Making Sorcerer a T3 caster

[Mcdt2]

In my campaign, I'm using a variety of homebrew casters patterned after list casters like Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, etc (with the casting progression changed so they get new spell levels on odd levels, like wizards). Naturally, these classes have replaced the Sorcerer and Wizard classes. However, while there are now an excellent variety of specialist casters, generalists are a bit hard to make, which is especially problematic on the DM'ing side for certain boss enemies.

In order tor rectify this, I want to add the Sorcerer back into my games, but I worry about balance. So, playground, what do you think? What sorcerer spells should be kept, and which should be cut? I'm definitely cutting the entire line of Summon Monster spells, as well as using the Pathfinder versions of Alter Self and polymorph spells (Beast Shape etc). I'm open to both 3.5 and PF spells, even homebrew if you know any good ones to suggest.

Furthermore, if only to give them more variety, I'm considering using the PF Sorc's bloodlines, but I don't know how balanced they are, and certain spells they grant should be cut, I'm sure, but which bloodlines are any good? which could use some buffs? Any other opinions on the idea in general?

[Asrrin]

Wish, Gate, Shapechange, Timestop.

then take the best spell of each level, and give it to the themed caster of choice and ban it from the sorc list. You want them to be more of a jack-of-all-schools, so shouldn't be able to cherry pick the best spells of each school.

[Fax Celestis]

Step 1: Remove the 9-level spell progression on the Sorcerer table and the 9-level spells known table.
Step 2: Cut the 6-level spell progression on the Bard table off, and set aside with the 6-level spells known table.
Step 3: Glue the 6-level spell progression onto the Sorcerer and insert the 6-level spells known table into the place where the 9-level spells known table was.
Step 4: ???
Step 5: PROFIT!

[Extra Anchovies]

Maybe something similar to the spirit shaman, where they choose a narrow list of spells "known" at the start of each day and cast from that list for the day's duration? Remove the game-breakers (gate, shapechange, wish) and the powerful themed spells (i.e. the tastiest bits of other casters' lists, such as Plague of Undead), and you have a class with the potential for versatility but also one that still has some limits.

You could potentially also alter their spell progression so that it caps at 7th or 8th level spells and/or keep its spell progression at 1st/4th/6th/8th/etc instead of 1st/3rd/5th/7th/etc.

[Psyren]

In addition to summons and polymorph, you should probably also cut the calling spells like Planar Binding. Watch out for instantaneous creation spells like Wall of Iron, and be wary of Fabricate. The Create Undead line can also be problematic depending on the splats available.

Also, definitey ban Disjunction, or at least tweak it or use the PF version.

[Blackhawk748]

Maybe something similar to the spirit shaman, where they choose a narrow list of spells "known" at the start of each day and cast from that list for the day's duration? Remove the game-breakers (gate, shapechange, wish) and the powerful themed spells (i.e. the tastiest bits of other casters' lists, such as Plague of Undead), and you have a class with the potential for versatility but also one that still has some limits.

You could potentially also alter their spell progression so that it caps at 7th or 8th level spells and/or keep its spell progression at 1st/4th/6th/8th/etc instead of 1st/3rd/5th/7th/etc.

I like this, but it think that may keep them at T2. Honestly you could just give them a Heritage feat at lvl 1,5,10,15, and 20. And then they get some spells added to their list based on their heritage choice, kinda like when you take Draconic Legacy. As we all know Draconic mages have a ton of spells linked to them, Infernal and Abyssal may be a bit harder but not impossible. I think Fey and Aberrition would be the hardest to do.

Also seconding not letting them have Shapechange, Gate etc.

[Extra Anchovies]

I like this, but it think that may keep them at T2. Honestly you could just give them a Heritage feat at lvl 1,5,10,15, and 20. And then they get some spells added to their list based on their heritage choice, kinda like when you take Draconic Legacy. As we all know Draconic mages have a ton of spells linked to them, Infernal and Abyssal may be a bit harder but not impossible. I think Fey and Aberrition would be the hardest to do.

Also seconding not letting them have Shapechange, Gate etc.

Hm. Introducing Heritage bonus feats would be cool, maybe with a tailored spell list for each feat progression. Draconic and Fiendish legacies (also possibly Celestial? Not all sorcerers are evil) would be mostly drawn from the default sorcerer list, Fey could have a focus on enchantment with some druid spells tossed on the side, and Aberration could have access to the Summon Monster chain (pseudonatural creatures only) and some cleric stuff (take a look at the Cavern, Chaos, Darkness, Death, Decay, Destruction, Dream, Envy, Evil, Fate, Force, Greed, Hunger, Illusion, Madness, Mind, Pact, Pestilence, Planning, Portal, Retribution, Rune, Slime, Sloth, and/or Trickery domains {here's a list of all of them for good measure (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/domains.html)} for some cool stuff that an aberrant-blood sorcerer could have}).

[heavyfuel]

Step 1: Remove the 9-level spell progression on the Sorcerer table and the 9-level spells known table.
Step 2: Cut the 6-level spell progression on the Bard table off, and set aside with the 6-level spells known table.
Step 3: Glue the 6-level spell progression onto the Sorcerer and insert the 6-level spells known table into the place where the 9-level spells known table was.
Step 4: ???
Step 5: PROFIT!

This is exactly what I do if someone REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to play a Sorcerer/Favored Soul at my table and it works really nicely, but overall they are extremely discouraged.

[Extra Anchovies]

This is exactly what I do if someone REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to play a Sorcerer/Favored Soul at my table and it works really nicely, but overall they are extremely discouraged.

Well, yeah. A class that gets bard casting, 2+int skills/level, and no other class features besides a familiar? That's a **** class. It might not be an actually bad class, but it'd be boring as all hell to play. If you nerf the casting, give them some other nice things.

[Fouredged Sword]

Actually, that may work really well. Give them an advanced bard spell progression (cast as a bard +2 levels and +2 spell per spell level, but CL = sorcerer level). The thing is that they also have no class features, so lets fix that. Lets have their casting be based on Int for bonus spells and casting, and Cha for saves. A little mad is good for everyone.

