Discworld VS Tippyverse

[The Vagabond]

So, I'm wondering now, what would happen if you sent the Tippyverse against the entire Discworld (Edit; Or Vice-Versa)? What would happen if RAW went up against Narrative Causality. Would Discworld win? Would it be a apocalyptic story? Would it be a story about how the underdog planet would handle them? Who would win? What would happen to the winner?

Edit: To make it easier;

Lets say that Non-Random Tippyverse magic does not work with Narrative Causality. The Variance gained by the d20 is what Narrative Causality can affect. Non-Constructed, sentient PC Class/Race beings are not affected by Narrative Causality except where stated earlier.

If the tippyverse won, how would they counter Discworld Narrative Causality?

If the Discworld won, how would they counter their lack of Narrative Causality?

[Troacctid]

It would depend on how the author decided to write the story.

[Skysaber]

To know that answer you must understand the natures of both things being compared.

The nature of the Tippyverse is sheer, overwhelming magical power. They would conquer the Diskworld at the moment of first contact.

However, the nature of the Diskworld is quite different. Every time he mentions Ankh-Morpork Terry Pratchett feels obliged to tell us all over again that they've lost track of how many times they've been invaded, taken over, and then simply absorbed their invaders as yet more grist for their endless perverse culture. They even publish tourist pamphlets entitled "So you've conquered Ankh-Morpork."

The Diskworld is also contagious. Contrary rules that come in contact with it tend to get overwritten. In fact, that's a major aspect of it's charm, watching people who expect behavior A (the normal rules) finding their expectations upset in often hilarious ways.

Summary? Tippyverse would win the war, but Diskworld would win the peace.

The Shadesteel golems and warforged upon which the Tippyverse depends for it's police/watch/armed forces would unionize, demand pay, ask for days off, and generally become just as troublesome/lazy and cantankerous as a normal workforce - if you accept 'normal' to mean 'as seen on sitcoms'.

Discworld's Law of Conservation of Reality (which states it takes the same effort to do something with magic as it would to do it mundanely) would end all of the arrangements that make the Tippyverse what it is - the whole concept of wish traps and getting something for nothing is central to it, yet could not exist by Diskworld rules - which, it is important to note, are contagious.

Also that's not the worst case scenario. By Diskworld rules, the force called "magic" is really just a function of the relative absence of reality in the local area, much in the same way that the absence of heat is described as "coldness". A standard Tippyverse embraces and concentrates so much magic that it might just suffer a catastrophic reality failure upon first contact with the Diskworld.

Which, would be very funny, and thus by the laws of Narrative causality, almost guaranteed to happen.

[Sith_Happens]

So basically, everything becomes whales and petunias?:smallwink:

[Giddonihah]

Discworld is always surprisingly strong in VS encounters because Narrative Casualty is basically Storytellers Fiat.

[Flickerdart]

As soon as anything too unpleasant happens, the Octavo's spells can just reset the entire Disc.

[The Glyphstone]

Let's not forget that Tippyverse is so overwhelmingly powerful that almost nothing can have a hope of withstanding it, and that on the Disc, a million-to-one-chance is as close to 'guaranteed' as you can get.

[Emperor Tippy]

There is a reason that Discworld is right up there with Warhammer 40K as places that absolutely no one sane ever wants to be part of. In the Disc's case, it is that the place runs on narrative causality and storytelling conventions.

The Tippyverse looses because most any TV setting should crush horribly.

[Eldan]

I don't think anyone can win against the discworld, period. The best you can do is play by its rules and settle for what that gives you.

[Arbane]

The Tippyverse's immense magic breaks the barriers holding back the Things From the Dungeon Dimensions, which destroy everything.

GAME OVER.

[Gemini476]

The big issue with inserting the Tippyverse into the Discworld - or them opening a planar gateway there or whatever - would probably be some startling similarities with Sourcery. The book, that is, not the concept itself (although Coin could probably stomp most settings by himself so yeah).

Despite appearances, the disc is actually rather low-magic. Literally, that is - there are many creatures, such as dragons, who are simply to magical to be able to exist without outside support on the Disc. Some hole opening into the Tippyverse, or just a bunch of Tippyverse gadgets being brought through, would release a tremendous amount of magical potential unto the Disc.

