Minimum Ability scores?

[Socko525]

Away from my books at the moment, but I can't recall...for the DM that makes a group roll for stats, is there a minimum ability score amount? i.e. your stats are too low, please roll again.

If memory serves in 3/3.5 there was a if your ability modifiers 0 or lower or if your highest score is 13.

I hadn't planned on rolling stats initially, but a friend and I were going back and forth in roll20 and getting some spectacular scores. Although as I'm sure luck would have it, when it was supposed to count I'd tank all the rolls and I don't remember seeing any rule to protect against it.

Thanks!

[LaserFace]

My group does 4d6drop1. I don't have a hard-and-fast rule for rerolls, but typically if people roll poorer than elite array, I let them take the elite array or roll again (but typically they have to choose between these sets). Otherwise, they may end up significantly weaker than the rest of the party, since this method typically gives very strong sets.

[hymer]

The PHB mentions no safety net.

[DrLemniscate]

Point Buy is the standard way for choosing starting scores. The rolling option is really just included for posterity.

If you do roll, you could treat 8 as a minimum score.

And yes, rolling is going to usually get you better scores than point buying. It's even statistically better. Point Buy is being pushed in this edition for consistency. It lets you take your character with you to different DM's, especially for Encounters.

[CyberThread]

I say take a risk. If you roll and you end up with an 8 or 6 tough ****. I offered a good hoNest stat creation. You wanted to gamble for better and lost.

[Shadow]

Actually, the opposite is true in print.
Point Buy is the norm at our table, because it keeps characters at an even keel out of the gate, but PB is the variant rule, not the standard option.

[MustacheFart]

At my table we roll 4d6 drop the lowest, reroll 1s. We do that 7 times and drop the lowest total for six stats. Needlesstosay, my character has pretty good stats.

[cobaltstarfire]

And yes, rolling is going to usually get you better scores than point buying. It's even statistically better. Point Buy is being pushed in this edition for consistency. It lets you take your character with you to different DM's, especially for Encounters.

Just to add to this if you're planning to participate in organized play (encounters/expeditions/epics), you're only allowed to use point buy, or the standard array (15,14,13,12,10,8). If you roll, your character won't be considered usable at other events and you'll have to use a pregen.

[Mr.Moron]

No minimum score in the rules. I think it'd probably fair to let people re-roll if they had 3 or more stats below 10 and/or no stats at least a 15... before modifiers.

I've really settled on just having folks use the standard array though. It's clean, quick, fair and predictable.

[DrLemniscate]

Just to add to this if you're planning to participate in organized play (encounters/expeditions/epics), you're only allowed to use point buy, or the standard array (15,14,13,12,10,8). If you roll, your character won't be considered usable at other events and you'll have to use a pregen.

I was building my first 5e character (and my first D&D character in general), and rolled up some stats in front of my DM.

I wasn't aware of the point buy being required for the organized play, but the DM said it was fine since I rolled in front of him.

I managed to roll pretty good (17, 16, 15, 10, 10, 9), but I've been thinking of taking the cut in switching to point buy stats (probably 15, 15, 11, 10, 10, 10 ) so I can take him to other events if needed.

[ambartanen]

My group does 4d6drop1.

I've seen several people on the forum mention they've made characters this way and I strongly believe it is the wrong way to go about it. The main problem I have with it is that it tends to produce characters that are much stronger than point-buy/what the system assumes. It's kind of like making 40-point-buy characters in 3e. There is also a non-negligible chance to get less than 8 in some stats although that's a much more serious concern for 3d6-style character creation.

So here's the method I came up with for rolling stats. It's a bit complicated but makes diverse yet balanced characters with stats in the 8 to 15 range. I was playing around and made 8 random characters with this method over the last few days and so far it works pretty well. Tomorrow I am actually going to start DMing and see what my players think of it.

Step 1: Roll 2d4h1-2 six times. This gives you six results in the -1 to +2 range with this distribution (http://anydice.com/program/458e). You can probably guess these are the modifiers.
Step 2: If there is no +2 in you roll, reroll everything (or lowest). There's only a 3.2% chance of this happening so it should be pretty rare.
Step 3: Sum all six values. If total is less than two (quite unlikely) reroll. If total is less than eight, write down the difference.
Step 4: Convert modifiers to stats where

-1 8
0 10
+1 12
+2 14
Step 5: If your total from step 3 was less than 8, you get to bump that many stats by one point. So someone with 14/10/10/10/10/10 has to turn their stats into 15/11/11/11/11/11 while someone with 14/14/12/12/12/10 gets to bump one of their stats by one point.
Step 6: Apply racial modifiers.
Optional: Keep stats in the order you rolled them in. I made two four-person parties using this method and they all seemed quite viable and balanced. One did end up not having anyone with more than 12 strength which was a little strange but it just had a dex-based frontliner.

