help with a complex character idea

[relytdan]

What I would like to have for a character is one who can have some form of "alternate form"
so that it can change into a 26+hd Dire Tiger

Polymorph Sor/Wiz 4: cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice, (to a maximum of 15 HD)
Polymorph Any Object Sor/Wiz 8: grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form & Wisdom, Charisma, (to a maximum of 15 HD)
Draconic Polymorph Sor/Wiz 5: Strength is the average for the creature +8, and your Constitution is the average for the creature +2, (to a maximum of 20 HD)
Shapechange Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9: cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice, (to a maximum of 25 HD)

is there anything like the above spells, "alternate form", "wild shape" or race that can get into an animal form of 26+ hit dice? within a normal 20 level character span.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, there's the unerrata'd Weretouched Master in ECS...

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, there's the unerrata'd Weretouched Master in ECS...

Which is a pretty cool class in high-op environments, but I have personal experience that it can be totally unhinged in lower op games.

On the other hand, the erratas (I do believe it was done twice), nerf it way, way down.

The original can get you most of the benefits of lycanthrope in five levels, among a few other things. Very good, although not designed to tack onto a full caster, from what I recall. More of a ranger-type thing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think you mean the Legendary Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/legendaryAnimal.htm), the Dire Tiger is only 16 HD.

Druid 15, you can Wild Shape into tiny to huge animals. Combine with Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) for +1 LA, which gets Wild Shape as a Druid 11 (limited form selection), should add +11 levels to effective Druid level for what HD of creature you can Wild Shape into. This allows you to Wild Shape into 26 HD forms at ECL 16 (15 with LA buyoff).

An alternative would be to use Lycanthrope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) to make a Were-Legendary-Tiger, but with its racial HD that would be ECL 30 with only one class level.

[Diarmuid]

I dont see anything in that WotC article that would lend itself to being read as "adds 11 levels to existing druid wild shape effective level".

[icefractal]

I dont see anything in that WotC article that would lend itself to being read as "adds 11 levels to existing druid wild shape effective level".I guess it would be the same logic that adding more Sorcerer levels onto something that "casts as an X level Sorcerer" stacks. Reasonable, but not definitive.

Another option, although it cuts things much closer, is Divine Minion + PrCs that increase Wild Shape level. Should still be doable by 20th level, I think.

[Phelix-Mu]

I guess it would be the same logic that adding more Sorcerer levels onto something that "casts as an X level Sorcerer" stacks. Reasonable, but not definitive.

Another option, although it cuts things much closer, is Divine Minion + PrCs that increase Wild Shape level. Should still be doable by 20th level, I think.

Do we have a list of these PrCs that increase Wild Shape? There aren't many.

MoMF and Moonspeaker are the only two that pop to mind, though I am awfully rusty. Does Defender of Nature or w/e it was grant it? I thought that had like WS-lite.

Hmmm. Perhaps Daggerspell Shaper?

The real, deep, and profound question is why did WotC call it Fast Wild Shape? Are they aware of the rather murky nature of their rules regarding naming conventions?

[WhamBamSam]

The Reserves of Strength feat from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting lets you break the CL caps on things, which would allow you to polymorph into anything with HD up to your CL. It can also increase your CL by up to 3, though doing so dazes you for that many rounds.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Reserves of Strength feat from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting lets you break the CL caps on things, which would allow you to polymorph into anything with HD up to your CL. It can also increase your CL by up to 3, though doing so dazes you for that many rounds.

Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 5, use circle magic to get a caster level of 40th, use Reserves of Strength to Polymorph into a creature of up to 40 HD. You can even pick up Incantatrix or Spelldancer to add Persistent Spell to Draconic Polymorph so it lasts all day.

[RolandDeschain]

Do we have a list of these PrCs that increase Wild Shape? There aren't many.

MoMF and Moonspeaker are the only two that pop to mind, though I am awfully rusty. Does Defender of Nature or w/e it was grant it? I thought that had like WS-lite.