First, lets decide what a sorcerer IS. I am of the opinion that a sorcerer is a master of magic itself. I say play that up and make them the metamagic specialists of the game. Yes, they cap out at 6th level spells, but they use metamagic to cast spells equivalent to 9th level spells or highter.

Class progression
Sorcerer - 1d4 HD, 4+in mod skills per day. All int skills, social skills, and UND are class skills. 1/2 bab, Good will save.

Class features.

Level 1
Bonus metamagic feat - at first level, second level, and every three levels after a sorcerer gets a bonus metamagic feat he qualifies for.

Matamagic spontaneity - Despite being a spontaneous caster, adding metamagic to a spell does not increase the casting time for a sorcerer.

Arcane Pool - At first level a sorcerer gains a pool of points he may use to modify his sorcerer spells with. This pool is equal to his int mod+class level. These points may be spent to reduce the cost of metamagic effects to a spell as the sorcerer casts it at a cost of one point per level the metamagic would alter the spell. At 1st level the sorcerer may use one point on a given spell. At 6th level and every 6 levels after that, the sorcerer may use an extra point on a given spell. The class feature can only be used to modify his class spells, and spells modified by this class feature cannot have any other metamagic applied to them. Only one metamagic feat may be applied to a spell using this class feature.

3rd level
Arcane power - A sorcerer picks a metamagic effect (he does not need the feat) of +1 adjustment or lower. He may apply this to a spell for free cha mod times per day. At 9th level he picks a +2 adjustment metamagic and may apply it to any spell Cha mod times per day (seperate pools). At 15th level he picks a +3 matamagic and may use it the same way. At 20th level he picks any metamagic effect and may apply it the same way.

4th level
Arcane Research - A sorcerer adds one spell from any other casting class to his class spell list. He must still take this spell as one of his spells known. It must be a spell level he is capable of casting using his sorcerer casting when he gain this class feature. He may choose another spell at 7th level and every three levels after that.

6th level -
Arcane Talent - A sorcerer picks one of the following to apply for free to all his spells: Heighten, Still, Silent, or Extend. These spells are modified, but do not count as spells with metamagic for Arcane Pool. At 12th level, he may pick a second metamagic to apply to all relevent spells, and may also pick one of the following: reach, shape. At 18th level he may pick a third, and may also choose from Empower.

There. That should be a nice flexible high tier 3.

[Blackhawk748]

generally they get +2 spells per spell lvl, and sorcerers are used to bailing ASAP into a PrC.

[Troacctid]

A sorcerer who's not consciously trying to break the game is most likely going to wind up in T3 anyway. A poorly optimized sorcerer often lands in T4.

[Gemini476]

A sorcerer who's not consciously trying to break the game is most likely going to wind up in T3 anyway. A poorly optimized sorcerer often lands in T4.

Or closer to something like Tier 6, if they choose the wrong spells every time. Most spontaneous classes that aren't list casters have a very low floor.

[Baroknik]

Actually, that may work really well. Give them an advanced bard spell progression (cast as a bard +2 levels and +2 spell per spell level, but CL = sorcerer level). The thing is that they also have no class features, so lets fix that. Lets have their casting be based on Int for bonus spells and casting, and Cha for saves. A little mad is good for everyone.

First, lets decide what a sorcerer IS. I am of the opinion that a sorcerer is a master of magic itself. I say play that up and make them the metamagic specialists of the game. Yes, they cap out at 6th level spells, but they use metamagic to cast spells equivalent to 9th level spells or highter.

Class progression
Sorcerer - 1d4 HD, 4+in mod skills per day. All int skills, social skills, and UND are class skills. 1/2 bab, Good will save.

Class features.

Level 1
Bonus metamagic feat - at first level, second level, and every three levels after a sorcerer gets a bonus metamagic feat he qualifies for.

Matamagic spontaneity - Despite being a spontaneous caster, adding metamagic to a spell does not increase the casting time for a sorcerer.

Arcane Pool - At first level a sorcerer gains a pool of points he may use to modify his sorcerer spells with. This pool is equal to his int mod+class level. These points may be spent to reduce the cost of metamagic effects to a spell as the sorcerer casts it at a cost of one point per level the metamagic would alter the spell. At 1st level the sorcerer may use one point on a given spell. At 6th level and every 6 levels after that, the sorcerer may use an extra point on a given spell. The class feature can only be used to modify his class spells, and spells modified by this class feature cannot have any other metamagic applied to them. Only one metamagic feat may be applied to a spell using this class feature.

3rd level
Arcane power - A sorcerer picks a metamagic effect (he does not need the feat) of +1 adjustment or lower. He may apply this to a spell for free cha mod times per day. At 9th level he picks a +2 adjustment metamagic and may apply it to any spell Cha mod times per day (seperate pools). At 15th level he picks a +3 matamagic and may use it the same way. At 20th level he picks any metamagic effect and may apply it the same way.

4th level
Arcane Research - A sorcerer adds one spell from any other casting class to his class spell list. He must still take this spell as one of his spells known. It must be a spell level he is capable of casting using his sorcerer casting when he gain this class feature. He may choose another spell at 7th level and every three levels after that.

6th level -
Arcane Talent - A sorcerer picks one of the following to apply for free to all his spells: Heighten, Still, Silent, or Extend. These spells are modified, but do not count as spells with metamagic for Arcane Pool. At 12th level, he may pick a second metamagic to apply to all relevent spells, and may also pick one of the following: reach, shape. At 18th level he may pick a third, and may also choose from Empower.

There. That should be a nice flexible high tier 3.

Is there a limit on the level change for free heighten? Otherwise all save DCs are infinite...

[Extra Anchovies]

Is there a limit on the level change for free heighten? Otherwise all save DCs are infinite...

Maybe set the highest possible level for free heighten at +2? That's the increase used for Heighten SLA.

