Yet Another Way To Enter Beholder Mage (but does it work?)

[Inevitability]

So, I just got an idea that may work:

Firstly, you should be either a human or strongheart halfling. You're going to need 4 feats to pull this off. You should have at least 13 wisdom. Strength and dexterity can be dumped for all you care, but intelligence is very important. Constitution and charisma should be kept at a reasonable level.

Now, take a level in whatever class you like. I recommend monk, just for the sheer irony of it. Have the Divine Minion template, being a divine minion of Anhur, Hathor, Isis, Nephthys, Sebek, or Thoth.

Your feats should be:

-Aberration Blood
-Aberration Wild Shape
-Assume Supernatural Ability
-Assume Supernatural Ability

Next, wild shape into a beholder. Stab yourself with a sharp object until your central eye is poked out. You should now qualify for Beholder Mage, as long as you don't revert back out of wildshape.



So... does this work?

[Phelix-Mu]

The crux of the matter, assuming I understand your conceit, is whether there is, in fact, any relation between the class feature Wild Shape and the Divine Minion special ability called Fast Wild Shape.

And I am afraid that the idiots at WotC may have misled you. There is no innate connection between the two features due to the similarity in naming. Unless Fast Wild Shape explicitly works with Wild Shape expansion feats, then it doesn't. A permissive DM may allow it quite reasonably (except that this isn't a particularly reasonably application :smallwink: ), but I don't think this holds together.

I may be wrong, though. You may want to link Divine Minion so ppl can decide for themselves.

[Chronos]

The two big catches with any method for qualifying for monster classes:

First, it's never made clear what it means to "be a _____", so it's not clear just which form-changing magics grant that quality. You can certainly take on the form of a beholder or illithid or whatever, but is the form all it takes?

Second, it's also never made clear at what point you gain that creature's LA. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that it's at the same point that you count as being one. In which case, you might be able to make yourself eligible to take Beholder Mage levels, but since a beholder has an LA of --, doing so is pointless, as you'll have lost any way of leveling up to take the class, short of DM fiat.

[Necroticplague]

The crux of the matter, assuming I understand your conceit, is whether there is, in fact, any relation between the class feature Wild Shape and the Divine Minion special ability called Fast Wild Shape.

And I am afraid that the idiots at WotC may have misled you. There is no innate connection between the two features due to the similarity in naming. Unless Fast Wild Shape explicitly works with Wild Shape expansion feats, then it doesn't. A permissive DM may allow it quite reasonably (except that this isn't a particularly reasonably application :smallwink: ), but I don't think this holds together.

I may be wrong, though. You may want to link Divine Minion so ppl can decide for themselves.

Well, it depends on the exact wording of what the wildshape-expanding feat does. Part of the divine minion ability is "wild shape as an 11th level druid", so there actually is some connection. And Abberrant Wild Shape only requires "wild shape ability". Not Wild Shape class feature.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, it depends on the exact wording of what the wildshape-expanding feat does. Part of the divine minion ability is "wild shape as an 11th level druid", so there actually is some connection. And Abberrant Wild Shape only requires "wild shape ability". Not Wild Shape class feature.

I think some of it boils down to semantics, but the rules in D&D semantics don't seem to treat this favorably.

Question: What ability does Divine Minion grant?

Answer: Fast Wild Shape.

Question: Is the ability Fast Wild Shape = Wild Shape ability?

Answer: No, Fast Wild Shape grants an effect that works just like Wild Shape, but it isn't called Wild Shape, and therefor isn't subject to effects that modify or improve Wild Shape.

I'm not saying this is ironclad, and that is part of the reason that I was wanting a link to the template here so we could quote from it more easily. My point is simply that the game doesn't inherently recognize the similarity in naming schemes, and that you can't therefor grandfather in Wild Shape stuff to Fast Wild Shape stuff.

I'm pretty sure a DM could rule either way and not be deemed crazy. Unless they were ruling to allow unusual entry to Beholder Mage, which, while extremely interesting, is pretty damn crazy.

[Necroticplague]

I think some of it boils down to semantics, but the rules in D&D semantics don't seem to treat this favorably.

Question: What ability does Divine Minion grant?

Answer: Fast Wild Shape.

Question: Is the ability Fast Wild Shape = Wild Shape ability?

Answer: No, Fast Wild Shape grants an effect that works just like Wild Shape, but it isn't called Wild Shape, and therefor isn't subject to effects that modify or improve Wild Shape.

I'm not saying this is ironclad, and that is part of the reason that I was wanting a link to the template here so we could quote from it more easily. My point is simply that the game doesn't inherently recognize the similarity in naming schemes, and that you can't therefor grandfather in Wild Shape stuff to Fast Wild Shape stuff.

I'm pretty sure a DM could rule either way and not be deemed crazy. Unless they were ruling to allow unusual entry to Beholder Mage, which, while extremely interesting, is pretty damn crazy.

You only look at the surface level of "fast wild shape" . Since you seem to want it posted, here's a link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) for those who don't wanna do a quick google search. So looking a bit deeper,it goes something like this:

Question: What ability does Divine Minion grant?

Answer: Fast Wild Shape.

Follow-up:And what does that do?

Answer: It allows me to "wild shape as an 11th-level druid".

Thus, I have a wild shape ability (of an 11th level druid), thus qualify.

[Inevitability]

The two big catches with any method for qualifying for monster classes:

First, it's never made clear what it means to "be a _____", so it's not clear just which form-changing magics grant that quality. You can certainly take on the form of a beholder or illithid or whatever, but is the form all it takes?

Second, it's also never made clear at what point you gain that creature's LA. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that it's at the same point that you count as being one. In which case, you might be able to make yourself eligible to take Beholder Mage levels, but since a beholder has an LA of --, doing so is pointless, as you'll have lost any way of leveling up to take the class, short of DM fiat.

1. I'm going with common sense here. If you look like a Beholder, can use a Beholder's abilities, and think and act like a Beholder (halfway through 2nd level, you should be able to purcharge a mindrape) I'd say you are, in fact, a Beholder.

2. Well, in that case, I guess all druid characters would be taken over by the GM the moment they start Wildshaping, as they simply do not have a playable LA anymore.

[Phelix-Mu]

Most of the form-altering stuff grants you "the form of a creature." I would say that this is a distinction from actually being a creature, as is substantiated by the mountain of rules underlying just what you get and what you don't get from the effect (polymorph and wild shape are pretty darn complicated, especially if we consider the nuanced changes that occurred over time).

So, personally, I would say that having the form does not make you a beholder, just someone borrowing that form. I look at the character sheet. I look at the MM entry "Beholder." Same? No. A bit of an oversimplification, to be sure, but it does cut down a bit on shenanigans. Assuming that is a goal.:smallwink: