Fighter: Dueling Style and Shield

[DontEatRawHagis]

So a player of mine saw an FAQ that revealed having a shield does not negate the +2 DMG from Dueling feature of Fighter.

He argued that this means he can shield bash with +2 DMG.

I was saying a shield bash is an improvised attack so he won't get the bonus. (He doesn't have shield mastery).

What do you guys think?

[BRC]

How is Dueling worded again?

If it's something like "if you are wielding a one-handed melee weapon in one hand, and no weapon in your other hand, you get +2 damage on melee attacks", then yes. It's a little cheesy, but hardly broken (He's giving up his attack with the sword to make an improvised shield bash).

If it specifies "You get +2 damage on melee attacks with that weapon", that's a different story.

[Symphony]

If you are using your shield as a melee weapon, would you really be wielding only a single melee weapon?

Dueling Style works with a shield under the assumption that the shield is not a weapon. Using it as a weapon should disqualify you from benefiting from the style.

But I don't have the PHB at hand, so I'm not sure of the exact wording of the Dueling Style option (nor the rules on improvised weapons).

[hymer]

Is there such a thing as shield bashing if you're not a Shield Master? And doesn't that bash shove rather than deal damage?

[Sartharina]

Is there such a thing as shield bashing if you're not a Shield Master? And doesn't that bash shove rather than deal damage?It's an improvised attack with an improvised weapon - at which point Dueling shuts off, because you have a weapon in each hand.

[Person_Man]

How is Dueling worded again?

"Dueling: When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon."

[hymer]

It's an improvised attack with an improvised weapon - at which point Dueling shuts off, because you have a weapon in each hand.

Good point. And since you can't dual wield non-light weapons without the feat, this makes shield bashing an even more sub-standard choice under most circumstances.

[DrLemniscate]

Even if you can't shield bash, Dueling is still a good Fighting Style. Also, why would you want to Shield Bash for less damage? Shield Master feat used to provide a route for effective Shield Bashing, but alas.

Dueling gets better than Two-Weapon fighting as you gain extra attacks (better damage by 2nd extra attack, using a Rapier), it also lets you save your bonus action for another use (such as shoving from Shield Master). It approaches the damage of Two-Weapon Fighting with the Dual Wielder feat, getting very close by your 3rd extra attack and exceeding it if you use Action Surges.

[HorridElemental]

I think the idea would be to take the tavern brawler feat and shield master.

Then you can set up a pseudo captain america.

When you attack with your shield (no weapon in your other hand) you deal +2 damage. You get the +2 AC at all times. And you can shove when you want.

Pick up cross bow master if you want to use a hand cross bow and a shield (I'm ignoring the loading argument people have, just keep a few on you or make a repeating hand crossbow.

Edit: Shield can be a thrown improvised weapon ;)

[DrLemniscate]

I think the idea would be to take the tavern brawler feat and shield master.

Then you can set up a pseudo captain america.

When you attack with your shield (no weapon in your other hand) you deal +2 damage. You get the +2 AC at all times. And you can shove when you want.

Pick up cross bow master if you want to use a hand cross bow and a shield (I'm ignoring the loading argument people have, just keep a few on you or make a repeating hand crossbow.

Edit: Shield can be a thrown improvised weapon ;)

That's exactly what I would like to do, but there just isn't enough support for it.

Pathfinder has an excellent setup for it, with spiked shields, gauntlets, and armor (Brawler Archetype). Whip out a Swordbreaker dagger when needed.

Only Monks have decent unarmed damage, and they lose it if they equip a shield.

So I am going for the Sword & Board fighter; halfway between a meat shield and a full on Fighter. Making up the difference by being loaded with utility, feats, and combat maneuvers. Representing your agility and flexibility with a Barbarian level for Unarmored Defense, and Dueling with your Rapier. Funny how a level in Barbarian means you can get a higher AC than you ever could as a straight Fighter in Full Plate (22 AC vs 21AC), barring any magical armor of course.

Some of the Heavy Armor says it comes with Gauntlets, so you could always try to house rule them as 1d4 damage (since that's what they are in some other games).

[HorridElemental]

That's exactly what I would like to do, but there just isn't enough support for it.

Pathfinder has an excellent setup for it, with spiked shields, gauntlets, and armor (Brawler Archetype). Whip out a Swordbreaker dagger when needed.

Only Monks have decent unarmed damage, and they lose it if they equip a shield.

So I am going for the Sword & Board fighter; halfway between a meat shield and a full on Fighter. Making up the difference by being loaded with utility, feats, and combat maneuvers.

Some of the Heavy Armor says it comes with Gauntlets, so you could always try to house rule them as 1d4 damage (since that's what they are in some other games).

Actually with tavern brawler and a half way non-asshat DM we have most of what we need for ole Cap.