[Fouredged Sword]

Is there a limit on the level change for free heighten? Otherwise all save DCs are infinite...

In theory, you could slap heighten 2 times on a spell using the class abilities. You could pick heighten 1 times as your arcane talent, and then apply it again using arcane pool. Arcane talent is a one and done thing. You can't layer it. Bonuses (and a free heighten is a bonus) don't stack from the same source.

[Gemini476]

Maybe set the highest possible level for free heighten at +2? That's the increase used for Heighten SLA.

Or it could be up to the maximum spell level you could cast, I suppose. Would certainly make bookkeeping a lot simpler.

[Extra Anchovies]

Or it could be up to the maximum spell level you could cast, I suppose. Would certainly make bookkeeping a lot simpler.

But for all of your spells? That seems like a bit much for a sixth level ability.

[Gemini476]

But for all of your spells? That seems like a bit much for a sixth level ability.

It probably would be, yes. But on a caster where your spells will never reach a higher DC than 16+Cha+Misc? Yeah, I dunno. I just think it would keep down quite a bit of bookkeeping if you didn't have to keep track of a separate save DC for every single spell out there. (Kind of like the generic 10+1/2 class level+Stat save DCs, for instance.)

Although I would probably put such an ability in at level 10 or something, I think. Make it its own ability, and remove eighten from the list of Arcane Talents since it's kind of lackluster (+1 to DC vs. Still/Silent/Extend) That's when you start falling behind the Beguiler and such. (Although I suppose taking it thrice would let you keep up with the list casters in DCs, wouldn't it...)


Another thing to note is that getting casting as a Bard+2 levels gets a bit weird:
1st level spells at level 1.
2nd level spells at level 2.
3rd level spells at level 5.
4th level spells at level 8.
5th level spells at level 11.
6th level spells at level 14.

In other words, you're a better caster than any other Tier 3 caster for the first seven levels and then it flips around to being even for 8-9 and then from that point on the Sorcerer is 1-2 levels behind. He also maxes out at level 17.

[Snowbluff]

Step 1: Remove the 9-level spell progression on the Sorcerer table and the 9-level spells known table.
Step 2: Cut the 6-level spell progression on the Bard table off, and set aside with the 6-level spells known table.
Step 3: Glue the 6-level spell progression onto the Sorcerer and insert the 6-level spells known table into the place where the 9-level spells known table was.
Step 4: ???
Step 5: PROFIT!

Your plan is insufficient. Skip removing and replacing the spell slot progression. That way they'll have higher level slots for metamagic use. Additionally, change the rules on MM so it doesn't increase casting time. Call it the Metamagician. This also solves the DC problem and the nonsense that's been placed before this post. #mechanicallyinclusivedesign

[Gemini476]

Your plan is insufficient. Skip removing and replacing the spell slot progression. That way they'll have higher level slots for metamagic use. Additionally, change the rules on MM so it doesn't increase casting time. Call it the Metamagician. This also solves the DC problem and the nonsense that's been placed before this post. #mechanicallyinclusivedesign

That sounds like a good plan.

It kind of reminds me of some things I've heard about rejiggering the Wizard (Normal spell progression, specialist spells can be cast from any slot, non-specialist are limited to the same number of slots the Adept has, kinda-sorta like how Domain Spells work).

You'll still need to remove the usual suspects with the Metamagician, of course. Mostly the spells that give you lots of options on the fly, like various non-specific Conjuration(Calling or Summoning) or [Polymorph] effects. I suppose that changing it so that rather than Summon Monster I you learn Summon Celestial Baboon or whatever might help if you still want to keep them, though.

[Larkas]

Keep in mind that, without the game breakers, T2 classes may fall directly into T4.

[heavyfuel]

Well, yeah. A class that gets bard casting, 2+int skills/level, and no other class features besides a familiar? That's a **** class. It might not be an actually bad class, but it'd be boring as all hell to play. If you nerf the casting, give them some other nice things.

I probably should have mentioned that, but every class in my game gets at least 4+Int Skills, but that's besides the point, which is:

Well, yeah. A class that gets bard casting progression with more spells known to pick from a far more versatile list as well as more spells per day and has one of the best single class features in the entire game? That's actually a pretty decent class. It might not be the best class, but you can still chuck fireball or whatever you want every fight. I nerfed the casting, but it still has nice things.

[NichG]

My guess at a T3 Sorceror:

- Instead of gaining a choice of spells known per level, Sorcerors gain full access to all spells of levels they could normally learn from from sub-lists called Legacies, themed after different kinds of creatures with innate magic. They gain access to one Legacy at Lv1, a second at Lv5, a third at Lv10, a fourth at Lv15, and a fifth at Lv20. Why: The sub-lists are intended to remove access to the traditional arcane nukes or wildcard spells, similar to how fixed-list casters tend to be T3. Multiple sub-lists are provided to give some variety between sorcerors (whereas every Dread Necromancer or Beguiler is pretty much the same)
- Cast spontaneously out of spells known with slots based on the standard sorceror progression

- Additional class features:

-- Sustainable Spellcasting (Lv6, Lv12, Lv18): At these three levels, the sorceror may choose one spell from their spells known. This spell can be cast at will without using up spell slots (any application of metamagic or effects that would change the slot of the spell negate this benefit). The maximum spell level for Sustainable Spellcasting is Lv1, Lv3, and Lv5 respectively. Material components/etc must still be paid. Why: guarantees that even with resource attrition, there will at least be a small set of tasks that the Sorceror can do reliably. Again, a measure to keep the class out of T4.

-- Arcane Gift (Lv8): A sorceror has an innate intuitive control of their magic. They can choose to share control of a specific spell that they know with those around them (30ft radius). When they choose to do so, allies within the radius of Arcane Gift may spontaneously convert spell slots of the appropriate level into the shared spell. Why: this provides secondary passive utility to the class, similar to the Bard's music.

-- Innate Magic (Lv1): A sorceror gains minor at-will powers based on their choice of sub-lists, similar to reserve feats. Why: needed versatility at low levels before the spell list or spells per day becomes large enough to keep up with attrition.