Hmmm. Perhaps Daggerspell Shaper?

The real, deep, and profound question is why did WotC call it Fast Wild Shape? Are they aware of the rather murky nature of their rules regarding naming conventions?

I think Nature's Warrior does and there's also a Goliath Druid PrC from Races of Stone that does as well...I think

[Ettina]

What if you were a sorceror or wizard of a race that already had 26hd? Or would that be too overpowered?

[relytdan]

Why these do not work.

Druid
Wild Shape (Su): ability functions like the Alternate Form special ability (MM p305) This ability works much like the polymorph spell
Wild shape (Large): The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level
while this reaches the minimum of the Dire tiger 16HD upto 20HD, and I am really looking for a 26+hd dire tiger

Weretouched Master (unEratta & Errata)
Alternate Form (Su): At 5th level - can transform into animal form as if using the polymorph spell on self
does not reach the minimum of the Dire tiger 16HD and I am really looking for a 26+hd dire tiger form

Mulhorandi Divine Minion (Template)
Fast Wild Shape (Su): wild shape as an 11th-level druid
However the forms presented by the template do not allow for the Dire Tiger at all.
wild shape as an 11th-level druid This does not make it a druid with the wild shape ability
It does not grant the actual wild shape (large) ability & Dire Tiger is not offered by the template itself>

Lycanthrope (Template)
Were-Tiger
Alternate Form (Su): A weretiger can assume a bipedal hybrid form or the form of a tiger
if the Dire tiger was used as its animal portion the 16HD +2 (afflicted) level adjustment, leaves only 2 class levels and again really looking for a 26+hd dire tiger

Of the many races that do allow change to animal form either do no allow for the dire tiger form OR do not reach the 26+hd dire tiger form that I am looking for

Polymorph Sor/Wiz 4: cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice, (to a maximum of 15 HD)
does not reach the minimum of the Dire tiger 16HD again really looking for a 26+hd dire tiger

Polymorph Any Objt Sor/Wiz 8: grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form & Wisdom, Charisma, (to a maximum of 15 HD)
does not reach the minimum of the Dire tiger 16HD again really looking for a 26+hd dire tiger

Draconic Polymorph Sor/Wiz 5: Strength is the average for the creature +8, and your Constitution is the average for the creature +2, (to a maximum of 20 HD)
one argument is it the short description it says: You change into a dragon’s form, thus no animal forms
<Otherwise this reaches the minimum of the Dire tiger 16HD upto 20HD, again really looking for a 26+hd dire tiger>

Shapechange Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9: cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice, (to a maximum of 25 HD)
while this reaches the minimum of the Dire tiger 16HD upto 20HD, again really looking for a 26+hd dire tiger

As a normal 20 level character would only have a max 20 Caster Level, unless there is some way to get the caster level over 20?
(Practiced Spellcaster: This benefit can’t increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice
various other feats and items that give +X to caster levels are only affecting the spells that are cast and not the casters actual caster level
Bead of karma: Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level)

So I am asking is there anyway to get a normal 20 level character changed into a 26+HD Dire Tiger form? or is this stuck at 20HD?

*Note I will look at wizard5/red wizard 5 , circle magic, Reserves of Strength feat as well as Nature's Warrior & Goliath Druid PrC

[Extra Anchovies]

If I may ask. Why do you need to be a 26 HD dire tiger?

Also, be a level 17+ psion (telepath), get hold of a 26 HD dire tiger, and True Mind Switch it. Get some way to polymorph back into your original race when the need arises.

[relytdan]

you may ask - seems I forgot this part in the initial portion - the Complexness...

Ok I don't know if anyone here has seen the movie (Ladyhawke 1985) but I want to make a character that transforms into a dire tiger (versus wolf) and a 2nd that will change into a winged creature- the winged is done via druid - I don't want 2 druids... so there it is

[Phelix-Mu]

you may ask - seems I forgot this part in the initial portion - the Complexness...

