Unarmed Swordsage with VoP?

[atemu1234]

I know sticking it on a monk is the cherry on the mediocre pie, but how does it stack on an Unarmed Swordsage? Are there any builds for it?

[WhamBamSam]

I know sticking it on a monk is the cherry on the mediocre pie, but how does it stack on an Unarmed Swordsage? Are there any builds for it?Swordsages don't get their AC bonus unarmored, so that's a major hurdle to using VoP effectively. Then there's the matter of not really getting any flight other than Balance on the Sky (which comes kinda late) unless you're a Raptoran or something. Even if you get over those hurdles, there still just aren't enough good Exalted feats and there's too much that you could do with WBL for it to be a good choice.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Unless your DM runs a world where it's extremely difficult to get appropriate magic items and WBL, VoP is always suboptimal.

That being said you shouldn't have any trouble convincing your DM to give you Wis to AC while unarmored. You ought to be able to trade your 6x skills at first level for it, anyway. At low levels, it's probably quite decent. It won't scale well, though.

[eggynack]

You ought to be able to trade your 6x skills at first level for it, anyway.
That has to be the best ACF I've ever seen. Trading out an advantageous ridiculous rules error for the loss of another ridiculous rules error is just crazy enough to work.

[Red Fel]

Unless your DM runs a world where it's extremely difficult to get appropriate magic items and WBL, VoP is always suboptimal.

I'd amend that to almost always suboptimal, but yes. USS with VoP is just slightly better than Monk with VoP. The problem is that maneuvers may add some combat versatility that the Monk lacks, but the inability to use magic items really hurts any non-caster (and many casters).

Take a look over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items). See that? That's a list of several powerful and generally vital things you need, from flight and fear immunity to teleportation and storage. You don't get those things with VoP. VoP scales badly - frankly, it scales substantially worse than what you could get with WBL.

There are certain concepts that can do somewhat well with VoP. Druid comes to mind, as does an Exalted Animal Companion. Incarnum raises some possibilities. But generally, a regular melee character - even a ToB one - relies on his magic items to scale appropriately.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I've yet to see a situation where VoP is better than spending money on items, even if you're a Planar Shepherd who's more-or-less item-independent.

[Pan151]

I've yet to see a situation where VoP is better than spending money on items, even if you're a Planar Shepherd who's more-or-less item-independent.

If you're a Monk 1/Druid X, and you happen to want the same exact things that VoP gives you (ie you want to specifically build as a melee bruiser), then those benefits are generally ahead of WBL (until the higher levels) and you're not missing anything vital that is not covered.

[eggynack]

If you're a Monk 1/Druid X, and you happen to want the same exact things that VoP gives you (ie you want to specifically build as a melee bruiser), then those benefits are generally ahead of WBL (until the higher levels) and you're not missing anything vital that is not covered.
Even if you are focusing on melee, which really seems like compounding suboptimality with suboptimality to me, it still feels like you'd be better off with some lesser metamagic rods of extend spell to keep buffs up, a ring of counterspells to make that additional duration matter, a mantle of the beast to vary your form some as needed, and a monk's belt so you don't lose a whole caster level trying to pick up an AC bonus, along with some other stuff. Items are sweet, and druids are sweet, so it vaguely follows that druid items are sweet. Really, you're just never ahead of WBL, even with a druid. It's just a ridiculously powerful resource, and VoP is not that.

[Pan151]

Really, you're just never ahead of WBL

Well, at level 7 VoP gives you:

+6 Exalted bonus to AC
+1 Deflection bonus to AC
+1 Enchancement bonus to all attacks
+2 Enchancement bonus to one ability
+1 Resistance bonus to all saves
+1 and-a-bit feats (3 exalted feats - VoP - part of the Sacred Vow as feat tax)
+ Endure Elements
+ No need to eat/drink.

At lv7 your default WBL is 19000 gp. That's not even enough to buy all the wilding clasps necessary for your magical items, let alone the items themselves (and let alone all the other stuff).

So no, don't lie to yourself that VoP "is never ahead of WBL". It does fall behind eventually, but for a large portion of the game it's solidly superior (for characters specifically build around it, that is)

[eggynack]

At lv7 your default WBL is 19000 gp. That's not even enough to buy all the wilding clasps necessary for your magical items, let alone the items themselves (and let alone all the other stuff).