-- Amplify Magic (Lv10): A sorceror may choose to use a higher level slot to cast a spell whose scaling numerical factors have an effective maximum caster level (e.g. Fireball is CL d 6 max 10d6, so the effective maximum caster level is 10). When doing so, the maximum effective caster level increases by 3 for every +1 increase to the spell slot - so casting Fireball as an 8th level spell would allow the damage to scale up to 25d6. Why: this removes the need to select incremental versions of lower level spells, which given the Sorceror's limited spells known can be a problematic drag that might force the character to T4. This allows the Sorceror's options to be used for actual versatility.

Legacies:

In general, a legacy should focus on doing one particular thing well but not completely, and should be paired with two other legacies in such a way that each pair provides a complete, functioning character via synergies. This should enable the T3 standard of 'can do one thing well and other things okay', as the Sorceror will be able to create a fully functioning pair by Lv5, and then by Lv10 can add a bit of extra versatility on top. Similarly, because the Sorceror gains more Legacies as they level, the number of spells that each Legacy provides at each spell level should slowly decrease. A pattern like:

Lv1,2: 4 spells/spell level
Lv3,4: 3 spells/spell level
Lv5,6: 2 spells/spell level
Lv7,8,9: 1 spell/spell level

might be appropriate.

As new sources become available, the best thing to do would be to either make new Legacies or to swap spells from existing legacies with spells from the new sources, keeping the total fixed. Its also okay if Legacies overlap, and if there are no Legacies that cover particular niches.

To aim for T3, it goes without saying that the fixed lists should avoid wildcard spells like Shadow Conjuration or Wish. Because of Sustainable Spellcasting, spells which have permanent byproducts (Wall of Stone, Permanent Image) should similarly be avoided unless their spell level is 6 or higher.

The persistent effect/at-will cantrip associated with a Legacy should be something which allows the Sorceror to contribute in some ways even when they can't afford to burn a spell slot on things. Its a bit of a hold-over until Sustainable Spellcasting comes online. Think Reserve Feat sorts of tricks.

Some ideas for Legacies:

Legacy of the Wyrm A focus on blasting, with some minor utility themed on mimicking some draconic abilities (e.g. giving access to Overland Flight, Resist Energy)

Legacy of the Fae Focus on illusions and enchantment effects, but also on detecting them

Legacy of the Damned Focus on debuffs, curses, and the like. Also planar travel.

Legacy of the Heavens Focus on abjurations. Also planar travel.

Legacy of the Alien Focus on teleportation, mental debuffs, and mind-reading.

Legacy of the Gods Focus on physical buffs, super-hero sorts of spell effects.

Legacy of the Mythic CreaturesFocus on specialized shapechanging (e.g. avoid Alter Self, Polymorph, PaO, Shapechange in favor of the PHB2 shapechanging effects and other similar things)

[ahenobarbi]

It sound;s like you're reimplementing Factotum class.

[NichG]

It sound;s like you're reimplementing Factotum class.

Hm, they actually seem like night and day to me. The Factotum's schtick is basically 'today I am an X' - he can pick a handful of things to be good at dynamically every day. This class is more frozen-in and casting-focused. Once someone picks their Legacies (or whatever), thats what they get. Without the freezing-in, I think it'd be back up to T2.

[ahenobarbi]

Hm, they actually seem like night and day to me. The Factotum's schtick is basically 'today I am an X' - he can pick a handful of things to be good at dynamically every day. This class is more frozen-in and casting-focused. Once someone picks their Legacies (or whatever), thats what they get. Without the freezing-in, I think it'd be back up to T2.

I wasn't referring to your post but to OP (I opened the thread long time ago and should have checked responses in the meantime, sorry for confusing).

[Extra Anchovies]

Amplify Magic (Lv10): A sorceror may choose to use a higher level slot to cast a spell whose scaling numerical factors have an effective maximum caster level (e.g. Fireball is CL d 6 max 10d6, so the effective maximum caster level is 10). When doing so, the maximum effective caster level increases by 3 for every +1 increase to the spell slot - so casting Fireball as an 8th level spell would allow the damage to scale up to 25d6. Why: this removes the need to select incremental versions of lower level spells, which given the Sorceror's limited spells known can be a problematic drag that might force the character to T4. This allows the Sorceror's options to be used for actual versatility.

This is... this is a really, really good set of suggestions. I might be implementing them next time I DM a game. However, there is one issue which I have with the quoted part. Enhance Spell is an epic metamagic feat adds 10d to the damage die cap of 1d/CL spells or 5d to the damage die cap of 1d/2CL spells; an Enhanced spell takes up a slot four levels higher. Casting Fireball as a 7th-level spell via Amplify Magic gives it a damage die cap of 22d6 (10+3*4), while Enhanced Fireball (cast via a 7th-level slot) has a damage die cap of 20d6 (10+10). You've accidentally given them a more powerful and more versatile version of an epic feat, at tenth level. Suggested fix: maximum effective CL increases by 2 for every +1 increase to the spell slot. Then the 7th-level fireball has a damage cap of 18d6, less than that granted by the epic feat.

[ahenobarbi]

Looks interesting but I can see some potential problems:


My guess at a T3 Sorceror:

- Instead of gaining a choice of spells known per level, Sorcerors gain full access to all spells of levels they could normally learn from from sub-lists called Legacies, themed after different kinds of creatures with innate magic. They gain access to one Legacy at Lv1, a second at Lv5, a third at Lv10, a fourth at Lv15, and a fifth at Lv20. Why: The sub-lists are intended to remove access to the traditional arcane nukes or wildcard spells, similar to how fixed-list casters tend to be T3. Multiple sub-lists are provided to give some variety between sorcerors (whereas every Dread Necromancer or Beguiler is pretty much the same)

This will probably result in huge fluctuations of relative power of a Sorcer as levels go by.