Which, of course, means that the entire area is going to be sucked into an even bigger hole into the Dungeon Dimensions. Good job, Wizards. Hope you have a quarterstaff handy and think to use it, rather than immediately going for your arcane arsenal.

It might make for an interesting story, truth to be told, but all you end up with is basically "overwhelming undefeatable force invades Discworld, obstinate locals and metaphysical laws lead to minor to major inconveniences for invaders; invaders decide that it isn't really worth it and leave. Obstinate locals cheer at pub."

And this is without considering the gods, who would likely be very interested in this and bring out the big ol' bag of dice as the Tippyverse finds that not all universes have non-interfering deities.

[The Vagabond]

The big issue with inserting the Tippyverse into the Discworld - or them opening a planar gateway there or whatever - would probably be some startling similarities with Sourcery. The book, that is, not the concept itself (although Coin could probably stomp most settings by himself so yeah).

Despite appearances, the disc is actually rather low-magic. Literally, that is - there are many creatures, such as dragons, who are simply to magical to be able to exist without outside support on the Disc. Some hole opening into the Tippyverse, or just a bunch of Tippyverse gadgets being brought through, would release a tremendous amount of magical potential unto the Disc.

Let's just assume, for the sake of not making this a cosmic horror story, that Tippyverse magic and Disc magic are two entirely different things. How would it work out then?

[Eldan]

Then? Narrative causality wins. The wizards minions go on strike and demand fair pay and some underdog takes down the entire wizard infrastructure with his 1d4-1 unlikely friends.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I've never read anything about Discworld, other than what appears in this thread. With that in mind...

Considering all the various mechanics that the Tippyverse can call on, from Elder Evils to the Far Realm denizens to 3rd party stuff like the Neutronium Golem, I don't think anything would stand a chance. Assuming the Tippyverse's inhabitants do their research first, they would probably just have a Hulking Hurler destroy the Discworld in a single throw and then salvage what they could from the debris.

[Gemini476]

Let's just assume, for the sake of not making this a cosmic horror story, that Tippyverse magic and Disc magic are two entirely different things. How would it work out then?

Oh, it wouldn't really be that much of a cosmic horror story. The unwitting heroes win in the end, after all, the villains die from their hubris, and the more moderate heads prevail and return to their own worlds.

If you have D&D magic and Discworld magic as two entirely different things (or twenty slightly different things and one-twoish completely separate things), to what degree is that true? "How different is Psionics", metaphorically speaking? Would a Wizard ignore spell resistance, and a Witch take over the mind of a Shadesteel Golem?

And if we absolutely want to compare the MAXIMUM MAGICAL POWERLEVELS of the settings, how would a level 20 Wizard stack up to a Sourcerer?


But yeah, since narrativium works as it does the "winner" is probably going to be the Discworld. In a way. There's not a whole lot there that I could see the Tippyverse interested in getting a hold of, to be honest, so they'll probably leave after a while wearing shirts with the text "I Invaded The Discworld And All I Got Was This Stupid T-Shirt" emblazoned on them. And wearing funny little novelty hats, with a sausage innabun in hand while drunkenly singing "A Wizard's Staff Has a Knob on its End".
Ankh-Morpork will probably be burning, the History Monks will have a field day, the Auditors will have some very stern talks with DEATH in regards to the Tippyverse's usage of Raise Dead during the invasion. (Not that that matters. They always come to him in the end, after all. And technically it's not really his jurisdiction anyways.)

The Tippyverse winning in the invasion and then everything going hunky-dory with that is, quite frankly, boring. It doesn't make for a good story! Now, a young rebel rising up to fight the invading empire, and manages to win in the end against one in a million odds? That's narrativium working its magic for you.

[Yuki Akuma]

I've never read anything about Discworld, other than what appears in this thread.

There's your problem.

Discworld is a setting in which stories are more powerful than the laws of physics. It's a setting where million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten - a setting where scientists have proved that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten. Discworld is a setting where not only can a single hero take down an empire, he is practically guaranteed to do so if there's a real narrative cause for him to try.

Anyone who enters Discworld comes under the sway of its Narrative Causality, which has been proven to be true as extra-dimensional invaders have been screwed by this in the past. The unstoppable empire might win in the short term, but it's impossible for them to succeed in the long term, because stories don't work that way. There will be a plucky underdog hero to take them down.

