and can't know about which you're extremely vulnerable to. If some jackass Wizard ever goes insane and makes a deal to get the Necromancer Soul Spliced and casts that spell on some black dragon you've never had any contact with but whom shares your bloodline, you're screwed sideways with a 10 foot pole."

[Corneel]

What illusions do we know they actually cast that makes you so confident they weren't low-level mooks?
"Shifting Paths" mentioned twice on the list (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) is an 8th level spell for Sorcerers & Wizards and thus would require that both Kanta and Venna are at least 16th (if Soc) or 15th level (if Wiz).
Sa?i as well since Screen is also an 8th level spell.
Tiran sr. should be at least 12th/11th (6th level spell Illusory Pit)
Gina should be at least 10th/9th (5th level spell Mirage Arcana).

[Kish]

Vaarsuvius' mass murder certainly made Xykon's unlife easier. How much easier is unknowable.

[SaintRidley]

Girard did the arcane Microcrosm.

Otherwise we know that these spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) were on the table.

Which means that Gina was at least a 10th level Sorcerer (Mirage Arcana); Orrin was high enough level to cast Phantasmagoria, whatever that is (homebrew); Sami was at least a 16th level Sorcerer (Screen); Kanta and Venna are at least 16th level Sorcerers (Shifting Paths); Tiran Sr. was at least a 12th level Sorcerer (Illusory Pit); Tiran Gr. (is that a typo for Jr.?) was at least a 4th level Sorcerer (Misdirection), but probably higher (or cast multiple times a day) in order for him to be useful in casting it on the Canyon due to the 1 hour/level duration; Dylan was at least a 10th level Sorcerer (False Vision); and Liana was at least a 4th level Sorcerer (Wall of Gloom), though possibly higher (or having some help) in order for it to be useful in the canyon, since the duration is measured in rounds via persist or some other effect (persist would mean she was at least a 16th level Sorcerer).

[Shale]

There can't have been more than a one in a million chance it would ever come up.

[BaronOfHell]

No, Roy destroyed it.

[Itrogash]

Girard did the arcane Microcrosm.

Otherwise we know that these spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) were on the table.

Which means that Gina was at least a 10th level Sorcerer (Mirage Arcana); Orrin was high enough level to cast Phantasmagoria, whatever that is (homebrew); Sami was at least a 16th level Sorcerer (Screen); Kanta and Venna are at least 16th level Sorcerers (Shifting Paths); Tiran Sr. was at least a 12th level Sorcerer (Illusory Pit); Tiran Gr. (is that a typo for Jr.?) was at least a 4th level Sorcerer (Misdirection), but probably higher (or cast multiple times a day) in order for him to be useful in casting it on the Canyon due to the 1 hour/level duration; Dylan was at least a 10th level Sorcerer (False Vision); and Liana was at least a 4th level Sorcerer (Wall of Gloom), though possibly higher (or having some help) in order for it to be useful in the canyon, since the duration is measured in rounds via persist or some other effect (persist would mean she was at least a 16th level Sorcerer).

Wow, there might have been more high level casters in Girard's Pyramid than we've ever seen gathered together on-screen.
I think there might have been at least one epic caster amongst Draketooths. Sure, Girard is dead, but according to the graph he had four children. They probably took over after him when he died. Since he died of old age, we can assume, that they themselves weren't that young, so it can be assumed, that at least one of them spent all this time exping to advance to epic level. I mean, with all this roleplaying exp from those romance scams they had pulled off and some adventuring it shouldn't have been that hard.

It doesn't necessarily mean they would win easily though. Draketooths were protecting the Gate with tricks and illusions, not brute force. They weren't really battlemages. Sure, they may have predicted the possibility, that someday they would have to fight, but their ability to fight would still be secondary to illusions. You don't have much spells as a sorcerer, and they probably mostly invested in illusions and abjurations and probbly divinations. That doesn't leave much place for something punch-worthy. They would probably put some resistance trying to outsmarting them, but with the sheer power of Xykon (and intellect of Redcloak to back him up against the tricks) it might not be enough.

