Changing Magic

[Grazuul]

Hello y'all,
First time caller, long time listener. I am designing a campaign but I have stumbled into a problem that has always bothered me. Is there a way to make standard magic within the PF world feel different? To be specific I want a more dramatic difference between divine, arcane, and "druid" (for lack of a better term) magic other then just spell differences. I have various ideas but most of them aren't grand enough. For instance making Divine require a divine focus on everything and a vocal prayer, arcane requires the material components and hand gestures, and "druid" requires natural surroundings. Any ideas would be appreciated and helpful.

[cesius]

On both sides of the table I try to stress the differences in the descriptions of how the spells are cast and how they take effect. Divine magic always manifests in a way that relates to the deity in question (Bless from a war domain comes with literally seeing red for a moment for example), nature magic tends to produce odors related to the caster's "home" environment or favored terrain, arcane verbals are gibberish to the unstudied, etc.

[Segev]

How much of this "change" needs to be mechanical, and how much can be handled by sufficiently well-described and -presented fluff as to what magic is, and what the existing mechanics model?

[TheThan]

Change what the classes do, and how they gain spells. I did this in a campaign setting once:
I did a slight re-write on the druid, instead of having access to all druid spells he instead had to pick a specific spell list from several different options; they were earth, fire, wind/air, water, plants, animals and so forth. I think I had like ten different options.

This forced the druid to focus on a specific aspect of “druid magic” and that means there is no generic druid, there are druids of rock and stone, druids of wind and air, druids of plant and tree etc. it was thematic and very cool.

Clerics had to focus on spells that closely associated with their deities (yes clerics had to have deities in this setting). While wizards in effect had to be specialty wizards, I believe sorcerers had to pick spells that were thematically tied together.

[Grazuul]

How much of this "change" needs to be mechanical, and how much can be handled by sufficiently well-described and -presented fluff as to what magic is, and what the existing mechanics model?

I think fluff is fine and I agree that good fluff presented correctly can really change what's going on with the spell. But I think in addition to fluff I wonder if there is some mechanical differences might produce even better fluff. For instance in the Death gate Cycle by Weiss and Hickman the two main spell casters have some differences in mechanics to spell casting (one only uses hand motions while the other dances, sings and draws runes in the air).
The first uses only somatic components while the other uses somatic, verbal, glyphical (word? now it is).

How about presented differently: If you read just the classes and were making a character could each magic realm feel different? Arcane, Divine, Nature upon first look feel the same.

[Grazuul]

Change what the classes do, and how they gain spells. I did this in a campaign setting once:
I did a slight re-write on the druid, instead of having access to all druid spells he instead had to pick a specific spell list from several different options; they were earth, fire, wind/air, water, plants, animals and so forth. I think I had like ten different options.

This forced the druid to focus on a specific aspect of “druid magic” and that means there is no generic druid, there are druids of rock and stone, druids of wind and air, druids of plant and tree etc. it was thematic and very cool.

Clerics had to focus on spells that closely associated with their deities (yes clerics had to have deities in this setting). While wizards in effect had to be specialty wizards, I believe sorcerers had to pick spells that were thematically tied together.

I like those ideas. I wonder if it's possible to incorporate slightly different spell systems for each. (spell points versus slots versus on-the-fly) as mechanical changes just may be too much work for a side project.

[jedipotter]

An easy way to change magic is to change spells. D&D does a horrible thing when they just give everyone the same spells. It is very dull and very boring.

So the first, easy, step is to trim down the spell lists.

Second, add lots more flavorful spells with lots of effects. Most D&D spells are dull and boring....''fire ray does 1d4+1 damage...period.'' Wow...exciting. Now try Wheel of Bones:
Wheel of Bones
Necromantic
Range: 0
Components: V,S,M
Duration: 1 round/level
Area of Effect: Special
Saving Throw: None

This spell transforms bone fragments into a fast-spinning pinwheel of many hones that whirl about a limb of the caster chosen during casting. The caster cannot grasp anything with that limb or cast any other spell without ending the wheel of bones, which fades instantly into nothingness when it expires. The caster can will the spell to end at any time.

