Staff with cleric & wizard spells -- Acceptable?

[Dalebert]

I realize I have to get DM approval with any custom staff but I was wondering if it's particularly frowned upon to combine cleric and wizard spells in one staff. I realize this means it requires cooperation or at least the use of some other item to get the spells not known into the staff, e.g. scrolls of Spiritual Weapon. Seems like part of the point of any magic item, especially spell trigger ones, is to be able to cast spells you can't normally cast. I also realize that you might be able to cast some spells out of it automatically while needing a UMD check for others. That's fine. But assuming there's a reasonable consistent theme for the spells, is it an absolute no-no? Here's one I was thinking of either making or commissioning (is my math right?):

Staff of Force CL 9, 18000 gp total

Wall of Force, 2 charges
9000 gp (400*9*5 / 2)

Spiritual Weapon
5400 gp (300*9*2)

Mage Armor
1800 (200*9*1)

Magic Missile
1800 (200*9*1)

[Spore]

Isn't that the main point of staffs (besides still having relevant things to cast once your spells have run out)? I mean you can recharge a staff with Mage Armor and Shield of Faith on it if you forgo a 1st level slot?

[Dalebert]

I agree but I can't recall seeing any that had both. I haven't looked at the list exhaustively but I've looked at a lot. That implies it's just not done though I've never heard it explicitly said.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's no rule against it afaik. You probably won't be able to buy one, but that's true for pretty much any custom staff unless your DM is very accomodating.
IIRC you need to be able to cast a spell every day of the items construction, so a scroll wouldn't work. Could be i'm misremembering a houserule though.


Isn't that the main point of staffs (besides still having relevant things to cast once your spells have run out)? I mean you can recharge a staff with Mage Armor and Shield of Faith on it if you forgo a 1st level slot?

You can't recharge a staff. At least not without an ACF and a feat from Dragon Magazine. You can give up a spell slot to cast a spell from a staff instead of using a charge, but that also requires a feat.
The main point of staffs is having more spells/day. Spells higher than 4th level, that you can cast at your CL and with your ability modifier to save DC (contrary to wands).
There are some staffs that can be recharged (usually via spell absorbtion) but those are all artifacts iirc.

As it is staffs are only really worthwhile for spells above 4th level that you need to cast a lot on a single day, because they're expensive. If you can recharge them or sacrifice a spell slot instead of using charges they become a good way to cast spells with expensive material or XP components (provided you need enough casts to actually exceed the cost of the initial investment).
For other spells that you only need rarely you're usually better off with a Runestaff (MIC). They are cheaper and use your spell slots instead of charges without needing a feat.

[Dalebert]

IIRC you need to be able to cast a spell every day of the items construction, so a scroll wouldn't work. Could be i'm misremembering a houserule though.

That's why I said "scrolls", plural. It would take a lot. I calculated the cost of buying scrolls of Spiritual Weapon and it was doable but then I realized I was basing the time to make the staff on the cost of making it rather than on the final cost of the staff, so that means 36 scrolls instead of 18. Twice the cost. Ugh. Puts me back at considering buying a wand. FWIW, I'm considering trying to get a cleric cohort through Leadership feat.


You can't recharge a staff.

Sure you can. It's not even that difficult as long as you know how to cast one of the spells -- Staves (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic-items/staves). It's the main thing that makes me consider taking the Craft Staves feat.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Sure you can. It's not even that difficult as long as you know how to cast one of the spells -- Staves (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic-items/staves). It's the main thing that makes me consider taking the Craft Staves feat.

Oh, PF. Didn't notice that. Carry on then :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

Spell trigger items don't distinguish between arcane and divine and may have any mix of spells, so it is totally acceptable. The crafter could also have an assistant provide any spells he lacks. EDIT: or in PF make a check. As you said casting the spell from the staff requires it to be on your class' spell list (even if it's otherwise beyond your ability that's enough), or a DC 20 UMD check.

Technically staffs don't even need to be thematic even though the example staffs are. But good on you for keeping the fluff nice.

[Dalebert]

Technically staffs don't even need to be thematic even though the example staffs are. But good on you for keeping the fluff nice.

Thanx. It does appear to be rather strongly encouraged and any custom staff requires DM approval so I'm hoping it helps with that. I feel like I'd really be pushing the limits if I tried to mix divine and arcane without a common theme. FWIW, my character is focusing on UMD. I already bought +5 UMD gloves. Spell trigger items will be automatic for me in two or three levels.

[ericgrau]

I don't think spiritual weapon is going to make the heavens fall to earth with only the DM and his mighty ban hammer to save it from utter destruction. Run it by your DM but I think it should be fine. Spiritual weapon is a weak spell, particularly in the hand of a cohort or non-wis focused class. The attack rolls are unlikely to hit often. Wall of force and magic missile are superb staff spells though. WoF for combined prepared + staff spammity use, MM for staff only as-needed use. Mage armor is unlikely to get much use since you should be preparing 24 hours worth yourself anyway, unless you have a druid buddy or summoner buddy or something.

I mean, man, at least pull some contingency-resurrection or some other crazy spell combo if you want to abuse the staff :smallbiggrin:.

I think your cost math is right for the staff.

[Dalebert]

I was just thinking about making the staff in increments because I couldn't afford to make the final product for a while. For instance, what if I started with just the Mage Armor and Magic Missile and added the higher level things on later? But then it seemed like I had found a cost loophole. Consider this.

The Minor Staff of Force (just Mage Armor and MM) would cost 5600 gp to make (11200 total value) and take 12 days, right?

Let's say I later want to add Spiritual Hammer. The time to improve it would be based on the difference in cost. Total value difference is 20800 - 11200 = 9600 or 10 days. That means I now only need 10 castings of Spiritual Hammer instead of 21 if I had crafted it all at once. Did I find a loophole/exploit or am I misunderstanding how this works?

[Ettina]

Probably should put the cleric spells in first. Some gods might refuse to bless an item already enchanted by arcane magic.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Probably should put the cleric spells in first. Some gods might refuse to bless an item already enchanted by arcane magic.

Though this is purely a fluff thing, I could see a DM using it to say "no." It seems to be that PF kept the old 3.5 set up with multiple people being able to contribute to making a single magic item, luckily for you.

It'd be expensive, but if you can swing it later, consider adding Forcecage to your staff, too. If your "add later, fewer castings" trick works out, that chAn save you a load of money with that spell. Sadly, the rest of my force-spell suggestions are 3.5 only.

EDIT: Minor typos were removed.

[Dalebert]

Thank you for the responses, but no one has answered my question clearly yet. Is this "add spells later" a loophole of sorts that can make a staff easier and possibly cheaper to produce (at least for folks who have to use other resources to cast the spells needed daily as I do for something like Spiritual Hammer.)

Again, that wasn't my goal. My reasoning is that I just can't afford the entire staff right away but would like to have some of it's potential earlier, e.g. Magic Missile cast at 8th+ CL.