Passive Perception while sleeping?

[Bellberith]

Okay, how does the passive perception work against someone who ISNT sneaking while the other guy is sleeping.

Does he just automatically wake up?

[akaddk]

Given the descriptions of the condition Unconscious, I'd probably say that unless you're making significant noise, you don't even have to roll a stealth check. Just saying you're stealthing would be enough.

[Naanomi]

Sounds like a job for Disadvantage (to your passive check); unless of course you are an Elf in 'Trance'

[Beige]

use a little logic - if you make enough noise/stuff to wake him then he'd wake up, but of course he's not going to just wake up for you being close to him or else no-one would ever get a full nights sleep due to flies XD

If you want hard mechanics, then it's a disadvantage - as you always have perception, but due to sleep one would assume your not quite as alert as always :smallwink:

[rlc]

i'd still have some kind of a roll because there's always the chance that you'll screw it up., as small as it might be.

[Shadow]

The rules for passive at advantage/disadvantage is +/-5 to the passive score.
So advantage on passive perception sets the passive at 15 + wis mod + proficiency if appropriate.
Disadvantage on a passive perception sets the passive at 5 + wis mod + proficiency if appropriate.

[Soras Teva Gee]

As far as I can find being asleep isn't well defined or linked outside of sleeps to the defined unconscious condition. I'm rather sure this is deliberate here.

And being too firm would seem problematic if you ask the question, how does that then work for a guy on watch waking people up if they're so insensate they can't even get a disadvantaged passive Perception check? Things get a little lame if a party of paladins in plate can pull it off. From a realism perspective, I'm sure we've all known at least one light sleeper that wakes up for just about everything right?

That said obviously Perception is at a disadvantage for the listeners and/or advantage for the sneaks, except maybe if someone speaks or something. Best judgement required.

Only question is for elves should trance count as the same for its 4 hours?

[Giant2005]

If you aren't making any effort to be quiet, then you are going to wake him.

[Shadow]

And being too firm would seem problematic if you ask the question, how does that then work for a guy on watch waking people up if they're so insensate they can't even get a disadvantaged passive Perception check?
If someone is actively trying to wake you up, why would you get disadvatage on perception? The reverse would be true.


Only question is for elves should trance count as the same for its 4 hours?
I would rule Yes. Just because they aren't actually alseep doesn't mean that they're alert. Think of it like a self imposed extremely deep meditative/hypnotic trance. The elf is so inwardly fucused that outside stimuli that wouldn't wake a sleeping person doesn't pierce the meditation enough to get a response.

[Bellberith]

Given the descriptions of the condition Unconscious, I'd probably say that unless you're making significant noise, you don't even have to roll a stealth check. Just saying you're stealthing would be enough.

But sleep isnt the same as unconscious. IRL it isnt the same, and in previous editions it wasnt the same. a sleeping creature can still listen and with this systems passive perception it should make a difference.

and you can't get "disadvantage" to a PASSIVE check that you don't roll for..... in this edition the only time you ROLL for perception is when you are actively searching/on lookout. sleeping is not either one so you default to passive.

[Beige]

But sleep isnt the same as unconscious. IRL it isnt the same, and in previous editions it wasnt the same. a sleeping creature can still listen and with this systems passive perception it should make a difference.

and you can't get "disadvantage" to a PASSIVE check that you don't roll for..... in this edition the only time you ROLL for perception is when you are actively searching/on lookout. sleeping is not either one so you default to passive.

you do get advantage/disadvantage to passive checks. you modify the roll by 5 :smallsigh:

[Soras Teva Gee]

If someone is actively trying to wake you up, why would you get disadvatage on perception? The reverse would be true.

Speaking from experience with night watches I can assure you I can be woken by a fairly quiet voice that says my name most of the time and it sometimes woke people in the surrounding bunks too. If you say take sleep to be say identical to the unconscious condition with its "is unaware of its surroundings" line too tightly that sort of realism breaks down because you need extraordinary effort to wake someone.

So by extension I think denying a check entirely as I said with "can't even get a disadvantaged passive Perception check" or other auto-success is simply too unrealistically advantageous for the sneak. When your asleep you generally aren't quite completely unaware especially in circumstances like expecting to be woken at some point.


I would rule Yes. Just because they aren't actually alseep doesn't mean that they're alert. Think of it like a self imposed extremely deep meditative/hypnotic trance. The elf is so inwardly fucused that outside stimuli that wouldn't wake a sleeping person doesn't pierce the meditation enough to get a response.

That bit I have no opinion on one way or the other, I might prefer yours but I can see the fluff for the other side of it too.

[Bellberith]

you do get advantage/disadvantage to passive checks. you modify the roll by 5 :smallsigh:

how do you modify a roll THAT YOU DON'T MAKE? :smallsigh:

the point of PASSIVE perception is you do not roll it...... its passive.

and on top of that, what would you roll against? the guy who isnt sneaking?

[Shadow]

how do you modify a roll THAT YOU DON'T MAKE? :smallsigh:

the point of PASSIVE perception is you do not roll it...... its passive.

and on top of that, what would you roll against? the guy who isnt sneaking?