[Mauve Shirt]

"Hey, we can be a pain in the ass to a high level character." "And were you?" "....No."

O-Chul's a terrible example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html) of a minor character who failed to pain the ass of a higher level character. :smallamused:

[Keltest]

O-Chul's a terrible example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html) of a minor character who failed to pain the ass of a higher level character. :smallamused:

To be fair, im pretty sure that it was V who cause the wound below the belt. With lightning, somehow.

Remind me never to get stabbed by lightning.

[Rodin]

To be fair, im pretty sure that it was V who cause the wound below the belt. With lightning, somehow.

Remind me never to get stabbed by lightning.

It's all those little forky bits. They're pokey.

[elros]

We can safely assume the Drakentooths are sorcerers who specialize in illusions and enchantment. One of them should be able to enchant MitD since Xykon was able to enchant him in SOD, so we have to wonder how well Xykon and Redcloak would hold up going against him and the Drakentooth clan at the same time.

[orrion]

O-Chul's a terrible example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html) of a minor character who failed to pain the ass of a higher level character. :smallamused:

Nobody said "minor character." We were talking low level versus high level. As of your link, there was at most a 4 level difference between Redcloak and O-Chul (Redcloak hadn't reached 17 yet which puts him at 16 and O-Chul would have been at his currently pegged "12+") and I'm inclined to think it was less. That's quite a bit different than it was with Xykon.

[AbyssStalker]

I highly doubt they would hold up a candle next to Team Evil, Redcloak alone could probably summon enough elementals to kill them multiple times over, MitD probably wouldn't be trusted to go into an area based so heavily on trickery and manipulation so I doubt they could use him against them, and then there is Xykon, who, although might be troubled by one or two things up the Draketooth's sleeve, would likely just overpower them regardless.

What I wonder is how they would have done if backed up by the Order of the Stick.

[AbyssStalker]

Vaarsuvius' mass murder certainly made Xykon's unlife easier. How much easier is unknowable.

In my opinion, it probably worked out for the best given the situation, the Draketooth's might have been so reclusive and distrusting of outsiders that they might have resisted, or killed, the Order of the Stick, whom I am sure are far more susceptible to their defenses than Team Evil. If they resisted the Order of the Stick then the Order might not have been able to destroy the gate before Xykon wiped out their defenses and secured the gate. Not trying to say that Vaarsuvius was in the right by casting familicide or anything like that.

Plus I don't think they would be to happy about the Order bringing a 2nd tier villain in on their heels, that is if Tarquin still decided to attack in a small group and not whip out his army, this situation could have gotten complicated quick.

Although I guess it is possible they could have heard out the Order's plea and responded reasonably, but I find that unlikely, especially since they would probably become more paranoid after seeing the indicator for three of the other gates go down.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

In the end, I think that Team Evil would have been able to defeat the Draketooths and take the Gate, if they had gone there right from Azure City. One of the main reasons why Xykon agreed to stay in Azure City was because they had nearly been killed at that Gate, and Redcloak pointed out that it would be best for them to learn more so that it doesn't happen again. I think that this time, they would be more prepared.

[orrion]

In the end, I think that Team Evil would have been able to defeat the Draketooths and take the Gate, if they had gone there right from Azure City. One of the main reasons why Xykon agreed to stay in Azure City was because they had nearly been killed at that Gate, and Redcloak pointed out that it would be best for them to learn more so that it doesn't happen again. I think that this time, they would be more prepared.

