summoning. 3.5

[carrdrivesyou]

Was wondering if there was a summoning build that is utterly broken. Just summon up an army out of nothing in a turn. Any ideas?

[Umbranar]

The Malconvoker is a pretty neat class as a summoner. Tricking evil outsiders, especially devils, is quiet funny.

[eggynack]

Well, there's always druid-style multi-turn summoning tech. First go shifter, using the first shifter druid substitution level, gaining rapid summoning eventually. Second, pick up aberration wild shape, using nilshai form from unapproachable east in combination with enhance wild shape for an extra standard every round. A standard in which you can summon something, cause rapid summoning. Third, get a belt of battle, occasionally boosting that standard action/round count to three.

Finally, summon the best stuff you can, three times in a round. For my money, I'd go for rashemi elemental summoning, probably combined with a ring of the beast, allowing me to summon 3d4+3 huge orglashes, each with a 15d6 cone of cold, out of 7th level slots. Other fun maneuvers include SNA VI for a massive pile of oreads, earthquakes in hand, or even greenbound templated whatevers for walls of thorns as far as the eye can see. For bonus points, toss in a metamagic rod of maximize spell of some variety, turning that 3d4+3 into a straight 15. That's sufficiently army-like, I think.

Edit: Also, round two is two more summoning spells, full of whatever deliciousness you like. If you really want to be tricky, tossing out some standard animals and then animal growthing the lot of them sounds like a bunch of fun.

Double-edit: Of course, there's also planar shepherd dal quor whatever shenanigans, and that can get you enough rounds to convert massive piles of spells into monsters, but it just feels like way too much. You'll get your army, don't get me wrong, but it'll cost you a bit of your heart to do it.

[Andezzar]

The Malconvoker is a pretty neat class as a summoner. Tricking evil outsiders, especially devils, is quiet funny.Malconvoker is a nice class, but hardly broken. The druid shenanigans above are much more of a problem.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The broken you're looking for would be casting Gate for a Solar, ordering it to Gate in another Solar, tell it to follower your orders, and then go fight your enemies. Tell the second Solar to Gate in another Solar, tell it to follower your orders, and then go fight your enemies. Tell the next Solar to Gate in another Solar, tell it to follower your orders, and then go fight your enemies. Repeat as often as necessary. That's just one spell, and you won't have it until ~15th level with moderate shenanigans/items.

Generally summoning isn't broken, but a Druid can come pretty close. Get Greenbound Summoning from LEoF and your SNA I can get a Greenbound Dire Rat whcih can immediately use its Wall of Thorns spell-like ability to completely screw multiple opponents by dropping it on top of them. Get a Ring of the Beast in CC and your SNA spells count as the next higher level for what they can summon, so your SNA I can get a Greenbound Dire Bat or multiple rats. Get Ashbound in ECS to double your summons' durations and give them a bonus to attack. Take the Summon Elemental reserve feat in CM to summon a small elemental at will, which can be used to Nodwick traps, scout ahead (Earth Glide), douse fires, etc. Get Versatile Spellcaster in RotD so you can spend two of your highest level prepared spells to cast a SNA of one higher level, which effectively increases the highest level SNA you can cast by one for purposes of the Ring of the Beast and Summon Elemental.

[Inevitability]

There's a binder vestige that lets you summon 1 creature/5 rounds. It is strong enough to push binders up a tier. And as tier 2 is generally considered where the 'broken' stuff is, I'd say it qualifies as 'broken'. Not sure about 'utterly' though.

[bekeleven]

For druid summoners I like Shifter Druid 9/Moonspeaker 6/Paragnostic Apostle 3/Contemplative 1. You need 9 druid levels + natural bond to get your shifter companion to give you rapid summons. Take greenbound, ashbound, beckon the frozen, and metamagic school focus (Conjuration). Contemplative gives you the summoning domain, paragnostic apostle gives call of worlds, divine understanding (summoner), and mind over body which goes well with imbued summoning. If you use an ehlonna masterwork holy symbol+ring of the beast, this build gives you free double extend, summoning as a standard, augmented, frozen, greenbound, +3/Hit, and a caster level of 23 on summon monster (20 on nature's ally).

If you want a cleric summoner, I build Clostered Cleric 5/Paragnostic Apostle 2/Thaumaturgist 35/Malconvoker 8 with mostly the same stuff, but you have to take rapid spell as well. Take residual magic, it comboes well with Divine Metamagic. For this one I'd take extraordinary concentration and Rashemi Elemental Summoning, in addition to many of the feats mentioned above. Grants free double extend when summoning evil things, residual buffs, and malconvoker buffs. Besides evil outsiders, elementals in particular get impressive.