So no, don't lie to yourself that VoP "is never ahead of WBL". It does fall behind eventually, but for a large portion of the game it's solidly superior (for characters specifically build around it, that is)
At 7th level, with that 19,000 GP, you can buy a ring of the beast for 8,000 GP, upping your summons by a level, a lesser metamagic rod of extend spell for 3,000 GP, letting me extend spells like primal instinct or primal hunter, for that crazy trick where you cast your buffs the day before, or spells like heart of water or obscuring snow/snowsight, making a long term buff into an all day buff, or spells like creeping cold, turning an average damage spell into a crazy damage spell. Finally, to finish things off, I'll add a ring of counterspells to the ring of the beast for 6,000 GP, and use the rest on miscellaneous thingamajogs. Non-ring options for the remaining money are mainly clasp combined with something like a periapt of wisdom, pearl of speech, or chronocharm of the uncaring archmage.

So no, don't lie to yourself that VoP is ever ahead of WBL. Because I would take that stuff, those serious improvements to my awesome druid powers, over a pile of marginal statistical bonuses any day. Abilities like those provided by a ring of the beast transcend most of the things that VoP can provide. 19,000 GP is more than enough to itemize a druid in crazy ways. Realistically, 8th level is the only one where the VoP druid even has a shot of overtaking the normal druid, because you get to take a form adding feat early, but I don't know if even that's enough to overcome the power of items, and it's a short term benefit at best, as the standard druid can just wait a level for aberration wild shape.

[Pan151]

At 7th level, with that 19,000 GP, you can buy a ring of the beast for 8,000 GP, upping your summons by a level, a lesser metamagic rod of extend spell for 3,000 GP, letting me extend spells like primal instinct or primal hunter, for that crazy trick where you cast your buffs the day before, or spells like heart of water or obscuring snow/snowsight, making a long term buff into an all day buff, or spells like creeping cold, turning an average damage spell into a crazy damage spell. Finally, to finish things off, I'll add a ring of counterspells to the ring of the beast for 6,000 GP, and use the rest on miscellaneous thingamajogs. Non-ring options for the remaining money are mainly clasp combined with something like a periapt of wisdom, pearl of speech, or chronocharm of the uncaring archmage.

Which helps me be a melee bruiser... how exactly?

Look, if I wanted to make a different build then I'd make a different build. However, I'm quite obviously not trying to play a natury wizard of any kind. I'm trying to make a melee bruiser build focused on wild shape. What I need is raw stat bonuses that a) I can utilise in all of my different forms* and b) that are not subject to every random Dispel thrown at me. In between my spells, wild shape, abberant wild shape, dragon wild shape and possibly the necropolitan template I can do any and all of the fancy stuff that I may need for any particular situation - I just need to add raw stats to my various forms, so that I can actually go toe to toe with a dragon and not get instantly exploded, and so that all these attacks I gain from wildshaping into a grell actually mean something.

If I wanted to focus on summoning and battlefield control then I would obviously not pick VoP - or get a level of monk, for that matter. Neither would I pick VoP for a high level build. But for the specific build I am talking about, for the specific level range I'm talking about, VoP is legitimately the better choice.


* Having the bonuses being consistent between different forms is a really big deal. Yes, you can get away with your rings and belts and most of the rest of your stuff remaining in place when you change into a bear (provided you can afford all of the wilding clasps necessary, which, as I demonstrated in the previous post, is flat out not happening until you reach higher levels) . But you're not getting away with it when you change into a Will o' Wisp.

[Aquillion]

It's important to point out, though, that "suboptimal" is different from "unplayable." A VoP druid is very playable, even in fairly optimized games; that's not because the combination is particularly good, it's because Druids are so good that you could honest-to-goodness play a relatively decent druid by just never using items as a personal choice, without taking VoP.

[Divide by Zero]

Which helps me be a melee bruiser... how exactly?
Buffs?