More cautious, maybe, but not more prepared. I don't think they learned anything more. O-Chul was lying when he told Redcloak about the illusions - he had no idea he was partially correct, and Redcloak could have guessed that illusions would be in play anyway. The only reason they went to Giirard's Gate when they did was because Xykon decided they had fooled around in Azure City long enough when his phylactery was lost. He overrode Redcloak's desire to learn more. If they did manage to learn anything while it was found or while they were in the Astral Plane, I don't recall that readers were made privy to it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

More cautious, maybe, but not more prepared. I don't think they learned anything more. O-Chul was lying when he told Redcloak about the illusions - he had no idea he was partially correct, and Redcloak could have guessed that illusions would be in play anyway. The only reason they went to Giirard's Gate when they did was because Xykon decided they had fooled around in Azure City long enough when his phylactery was lost. He overrode Redcloak's desire to learn more. If they did manage to learn anything while it was found or while they were in the Astral Plane, I don't recall that readers were made privy to it.

Xykon was definitely working on somethings because he was frustrated that he couldn't do more. I think they also could have easily attempted to scry on the Draketooth's location to see if they found anything. Even if they did leave before finding out anything, being careful, rational, and cautious are probably enough.

[orrion]

Xykon was definitely working on somethings because he was frustrated that he couldn't do more. I think they also could have easily attempted to scry on the Draketooth's location to see if they found anything. Even if they did leave before finding out anything, being careful, rational, and cautious are probably enough.

I'd be very surprised if the pyramid hadn't been warded against scrying like the Azure City throne room.

Xykon was making magic items and couldn't spend more than 8 hours at it.. not sure if that's the frustration you're referring to. Can't recall anything else, and in any case we don't know what he made. Maybe the fire immunity item, but he could have had that already.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'd be very surprised if the pyramid hadn't been warded against scrying like the Azure City throne room.

Xykon was making magic items and couldn't spend more than 8 hours at it.. not sure if that's the frustration you're referring to. Can't recall anything else, and in any case we don't know what he made. Maybe the fire immunity item, but he could have had that already.
Even finding out what the defenses against scrying are is helpful.

I was thinking he could be making magic items to help them out. We don't know what he made, but I imagine they would have been useful at the pyramid.

[factotum]

One of the main reasons why Xykon agreed to stay in Azure City was because they had nearly been killed at that Gate, and Redcloak pointed out that it would be best for them to learn more so that it doesn't happen again. I think that this time, they would be more prepared.

That was largely a ploy on Redcloak's behalf--he wanted himself and Xykon around to hold off attacks while Gobbotopia got established. He admitted as much after interrogating O-Chul on the roof. As for Xykon making magic items, that would only help if they knew what they were going to face at Girard's Gate...

[SaintRidley]

Wow, there might have been more high level casters in Girard's Pyramid than we've ever seen gathered together on-screen.

Assuming that the two I listed at at least 4th level Persisted their spells, that's 5 16th level sorcerers, minimum (plus whatever Orrin was - Phantasmagoria might well have been some kind of 9th level spell). Aside from the Order of the Stick, the final iteration of the Linear Guild, and we could probably say the Vector Legion, yeah, this is the first time we've seen quite so high level a group.

[Synesthesy]

But Liches are immune to illusion? I thought that only construct and undead that "don't think" are immune to illusion...
In Skyrim there were a feat to make illusions work with construct, I don't know if in d&d there is something similar.

However, I think that illusions would have worked with both Redcloak and MitD, but not with Xykon. And Xykon would have been enough to win just as easy as he defeated the living Sapphire Guards.

Girard may have been epic, but he's dead now. And I don't think that people who lived all life guarding a gate could become high level.... In oopc Hayley stated that only adventuring was able to make people really high level: she got more levels going on adventure than in all life in thieves guild!
So, I don't think that illusion would have been strong enough to Xykon. Unfortunatly, with undead illusion immune, it is true that "only the honor of a (ghost) paladin is unbreakable" :biggrin:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That was largely a ploy on Redcloak's behalf--he wanted himself and Xykon around to hold off attacks while Gobbotopia got established. He admitted as much after interrogating O-Chul on the roof. As for Xykon making magic items, that would only help if they knew what they were going to face at Girard's Gate...
All right, fair enough. You and orrion have managed to convince me that they wouldn't be that prepared.