A wheel of bones inflicts 1d6+4 points of damage when a priest hits a foe with it by making a successful attack roll with the limb it surrounds. The wheel of bones can also fire bone shards once per round in addition to any melee attack the caster may make. The melee attack is made with the priest's normal BaB. Hurled shards always strike at +4, regardless of the priest's own attack prowess. They cause 1d4 points of damage each, and 1d3 of them fly at the target of a shard attack. The caster designates the target of a shard attack, but has no control over how many shards are hurled at it. The missile range of these shards is 5 (short)/10 (medium)/15 (long) yards, and they may be fired at point blank range at neither a penalty or a bonus.

The damage and duration of a wheel of bones is unaffected by the number of shards it fires, and the caster of the wheel is never harmed by the spell's bone shards, regardless of where they fly, ricochet, or strike.

The material components of this spell are at least two bones or bone fragments from any source.

[Flickerdart]

Most D&D spells are dull and boring....''fire ray does 1d4+1 damage...period.'' Wow...exciting.
You probably don't know this (I am given the impression that you've never once picked up a D&D rulebook) but there's no such spell in the game. Even spells like kelgore's fire bolt or scorching ray that are actual rays of fire are considerably more complex than your hyperbole makes them out to be.

Meanwhile, the spell you describe is both tedious (wow, 1d3d4 damage? talk about pointless time-wasting dice rolling) and ineffective (+4 attack bonus forever, that's already useless at level 1).

Cutting out the chaff is actually a decent idea, but you lack all competence in its execution.

[Segev]

If you wanted to model Sartan magic, using Sorcerers or Wizards works pretty well. Their verbal and somatic components are song-and-dance-themed, but mechanically function just fine as-is.

Patryn magic is harder to do; they generally have their "spells" built into their tattoos, and do little that isn't set by them. They also have a lot more passive buffs.


My own preferred fluff for magic is that it's not "science" and it's not the gestures or the chanting or the components that make the effects. There are entities fundamentally tied to the forces being manipulated, and they and their very tiny subject spirits are mediators of the laws of physics and nature. (A sort of animism, if you like.) Divine casters are members of the hierarchies of these entities, and have authority to command in the name of their position and their deific masters. Clerics pray to get clearance, effectively, and have authority as peers and officers within the divine order; the verbal and somatic components are formal declarations of their rights and authorities to command the services their spells request. Druids have a less formal relationship, but are still seen as cousins and compatriots in the cause of Nature; the divine forces they commune with each day ask favors of them, and in return owe them favors. When the Druid casts his spells, he is asking those he's helped for help in return. Like any mutually beneficial friendship, however, he can only ask so much before they start to feel used; hence spell limits. More powerful druids have longer-standing relationships and also have been able to help more and more, so Nature is happier to aid its good and dear friend.

Arcane casters are makers, keepers, and manipulators of bargains with these entities and their servants. They do not have a place within any divine court, nor are they operating on borrowed (or earned) authority within a god's domain. Sorcerers make friends, similarly to druids, but not by joining the society of the spirits and learning their ways. Instead, they draw these beings to them. Even when they learn something by rote from a wizard, they make it their own and their charisma draws familiar entities to them who become friends and confidants. A Sorcerer's magic is personal, based on magical networking. When a sorcerer casts a spell, he is invoking a contract he fulfilled and negotiated his own terms on long ago, and relying on his contacts and connections to get it done. Precision is a must, however, as with any contract; he has no authority save that which is friends acknowledge.

Wizards are lawyers. Their spells are prepared by careful fulfillment of their side of mystical agreements, made not necessarily with them, personally, but as a general binding contract of quid pro quo. When they cast the spells they prepared (by fulfilling their parts of the bargains), wizards are invoking the contract in the names of the original signatories, listing the clauses and bylaws (often in shorthand, having explained them in greater elaboration during preparation), and finishing any final part of what they must do (material components are often final symbolic sacrifices or clear signal-gestures that they are invoking specific effects). Precision is necessary because the contract technically need not be obeyed if the wizard screws up in his claim. Miss a gesture or flub a syllable, and he just asked for something the contract doesn't require and his preparations are wasted.