It's important to point out, though, that "suboptimal" is different from "unplayable." A VoP druid is very playable, even in fairly optimized games; that's not because the combination is particularly good, it's because Druids are so good that you could honest-to-goodness play a relatively decent druid by just never using items as a personal choice, without taking VoP.
I don't think anyone's arguing that - any of the T1-2 casters would still be T1-2 with no items (barring spellbooks, obviously). The point is that even in the best case, it's still worse than using your WBL for smart item choices.

[ericgrau]

The VoP buffs exceed WBL a little bit. But they don't give you the same variety of options that gold gives. And once you bring in more optimized magic items that are a better deal than normal it falls even further behind.

If you build specifically around it in a group with lower optimization limits I think it could be fine and the hate would be unwarranted. But like levels, feats, and all other resources really, once you bring in the higher power and variety of options that optimization gives any kind of substitute falls behind.

[eggynack]

Which helps me be a melee bruiser... how exactly?

Look, if I wanted to make a different build then I'd make a different build. However, I'm quite obviously not trying to play a natury wizard of any kind. I'm trying to make a melee bruiser build focused on wild shape. What I need is raw stat bonuses that a) I can utilise in all of my different forms* and b) that are not subject to every random Dispel thrown at me. In between my spells, wild shape, abberant wild shape, dragon wild shape and possibly the necropolitan template I can do any and all of the fancy stuff that I may need for any particular situation - I just need to add raw stats to my various forms, so that I can actually go toe to toe with a dragon and not get instantly exploded, and so that all these attacks I gain from wildshaping into a grell actually mean something.

If I wanted to focus on summoning and battlefield control then I would obviously not pick VoP - or get a level of monk, for that matter. Neither would I pick VoP for a high level build. But for the specific build I am talking about, for the specific level range I'm talking about, VoP is legitimately the better choice.
I'd much rather have those items on a bruiser as well. Keeping up a freedom of movement effect all day, protected by that ring of counterspells, incidentally, on a creature that's likely going to be getting up close and personal with lots of enemies, seems like a good decision. The same is true of keeping up primal instincts, for initiative awesomeness, and snowsight/obscuring snow, for its concealment/total concealment, or a number of other spells, because druids have a lot of them.

I'd also rather have the ring of the beast, even on a bruiser. Just because I'm mostly getting up close and personal with my enemies, doesn't mean I want to sacrifice all of my summoning abilities, and even a limited quantity of summoning benefits a whole hell of a lot from summoning access. Summoning is likely a way better way of acting as a melee bruiser as well, so focusing on summoning probably allows me to outperform your VoP majig. Druids benefit a lot from keeping their options open, because it costs just about nothing to remember that you can convert one of your melee spells into a giant crocodile.

Finally, I'm not really sure where you got your feat total on your VoP benefit listing. You say you have three exalted feats, but if you took VoP at first you would have four, and if you took it at third you would have two. Either way, I suspect that your effective feat value is significantly less than what you've listed there, because most exalted feats are not good. You could get reasonably close with words of creation though.

[Divide by Zero]

Finally, I'm not really sure where you got your feat total on your VoP benefit listing. You say you have three exalted feats, but if you took VoP at first you would have four, and if you took it at third you would have two. Either way, I suspect that your effective feat value is significantly less than what you've listed there, because most exalted feats are not good. You could get reasonably close with words of creation though.

This, I think, is the second biggest problem with VoP. If there were a better selection of Exalted feats, it might actually be sort of viable on more classes. But the last time I built a VoP character, when I got past about level 6 the feats started to become less "What's good for my character?" and more "What's left that I meet the prerequisites for and doesn't actually hinder my character more than it helps?" They could have at least put the [Exalted] tag on more of the feats that were already in the book.

[eggynack]

This, I think, is the second biggest problem with VoP. If there were a better selection of Exalted feats, it might actually be sort of viable on more classes. But the last time I built a VoP character, when I got past about level 6 the feats started to become less "What's good for my character?" and more "What's left that I meet the prerequisites for and doesn't actually hinder my character more than it helps?" They could have at least put the [Exalted] tag on more of the feats that were already in the book.
Yeah, druids do pretty well with it, able to take not-horrible feats longer than most, but you're going to absolutely run out at some point, and even at early levels, you're going to pick up some feats that are significantly worse than serious druid feats.