Assuming that the two I listed at at least 4th level Persisted their spells, that's 5 16th level sorcerers, minimum (plus whatever Orrin was - Phantasmagoria might well have been some kind of 9th level spell). Aside from the Order of the Stick, the final iteration of the Linear Guild, and we could probably say the Vector Legion, yeah, this is the first time we've seen quite so high level a group.

Huh, that's a higher level than I expected them to be. If they all focused entirely on illusion they might not be as effective, but if several of them weren't so specialized they could put up quite a fight.

[SaintRidley]

But Liches are immune to illusion? I thought that only construct and undead that "don't think" are immune to illusion...

Liches are immune to Mind-Affecting spells because they are undead, many of which are in the Illusion (Patterns, Phantasms) and Enchantment schools. They are not, however, immune to illusions in general. Xykon's immune to the entire Enchantment school, and a good chunk of Illusions.

Among the spells in Core, the following Illusions (listed with their spell level as cast by a Sorcerer) would still be able to fool Xykon (though Xykon would be able to defeat virtually all of them with True Seeing):

Blur (2nd level)
Disguise Self (1st level)
Displacement (3rd level)
False Vision (5th level) (only fools Scrying, though)
Ghost Sound (cantrip)
Hallucinatory Terrain (4th level)
Illusory Wall (4th level)
Invisibility (2nd level)
Greater Invisibility (4th level)
Mass Invisibility (7th level)
Invisibility Sphere (3rd level)
Leomund's Trap (2nd level)
Magic Mouth (2nd level)
Major Image (3rd level)
Minor Image (2nd level)
Mirage Arcana (5th level)
Mirror Image (2nd level)
Misdirection (2nd level)
Mislead (6th level)
Magic Aura (1st level)
Permanent Image (6th level)
Persistent Image (5th level)
Programmed Image (6th level)
Project Image (7th level)
Screen (8th level)
Seeming (5th level)
Shades (9th level)
Shadow Conjuration (4th level)
Greater Shadow Conjuration (7th level)
Shadow Evocation (5th level)
Greater Shadow Evocation (8th level)
Shadow Walk (6th level)
Silence (2nd level Bard and Cleric only)
Silent Image (1st level)
Simulacrum (7th level)
Veil (6th level)
Ventriloquism (1st level)
Zone of Silence (4th level Bard only)

[elros]

It looks like the argument comes down to the following:
Can one epic and one near-epic spellcaster be defeated by a handful of high-level casters supported by a larger number of mid-to-low level casters and traps?
And the apparent answer is the lower level characters can only win if they are optimized against the epic casters.
Sound about right?

[Keltest]

It looks like the argument comes down to the following:
Can one epic and one near-epic spellcaster be defeated by a handful of high-level casters supported by a larger number of mid-to-low level casters and traps?
And the apparent answer is the lower level characters can only win if they are optimized against the epic casters.
Sound about right?


ehh. Yes, and no. The lesser casters have a good chance *if* the epic/near-epic casters do not take preemptive steps to neutralize them. However, Xykon has shown to be capable of that much planning.

[runeghost]

Girard did the arcane Microcrosm.

Otherwise we know that these spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) were on the table.

Which means that Gina was at least a 10th level Sorcerer (Mirage Arcana); Orrin was high enough level to cast Phantasmagoria, whatever that is (homebrew); Sami was at least a 16th level Sorcerer (Screen); Kanta and Venna are at least 16th level Sorcerers (Shifting Paths); Tiran Sr. was at least a 12th level Sorcerer (Illusory Pit); Tiran Gr. (is that a typo for Jr.?) was at least a 4th level Sorcerer (Misdirection), but probably higher (or cast multiple times a day) in order for him to be useful in casting it on the Canyon due to the 1 hour/level duration; Dylan was at least a 10th level Sorcerer (False Vision); and Liana was at least a 4th level Sorcerer (Wall of Gloom), though possibly higher (or having some help) in order for it to be useful in the canyon, since the duration is measured in rounds via persist or some other effect (persist would mean she was at least a 16th level Sorcerer).