Arcane spell research can thus be anything from negotiating a new contract to researching old ones and finding interesting combinations of clauses and loopholes to generate new effects owed for new combinations of preparations. Wizardly negotiations usually involve precedent and hunting down the kinds of entities which make the right kind of bargain; sorcerers do similarly but often rely on word of mouth and a more direct approach in terms of discussing terms. Sorcerers very often are the source of new contractual arrangements; they teach other sorcerers and help them negotiate, or teach wizards the agreements and leave it to the latter to formalize them. Wizards more often use older contracts to make something new from the pieces, or negotiate from a position of what has come before and finding out what makes a good bargain to offer.

Divine spell research is more about being familiar with your court's capabilities or your magical culture's proclivities, and then getting authorities created or granted so that official channels or regularized forms of aid can be constructed. Druids, in particular, have to learn more about nature's workings so they know who to ask for what kind of help.


edit to add: Note that this doesn't entail any change to mechanics. It's just a different way to fluff what the mechanics already allow. Emphasize these things in the way spells are prepared, learned, and cast, and you can get your flavor in place.

"In fulfilment of the oath forged with Carilde, I call forth a Magic Missile!" could be the verbal component, with specific gestures indicating the seals made by the signatories and to specify targets. "Carilde" might be the name of whatever entity rules over the forces invoked, whether it be some sort of hunter or warrior or spirit of sheer disruptive force. You can be as creative as you like in making up what powers are called upon, or you can leave it abstracted.

"In the name of Ino Martok, Beloved Goddess of Beauty, I lift this curse," could be a cleric's Remove Curse.

"Spirits of earth and vine, come to my aid: entwine my foes!" could be an Entangle spell.

[Nagash]

I like those ideas. I wonder if it's possible to incorporate slightly different spell systems for each. (spell points versus slots versus on-the-fly) as mechanical changes just may be too much work for a side project.

Once I ran a lower magic campaign where clerics only had their domain spells to choose from (although i expanded it to 2 choices per level) wizards had to actually cast from their spell book directly and took several rounds to cast a spell and sorcerers only got their blood line powers and abilities (pathfinder).

I augmented this with feats that simulated supernatural powers that were available to all casters. The game had a very different feel.

[Flickerdart]

edit to add: Note that this doesn't entail any change to mechanics. It's just a different way to fluff what the mechanics already allow. Emphasize these things in the way spells are prepared, learned, and cast, and you can get your flavor in place.
This fluff actually makes Shadow magic not stupid. Congrats.

[Segev]

This fluff actually makes Shadow magic not stupid. Congrats.

Thanks! Which version of "shadow magic" do you mean? The shadowcaster from Tome of Magic, or just the Shadow line of spells? And how do you see it as making it less stupid than it normally is to your view?

[Flickerdart]

Thanks! Which version of "shadow magic" do you mean? The shadowcaster from Tome of Magic, or just the Shadow line of spells? And how do you see it as making it less stupid than it normally is to your view?
Both, but mostly the shadowcaster. The current fluff of "well there's this Plane of Shadow and I guess it mimics real magic or something" is awful. But if you have little creatures who do this kind of stuff, it makes sense that you can have these shadow versions of them. Sort of like the criminal underworld of magic. Mafia spells.

[Ettina]

One story idea I had was to have all magic come from extraplanar beings in some way, with three methods of getting it.

One group would make a deal with a particularly powerful being, to do their bidding in exchange for getting power. This is basically what clerics already do, so my only idea for changing it is to actually roleplay prayers (when regaining spells) as conversations with the diety. The main drawback is if they displease their diety, they lose their powers. Also, in the setting I had in mind, basically none of the dieties were Good-aligned.

Another group would grab relatively weak extraplanar beings, drag them into our world, and force them to do our bidding. I think there's already a class that does this, but I'm still a newbie at D&D so I'm not sure about that. The main drawback is if they get too greedy and summon something too powerful, they could lose control of it.

The third group drags ambient magic from that other dimension into themselves and channels it with their own will. I don't know of any actual D&D class that does this, but you might be able to rework an existing class and refluff them as doing this. The main drawback is that using this power can drive you insane, especially if you use too much.

[Ettina]

Also, since I've got both a psion and a necromancer in separate campaigns right now, I've realized psionics feels a lot like a different kind of spellcasting.

[Jeff the Green]

One story idea I had was to have all magic come from extraplanar beings in some way, with three methods of getting it.