If you for example make this balanced at levels 1-4 you'll want spell levels 0-2 in each legacy to match themed spellcasters lists. When Sorcerer hits level 5 (and gets a second legacy) it suddenly becomes much stronger than themed spellcasters (because it now has double their spell list). At levels 6-9 you can balance this somewhat by giving Sorc weaker 3rd and 4th level spells than those of themed spellcasters (it will be pretty hard though - Sorc begins much more powerful so you have to make 3rds much weaker to balance this... but then you probably need to give it a little better 4ths so it can keep up. This in turn bites is a problem when they get a 3rd Legacy...). (and so on...).


-- Sustainable Spellcasting (Lv6, Lv12, Lv18): At these three levels, the sorceror may choose one spell from their spells known. This spell can be cast at will without using up spell slots (any application of metamagic or effects that would change the slot of the spell negate this benefit). The maximum spell level for Sustainable Spellcasting is Lv1, Lv3, and Lv5 respectively. Material components/etc must still be paid. Why: guarantees that even with resource attrition, there will at least be a small set of tasks that the Sorceror can do reliably. Again, a measure to keep the class out of T4.

This means all spells that are ok when used from slots but game-breaking when available without limits. I don't think this actually helps sorcerers.

[EdokTheTwitch]

Well, I think nobody suggested this yet:
Use a Warlock, and call it a Sorcerer. They basically have all the traits needed right out the box, as they sacrifice the diversity of a Wizard for a more specialized, albeit more flexible list. If it is a bit too weak, give him an invocation at every level (maybe determine that at some levels, like every 3rd or 4th, he must take a Shape or Essence). And, of course, change the names as needed.

In my eyes, the Warlock was always what they intended the Sorcerer to be, at least in mechanics. Even the Eldrich Blast seems more natural in a caster that was born with magic, instead of randomly needing to carry a pack of nonsensical items in order to cast spells (spell component pouch).

Just my 2cp

[Extra Anchovies]

Well, I think nobody suggested this yet:
Use a Warlock, and call it a Sorcerer. They basically have all the traits needed right out the box, as they sacrifice the diversity of a Wizard for a more specialized, albeit more flexible list. If it is a bit too weak, give him an invocation at every level (maybe determine that at some levels, like every 3rd or 4th, he must take a Shape or Essence). And, of course, change the names as needed.

In my eyes, the Warlock was always what they intended the Sorcerer to be, at least in mechanics. Even the Eldrich Blast seems more natural in a caster that was born with magic, instead of randomly needing to carry a pack of nonsensical items in order to cast spells (spell component pouch).

Just my 2cp

Sorcerers also have that draconic stuff going for them, maybe increase their invocation pool and give them access to the Dragonfire Adept invocations? Unless you also have the DFA in your game, that is.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you are playing in a caster heavy game with tier 3 as the goal, I would give the warlock and Dragonfire Adept a bard casting from a cut down sorc/wis spell lists (warock gets evil stuff with a necro/conj focus, Adept gets trans/evocation focus)

[SinsI]

Your changes turn Sorcerer into T4 or T5, not T3. Sorcerer is very limited in his abilities, and removing all the flexible must-have spells from his arsenal would make him unable to function outside the few areas that are left.

Don't ban any spells - ban broken uses of those spells instead.

[Extra Anchovies]

Your changes turn Sorcerer into T4 or T5, not T3. Sorcerer is very limited in his abilities, and removing all the flexible must-have spells from his arsenal would make him unable to function outside the few areas that are left.

Don't ban any spells - ban broken uses of those spells instead.

True. Proper spell and power choice is why T1 and T2 classes are those tiers. A wizard with crappy spell selection can be as low as T4 or T5 for a day, and a sorcerer with bad spells can be stuck at that level permanently.

[NichG]

This is... this is a really, really good set of suggestions. I might be implementing them next time I DM a game. However, there is one issue which I have with the quoted part. Enhance Spell is an epic metamagic feat adds 10d to the damage die cap of 1d/CL spells or 5d to the damage die cap of 1d/2CL spells; an Enhanced spell takes up a slot four levels higher. Casting Fireball as a 7th-level spell via Amplify Magic gives it a damage die cap of 22d6 (10+3*4), while Enhanced Fireball (cast via a 7th-level slot) has a damage die cap of 20d6 (10+10). You've accidentally given them a more powerful and more versatile version of an epic feat, at tenth level. Suggested fix: maximum effective CL increases by 2 for every +1 increase to the spell slot. Then the 7th-level fireball has a damage cap of 18d6, less than that granted by the epic feat.

The design-space overlap bothers me more than the difference in power levels honestly. A Lv10 class feature is generally speaking a bigger investment than an epic feat, so I'm okay with it being more powerful (of course there's also a non-epic feat that completely removes the scaling cap at no cost under some readings of the rules...). Mostly I was trying to duplicate how Psion powers scale. +2/slot or +3/slot doesn't make a huge difference anyhow, I think the spirit of this is preserved either way.


Looks interesting but I can see some potential problems:

This will probably result in huge fluctuations of relative power of a Sorcer as levels go by.


Yes, this is potentially problematic. I wouldn't say you'll have fluctuations of power though, just versatility - after all, the Sorceror doesn't get additional actions per round to use his additional spells with, and spell selection is pretty limited.

An alternative would be to only ever let a Sorc take a single Legacy, but make the legacies much bigger - so e.g. its 6 spells per spell level that you can access spontaneously. The reason I don't like this is that you're basically over and done with all the interesting choices in the class by Lv1 if you do this, which (while it might still end up as T3) is kinda dull to play.


This means all spells that are ok when used from slots but game-breaking when available without limits. I don't think this actually helps sorcerers.

Yes, you have to be careful to exclude that kind of spell from the Legacies. Think of these like a Warlock's Invocations. The Sorc might have at-will flight or invisibility or something - good utility - but at most they have three such tricks. If their spell list excludes wildcards and game-breakers, that should be a good fit for T3.

A Lv12 character with, e.g., at-will Fly and Silent Image definitely gains a benefit, but not a game-breaking one.