Phantasmagoria is a 6th level Illusionist spell (1st ed. Unearthed Arcana, p. 70), which is,
a special form of spectral forces spell which is triggered by some special action. The phantasmagoria typically includes a full visual, audial, olfactory, and touch illusion which involves falling, sliding, or moving rapidly. The effect can be aimed at making the subjects believe that they are so doing or that something else is doing

[Keltest]

Phantasmagoria is a 6th level Illusionist spell (1st ed. Unearthed Arcana, p. 70), which is,

So a sort of weaker version of Girard's rune trap then? One more accessible, but more limited in application (and duration)?

[Darth Paul]

It looks like the argument comes down to the following:
Can one epic and one near-epic spellcaster be defeated by a handful of high-level casters supported by a larger number of mid-to-low level casters and traps?
And the apparent answer is the lower level characters can only win if they are optimized against the epic casters.
Sound about right?

Well... not neccesarily.

For starters, think how very few characters in OotSverse are optimized, including the Epic-level characters. And consider the classic maxim that the defense is almost always the stronger option; 3:1 odds is considered the minimum requirement to win a battle against an enemy in a fortified position. So if Xykon is 21st level at least, and Redcloak is 19th level, then their combined 40 levels are still in trouble against even a few 12th-16th level casters with the advantage of a prepared position. Surprise (teleporting in) would make up for a lot, as would Xykon's immunities, but it would still be a hell of a fight, especially since a number of the spells hiding traps are ones that Xykon is not immune to. Even a Silent Image of a floor on top of the pit trap that caught Vaarsuvius could foil Xykon.

Also, battles are not settled by spell levels alone; how they are employed is just as much more important. Misdirecting the invaders into trapped hallways. Major images of Celestials or powerful monsters for them to waste their damaging spells on. If there are Clerics among Girard's clan (and it would be stupid not to have some, at least a little multiclassing) they can Silence the area to force Xykon and Redcloak to burn high-level slots casting Silent Spells. So many creative little tricks to play.

Think of the Draketooth clan as an adventuring party, and the Xykon/Redcloak team as a boss battle. How many times has your party gone up against monsters you shouldn't be able to defeat, and won?

I think it would at least have been a fair fight. And we all know how Xykon hates those.

[dtilque]

Among the spells in Core, the following Illusions (listed with their spell level as cast by a Sorcerer) would still be able to fool Xykon (though Xykon would be able to defeat virtually all of them with True Seeing):


Xykon does not have True Seeing. If he had, he would have used it to find V when V turned invisible when trying to escape after their battle.

[factotum]

Xykon does not have True Seeing. If he had, he would have used it to find V when V turned invisible when trying to escape after their battle.

That is a very good point: however, we equally know that Redcloak *does* have True Seeing and has been seen casting it on-camera, so it's one he prays for each day.

[Timy]

That is a very good point: however, we equally know that Redcloak *does* have True Seeing and has been seen casting it on-camera, so it's one he prays for each day.

Just my 2 cents :

They took a lot of time gathering information about girard's gate and even if it was a ploy from Redcloack, we know that they learnt that there was big illusions and this kind of thing. And this information was gathered with every magic/psionic/torture available to Redcloack.

And we know for sure that Redcloack his the kind of person to begin a fight geing prepared (see azure city attack with the 3 Xykon ploy).

My guess is that Redcloack had allready cast (extend ?) true seing on at least him and Xykon before teleporting and had at least 2 others prepared.

With that in mind, I don't see how the Draketoothes could have won.

[Keltest]

Just my 2 cents :

They took a lot of time gathering information about girard's gate and even if it was a ploy from Redcloack, we know that they learnt that there was big illusions and this kind of thing. And this information was gathered with every magic/psionic/torture available to Redcloack.

And we know for sure that Redcloack his the kind of person to begin a fight geing prepared (see azure city attack with the 3 Xykon ploy).

My guess is that Redcloack had allready cast (extend ?) true seing on at least him and Xykon before teleporting and had at least 2 others prepared.

With that in mind, I don't see how the Draketoothes could have won.