Ok I don't know if anyone here has seen the movie (Ladyhawke 1985) but I want to make a character that transforms into a dire tiger (versus wolf) and a 2nd that will change into a winged creature- the winged is done via druid - I don't want 2 druids... so there it is

There are dire tigers with less than 26 HD, though. The basic one, as noted, caps at 16, IIRC.

[Extra Anchovies]

There are dire tigers with less than 26 HD, though. The basic one, as noted, caps at 16, IIRC.

True. 26 HD is a weird, weird cutoff point. It's the same size category, and if you're shapechanging into it, its HD don't matter too much. You keep your own attacks and HP, the main change is ability scores and natural attacks.

[bekeleven]

Druid 20 with 5 bloodline levels and trappings of the beast (magic items from Complete Chamption) can wild shape into 26 HD forms with an ECL of 20.

[Phelix-Mu]

Also, I'm not sure the aforementioned Legendary Tiger is actually bigger than a normal tiger. They are supposed to be exceptional, normal-sized specimens of normal animal species, like natural guardians or exemplars of their animal type. Not quite the same flavor as dire animals.

[relytdan]

well the
Legendary Tiger is EPIC levels thus out and yes Dire Tiger base is 16hd and Advancement: 17–32 HD (Large); the reasons for 26 hd is the "Ladyhawke" character who is a druid will have an animal companion as a druid can have a Dire Tiger at 16th level, she would aquire the tiger at 17th, this nets the animal companion bonus +10HD - which brings us to the Odd 26+HD requirement of the Dire Tiger

[Extra Anchovies]

A character can't be the animal companion of another character, actually. Also, a polymorphed/wildshaping/etc character retains their own creature type (usually humanoid). And if they're a humanoid they cannot be an animal companion at all, regardless of whether they're a PC or not.

BUT if the non-druid is a psion (telepath) of level 17+, then the druid gets a dire tiger companion, and then the telepath True Mind Switches with the tiger after it gets the 10 bonus HD. Then polymorph the tiger into a human whenever you need the tiger to be a human.

[bekeleven]

Also, a polymorphed/wildshaping/etc character retains their own creature type (usually humanoid). And if they're a humanoid they cannot be an animal companion at all, regardless of whether they're a PC or not.
True for wild shape.

The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

well the
Legendary Tiger is EPIC levels thus out...

A Legendary Tiger is CR 10, not epic at all, and a complete pushover for epic level characters. It was originally printed in Monster Manual II, the SRD link is just updated to 3.5 edition.

[Urpriest]

well the
Legendary Tiger is EPIC levels thus out and yes Dire Tiger base is 16hd and Advancement: 17–32 HD (Large); the reasons for 26 hd is the "Ladyhawke" character who is a druid will have an animal companion as a druid can have a Dire Tiger at 16th level, she would aquire the tiger at 17th, this nets the animal companion bonus +10HD - which brings us to the Odd 26+HD requirement of the Dire Tiger

The animal companion isn't actually a 26HD Dire Tiger, then, it's a normal Dire Tiger with 10 bonus animal companion HD. And no, you can't make a character with animal companion HD or other animal companion benefits.

If you want to make a Ladyhawke type of character, my suggestion is to make two characters, or make a character with a cohort. If both have shape-changing abilities you can achieve the same "one is an animal by day, the other by night" thing. Nothing in the concept requires either to be the animal companion of the other, and trying to do that actively hurts the concept by inspiring you to ask for terrible things like ways to increase your HD, which are generally the province of mega-cheese.

A way to "cheat" if Leadership is banned and you can't get another player to cooperate would be to have a Changeling with the Morphic Familiar ability. By day, it's a man and a hawk, by night it's a woman and a winter wolf or the like. The other players won't know who is really which. :smallwink: