Illusion question 3.5 / PF

[elonin]

Just how "real" are illusions? According to some DM's and writings if you fail (or never attempt) a save to disbelieve then they seem to be substantial. Are Will-e-cyote effects in effect for those who fail checks to disbelieve illusions?

For example can an illusory floor keep you from falling? One DM ruled that a character of mine who was riding a trained (but not controlled) mountain lion and was on a branch that didn't exist (cat failed its save). Someone had made an illusion of a tree that covered a pillar.

[Nettlekid]

Illusions (without the [Shadow] subtype) are not real at all. They are like cartoon mirages. If you step onto illusory floor, you fall through it. At that time, you automatically disbelieve the illusion. You don't just make a Will save for disbelief a single time; any pertinent interaction gets a new one. If you swing at an illusory foe and miss, you get a save. If the foe then swings at you and misses, you'd get another save. If given incontrovertible proof that the illusion is indeed an illusion (like poking a stick through the fake floor, or throwing a stone through a fake person) then it's automatically disbelieved.

[Shadow] Illusions are a little trickier because they are infused with shadowstuff to make them more real. Famously, the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation line makes an illusion of spells like Fireball or Wall of Stone, and while disbelieving them lessens the effect, they're still real enough to do damage. Believing them treats them as real in all respects, much like that branch that the lion believed.

[Forrestfire]

It depends on the illusion, really. Many illusions, like the Silent Image line, are completely insubstantial. A Silent Image floor will not save you from falling, even if you disbelieve.




Figments: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.
Glamers: A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

Patterns: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.

Phantasms: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (It’s all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene don’t notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.

Shadows: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.


Only an illusion that specifies that it's partially real will actually do things to the real world other than show up or affect minds. If you believe in a [Shadow] effect, it will be treated as real. Other illusions will not be.

[Jeff the Green]

Most everything Nettlekid says is true, but proof isn't always sufficient to automatically disbelieve the illusion. The Chains of Disbelief (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#chainsofDisbelief) ACF for illusionists makes incontrovertible proof provide only a new save with a +10 bonus.

[elonin]

Thanks. So it's likely this was more a case of DM who didn't understand the rules.

[Jeff the Green]

I've never played it so this is only hearsay, but I think that in a previous edition that was how illusions worked. But they unequivocally don't work like that now.

[nedz]

I've never played it so this is only hearsay, but I think that in a previous edition that was how illusions worked. But they unequivocally don't work like that now.

Nope — though there was a 2E Cleric spell, Solipsism I think, which worked a bit like this. This was more a case of your faith creating an alternate reality rather than an illusion though.

[Mr Adventurer]

The advice so far is good. There's also the Veil spell, which despite only being a Glamer subschool spell does make the subjects feel like the illusion covering them, and Mirage Arcana, which can create the tactile illusion of whole buildings that weren't there before. I'm not clear exactly what that means.