If he had, his eyes were not glowing in any way like Durkon's did when he was under True Seeing.

[Timy]

If he had, his eyes were not glowing in any way like Durkon's did when he was under True Seeing.

Ok granted.

(And just nitpicking, Durkon's are white because his magic is white otherwise malack true seeing would have given him white eyes and not grey ones. And it is nitpicking because with that said, Redcloack's would have been red)

But it still stands to reason that he would have several true seing handy and would have cast on himself and Xykon at the first opportunity (even with the low op OOTS standard).

[Keltest]

Ok granted.

(And just nitpicking, Durkon's are white because his magic is white otherwise malack true seeing would have given him white eyes and not grey ones. And it is nitpicking because with that said, Redcloack's would have been red)

But it still stands to reason that he would have several true seing handy and would have cast on himself and Xykon at the first opportunity (even with the low op OOTS standard).

It is certainly not out of the question, and whether or not its likely enough to consider it headcannon, its certainly a logical enough spell to prepare when fighting an illusionist of any sort, as evidenced by the fact that even the Order managed to figure that out.

[Timy]

It is certainly not out of the question, and whether or not its likely enough to consider it headcannon, its certainly a logical enough spell to prepare when fighting an illusionist of any sort, as evidenced by the fact that even the Order managed to figure that out.

And my opinion (no being a DnD nerd) is that with both of them under the effect of true seing not counting the MitD they would have had no problem defeating any number of draketooth.

[Synesthesy]

If Xykon has choosen to go to the gate only with Redcloak and MitD, it was because he thougth they could win. We know that he has Serini's diary, so he knows that Girard was an illusionist. Redcloak may have prepared some buff spell to use against illusionist, for example defending MitD from illusion.

The attack power of Xykon plus the strategy and buffes of Redcloack plus MitD, I think they should be enough to defeat a lot of medium level npc, just as Roy Belkar, Haley and Elan haven't got serius problems in defeating Tarquin's army (wich have lots of creatures and warrior, and the Order was wounded from past fights).

[Itrogash]

If there are Clerics among Girard's clan (and it would be stupid not to have some, at least a little multiclassing) they can Silence the area to force Xykon and Redcloak to burn high-level slots casting Silent Spells. So many creative little tricks to play.

Huh, it's actually a very good point. Why would there be only sorcerers in Draketooth family? Not every sorcerer's kid inherits a gift. I'd imagine Draketooth's sending their "less gifted" children to train in other classes, like clerics, rogues or bards (what? it must be really boring to sit for years in an isolated pyramid at the centre of the desert). So yeah, Draketooths would probably have much more tricks up their sleeves other than illusions and enchantments.



That is a very good point: however, we equally know that Redcloak *does* have True Seeing and has been seen casting it on-camera, so it's one he prays for each day.

I thought about that. Xykon never excelled in divinations, so without Redcloak he is rather vulnerable to them. The most logical step would be trying separate this two. I could see Draketooths doing that, with all those trap doors we have seen.

[Kornaki]

Also, remember Xykon's plan was to bring Tsukiko along, followed by "she's dead? Eh, screw it let's go anyway". This is not a man with carefully laid spellcasting plans, since he doesn't care that he just lost half his divine spellcasting ability.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html

Redcloak even casts a bunch of spells (probably from spell slots) on his new Astral fortress immediately before they head to Girard's place (it's possible they take an 8 hour rest, but from how Xykon describes it it doesn't sound like that). I think Xykon would be bitten by his hubris in exactly the same manner as the last gate.

[orrion]

Also, remember Xykon's plan was to bring Tsukiko along, followed by "she's dead? Eh, screw it let's go anyway". This is not a man with carefully laid spellcasting plans, since he doesn't care that he just lost half his divine spellcasting ability.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html

Redcloak even casts a bunch of spells (probably from spell slots) on his new Astral fortress immediately before they head to Girard's place (it's possible they take an 8 hour rest, but from how Xykon describes it it doesn't sound like that). I think Xykon would be bitten by his hubris in exactly the same manner as the last gate.