Read post #6 above. That information comes from page 175 of the PHB.
And if the sneaky git doesn't want to wake someone, he should have to roll stealth. The sleeper should get disadvantage on the passive perception check vs the stealth roll.

[Naanomi]

Okay, how does the passive perception work against someone who ISNT sneaking while the other guy is sleeping.

Does he just automatically wake up?
Passive stealth right?

Of note, a skilled guard (ie proficiency bonus to Perception) would have a reasonable chance of being woken up by an equally skilled sneaker; about a 1/4 of the time right? Seems cinematically right for how often rogue-types 'slip past' a dozing guard. Plus said sneaky type would have virtually no chance to be noticed by a sleeping farmer or such, which also fits just fine.

[Bellberith]

Read post #6 above. That information comes from page 175 of the PHB.
And if the sneaky git doesn't want to wake someone, he should have to roll stealth. The sleeper should get disadvantage on the passive perception check vs the stealth roll.

alright, that is helpful, but like the original post, what about when someone isn't sneaking? or does passive checks apply to stealth? i find it odd that they would have passive perception on the character sheets but not just a column on the skill list that says "passive" at the top. and to be honest, i wouldn't allow a "passive stealth" to begin with because that means people can just take 10 on stealth all the time. and with rogues, that will almost always be higher than someones perception since they get double proficiency bonus to it.

[Shadow]

alright, that is helpful, but like the original post, what about when someone isn't sneaking.

My ruling as DM, in that case, would be an active percerption roll with advantage for the sleeper vs. a variable DC based on the actions of the person not trying to sneak through the room.
If he's simply walking through the room and not interacting with anything, then what kind of armor is he wearing? DC 20 (hard) if his armor doesn't grant disadvantage on stealth rolls. DC 15 (medium) if it does.
If he has to interact with something, then what effect does that have? Opening a door, etc, would lower the sleeper's target DC, for example. DC 15 (medium) for interaction, or possibly even DC 10 (easy) if that something is fairly loud.
If he's in armor that grants disadvantage on stealth (or anyone else trying to get through is) and he also has to interact with the environment somehow, then the DC is either 10 (easy) or 5 (very easy) depending on the nature of the interaction.

But I wouldn't actually do any of that. I'd simply tell the player to roll stealth (with disadvantage if he wasn't trying to be quiet) and check that against passive (with disadvantage if the player stated that he was trying to be quiet).

[Soras Teva Gee]

alright, that is helpful, but like the original post, what about when someone isn't sneaking? or does passive checks apply to stealth? i find it odd that they would have passive perception on the character sheets but not just a column on the skill list that says "passive" at the top. and to be honest, i wouldn't allow a "passive stealth" to begin with because that means people can just take 10 on stealth all the time. and with rogues, that will almost always be higher than someones perception since they get double proficiency bonus to it.

Interesting trivia... I've yet to find the support for "taking 10" anywhere in 5E.

And if you aren't trying to be avoid notice then I think you can hardly object to being noticed and can be presumed to be making enough noise people can wake up if they want. Maybe the DM makes a check for you at disadvantage because you aren't trying.

Now Rogue's trying with Expertise in Stealth will be able to sneak up on a sleep party no problem anyways, as well actually makes sense.

The point you truly seem to be missing most is there are no rules here so its rule of good sense (which is not common) and DM discretion. Also why you always post a watch if you aren't in Leomund's Tiny Invincible Hut and probably even then.

[Theodoxus]

I'd simply tell the player to roll stealth and check that against passive with disadvantage.

That's what I'd do too. If the player is insistent that he's not being sneaky, and refuses to roll stealth, I'd just take his flat stealth skill as the DC for hearing it.

If he's wearing armor that has disad to stealth, that'd be another -5 to the DC. Clanking around in armor would probably wake most anyone up.

[Theodoxus]

Interesting trivia... I've yet to find the support for "taking 10" anywhere in 5E.

Closest I've seen is the Rogue's 'Reliable Talent' at 11th level, where you get to roll a skill check with proficiency, you treat anything less than a 10 as a 10. Not quite the same (but I actually find this a better rule, even in 3x for 'taking 10, and will probably adopt it).

[Shadow]

That's what I'd do too. If the player is insistent that he's not being sneaky, and refuses to roll stealth, I'd just take his flat stealth skill as the DC for hearing it.

I actually edited that during your response time.
As to the player being insistant about not rolling stealth, that would pretty much tell me that he has zero interest in not waking the sleeper, and I would oblige that unspoken request.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67ragXpWsAI

[Diarmuid]

I dont have a PHB handy, but are there DC's for perceiving basic things like "people talking", "combat", etc like there were in 3.5? Also, in 3.5 Listen received a -10 to checks while sleeping. I'm not saying that translates 1 for 1 perfectly, but at least it gives some frame of reference to work from.

[Shadow]

Task Difficulty DC
Very easy 5
Easy 10
Medium 15
Hard 20
Very hard 25
Nearly impossible 30

No specific examples are given, but they should be easy enough to approximate.