Edit:

At my table we roll 4d6 drop the lowest, reroll 1s. We do that 7 times and drop the lowest total for six stats. Needlesstosay, my character has pretty good stats.
Now that is just ridiculous. Any stat over 15 before racial modifiers seriously messes with the basic assumptions of the system and I saw in one of the other thread you had three such scores and a 15. Your character will get three attrubutes at 20 and grab two feats to boot which means that most of the time you'll be about as powerful as a character about two levels higher than you made by the normal method*.

*This is a really ballpark estimate.

[pwykersotz]

I've seen several people on the forum mention they've made characters this way and I strongly believe it is the wrong way to go about it. The main problem I have with it is that it tends to produce characters that are much stronger than point-buy/what the system assumes. It's kind of like making 40-point-buy characters in 3e. There is also a non-negligible chance to get less than 8 in some stats although that's a much more serious concern for 3d6-style character creation.

So here's the method I came up with for rolling stats. It's a bit complicated but makes diverse yet balanced characters with stats in the 8 to 15 range. I was playing around and made 8 random characters with this method over the last few days and so far it works pretty well. Tomorrow I am actually going to start DMing and see what my players think of it.

Step 1: Roll 2d4h1-2 six times. This gives you six results in the -1 to +2 range with this distribution (http://anydice.com/program/458e). You can probably guess these are the modifiers.
Step 2: If there is no +2 in you roll, reroll everything (or lowest). There's only a 3.2% chance of this happening so it should be pretty rare.
Step 3: Sum all six values. If total is less than two (quite unlikely) reroll. If total is less than eight, write down the difference.
Step 4: Convert modifiers to stats where

-1 8
0 10
+1 12
+2 14
Step 5: If your total from step 3 was less than 8, you get to bump that many stats by one point. So someone with 14/10/10/10/10/10 has to turn their stats into 15/11/11/11/11/11 while someone with 14/14/12/12/12/10 gets to bump one of their stats by one point.
Step 6: Apply racial modifiers.
Optional: Keep stats in the order you rolled them in. I made two four-person parties using this method and they all seemed quite viable and balanced. One did end up not having anyone with more than 12 strength which was a little strange but it just had a dex-based frontliner.

Edit:

Now that is just ridiculous. Any stat over 15 before racial modifiers seriously messes with the basic assumptions of the system and I saw in one of the other thread you had three such scores and a 15. Your character will get three attrubutes at 20 and grab two feats to boot which means that most of the time you'll be about as powerful as a character about two levels higher than you made by the normal method*.

*This is a really ballpark estimate.

My table (that I GM) does 4d6 drop the lowest, roll 7 times, drop the lowest total. Here are the three statblocks we rolled with this system just last night.
7,9,9,11,12,15
8,9,11,11,12,14
13,13,14,14,15,15

The first two are sub-par, the last is moderately high powered, but not high enough to cause trouble.

[MustacheFart]

Now that is just ridiculous. Any stat over 15 before racial modifiers seriously messes with the basic assumptions of the system and I saw in one of the other thread you had three such scores and a 15. Your character will get three attrubutes at 20 and grab two feats to boot which means that most of the time you'll be about as powerful as a character about two levels higher than you made by the normal method*.

*This is a really ballpark estimate.

And yet, I still got my ass handed to me on a silver platter by the Champion fight in HOTDQ. Even with nice stats, a level 1 character is still just a level 1 character. The only difference I've noticed by having higher stats is that I had more HP than most of the party with 16 HP at level 1. Then again I am a barbarian so I should have more anyway.

Also how can you say that any stat over 15 before racial modifiers seriously messes with the basic assumptions of the system? It hasn't been out long enough for enough data to be collected. What are these basic assumptions? That everyone should suck? That everyone aside from rogues and monks should have as little dexterity as Steven Hawking?

Really, it depends on what your table uses. I don't consider what my table uses as "ridiculous". I don't consider it anything. If I had to it would be "playing at a heightened ability".

It doesn't really matter though because the DM can scale everything up or down as needed. So as long as you have a system that is accepted and utilized by the entire party (including the DM) you're fine.

For reference, here were my stats:

Half-Orc (+2 STR, +1 CON)
18 STR
18 DEX
18 CON
12 INT
17 WIS
15 CHA

[Theodoxus]

I've seen several people on the forum mention they've made characters this way and I strongly believe it is the wrong way to go about it. The main problem I have with it is that it tends to produce characters that are much stronger than point-buy/what the system assumes. It's kind of like making 40-point-buy characters in 3e. There is also a non-negligible chance to get less than 8 in some stats although that's a much more serious concern for 3d6-style character creation.

So here's the method I came up with for rolling stats. It's a bit complicated but makes diverse yet balanced characters with stats in the 8 to 15 range. I was playing around and made 8 random characters with this method over the last few days and so far it works pretty well. Tomorrow I am actually going to start DMing and see what my players think of it.

Step 1: Roll 2d4h1-2 six times. This gives you six results in the -1 to +2 range with this distribution (http://anydice.com/program/458e). You can probably guess these are the modifiers.
Step 2: If there is no +2 in you roll, reroll everything (or lowest). There's only a 3.2% chance of this happening so it should be pretty rare.
Step 3: Sum all six values. If total is less than two (quite unlikely) reroll. If total is less than eight, write down the difference.
Step 4: Convert modifiers to stats where

-1 8
0 10
+1 12
+2 14
Step 5: If your total from step 3 was less than 8, you get to bump that many stats by one point. So someone with 14/10/10/10/10/10 has to turn their stats into 15/11/11/11/11/11 while someone with 14/14/12/12/12/10 gets to bump one of their stats by one point.
Step 6: Apply racial modifiers.
Optional: Keep stats in the order you rolled them in. I made two four-person parties using this method and they all seemed quite viable and balanced. One did end up not having anyone with more than 12 strength which was a little strange but it just had a dex-based frontliner.

Holy crap that's complex. I was happy with 1d8+7 for each stat. If it's less than 27 PB, you get 27 PB.

I also play with everyone rolls a set of stats (whatever method we decide on) and everyone votes for the best set - and everyone uses that set. Keeps things consistent like PB, but allows for rolling which people seem to really like.

[LaserFace]

Yeah, I think more important than keeping stats above or below a threshold is keeping them within a range. Some characters can be weaker than others, but if one character has the elite array but each other party member has at least two 18s, the elite character might just retire their character and try for a better stat block.

It goes the other way for me as well. If there are unnaturally high outliers, I ask for rerolls then as well. I don't want Wizards treading into Fighter territory just because they got bored of casting spells, and have all the 18s to pull it off.

[ambartanen]

And yet, I still got my ass handed to me on a silver platter by the Champion fight in HOTDQ. Even with nice stats, a level 1 character is still just a level 1 character. The only difference I've noticed by having higher stats is that I had more HP than most of the party with 16 HP at level 1. Then again I am a barbarian so I should have more anyway.
Yeah, I hear that fight is pretty brutal. Our first level fighter made with point buy got dropped by two CR 1/4 goblins that rolled the average on their attack and damage dice. One attack from each goblin and he was dropped from full hp :)


Also how can you say that any stat over 15 before racial modifiers seriously messes with the basic assumptions of the system?
Because characters made with point-buy cannot buy more than a 15 which means they cannot start with more than a +3 modifier, can have at most one +4 at level four and one +5 with no +4s at level eight. And that's assuming they don't multiclass or take any feats. Just to illustrate the difference between point-buy and your stats, your character has 5% better chance to hit (and will continue to do so until at least level eight), deals one more damage with each hit (much more likely to drop weak enemies in a single hit), 18 armor class to our fighter's 16 so 10% less likely to be hit, 15% more likely to go before our fighter in the initiative order and 18 constitution to our fighter's 14 which isn't a huge deal at level one but will quickly turn into a major difference.

So at level 8, assuming no feats, our fighter has 20 str/14 dex/14 con while your character has 20 str/18 dex/20 con. Attack attribute finally caught up but you have 19 AC to the fighter's 17 and 24 bonus hit points which is 26% of our fighter's total hit points. Being able to take three more hits and being 10% less likely to get hit all along makes a huge difference in your fighting capabilities. Sure, none of it is cool flashy powers like what class levels give you but it still makes a very big difference over the course of a campaign.