I think we should at least grant that they're not stupid enough to go after a Gate after spending a bunch of spell slots on something else.

[Kish]

If he took 90 days, Redcloak could probably make a Ring of True Seeing.

(Xykon could too, but it would take him 120 days, because True Seeing is a sixth-level wizard/sorcerer spell and a fifth-level cleric spell.)

It's entirely possible that one or both of them has such a ring.

[factotum]

If either of them had such a ring, Redcloak wouldn't have needed to cast True Seeing in strip #652. Since that strip took place only a few weeks before Team Evil teleported to Girard's Gate, you would have thought they'd already have such a thing by that time.

(Also note that Redcloak's eyes just glow a slightly paler yellow when under the influence of True Seeing, not red or white).

[SaintRidley]

Phantasmagoria is a 6th level Illusionist spell (1st ed. Unearthed Arcana, p. 70), which is,

While good to know, it doesn't tell us too much of anything about it in a 3.5 context. The level could have changed, for instance.

[Hecuba]

Orrin was high enough level to cast Phantasmagoria, whatever that is (homebrew)

In 1st Ed, Phantasmagoria was a 6th level illusionist spell introduced by Gary Gygax in Dragon 66. It was a triggered, trap-oriented illusion. It would make the person believe they were being overrun with a torrent of water or falling into a bottomless pit, etc.

Effectively, a fairly straightforward will-save-or-loose illusion.

I would take the scaling from edition to edition with a grain of salt, but most of the other comparable illusions have analogs of at least similar level in 3.5 (mirage arcane was 6, but mirage arcana is 5). Not close enough for an exact answer, but possibly gives an idea of the neighborhood.

[runeghost]

So a sort of weaker version of Girard's rune trap then? One more accessible, but more limited in application (and duration)?

Yeah, very limited - basically forces the victims to think they're in some sort of fast-moving and presumably potentially dangerous situation. I've always though it was targeted more at PCs than for PCs. "Omg! You're all in a giant pit trap, plunging into darkness!" Forcing them to waste spells/charges/etc. I don't have the book here at work, but I think the duration was measured in rounds, 4+1/level or something, but I wasn't clear if that was how long it would last, or if you cast it in advance and that would be the duration after it was triggered. (The latter was what I think the description implied.)

[runeghost]

While good to know, it doesn't tell us too much of anything about it in a 3.5 context. The level could have changed, for instance.

Tough to say for sure on the level-change. Illusionists only had 7 levels of spell in 1st ed, but otoh, it's not super-powerful - the victims got a save, for example. Which makes me wonder, is it supposed to be a "save to see if the illusion affects you" or more of a "you get to try and save once you try to disbelieve"? I would have ruled the latter, because the former makes it pretty useless...

[Keltest]

Tough to say for sure on the level-change. Illusionists only had 7 levels of spell in 1st ed, but otoh, it's not super-powerful - the victims got a save, for example. Which makes me wonder, is it supposed to be a "save to see if the illusion affects you" or more of a "you get to try and save once you try to disbelieve"? I would have ruled the latter, because the former makes it pretty useless...

useless, maybe, but if my party is anything to judge by, PC habitually disbelieve everything from the iron door in their way, to the red dragon attacking them, to the stubbed toe they get kicking a rock. Saves in first edition were non-trivial as well. You couldn't do much besides level to build them.

And its not like 3.5 doesn't have a bunch of "save or die" spells.

[Snails]

I would expect Xykon and Redcloak to be able to wear the Draketooths down.

The key to beating Team Evil is to separate Redcloak from Xykon, and keep Xykon busy for a few rounds. It might be possible to accomplish as much with traps.

Alone Redcloak can easily be killed by volleys of Sneak Attacks. If fighting in an AMF, Redcloak is just a helpless bag of hit points, with an AC low levels rogues can beat. (It is theoretically possible that the Crimson Mantle could help him.)