[Fax Celestis]

My guess at a T3 Sorceror:

- Instead of gaining a choice of spells known per level, Sorcerors gain full access to all spells of levels they could normally learn from from sub-lists called Legacies, themed after different kinds of creatures with innate magic. They gain access to one Legacy at Lv1, a second at Lv5, a third at Lv10, a fourth at Lv15, and a fifth at Lv20. Why: The sub-lists are intended to remove access to the traditional arcane nukes or wildcard spells, similar to how fixed-list casters tend to be T3. Multiple sub-lists are provided to give some variety between sorcerors (whereas every Dread Necromancer or Beguiler is pretty much the same)
- Cast spontaneously out of spells known with slots based on the standard sorceror progression

- Additional class features:

-- Sustainable Spellcasting (Lv6, Lv12, Lv18): At these three levels, the sorceror may choose one spell from their spells known. This spell can be cast at will without using up spell slots (any application of metamagic or effects that would change the slot of the spell negate this benefit). The maximum spell level for Sustainable Spellcasting is Lv1, Lv3, and Lv5 respectively. Material components/etc must still be paid. Why: guarantees that even with resource attrition, there will at least be a small set of tasks that the Sorceror can do reliably. Again, a measure to keep the class out of T4.

-- Arcane Gift (Lv8): A sorceror has an innate intuitive control of their magic. They can choose to share control of a specific spell that they know with those around them (30ft radius). When they choose to do so, allies within the radius of Arcane Gift may spontaneously convert spell slots of the appropriate level into the shared spell. Why: this provides secondary passive utility to the class, similar to the Bard's music.

-- Innate Magic (Lv1): A sorceror gains minor at-will powers based on their choice of sub-lists, similar to reserve feats. Why: needed versatility at low levels before the spell list or spells per day becomes large enough to keep up with attrition.

-- Amplify Magic (Lv10): A sorceror may choose to use a higher level slot to cast a spell whose scaling numerical factors have an effective maximum caster level (e.g. Fireball is CL d 6 max 10d6, so the effective maximum caster level is 10). When doing so, the maximum effective caster level increases by 3 for every +1 increase to the spell slot - so casting Fireball as an 8th level spell would allow the damage to scale up to 25d6. Why: this removes the need to select incremental versions of lower level spells, which given the Sorceror's limited spells known can be a problematic drag that might force the character to T4. This allows the Sorceror's options to be used for actual versatility.

Legacies:

In general, a legacy should focus on doing one particular thing well but not completely, and should be paired with two other legacies in such a way that each pair provides a complete, functioning character via synergies. This should enable the T3 standard of 'can do one thing well and other things okay', as the Sorceror will be able to create a fully functioning pair by Lv5, and then by Lv10 can add a bit of extra versatility on top. Similarly, because the Sorceror gains more Legacies as they level, the number of spells that each Legacy provides at each spell level should slowly decrease. A pattern like:

Lv1,2: 4 spells/spell level
Lv3,4: 3 spells/spell level
Lv5,6: 2 spells/spell level
Lv7,8,9: 1 spell/spell level

might be appropriate.

As new sources become available, the best thing to do would be to either make new Legacies or to swap spells from existing legacies with spells from the new sources, keeping the total fixed. Its also okay if Legacies overlap, and if there are no Legacies that cover particular niches.

To aim for T3, it goes without saying that the fixed lists should avoid wildcard spells like Shadow Conjuration or Wish. Because of Sustainable Spellcasting, spells which have permanent byproducts (Wall of Stone, Permanent Image) should similarly be avoided unless their spell level is 6 or higher.

The persistent effect/at-will cantrip associated with a Legacy should be something which allows the Sorceror to contribute in some ways even when they can't afford to burn a spell slot on things. Its a bit of a hold-over until Sustainable Spellcasting comes online. Think Reserve Feat sorts of tricks.

Some ideas for Legacies:

Legacy of the Wyrm A focus on blasting, with some minor utility themed on mimicking some draconic abilities (e.g. giving access to Overland Flight, Resist Energy)

Legacy of the Fae Focus on illusions and enchantment effects, but also on detecting them

Legacy of the Damned Focus on debuffs, curses, and the like. Also planar travel.

Legacy of the Heavens Focus on abjurations. Also planar travel.

Legacy of the Alien Focus on teleportation, mental debuffs, and mind-reading.

Legacy of the Gods Focus on physical buffs, super-hero sorts of spell effects.

Legacy of the Mythic CreaturesFocus on specialized shapechanging (e.g. avoid Alter Self, Polymorph, PaO, Shapechange in favor of the PHB2 shapechanging effects and other similar things)

Actually sounds a lot like my wizard rewrite.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?309205-d20r-Class-The-Wizard

[Extra Anchovies]

An alternative would be to only ever let a Sorc take a single Legacy, but make the legacies much bigger - so e.g. its 6 spells per spell level that you can access spontaneously. The reason I don't like this is that you're basically over and done with all the interesting choices in the class by Lv1 if you do this, which (while it might still end up as T3) is kinda dull to play.

Maybe something like how the Shadowcaster paths are laid out, where each path contains three spells of consecutive levels, either 1/2/3 (apprentice), 4/5/6 (initiate), or 7/8/9 (master). Fundamentals would be replaced with 0-level spells. By the end of the progression they get two paths of each type. You could rework the sorcerer class so that they're a Shadowcaster with the Shadow fluff removed and with the added fluff of the legacy of their choice. The legacy chosen would lock in one of each of their apprentice, initiate, and master paths, and they'd still have some free choice left for the other path they get of each type. The bonus feats they get from completing paths are either metamagic feats or heritage feats of their chosen Legacy. Rework the mysteries/day numbers into a spells/day progression. The side abilities (sustaining shadow and umbral sight) would be legacy-dependent too. Shadowcaster falls somewhere near T3, so it should work.

If you wanted, I could toss this into a table and work out a spells/day progression. I like this variant.