[Chronos]

It'd go a long way to fixing VoP to just make exalted feats that replicate those necessary effects you'd get from items. Like, would there really be any problem with an exalted feat that gave you angelic wings? If you want to make it hard to get, give it a prerequisite of "4 other exalted feats", or whatever, and it'd still be easily available to an ascetic.

[Pan151]

I'd much rather have those items on a bruiser as well.

Well, then we have different builds in mind, so we're gonna want different things by default.



I'd also rather have the ring of the beast, even on a bruiser. Just because I'm mostly getting up close and personal with my enemies, doesn't mean I want to sacrifice all of my summoning abilities, and even a limited quantity of summoning benefits a whole hell of a lot from summoning access. Summoning is likely a way better way of acting as a melee bruiser as well, so focusing on summoning probably allows me to outperform your VoP majig. Druids benefit a lot from keeping their options open, because it costs just about nothing to remember that you can convert one of your melee spells into a giant crocodile.

I said it already and I'll say it again: if I wanted to build a summoner then I would build a damn summoner. If your only response to that is that summoners are more optimal then let me tell you what's even more optimal: Pun Pun. Pun Pun is the most optimal build for everything, so we might as well just suggest that instead every time someone makes a specific build for a specific concept, right? Right?

I'm not saying that VoP is good It isn't, not by a long stretch. But it still is optimal in certain few situations - for example, try to buy items that go on somebody that frequently wildshapes into a Will o Wisp, see what happens.

[eggynack]

Well, then we have different builds in mind, so we're gonna want different things by default.
Not really. Both characters are beating face. Mine is just doing so with some more versatile offenses and defenses.

I said it already and I'll say it again: if I wanted to build a summoner then I would build a damn summoner. If your only response to that is that summoners are more optimal then let me tell you what's even more optimal: Pun Pun. Pun Pun is the most optimal build for everything, so we might as well just suggest that instead every time someone makes a specific build for a specific concept, right? Right?
It's not about being a summoner. It's about keeping your options open, which is something that druids benefit greatly from. A ring of the beast is fantastic if you ever plan to summon, and if you're a druid, you should find a way to fit that in at some point. You could always replace it with more metamagic rods, if you're really so opposed to awesomeness. A good and stable ring is a nice thing to have in general though.


I'm not saying that VoP is good It isn't, not by a long stretch. But it still is optimal in certain few situations - for example, try to buy items that go on somebody that frequently wildshapes into a Will o Wisp, see what happens.
If I really want to do that, which seems unlikely as an all-time form with the power level of other aberration forms, I'd probably just run my items off of the raiment of the stormwalker. That stuff absorbs and just keeps working fine. Thus, I will see what happens, and it will be awesome.

[Pan151]

Not really. Both characters are beating face. Mine is just doing so with some more versatile offenses and defenses.

I am a Druid. I can still summon stuff and use battlefield control and do all other things every bit as well as any druid can. I don't need any more versatility.

And once again, if I wanted to build in such a way as to maximise versatility I WOULD DO SO. Is it so damn hard to understand that some people want to optimise for different things than you? Is your scope so narrow that you cannot even fathom that someone may want to optimise for 1v1 combat rather than all around maximum power? Is it his so freaking hard to understand that you keep repeating the same thing again and again and again?...


A ring of the beast is fantastic if you ever plan to summon, and if you're a druid, you should find a way to fit that in at some point. You could always replace it with more metamagic rods, if you're really so opposed to awesomeness. A good and stable ring is a nice thing to have in general though.


I can't use the ring when I'm wildshaped into a Will o' Wisp. I can't use the ring when I'm wildshaped into a Rukanyr. Even with forms that can make use of items, the wilding clasp cost is prohibitive until lv10+ Before you answer me yet again with "make a different build than the one you want, because your build sucks and I know better than you" first find me a way to solve this problem without VoP. One that doesn't involve a different character concept altogether, unlike all that you've posted so far...

[eggynack]

I am a Druid. I can still summon stuff and use battlefield control and do all other things every bit as well as any druid can. I don't need any more versatility.
It's really more about working with your class features to make them even better, and that naturally leads to an increase in versatility. Because you can't summon or buff as well as any druid can, because that other druid has items that make that stuff better.