Without Redcloak on hand to help, Xykon is vulnerable to invisible things and illusions.

[orrion]

I would expect Xykon and Redcloak to be able to wear the Draketooths down.

The key to beating Team Evil is to separate Redcloak from Xykon, and keep Xykon busy for a few rounds. It might be possible to accomplish as much with traps.

Alone Redcloak can easily be killed by volleys of Sneak Attacks. If fighting in an AMF, Redcloak is just a helpless bag of hit points, with an AC low levels rogues can beat. (It is theoretically possible that the Crimson Mantle could help him.)

Without Redcloak on hand to help, Xykon is vulnerable to invisible things and illusions.

Well.. anyone in the AMF with Redcloak is just as helpless a bag of hit points, and at least Redcloak's summons can be outside of it. I'm not sure AMF fits the Draketooth's style anyway. Judging by all those corridors and traps, they would be hiding behind walls, reinforcing, recasting, and planning illusions. They wouldn't be out in the front getting within 10 feet of Redcloak or Xykon.

Xykon managed to pinpoint V while he was invisible, and that was with V trying to be quiet. Anyone waltzing around will be easily targeted, and Xykon has plenty of AoE to cover those small corridors. He could have an answer to illusions - have we ever seen him encounter any?

[factotum]

useless, maybe, but if my party is anything to judge by, PC habitually disbelieve everything from the iron door in their way, to the red dragon attacking them, to the stubbed toe they get kicking a rock.

Sounds like they're metagaming to heck if that's the case, and I would hope the DM has a really nasty surprise waiting for them at some point... :smalltongue:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Xykon managed to pinpoint V while he was invisible, and that was with V trying to be quiet. Anyone waltzing around will be easily targeted, and Xykon has plenty of AoE to cover those small corridors. He could have an answer to illusions - have we ever seen him encounter any?

I don't think we have. Vaarsuvius certainly didn't fight him with any, and I don't think Dorukan did either. He might be able to dispel most of them.

[Keltest]

Sounds like they're metagaming to heck if that's the case, and I would hope the DM has a really nasty surprise waiting for them at some point... :smalltongue:

I do. The red dragon is real.

[StLordeth]

My first assumption is yes... very much so. This gate was not well defended against Xykon specifically.

[The Extinguisher]

I do. The red dragon is real.

"Okay, you successfully disbelieve in the Dragon. The Dragon, being very much real however, attacks you while you twiddle your thumbs and pretend it doesn't exist."

[Keltest]

"Okay, you successfully disbelieve in the Dragon. The Dragon, being very much real however, attacks you while you twiddle your thumbs and pretend it doesn't exist."

pretty much.

[SaintRidley]

"Okay, you successfully disbelieve in the Dragon. The Dragon, being very much real however, attacks you while you twiddle your thumbs and pretend it doesn't exist."


Or Shadowcraft (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1065756) shenanigans. "You successfully disbelieve in the dragon. The dragon, being composed of magical shadow, however, doesn't care and attacks. By the way, its claws are extra sharp because it's not real. Also, the fire burns hotter than real fire."

[Kish]

Sounds like they're metagaming to heck if that's the case, and I would hope the DM has a really nasty surprise waiting for them at some point... :smalltongue:

http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=54

(...why are we talking about old, obsolete editions and their Unbelievably Stupid Rules*?)

*If you didn't follow my link, or just stopped at that page, the DM in that comic calls the 2ed "you can attempt to disbelieve anything as a free action, if you're right it will dispel the illusion, if you're wrong there's no penalty for having tried" thing the Unbelievably Stupid Rule.

[Snails]

My first assumption is yes... very much so. This gate was not well defended against Xykon specifically.

If properly manned by Clan Draketooth, the defenses would have been quite effective against the Order or an small army of bloodthirsty paladins.

Unless Girard could employ permanent epic illusions that would make the pyramid incredibly difficult to find, illusions are "medium level thinking". They just do not work against an opponent that can plausibly bring multiple castings per day of True Seeing and Mind Blank like a high level party can.