As for a wizard, I'd probably go Conjurer 3 (Rapid Summons/Enhanced Summons ACF)/Master Specialist 2/Incantatrix 10/Halruaan Elder 4/Malconvoker 1. This is just a build based around quickening and extending all the summon monster casts, although it can empower cheaply as well. I recommend taking Summon Elemental, which gives some fun utility, but it's to taste. The less cheesy build is Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/Malconvoker 5/Paragnostic Apostle 2, which trades in massive metamagics for feats like beckon the frozen and nexus method.

If you want a less cheesy, straightforward Sorc build, Go for Sorc 5 (Metamagic Specialist at 1, Dragonblood at 4, Domain Access/Summoner at 5), dip mindbender 1, then fill the rest of your levels with paragnostic apostle 4/Malconvoker 9/Anything 1. Take the standard augment summoning/rapid/etc, try and fit in infernal sorc heritage if possible, and take quicken SLA to use with your dragonblood spell-like. CL24 summoning demons, CL22 other summon monsters, and all sorts of buffs.

I have the builds written out, but they need some tweaking. Going through them now I spotted some errors.

[Divide by Zero]

There's a binder vestige that lets you summon 1 creature/5 rounds. It is strong enough to push binders up a tier. And as tier 2 is generally considered where the 'broken' stuff is, I'd say it qualifies as 'broken'. Not sure about 'utterly' though.

Though that's less because summoning is inherently broken, and more because higher level summons can give you access to a lot of other spell effects (something that's less of a big deal on classes that already have access to a lot of those spells).

[ahenobarbi]

Conjurer ACF let's you summon as a standard action. Master Specialist allows you to quicken conjuration spells for free. Malconvoker gives you an extra summon (and buffs your summons) as long as you summon evil creatures. Summoning variant form DMG let's you roll stats for your summons once a level (you can summon only those where you rolled well). Combine all that and you can summon 4 quite buffed summons a round (using two slots) from whichever level is available to you.

Or go Shadowcraft Mage. Heighten spell to as high as possible +1 (Earth spell) +1 (Sanctum spell + Acorn of Far Travel) and get summons one level higher than regular wizards.

[eggynack]

For druid summoners I like Shifter Druid 9/Moonspeaker 6/Paragnostic Apostle 3/Contemplative 1. You need 9 druid levels + natural bond to get your shifter companion to give you rapid summons. Take greenbound, ashbound, beckon the frozen, and metamagic school focus (Conjuration). Contemplative gives you the summoning domain, paragnostic apostle gives call of worlds, divine understanding (summoner), and mind over body which goes well with imbued summoning. If you use an ehlonna masterwork holy symbol+ring of the beast, this build gives you free double extend, summoning as a standard, augmented, frozen, greenbound, +3/Hit, and a caster level of 23 on summon monster (20 on nature's ally).
I keep looking at paragnostic apostle as a potential druid prestige class, and it just doesn't feel like it does very much. It's just a big pile of kinda underwhelming abilities that might make summoning better in really marginal ways. Shifter integration (ability bonus) also doesn't seem worth spending two full levels away from beast spirit and other random abilities. Finally, I'm pretty sure that natural bond doesn't work at all with beast spirit. Yes, beast spirit is based on the thing that natural bond advances, but that doesn't mean that natural bond necessarily advances it. I don't even think that standard animal companion advancement particularly works. As a result, the build I'd go with would probably be more like druid 12/moonspeaker 4/druid 4, or maybe druid 12/moonspeaker 4/holt warden 1/contemplative 1/druid 2, or some alternate arrangement of those levels.

[bekeleven]

NET RESULT:
Cast Summon Nature's Ally:
- Free Double Extend
- As a Standard Action
- Augmented
- Frozen
- Greenbound
- +3/Hit
- 3/Day Free Imbue
- +HD=CL
Cast Summon Monster 1/Spell Level/Day (Domain)
CL: 20 (SNA), 23 (SM)
That's what my druid build gives, assuming natural bond works of course. I Just stuck shifter integration in at level 18 for the extra wisdom granting bonus spells; the later levels of the build were more arbitrary. If natural bond is a no-go, replace Moonspeaker 2/Paragnostic Apostle 1 with Druid 3.

[eggynack]

That's what my druid build gives, assuming natural bond works of course. I Just stuck shifter integration in at level 18 for the extra wisdom granting bonus spells; the later levels of the build were more arbitrary. If natural bond is a no-go, replace Moonspeaker 2/Paragnostic Apostle 1 with Druid 3.
Most of the good stuff you have listed, which I don't think includes imbued summoning, incidentally (you're spending two feats on it, and it's not especially good), doesn't come from the sources I was criticizing. You don't particularly need increased CL on a summons, especially at that level, and neither do you really need it on that sort of buff. Fast healing on summons might be the best thing you get out of the stack, and lore is alright, but the five levels I mentioned could probably go elsewhere and do more.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Most of the good stuff you have listed, which I don't think includes imbued summoning, incidentally (you're spending two feats on it, and it's not especially good), doesn't come from the sources I was criticizing. You don't particularly need increased CL on a summons, especially at that level, and neither do you really need it on that sort of buff. Fast healing on summons might be the best thing you get out of the stack, and lore is alright, but the five levels I mentioned could probably go elsewhere and do more.