[Blackhawk748]

Maybe something like how the Shadowcaster paths are laid out, where each path contains three spells of consecutive levels, either 1/2/3 (apprentice), 4/5/6 (initiate), or 7/8/9 (master). Fundamentals would be replaced with 0-level spells. By the end of the progression they get two paths of each type. You could rework the sorcerer class so that they're a Shadowcaster with the Shadow fluff removed and with the added fluff of the legacy of their choice. The legacy chosen would lock in one of each of their apprentice, initiate, and master paths, and they'd still have some free choice left for the other path they get of each type. The bonus feats they get from completing paths are either metamagic feats or heritage feats of their chosen Legacy. Rework the mysteries/day numbers into a spells/day progression. The side abilities (sustaining shadow and umbral sight) would be legacy-dependent too. Shadowcaster falls somewhere near T3, so it should work.

If you wanted, I could toss this into a table and work out a spells/day progression. I like this variant.

I agree it sounds awesome, if really work intensive

[Extra Anchovies]

I agree it sounds awesome, if really work intensive

Heck, I'mma do it. Might not be able to come up with spell paths but I could get the table done for sure.

[Mcdt2]

I should really check my own threads more often :smallbiggrin:.

My guess at a T3 Sorceror:

- Instead of gaining a choice of spells known per level, Sorcerors gain full access to all spells of levels they could normally learn from from sub-lists called Legacies, themed after different kinds of creatures with innate magic. They gain access to one Legacy at Lv1, a second at Lv5, a third at Lv10, a fourth at Lv15, and a fifth at Lv20. Why: The sub-lists are intended to remove access to the traditional arcane nukes or wildcard spells, similar to how fixed-list casters tend to be T3. Multiple sub-lists are provided to give some variety between sorcerors (whereas every Dread Necromancer or Beguiler is pretty much the same)
- Cast spontaneously out of spells known with slots based on the standard sorceror progression
Sounds good, mostly, though a lot like how I've got cleric implemented, in a way (they choose from either a positive or negative energy list, then supplement it with2 domains at level 1, and another at levels 5/10/15)


- Additional class features:

-- Sustainable Spellcasting (Lv6, Lv12, Lv18): At these three levels, the sorceror may choose one spell from their spells known. This spell can be cast at will without using up spell slots (any application of metamagic or effects that would change the slot of the spell negate this benefit). The maximum spell level for Sustainable Spellcasting is Lv1, Lv3, and Lv5 respectively. Material components/etc must still be paid. Why: guarantees that even with resource attrition, there will at least be a small set of tasks that the Sorceror can do reliably. Again, a measure to keep the class out of T4.
Ehh. Not sold on this. But then again, I'm not a very big fan of resource attrition in my games, as it tends to bore my players. Generally I make every single fight potentially lethal, leaving them to require good tactics in order to beat them. But that's a playstyle choice I made, and certainly not the typical one.


-- Arcane Gift (Lv8): A sorceror has an innate intuitive control of their magic. They can choose to share control of a specific spell that they know with those around them (30ft radius). When they choose to do so, allies within the radius of Arcane Gift may spontaneously convert spell slots of the appropriate level into the shared spell. Why: this provides secondary passive utility to the class, similar to the Bard's music.

Intriguing. Which is honestly all I can think to say about it at the moment.

[
-- Innate Magic (Lv1): A sorceror gains minor at-will powers based on their choice of sub-lists, similar to reserve feats. Why: needed versatility at low levels before the spell list or spells per day becomes large enough to keep up with attrition.

Again, see my thoughts re: attrition above, but even so I'd rather just straight up give out reserve feats. Although, I've actually already got a class specifically focused on reserve feats, who can power them as though they had excessively high spell levels available (spell level = 3/4 level in class) so maybe not a good fit for my game.


-- Amplify Magic (Lv10): A sorceror may choose to use a higher level slot to cast a spell whose scaling numerical factors have an effective maximum caster level (e.g. Fireball is CL d 6 max 10d6, so the effective maximum caster level is 10). When doing so, the maximum effective caster level increases by 3 for every +1 increase to the spell slot - so casting Fireball as an 8th level spell would allow the damage to scale up to 25d6. Why: this removes the need to select incremental versions of lower level spells, which given the Sorceror's limited spells known can be a problematic drag that might force the character to T4. This allows the Sorceror's options to be used for actual versatility.

Ah yes. Now I remember why I like psionics. Much easier to do this sort of thing when it's built directly into the system. Maybe I should just make my sorcerer be the one from Ernir's Vancian to Psionic homebrew? Nah, makes it a bit weird I think.


Legacies:

In general, a legacy should focus on doing one particular thing well but not completely, and should be paired with two other legacies in such a way that each pair provides a complete, functioning character via synergies. This should enable the T3 standard of 'can do one thing well and other things okay', as the Sorceror will be able to create a fully functioning pair by Lv5, and then by Lv10 can add a bit of extra versatility on top. Similarly, because the Sorceror gains more Legacies as they level, the number of spells that each Legacy provides at each spell level should slowly decrease. A pattern like:

Lv1,2: 4 spells/spell level
Lv3,4: 3 spells/spell level
Lv5,6: 2 spells/spell level
Lv7,8,9: 1 spell/spell level

might be appropriate.

As new sources become available, the best thing to do would be to either make new Legacies or to swap spells from existing legacies with spells from the new sources, keeping the total fixed. Its also okay if Legacies overlap, and if there are no Legacies that cover particular niches.

To aim for T3, it goes without saying that the fixed lists should avoid wildcard spells like Shadow Conjuration or Wish. Because of Sustainable Spellcasting, spells which have permanent byproducts (Wall of Stone, Permanent Image) should similarly be avoided unless their spell level is 6 or higher.

The persistent effect/at-will cantrip associated with a Legacy should be something which allows the Sorceror to contribute in some ways even when they can't afford to burn a spell slot on things. Its a bit of a hold-over until Sustainable Spellcasting comes online. Think Reserve Feat sorts of tricks.

I like the idea, but having so few legacies at low levels, and comparatively so much more later... it doesn't seem very natural in flow.


Some ideas for Legacies:

Legacy of the Wyrm A focus on blasting, with some minor utility themed on mimicking some draconic abilities (e.g. giving access to Overland Flight, Resist Energy)

Legacy of the Fae Focus on illusions and enchantment effects, but also on detecting them

Legacy of the Damned Focus on debuffs, curses, and the like. Also planar travel.

Legacy of the Heavens Focus on abjurations. Also planar travel.

Legacy of the Alien Focus on teleportation, mental debuffs, and mind-reading.

Legacy of the Gods Focus on physical buffs, super-hero sorts of spell effects.

Legacy of the Mythic CreaturesFocus on specialized shapechanging (e.g. avoid Alter Self, Polymorph, PaO, Shapechange in favor of the PHB2 shapechanging effects and other similar things)

All very good suggestions, although I fail to see how planar travel really fits in with the Damned and the Heavens, aside from Outsiders being on other planes. I'm likewise not a fan of most of the PHB2 spells, so I'll probably just use PF's heavily nerfed versions of Alter Self, Shapechange, and the polymorph line (Beast Shape, etc). It's one of the few things I feel Pathfinder did right.



Well, I think nobody suggested this yet:
Use a Warlock, and call it a Sorcerer. They basically have all the traits needed right out the box, as they sacrifice the diversity of a Wizard for a more specialized, albeit more flexible list. If it is a bit too weak, give him an invocation at every level (maybe determine that at some levels, like every 3rd or 4th, he must take a Shape or Essence). And, of course, change the names as needed.

In my eyes, the Warlock was always what they intended the Sorcerer to be, at least in mechanics. Even the Eldrich Blast seems more natural in a caster that was born with magic, instead of randomly needing to carry a pack of nonsensical items in order to cast spells (spell component pouch).

Just my 2cp

Well, for one, I've already got Warlocks in my game, and they carry a distinct flavor (backed up mechanically) of Pacts with outsiders, Fae, and/or Eldritch abominations. Besides, they are a bit too narrow, really, in what their invocations can do.


Maybe something like how the Shadowcaster paths are laid out, where each path contains three spells of consecutive levels, either 1/2/3 (apprentice), 4/5/6 (initiate), or 7/8/9 (master). Fundamentals would be replaced with 0-level spells. By the end of the progression they get two paths of each type. You could rework the sorcerer class so that they're a Shadowcaster with the Shadow fluff removed and with the added fluff of the legacy of their choice. The legacy chosen would lock in one of each of their apprentice, initiate, and master paths, and they'd still have some free choice left for the other path they get of each type. The bonus feats they get from completing paths are either metamagic feats or heritage feats of their chosen Legacy. Rework the mysteries/day numbers into a spells/day progression. The side abilities (sustaining shadow and umbral sight) would be legacy-dependent too. Shadowcaster falls somewhere near T3, so it should work.

If you wanted, I could toss this into a table and work out a spells/day progression. I like this variant.

Ooh. This. Definitely this. I'm torn, however, between working on this, or actually finishing one of my many WIP homebrew projects. I've only just gotten one of them anywhere near presentable to the public, and even that was a simple base class fix. :smallsigh:. (still on my backburner: a Persona class/subsystem, redoing EVERY domain in order to make them have no overlap with the base list of the list-caster version of cleric I use, rebuild ALL of 4e, finish my weapon fix (technically based off another poster's unfinished project, so I don't feel comfortable releasing, unless/until I get their permission to do so). To say nothing of my dozen odd attempts to create autogen programs in excel that can handle my frankly byzantine set of houserules. You'd think I'd have learned to leave well enough alone by now, or at least switch to a different system at some point, seeing as what I'm playing can barely be called 3.5 anymore. *wishes Legend was complete so he could use that instead*) [/rant].

[amalcon]

Some options:
1) Don't play at high levels. Before about level 9, Sorcerer isn't actually that amazing. They won't know a spell for every situation until probably level 9 or 10. They're still very strong at low to mid levels, but they are in about the same league as the Bards of the world.
2) Make the spells known thing hurt a bit more. Cut the number of spells known at a given level in half (round up).
3) Nerf the spell progression. Nerfing it down to Bard levels just turns the Sorcerer into a bad Bard who doesn't need to spend a feat on a familiar. You can do something less extreme (like the already suggested nerf only spells known progression) and it will probably be OK.
4) Make them "specialize": the Sorcerer chooses one school. The first spell known at each spell level must be of that school. Also, choose two prohibited schools. Optionally give the extra slot at each spell level, but this probably won't matter very much. This is a bit less of a nerf than the first three options, and probably doesn't *quite* get you down to tier 3, but maybe in combination with some select spell nerfs it will do what you want.

[Extra Anchovies]

Ooh. This. Definitely this. I'm torn, however, between working on this, or actually finishing one of my many WIP homebrew projects.

Thanks! No need for you to do it, though; I've been working on it for...

Wow. It's been two and a half hours already. Turns out I like homebrewing.

Anyways, I've got the fluff written up, I've worked out a draft for the spells/day and spells known progressions, put in a bonus feat progression (they get seven in total, four of which are heritage feats and three of which are either heritage or metamagic), renamed some of the other shadowcaster side abilities, and am working on the major paths (1st to 9th-level spells) for each legacy. I'll post it in the homebrew forum when I've finished this step, so I can get some help making the other paths. Once it's up I'll put a link to it here.

[Extra Anchovies]

It is done. Meet the Legacy Sorcerer. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?370456-The-Legacy-Sorcerer)

Well, not entirely done. But very, very close.

[ericgrau]

Well, yeah. A class that gets bard casting, 2+int skills/level, and no other class features besides a familiar? That's a **** class. It might not be an actually bad class, but it'd be boring as all hell to play. If you nerf the casting, give them some other nice things.
Extra low level spells known might be a simple way to do interesting things. Whether selected or pre-chosen like PF bloodlines.