And that's comparing your strong stats. To buy stats that good the fighter ended up with 8 int, 10 wis and 8 charisma making him not only a lot less able to contribute to non-combat situations but much more likely to fall for the stereotypical spells taking out fighters. In the meantime your barbarian can grab Resilient (Wisdom) (since you have much less need for stat boosts in the first place) and become nearly as strong-willed as the best clerics. You even have 15% better chance to succeed on every single save except strength (well, only 10% better for dexterity) even without taking any feats.


Really, it depends on what your table uses. I don't consider what my table uses as "ridiculous". I don't consider it anything. If I had to it would be "playing at a heightened ability".
Ok, I don't mean to say your group is doing anything wrong. The point is to enjoy the game and if everyone on the table is happy, you can roll whatever dice you want or just assign 20 to each stat at character creation. I just wanted to point out that it has huge effects on the balance of the game and it would give most DMs trying to give you challenging encounters quite a headache, especially if all the characters' attributes are even remotely this good.

I can definitely imagine campaigns where these kinds of attributes would be appropriate. I once GMed a campaign where all the characters were children of gods and had them roll 4d6k3 seven times and drop the lowest because I wanted them to be quite a bit more powerful than the average character we'd gotten used to. I still think the method I proposed is better for people who just like rolling dice and 4d6k3 should only be used if the GM has a particular reason to want it.


Holy crap that's complex. I was happy with 1d8+7 for each stat. If it's less than 27 PB, you get 27 PB.
Eh, I can make a character including race and class using this method in under two minutes but I am pretty good at calculations so I tend to devise surprisingly complex mechanics when I think I am actually doing something very simple and intuitive. Which part do you find the most complex?


My table (that I GM) does 4d6 drop the lowest, roll 7 times, drop the lowest total. Here are the three statblocks we rolled with this system just last night.
7,9,9,11,12,15
8,9,11,11,12,14
13,13,14,14,15,15
Yeah, bad rolls happen even with 4d6k3 but I have to say you actually got really lucky. At least everyone got playable stats instead of someone getting a 5 and a 7 while someone else got two 18s. Personally, I really don't like having characters with under 8 in some stat unless the player specifically wanted to have a disadvantaged character.

[cobaltstarfire]

I was building my first 5e character (and my first D&D character in general), and rolled up some stats in front of my DM.

I wasn't aware of the point buy being required for the organized play, but the DM said it was fine since I rolled in front of him.

I managed to roll pretty good (17, 16, 15, 10, 10, 9), but I've been thinking of taking the cut in switching to point buy stats (probably 15, 15, 11, 10, 10, 10 ) so I can take him to other events if needed.

Yeah the head GM for my store is doing the same thing (using rolls), but I may end up having to move during the season. So I'm going to switch to one of the legal ways of character gen at the end of the episode. (My rolls weren't that great though, 16, 15, 13, 13, 10, 9, almost identical to the standard array)

(The rules for this season of adventurers league can be found here (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/events/adventurers-league-resources)btw. The bare basics are, No CE, NE allowed, LE must be in the Lords Alliance or Zhentarium, use the standard array or point buy for character gen, and the only rules allowed are tose in PHB/Basic)


As far as Minimum ability scores, the GM here seems to be allowing people to bump up anything lower than an 8 up to an 8. I think I'd probably do something similar or allow rerolling. We also use roll 4d6 drop the lowest.

I think the 4d6 method is fine, but many of the people at my table got a pretty variable batch of rolls. The paladin got a 3. I got a 9, someone else got...something worse than an 8 I can't remember what.

For being a module used for beginners HotDQ is actually really brutal for both beginners and players that don't try to play smart. We're to the third fight and have basically used up all of our casting resources (I don't know how the wizard is doing, but I know myself and the druid have been sucked dry of our spells, partially thanks to one of our players being quite frankly incompetent...). And me (being the only character in heavy armor) is down to just 4 hp, because all I can do now is try to protect the squishier players.

I think new players, and those who aren't interested in being good team players really need that extra boost from 4d6 drop 1 based on my experiences so far (I also think people can play however they want it isn't "wrong" to use such a generation style, I wouldn't want to use your rolling rules ambartanen because they look extra complicated and I'm not interested in complicating my game night, even if it's just once per character gen)

Edit: also I'm super groggy right now so I apologize for any weird incoherent bits...why am I posting? I don't know

[MeeposFire]

I think it is too early to tell but I think it will be interesting to see how close the game can get to AD&D and oD&D to not really caring about ability scores to play an effective character. In those games having good stats were awesome but you could play a low str fighter and make a go of it due to the fact that most of your abilities came from class rather than ability scores.