I agree that Imbued Summoning isn't really worth a feat. The same applies to Beckon the Frozen with it's high requirements and minimal benefit. Even Augment Summoning is generally skippable unless you get it free with Moonspeaker or something like that.
In general you can be a very successful summoner just with Greenbound or Rashemi, Ashbound and a way to reduce casting time to less than 1 round. The other feats are probably better spent broadening your options instead of getting a minimal increase to your summons, but YMMV.
I personally like Dragon Wild Shape, but i'm also generally allowed dragons from any official source. Free immunities as the situation demands, superior flight options, True Seeing, Tongues, Plane Shift and Invisibility at will (among other things), some nifty supernatural abilities and a wide selection of decent breath weapons (look for the non-damage ones). That's a lot more valuable than +1d6 cold damage for your summons imo.

I'd also argue that at higher levels Rashemi Elemental Summoning is superior to Greenbound Summoning in most situations. The strongest animal you're going to get is probably the Dire Tiger at SNA VII. At the same level you can get a Greater Air, Fire, Water or Earth Elemental or a Huge Storm Elemental, both of which are superior.

On the topic of dips i've recently come to appreciate a 1 level dip into Hierophant. The requirements are easy if you're getting into Contemplative anyway and Power of Nature really lets you beef up your animal companion (or better yet, Urban Companion), among others. You lose a level of spell progression but at higher levels i feel it's a decent tradeoff, provided you use it intelligently.

[eggynack]

I agree that Imbued Summoning isn't really worth a feat. The same applies to Beckon the Frozen with it's high requirements and minimal benefit. Even Augment Summoning is generally skippable unless you get it free with Moonspeaker or something like that.
It's especially true in this case, as free augment summoning from moonspeaker means that you have to take spell focus (conjuration) as a feat tax for imbued summoning.


Plane Shift
Where're you pulling plane shift from? My understanding is that they only get a really limited version of that ability that doesn't do most of what you'd want it to.


On the topic of dips i've recently come to appreciate a 1 level dip into Hierophant. The requirements are easy if you're getting into Contemplative anyway and Power of Nature really lets you beef up your animal companion (or better yet, Urban Companion), among others. You lose a level of spell progression but at higher levels i feel it's a decent tradeoff, provided you use it intelligently.
I suppose it's plausible after level 17. Tossing arbitrary chunks of wild shape at party members sounds awesome. You can even spread the joy among a bunch of creatures, counting on massive duration and high number of uses to take you through the day. Seems nifty.

[bekeleven]

Imbued summoning lets you cast things like fly or invisibility on your summons with no action. How is this bad?

And caster level actually helps more with that build. With a higher CL and double extend, you can clear out an entire dungeon before your first casting expires (and the fast healing keeps them up for it).

[eggynack]

Imbued summoning lets you cast things like fly or invisibility on your summons with no action. How is this bad?
Where are ya getting fly and invisibility? Seems like a not-druid thing, unless you're pulling something. Overall, the buff you're getting doesn't seem especially better than the buff provided by just using a higher level summons. Even with the most basic usage, there's a high chance that I'd rather have a pair of giant crocodiles than one flying giant crocodile, especially when you're eating slots for the privilege.


And caster level actually helps more with that build. With a higher CL and double extend, you can clear out an entire dungeon before your first casting expires (and the fast healing keeps them up for it).

It helps a bit, but we're talking about a few rounds here. Not the most relevant thing in the grand scheme of things. This stuff is obviously better than nothing, but it doesn't seem to be the best way to use your levels.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Where're you pulling plane shift from? My understanding is that they only get a really limited version of that ability that doesn't do most of what you'd want it to.
Gem Dragons can travel between the Inner Planes and the Material, Ectoplasmic Dragons (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20040123a) can shift between the Material and the Astral Plane. Not quite full Plane Shift but it's free and pretty much unlimited. You can take your party with you in a Portable Hole or something like that if you need to.


I suppose it's plausible after level 17. Tossing arbitrary chunks of wild shape at party members sounds awesome. You can even spread the joy among a bunch of creatures, counting on massive duration and high number of uses to take you through the day. Seems nifty.
Yeah, it's not too great at lower levels. Once you get enough WS uses and huge forms it really starts getting good though. Since you're probably going to take it after Contemplative anyway it's not much of a problem. Waiting until 18 or later keeps you from delaying spell access but it can be worth it earlier if you want an easy boost for your companion. It mostly depends on the books you get access to.