One group would make a deal with a particularly powerful being, to do their bidding in exchange for getting power. This is basically what clerics already do, so my only idea for changing it is to actually roleplay prayers (when regaining spells) as conversations with the diety. The main drawback is if they displease their diety, they lose their powers. Also, in the setting I had in mind, basically none of the dieties were Good-aligned.

Another group would grab relatively weak extraplanar beings, drag them into our world, and force them to do our bidding. I think there's already a class that does this, but I'm still a newbie at D&D so I'm not sure about that. The main drawback is if they get too greedy and summon something too powerful, they could lose control of it.

The third group drags ambient magic from that other dimension into themselves and channels it with their own will. I don't know of any actual D&D class that does this, but you might be able to rework an existing class and refluff them as doing this. The main drawback is that using this power can drive you insane, especially if you use too much.

My preferred fluff/slight modifications to crunch are similar. Magic is actually really easy to learn (it's available as a skill) but just doing it is a good way to get disintegrated. Spontaneous casters need some sort of contract with a being of magic—for Favored Souls, it's usually an outsider associated with their church, sorcerers are personal agents of an outsider or elemental, and Spirit Shamans have patron spirits, whether undead (ancestral ghosts), fey, elemental, or others. The lower-tier casters get by with intense study of how one type of magic works, letting them cast without risk. The Wizards and Archivists use complex formulae and expensive materials to protect them from the backlash, Clerics use the ordered energies of consecrated ground, and Druids don't exist. This has the welcome effect of making tier-1 casters unplayable except as dips (e.g. for wand use or domains) and putting limits on tier-2 casters (when fighting enemies too much like your patron your spellcasting is limited).

[Gemini476]

One suggestion I've seen (and really like) is to change them around so that they use different subsystems. I know that there's a good homebrew Druid out there that uses vestiges, for instance, you could keep Clerics as-is and make arcane magic work like psionics, or sub in incarnum in places, or shadowcasting, or invocations (makes sense for Clerics, to be honest), and so on and so forth.

A Druid using Pact Magic with various nature spirits while Clerics are imbued with various at-will Incantations by their god and Wizards prepare spells whilst Sorcerers use power points to manifest arcane powers and Paladins arm themselves with an armor of pure souls and Bards sing the True Names of the universe? That would be extremely interesting.

...I'd really appreciate it if anyone knows what Pact Magic Druid I'm talking about, by the way, since I honestly can't seem to find the post again. It's vexing.

[Grazuul]

An easy way to change magic is to change spells. D&D does a horrible thing when they just give everyone the same spells. It is very dull and very boring.

So the first, easy, step is to trim down the spell lists.

Second, add lots more flavorful spells with lots of effects. Most D&D spells are dull and boring....''fire ray does 1d4+1 damage...period.'' Wow...exciting. Now try Wheel of Bones:
Wheel of Bones
Necromantic
Range: 0
Components: V,S,M
Duration: 1 round/level
Area of Effect: Special
Saving Throw: None

This spell transforms bone fragments into a fast-spinning pinwheel of many hones that whirl about a limb of the caster chosen during casting. The caster cannot grasp anything with that limb or cast any other spell without ending the wheel of bones, which fades instantly into nothingness when it expires. The caster can will the spell to end at any time.

A wheel of bones inflicts 1d6+4 points of damage when a priest hits a foe with it by making a successful attack roll with the limb it surrounds. The wheel of bones can also fire bone shards once per round in addition to any melee attack the caster may make. The melee attack is made with the priest's normal BaB. Hurled shards always strike at +4, regardless of the priest's own attack prowess. They cause 1d4 points of damage each, and 1d3 of them fly at the target of a shard attack. The caster designates the target of a shard attack, but has no control over how many shards are hurled at it. The missile range of these shards is 5 (short)/10 (medium)/15 (long) yards, and they may be fired at point blank range at neither a penalty or a bonus.

The damage and duration of a wheel of bones is unaffected by the number of shards it fires, and the caster of the wheel is never harmed by the spell's bone shards, regardless of where they fly, ricochet, or strike.

The material components of this spell are at least two bones or bone fragments from any source.




I do agree that Trimming the spell list would do wonders. I don't mind certain spells (for example adding a certain arcane spell to the divine list via domains as it makes sense) but all in all there is a huge intersection of spells, when there needs to be just a huge union but a small if not null set intersection. (Math guy gross right?)

[Grazuul]

If you wanted to model Sartan magic, using Sorcerers or Wizards works pretty well. Their verbal and somatic components are song-and-dance-themed, but mechanically function just fine as-is.

Patryn magic is harder to do; they generally have their "spells" built into their tattoos, and do little that isn't set by them. They also have a lot more passive buffs.


My own preferred fluff for magic is that it's not "science" and it's not the gestures or the chanting or the components that make the effects. There are entities fundamentally tied to the forces being manipulated, and they and their very tiny subject spirits are mediators of the laws of physics and nature. (A sort of animism, if you like.) Divine casters are members of the hierarchies of these entities, and have authority to command in the name of their position and their deific masters. Clerics pray to get clearance, effectively, and have authority as peers and officers within the divine order; the verbal and somatic components are formal declarations of their rights and authorities to command the services their spells request. Druids have a less formal relationship, but are still seen as cousins and compatriots in the cause of Nature; the divine forces they commune with each day ask favors of them, and in return owe them favors. When the Druid casts his spells, he is asking those he's helped for help in return. Like any mutually beneficial friendship, however, he can only ask so much before they start to feel used; hence spell limits. More powerful druids have longer-standing relationships and also have been able to help more and more, so Nature is happier to aid its good and dear friend.

Arcane casters are makers, keepers, and manipulators of bargains with these entities and their servants. They do not have a place within any divine court, nor are they operating on borrowed (or earned) authority within a god's domain. Sorcerers make friends, similarly to druids, but not by joining the society of the spirits and learning their ways. Instead, they draw these beings to them. Even when they learn something by rote from a wizard, they make it their own and their charisma draws familiar entities to them who become friends and confidants. A Sorcerer's magic is personal, based on magical networking. When a sorcerer casts a spell, he is invoking a contract he fulfilled and negotiated his own terms on long ago, and relying on his contacts and connections to get it done. Precision is a must, however, as with any contract; he has no authority save that which is friends acknowledge.

Wizards are lawyers. Their spells are prepared by careful fulfillment of their side of mystical agreements, made not necessarily with them, personally, but as a general binding contract of quid pro quo. When they cast the spells they prepared (by fulfilling their parts of the bargains), wizards are invoking the contract in the names of the original signatories, listing the clauses and bylaws (often in shorthand, having explained them in greater elaboration during preparation), and finishing any final part of what they must do (material components are often final symbolic sacrifices or clear signal-gestures that they are invoking specific effects). Precision is necessary because the contract technically need not be obeyed if the wizard screws up in his claim. Miss a gesture or flub a syllable, and he just asked for something the contract doesn't require and his preparations are wasted.

Arcane spell research can thus be anything from negotiating a new contract to researching old ones and finding interesting combinations of clauses and loopholes to generate new effects owed for new combinations of preparations. Wizardly negotiations usually involve precedent and hunting down the kinds of entities which make the right kind of bargain; sorcerers do similarly but often rely on word of mouth and a more direct approach in terms of discussing terms. Sorcerers very often are the source of new contractual arrangements; they teach other sorcerers and help them negotiate, or teach wizards the agreements and leave it to the latter to formalize them. Wizards more often use older contracts to make something new from the pieces, or negotiate from a position of what has come before and finding out what makes a good bargain to offer.

Divine spell research is more about being familiar with your court's capabilities or your magical culture's proclivities, and then getting authorities created or granted so that official channels or regularized forms of aid can be constructed. Druids, in particular, have to learn more about nature's workings so they know who to ask for what kind of help.


edit to add: Note that this doesn't entail any change to mechanics. It's just a different way to fluff what the mechanics already allow. Emphasize these things in the way spells are prepared, learned, and cast, and you can get your flavor in place.

"In fulfilment of the oath forged with Carilde, I call forth a Magic Missile!" could be the verbal component, with specific gestures indicating the seals made by the signatories and to specify targets. "Carilde" might be the name of whatever entity rules over the forces invoked, whether it be some sort of hunter or warrior or spirit of sheer disruptive force. You can be as creative as you like in making up what powers are called upon, or you can leave it abstracted.