My feeling is that 5e is between AD&D and the 3e/4e line (which basically require a certain set of stats to even work with a few exceptions) but the question is is it closer to AD&D in this regard or 3/4e.

[ambartanen]

I think new players, and those who aren't interested in being good team players really need that extra boost from 4d6 drop 1 based on my experiences so far (I also think people can play however they want it isn't "wrong" to use such a generation style, I wouldn't want to use your rolling rules ambartanen because they look extra complicated and I'm not interested in complicating my game night, even if it's just once per character gen)

But 4d6k3 doesn't really give a boost, it often just makes the characters very different in power level. If you just want to make the characters better able to handle the adventure either give them a superior array (18/16/14/12/10/8?) or better yet make it actually appropriate for the group you have.

As for the complexity, that's fair enough. The method is more complicated than just rolling 4d6k3 six times or using the standard array. My method is simpler than point buy though- you roll some dice, are told what your stats are and get to bump some of them up by one point. It's really only step five (deciding which stats to increase if you get to do that at all) that's different from normal rolling.


My feeling is that 5e is between AD&D and the 3e/4e line (which basically require a certain set of stats to even work with a few exceptions) but the question is is it closer to AD&D in this regard or 3/4e.
Characters definitely need their attack stat to be as high as possible. Anyone who starts with an attack stat of 12 takes an almost indefinite -10% to hit which will become quite noticeable over a campaign. Only niche character concepts (buffer caster, moon druid) can even consider lowering their attack stat but, strangely enough, those are the types of characters that don't need to do so.

[jmbrown]

And yet, I still got my ass handed to me on a silver platter by the Champion fight in HOTDQ. Even with nice stats, a level 1 character is still just a level 1 character. The only difference I've noticed by having higher stats is that I had more HP than most of the party with 16 HP at level 1. Then again I am a barbarian so I should have more anyway.


It specifically says in the book that you're not supposed to beat him. He's even flanked by a dozen or so kobolds. Pretty poor design IMO to introduce an unwinnable fight at level 1 but you fight him again around level 3-4 and it's an actual fair fight.

When I reach this point in my own game I'm probably going to make him a weaker character and then say you encounter his brother or something later on who wants revenge.

[Mandrake]

As I believe that rolling is misrepresented in this thread (and it might continue to be so), I would like to add:

Standard array sometimes just does not fit the character I want to make. Be it that I want to be really weak with my Strength, or that I anyway dislike the layout. Standard array is also so... standard.
Point buy, on the other hand, can make some min-maxing tempting (which is ok for leagues and such). You can't have a stat lower than eight, also, which I sometimes would like to have. Plus they get really frustrating since you always lack that one point. :smallwink:
I like random because rerolls with floor and ceiling control (safety-netting, capping for highest plus and lowest minus) get you all the balance you need and get you the thrill of making a special, new character, not the standard stat array that you somehow put into the right order. You get to imagine what your bonuses and minuses mean. Also, it allows for anything to happen - I was never happier than when I played (even for one session in 3e) a Bard with Strength 4. I do agree that some other option are also viable, maybe even better, but stat rolling is, for me, an iconic part of making a DnD character.

[jmbrown]

I think it is too early to tell but I think it will be interesting to see how close the game can get to AD&D and oD&D to not really caring about ability scores to play an effective character. In those games having good stats were awesome but you could play a low str fighter and make a go of it due to the fact that most of your abilities came from class rather than ability scores.

My feeling is that 5e is between AD&D and the 3e/4e line (which basically require a certain set of stats to even work with a few exceptions) but the question is is it closer to AD&D in this regard or 3/4e.

It's certainly closer to AD&D where AC and attack scales at a fixed level. An adult blue dragon has AC 19. A 16th level character has a +5 proficiency bonus. That's a flat 30% chance to hit. Even at 16 strength that's now base 50% chance to hit. Of course at that point you've had 4 ability score improvement opportunities which is either +8 to any one stat or +4 to any two. And given the nature of advantage in this game it's basically the equivalent of a +5 to hit so you want to create ways to give yourself advantage whenever possible.

I don't see the point in rolling for ability scores in this system because A) the classes are designed around making your primary ability score the one you use the most and B) ability scores mean less in the long run. Considering ability score magic items give you a flat 19 and you have so many opportunities to improve them via race or modifiers.