And once again, if I wanted to build in such a way as to maximise versatility I WOULD DO SO. Is it so damn hard to understand that some people want to optimise for different things than you? Is your scope so narrow that you cannot even fathom that someone may want to optimise for 1v1 combat rather than all around maximum power? Is it his so freaking hard to understand that you keep repeating the same thing again and again and again?...
I really don't understand your problem here. If you want to optimize for 1v1 combat, then you're still better without VoP. If you want to brawl, still better with VoP. If you just fundamentally can't deal with any bonuses that aren't purely numerical, then I suppose VoP is the way to go, but that seems like a really silly limit to me.



I can't use the ring when I'm wildshaped into a Will o' Wisp. I can't use the ring when I'm wildshaped into a Rukanyr. Even with forms that can make use of items, the wilding clasp cost is prohibitive until lv10+ Before you answer me yet again with "make a different build than the one you want, because your build sucks and I know better than you" first find me a way to solve this problem without VoP. One that doesn't involve a different character concept altogether, unlike all that you've posted so far...
If you really want a will-o'-wisp or rukanyr, I've already cited ways around those issues. I'm not sure why you'd particularly want to be a rukanyr though. Seems mediocre. Not bad, but you could do better. Beyond that, metamagic rods of extend spell work perfectly fine with any wild shape issues, and might just be better than VoP on their own. You're being oddly defensive here, incidentally. I haven't made any substantial changes to the basic druid idea, beyond suggesting that summoning occasionally is helpful. I didn't even suggest the use of a single summoning feat. You should have one though, cause they're cheap and powerful, and don't detract much from the rest of the build.

[Azoth]

Guys start a new thread if you want to keep arguing about Druid's with VOP and whether it is worth it. This guy is asking for build advice on a VOP SWORDSAGE.

*Back on Point*

I haven't seen any specific builds that use it, but it should be viable in a non hi-op game. You will be more reliant on your party casters to help you out with things like flight, FoM, and the like. There are a few races or templates you can pick up to help in a few areas though.

For the armor thing, you could try seeing if your DM will let you get by as counting your clothing as a suit of armor that gives +0 AC bonus with no max dex bonus. This is basing off the logic that a normal set of clothing is a valid target for Magiv Vestment which will give it an enhancement bonus to Armor Class.

Were you looking to go straight swordsage or are dips/prcs allowed?

[atemu1234]

Guys start a new thread if you want to keep arguing about Druid's with VOP and whether it is worth it. This guy is asking for build advice on a VOP SWORDSAGE.

*Back on Point*

I haven't seen any specific builds that use it, but it should be viable in a non hi-op game. You will be more reliant on your party casters to help you out with things like flight, FoM, and the like. There are a few races or templates you can pick up to help in a few areas though.

For the armor thing, you could try seeing if your DM will let you get by as counting your clothing as a suit of armor that gives +0 AC bonus with no max dex bonus. This is basing off the logic that a normal set of clothing is a valid target for Magiv Vestment which will give it an enhancement bonus to Armor Class.

Were you looking to go straight swordsage or are dips/prcs allowed?

I didn't originally start this thread with the intention for builds (I think) but I'd like to see a couple. Use anything first party from 3e, 3.5 or PF and maybe we could make something cool :smallbiggrin:.

[emeraldstreak]

I didn't originally start this thread with the intention for builds (I think) but I'd like to see a couple. Use anything first party from 3e, 3.5 or PF and maybe we could make something cool :smallbiggrin:.

VoP or no VoP

1) get at least 12d8 in base damage

2) get maneuvers

[Blackhawk748]

Id actually recommend being a Githzerai if your gonna do this, the permanent Inertial Armor+the (admittedly crappy) SR+ the +6 to Dex means that your AC at least wont suck, so that helps a bit. Then just build an Unarmed Swordsage/Ninja/Shadowsun Ninja and have fun and profit.

[Theomniadept]

Reminds me of a build I created. Never got it fully critiqued, but the idea was that the character was a nudist.

Lawful Good Alignment, Lesser Aasimar race
Monk 2/Paladin 2/Pious Templar 1/Apostle of Peace 1/Swordsage 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10

Basically, be naked and cast spells while doing unarmed shenanigans, like combining Intuitive Strike (the feat) with Intuitive Strike (the maneuver) for a really intuitive strike.