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View Full Version : Dark Chaos shuffle and feat-granting things



.Zero
2014-09-06, 02:46 PM
We all know the Dark Chaos shuffle cheese, but i'd like to know how does it interact with temporary feats granted by things like the Heroics spell or the Feat Leech power.
Let's say i cast Heroics on myself and then i do the shuffle, what would happen? The most simple thing i can think of is that the Heroics' shuffled feat is no longer a fighter feat, but just any feat i qualify for, but does that feat disappear whith the spell when it expires? Or does the shuffle generate an arbitrarily high number of feat slots? Common sense just screams yes to the former and no to the latter, but what's the RAW point of view?

Also, does multiple castings of Heroics lead to infinite feat cheese?

The point of this thread is trying to maximize the use of the shuffle as a non-elf (or similar) race and without ending in infinite loops. Some of you could also suggest that the first level of Swordsage gives you things like weapon focus six times, but i think it doesn't work, per the Discipline Focus text: "[...]you gain the benefit of the Weapon Focus feat[...]" which i think is quite different from things like "you gain the feat [insert feat name here]".
Persistent Heroics is a thing, but i think someone will just do better persisting other useful spells.

So, what's your thoughts?

sleepyphoenixx
2014-09-06, 02:52 PM
There is no explicit RAW on that. The designers likely never considered it.
Since both common sense and game balance are arguments for losing the feat when Heroics ends and the only argument against this is horrible munchkinry i really don't see much of a contest here.

A reasonable houserule for the Dark Chaos spells is that you can only switch to a feat you could actually have selected in place of the feat you're switching. So no switching racial bonus feats, fighter feats to non-fighter feats or other specific feats for anything you want.

Divide by Zero
2014-09-06, 03:12 PM
A reasonable houserule for the Dark Chaos spells is that you can only switch to a feat you could actually have selected in place of the feat you're switching. So no switching racial bonus feats, fighter feats to non-fighter feats or other specific feats for anything you want.

I would consider making an exception for VoP bonus feats, though, just because that might actually make it worth taking. With the caveat that you still lose them if you break the vow, of course.

torrasque666
2014-09-06, 03:53 PM
A reasonable houserule for the Dark Chaos spells is that you can only switch to a feat you could actually have selected in place of the feat you're switching. So no switching racial bonus feats, fighter feats to non-fighter feats or other specific feats for anything you want.

This was our solution when we had a character who was using Shadowcraft Mage shenanigans to cast miracle and switch all his feats around for better ones.

Chronos
2014-09-06, 05:27 PM
Yeah, that's how I would rule it, too. Although... are there actually any abyssal heritor feats which can be taken as fighter bonus feats? If not, it'd be impossible to change a fighter's feats at all.