"In the name of Ino Martok, Beloved Goddess of Beauty, I lift this curse," could be a cleric's Remove Curse.

"Spirits of earth and vine, come to my aid: entwine my foes!" could be an Entangle spell.

Yeah I agree that the Sartan magic is basically bardic infused wizardry if not just straight D&D wizardry. But that fluff for magic is fantastically amazing.

[Fax Celestis]

One suggestion I've seen (and really like) is to change them around so that they use different subsystems. I know that there's a good homebrew Druid out there that uses vestiges, for instance, you could keep Clerics as-is and make arcane magic work like psionics, or sub in incarnum in places, or shadowcasting, or invocations (makes sense for Clerics, to be honest), and so on and so forth.

This one? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?164574-d20r-Class-The-Druid) imadethis.png

[Segev]

Ah, I can see how that would make shadowcasting fluff a little smoother, yeah. It's always bugged me how shadowcasting was billed as a new magical subsystem (like binding, truenaming, incarnum, etc.) but felt like spellcasting in a funny hat.

I'm glad people like my fluff; I'm rather proud of it. Rereading it, I worry the druid fluff is a little unclear as to why it differs from sorcerers', so I'll elaborate a little. Druids are divine casters. Unlike clerics, they don't exist in a formalized hierarchy as officers of a divine court, and unlike sorcerers or bards, they aren't charismatic leaders of groups of familiar spirits who flock to them like groupies. Druids live a life in tune with nature. They're part of a close-knit community, and the spirits of nature are neighbors and allies and co-workers in the semi-informal societal structure of the nature-spirits' world. Druids ask favors much like sorcerers, but do so from the standpoint of one who's worked out what the plans for the day are with his compatriots, rather than as a leader commanding well-known troops.

Druids cast from wisdom because it's all about lifestyle. They LIVE it, and thus it's instinctive. They prepare their spells through discussion with nature. I'd honestly probably let them do the wizard trick of leaving spell slots open for later preparation, if they've not arranged efforts with some of their allies, they can take time to do so. The prepared spells, much like clerics', are cast by invoking the favors specified. Like clerics, because they're operating from a divine position of cooperation, they don't have to be nearly as precise. Wizards and sorcerers can suffer arcane spell failures due to messing up and thus providing loopholes to beings who are sticklers for precision. Druids and clerics are just letting their allies or minions know what is expected; the spirits involved know the drill and are allies to the caster, so won't deliberately look for loopholes. Screwing up a divine caster's spells involves making their invocation so screwed up that it confuses the spirits. Screwing up an arcane caster's spells can be as easy as making them miss-quote the subsection number of the contract they're invoking. (Or, in a sorcerer or bard's case, make them mess up their compliements or sing a sour note and offend the spirits they were asking to do something for them.)

[Grazuul]

Here were my ideas somewhat unfinished but the gist at least:
I thought that modeling divine magic after an evangelical faith might be interesting, almost like a combination of the bard and cleric into a someone who preaches to the masses and it fits into my campaign Idea (yeah there is a prestige class in one of the divine splat books evangelist I believe but not the flavor I want fully) I'm thinking arcane magic goes into a magic point world from the elements of magic revised addition book. I like the free form slower magic that can be a one off win but could destroy caster idea (a feat combo actually) and for nature that one has always gotten me maybe more into the shamanistic traditions rather then the tradition of the celtic druids. More spirit magic fluff and maybe herbal concoctions. And yes these are more mechanics focused but maybe that's just helps me to differentiate for the groups I've played it.

[Grazuul]

I'm hoping to keep a dialogue going for ideas of this nature or at least a lengthy discussion of the these topics.

[Gemini476]

This one? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?164574-d20r-Class-The-Druid) imadethis.png
So it was! I really need to get around to reading the rest of d20r - you're doing a good job there, Fax.

...also, to add to the discussion, Pathfinder's Words of Power are moderately interesting. Subsystems!

[Fax Celestis]

So it was! I really need to get around to reading the rest of d20r - you're doing a good job there, Fax.

...also, to add to the discussion, Pathfinder's Words of Power are moderately interesting. Subsystems!

Here's the most recent compilation doc (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hv312g0k3050bai/d20r%20%283.20.14%20build%29.pdf?dl=0), if you're interested.