Being proficiency with improvised weapons would allow for the throwing AMD attacking with the shield. I believe the DM decides on the damage but for most 1 handed weapons I don't think 1d4 or 1d6 would be broken or anything. You took a feat for this after all. Spikes would change the damage type and not the damage die.

You are proficient with thrown improvised weapons (Str to attack and damage).

The only thing you would need is a shield of returning. Or a homebrew battle master maneuver...

Ricochet

When you throw a weapon (including improvised weapons) you may allow it to ricochet up to a number of feet equal to (2 x Attack Ability Score). Roll a maneuver dice and add it to the damage.

This weapon returns back to you and doesn't get an attack roll versus another creature.

You may move after throwing the weapon to catch the weapon in a new spot.

(I need to add this to my battle master fix and change it to not be on par with the WotC maneuvers).

[Kerilstrasz]

What i 'd do as DM..

Allow him to get the +2 while attacking with shield

BUT

i would hold him by TWF restrictions if he wants to attack with both weapon & shield in a single round ( no light weapon in offhand ).

so .. ok.. get the +2 with shield attacks, but you can only attack with either shield or your weapon in a single round.

[rlc]

if he's a duelist, then his shield bash can deal 2 damage on top of the normal (as in, non-duelist) damage for the normal weapon so that it's basically just refluffing it to pretend you care about what he's saying. if he's not, then what everyone else said.

[Totema]

Am I missing something, or is shield bashing even in the rules as a combat option? I see the shoving feature that Shield Master allows you to do, but nothing about making an attack with your shield.

[DrLemniscate]

Am I missing something, or is shield bashing even in the rules as a combat option? I see the shoving feature that Shield Master allows you to do, but nothing about making an attack with your shield.

Treat it as an improvised weapon. Then it's up to the DM how much it does (minimum of 1d4, possible 1d6).

[Totema]

Treat it as an improvised weapon. Then it's up to the DM how much it does (minimum of 1d4, possible 1d6).

Yeah, I'm still stuck in 3.5-esque "if there's no rules for it, you can't do it" thinking. :smalltongue: In this case, I would rule to take away the Duelist bonus for every turn that the fighter chooses to use his shield as an off-hand weapon.

[DrLemniscate]

Yeah, I'm still stuck in 3.5-esque "if there's no rules for it, you can't do it" thinking. :smalltongue: In this case, I would rule to take away the Duelist bonus for every turn that the fighter chooses to use his shield as an off-hand weapon.

Definitely. You could even treat it as TWF so he has some feats and fighting styles to build towards if he really wants to be a shield basher.

[Soular]

Funny how a level in Barbarian means you can get a higher AC than you ever could as a straight Fighter in Full Plate (22 AC vs 21AC), barring any magical armor of course.

You would be trading potentially quite a bit of versatility for this. Assuming you don't roll ridiculously high starting stats, it may be awhile before you hit 20 in both DEX and CON. Meanwhile the vanilla fighter can pick some plate mail up as soon as he scores the funds to do so. So all things being equal, he should have a higher AC while leveling than the FighterX/Barb1.

Also, by focusing on a DEX/CON build instead of STR/CON, you are gimping the choice of weapons he will prefer while leveling. Sure his rapier is the equal to a longsword in damage now, but what about when the party finds a +1 battle ax? The vanilla fighter can use any one handed weapon, but the DEX fighter is far more limited. How often do you expect to stumble across magical rapiers?

My party has encountered skeletons. So my fighter may decide to buy a flail when next in town now that he knows that they are vulnerable to blunt damage. And he will be every bit as effective with that weapon as he is with his longsword.

[HorridElemental]

Can I just say how awesome it is that they got rid of, for the most part, the problem with finding weapons you didn't specialize in.

Now that the bonuses come from style and not specific weapon picking up random weapon loot isn't as troublesome as before.

And with the way the core rules are made, you can work outside your style and still be effective and useful.

[DrLemniscate]

Can I just say how awesome it is that they got rid of, for the most part, the problem with finding weapons you didn't specialize in.

Now that the bonuses come from style and not specific weapon picking up random weapon loot isn't as troublesome as before.

And with the way the core rules are made, you can work outside your style and still be effective and useful.

I still hope to find some other reasonable 1d8 Finesse weapon. Dueling with a Rapier and Shield feels a little awkward.

[MeeposFire]

I still hope to find some other reasonable 1d8 Finesse weapon. Dueling with a Rapier and Shield feels a little awkward.

Why is that a buckler is a type of shield and is a common trope with fencing style weapons. Seems a nice fit to me.

[SiuiS]

It's an improvised attack with an improvised weapon - at which point Dueling shuts off, because you have a weapon in each hand.

Pretty much.