A companion wildshaped into an Ironmaw with Combat Reflexes/Mage Slayer and a little buffed Dex is pretty nifty, especially if you have an Urban Companion that's otherwise not that useful in combat. It also neatly solves the problem of getting huge or larger companions into smaller dungeons.


Imbued summoning lets you cast things like fly or invisibility on your summons with no action. How is this bad?

And caster level actually helps more with that build. With a higher CL and double extend, you can clear out an entire dungeon before your first casting expires (and the fast healing keeps them up for it).

I doubt you can finish an entire dungeon in under 4 minutes. Even with Circle Magic and Ashbound you're still only getting 8 minutes out of your summons. In most games i've been in the periods between battles are longer than that. If you actually need the time sometimes i'd rather spend some money on a generic CL increaser like a Bead of Karma or Ankh of Ascension.

[eggynack]

Gem Dragons can travel between the Inner Planes and the Material, Ectoplasmic Dragons (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20040123a) can shift between the Material and the Astral Plane. Not quite full Plane Shift but it's free and pretty much unlimited. You can take your party with you in a Portable Hole or something like that if you need to.
I knew about gem dragons, but I don't think I've seen ectoplasmic before. Seems pretty nifty, and obviously more consistent, if less accessible, compared to the animate with the spirit for a movanic deva method.

[Prime32]

Was wondering if there was a summoning build that is utterly broken. Just summon up an army out of nothing in a turn. Any ideas?Any character with a candle of invocation.

[bekeleven]

Ashbound + Moonspeaker + Extend means you're multiplying by 2 three times, which is 80 rounds at CL 20. Even without extend you get 60 rounds, no metamagic at all. (more if durations don't obey D&D multiplication, but I'm guessing they do.)

[Divide by Zero]

Ashbound + Moonspeaker + Extend means you're multiplying by 2 three times, which is 80 rounds at CL 20. Even without extend you get 60 rounds, no metamagic at all. (more if durations don't obey D&D multiplication, but I'm guessing they do.)


When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice).

Since time is a real-world value, I assume it would fall under this rule.

[bekeleven]

Well, in that case, ashbound + moonspeaker = 80, extended = 160, or 16 minutes. Easily enough for a dungeon blitz.

Edited to add: Imbued can give water breathing, bite of the werewolf, swift fly. blindsight, charge of the triceratops, giant's wrath (for summon monsters), primal form, snakebite, or of course protection from energy. And with residual magic you can do it twice for the slot.

[eggynack]

water breathing
Most levels already have aquatic options, and they're actually often better than their landlubbing equivalents.

bite of the werewolf
Seems like you get comparable or better buffs with a monster of a higher level.

swift fly
Are you really using so many swift actions that you need to save one using an increase in spell level? Also, more importantly, personal range.

blindsight
This might be the best on this list, actually, but it doesn't seem worth two feats, a spell, and a spell level.

charge of the triceratops
As was the case with bite, higher level animals have comparable improvements.

giant's wrath (for summon monsters), primal form, snakebite
Personal range again.

protection from energy
This one just seems really marginal.

And with residual magic you can do it twice for the slot.
Do what twice for what? The summons is the thing being modified, and the slot cost isn't related to the spell level boost.

Basically, the costs here are just way too high. The benefit of a 3rd or lower level spell cast on a summons are rarely significantly greater than the benefit of a summons one level higher, and when you combine that fact with the slot cost, and the feat cost, imbued summoning isn't particularly useful.

[ahenobarbi]

Any character with a candle of invocation.

Good one :smallsmile:

[sleepyphoenixx]

Does anyone really get through a proper dungeon in 16 minutes or less? Normally that takes a few hours unless it's a very small dungeon or your DM doesn't let time pass between combats.


Basically, the costs here are just way too high. The benefit of a 3rd or lower level spell cast on a summons are rarely significantly greater than the benefit of a summons one level higher, and when you combine that fact with the slot cost, and the feat cost, imbued summoning isn't particularly useful.

You can also get nearly the same benefit for 3100gp (Summoners Totem, MIC) instead of spending 2 feats.

[eggynack]

You can also get nearly the same benefit for 3100gp (Summoners Totem, MIC) instead of spending 2 feats.
You're apparently not even limited to touch range, if that's worth anything. Probably not. Still, the only downsides are that you lose your swift, and that it takes up a held item slot, but the big low-cost advantage more than makes up for it. Also, no metamagic adjustment, which is a crazy big deal. Very cool stuff.

[SiuiS]

Doesn't the Nar demonbinder allow you to toss out pole balls of summoned monsters?