I would be amenable to allowing the character to make one attack (basically consider the sword no longer 'equipped') for a round, if for some reason they wanted to shield bash INSTEAD of using the sword, but they cannot under any circumstances use a sword and shield as weapons simultaneously.

[MeeposFire]

Honestly I don't think we should count improvised weapons and the sort as weapons for this ability. For one are we going to say that you lose duelist if you were to punch somebody while stabbing with your rapier? You always have those back up weapons and I think the ability says wield rather than "attack with" so with this reasoning you would always lose your bonus because you are always wielding another weapon even if you don't decide to use it.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Honestly I don't think we should count improvised weapons and the sort as weapons for this ability. For one are we going to say that you lose duelist if you were to punch somebody while stabbing with your rapier? You always have those back up weapons and I think the ability says wield rather than "attack with" so with this reasoning you would always lose your bonus because you are always wielding another weapon even if you don't decide to use it.

And unarmed strike is a weapon, its right on the chart. However because its not actually a light melee weapon you cannot in fact use it for TWF without Dual Wielder so you cannot in fact punch someone and stab them with your rapier.

If this seems odd to you chock it up to the abstraction that an attack doesn't represent one swing, and that using a weapon with good form to be effective prevents good ol' fisticuffs. Which is honestly probably closer to reality, not that that matters terribly but yeah... I get why. Don't bring a fist to a swordfight folks.

Unless you're a monk of course.

[MeeposFire]

And unarmed strike is a weapon, its right on the chart. However because its not actually a light melee weapon you cannot in fact use it for TWF without Dual Wielder so you cannot in fact punch someone and stab them with your rapier.

If this seems odd to you chock it up to the abstraction that an attack doesn't represent one swing, and that using a weapon with good form to be effective prevents good ol' fisticuffs. Which is honestly probably closer to reality, not that that matters terribly but yeah... I get why. Don't bring a fist to a swordfight folks.

Unless you're a monk of course.

I actually knew that but that really isn't important since if you have the feat you can and it really is the concept not the little, in this case, unimportant details.

[HorridElemental]

I still hope to find some other reasonable 1d8 Finesse weapon. Dueling with a Rapier and Shield feels a little awkward.

This actually happened, forgot who linked it but in another thread it was pointed out that shield n rapier worked very well.

Just refluff the rapier.


Honestly I don't think we should count improvised weapons and the sort as weapons for this ability. For one are we going to say that you lose duelist if you were to punch somebody while stabbing with your rapier? You always have those back up weapons and I think the ability says wield rather than "attack with" so with this reasoning you would always lose your bonus because you are always wielding another weapon even if you don't decide to use it.

It isn't that the shield should or should not be an improvised weapon but as of now it is an improvised weapon.

I think fighters and barbarians should automatically be proficient with improvised weapons.

[Vintrastorm]

Just refluff the rapier.



Or refluff the shield into a parrying dagger or something like that.

[Cambrian]

Pretty much.

I would be amenable to allowing the character to make one attack (basically consider the sword no longer 'equipped') for a round, if for some reason they wanted to shield bash INSTEAD of using the sword, but they cannot under any circumstances use a sword and shield as weapons simultaneously.Someone mentioned skeletons earlier, so the bludgeoning damage of the shield could easily be better than the weapon in the main hand in that situation. Perhaps a character that finds a magical shield before a magical weapon could also use it to get around resistance as well (treating it as a magical weapon again seems reasonable).

Some people are worried by the magical classes trumping the mundane again in 5th. I want to see if the increased physicality of the mundane characters, in conjunction with the more free form system, allows them a large amount of freedom in actions so long as the player uses their imagination and has a DM willing to cooperate with their creativity. I see the improvised weapon shield bash as an example of that sort of freedom.

[Abithrios]

"Dueling: When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon."

This is actually unambiguous (as far as I can tell). Either it is a weapon, in which case you do not get the +2 at all while wielding it and (for example) a sword OR the shield does not count as a weapon and you do not get +2 with it regardless of if you can hit someone with it. In the latter case, you would get the bonus on your sword even if you hit someone with your not-a-weapon shield.

[pribnow]

"Dueling: When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon"
I read the second part as "and [you are wielding] no other weapons". So as long as you wield your shield for defense and don't wield it as a weapon, you would get the +2 bonus to damage rolls.

As to the OP, is your player intending on dropping his weapon before making the shield bash? Because in that case, I would allow the +2 dmg since the shield is the only weapon he wields.

[Mr.Moron]

I see no harm in allowing it to apply to shield bashes or whatever. I figure so long as it's a 1-handed weapon and it's the only thing they're making attacks with that round they should be a go.

+2 damage on attacks, that aren't two-handed, you're not making attacks with other weapons this round. That seems to be about the important thrust of it.

I'm not sure trying to dig the RAW for specifics is going to bear much meaningful fruit this edition.