[Eldan]

I've never read anything about Discworld, other than what appears in this thread. With that in mind...

Considering all the various mechanics that the Tippyverse can call on, from Elder Evils to the Far Realm denizens to 3rd party stuff like the Neutronium Golem, I don't think anything would stand a chance. Assuming the Tippyverse's inhabitants do their research first, they would probably just have a Hulking Hurler destroy the Discworld in a single throw and then salvage what they could from the debris.

The problem is, there is only one basic law that rules Discworld. Narrative Causality. What that means is that things are easier to do the more closely they follow a fairy tale outline and harder the less they follow it. And it goes to absolutely ridiculous extremes.

[Brookshw]

Let's just assume, for the sake of not making this a cosmic horror story, that Tippyverse magic and Disc magic are two entirely different things. How would it work out then?

I'd still lean towards discworld. Someone with a birthmark and perfectly normal looking sword would step up, the TV wizards would apologize profusely, then go off to start a football team to challenge UU.

Also Ventinari (sp) would probably have already manipulated the whole thing to his advantage.

[Yuki Akuma]

Also Ventinari (sp) would probably have already manipulated the whole thing to his advantage.

Well, no. Vetinari can be caught off guard - I think extradimensional invaders are too weird even for him.

I mean, he'll turn events to his advantage, probably, but it'll involve a lot of thinking on his feet.

[The Vagabond]

Oh, it wouldn't really be that much of a cosmic horror story. The unwitting heroes win in the end, after all, the villains die from their hubris, and the more moderate heads prevail and return to their own worlds.

If you have D&D magic and Discworld magic as two entirely different things (or twenty slightly different things and one-twoish completely separate things), to what degree is that true? "How different is Psionics", metaphorically speaking? Would a Wizard ignore spell resistance, and a Witch take over the mind of a Shadesteel Golem?

And if we absolutely want to compare the MAXIMUM MAGICAL POWERLEVELS of the settings, how would a level 20 Wizard stack up to a Sourcerer?


But yeah, since narrativium works as it does the "winner" is probably going to be the Discworld. In a way. There's not a whole lot there that I could see the Tippyverse interested in getting a hold of, to be honest, so they'll probably leave after a while wearing shirts with the text "I Invaded The Discworld And All I Got Was This Stupid T-Shirt" emblazoned on them. And wearing funny little novelty hats, with a sausage innabun in hand while drunkenly singing "A Wizard's Staff Has a Knob on its End".
Ankh-Morpork will probably be burning, the History Monks will have a field day, the Auditors will have some very stern talks with DEATH in regards to the Tippyverse's usage of Raise Dead during the invasion. (Not that that matters. They always come to him in the end, after all. And technically it's not really his jurisdiction anyways.)

The Tippyverse winning in the invasion and then everything going hunky-dory with that is, quite frankly, boring. It doesn't make for a good story! Now, a young rebel rising up to fight the invading empire, and manages to win in the end against one in a million odds? That's narrativium working its magic for you.

Let's not consider Maximum Powerness as the baseline, and consider each magic system in a vacuum.
As for how magic interacts, let's consider Tippyverse magic functioning outside Narrative Causality, with Disc Wizards still having Spell Resistance, but being able to get a boost from Narrative Causality when dramatically appropriate. Let's consider Tippyverse living sentient beings (Not constructs) free from Narrative Causality, so that it doesn't affect them directly. However, it can control them indirectly. Anything made in the Disc is under the effect of Narrative Causality.

As to why to Invade it, *Points to the Unseen University Library* Millions of magical tomes containing vaguely defined unlimited power, just what could they make with that?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As to why to Invade it, *Points to the Unseen University Library* Millions of magical tomes containing vaguely defined unlimited power, just what could they make with that?

Wish (trap) for copies of it, and avoid the issue altogether?

[The Vagabond]

Wish (trap) for copies of it, and avoid the issue altogether?

Let's just say that the only safe place to actually have the Library BE, would be the Unseen Library. Any attempt to Wish it would bring the creatures from the Dungeon Dimensions, or something else. You wish for the Library, you get the library, but none of the books. You wish for the Library with all the books, you get either what is Technically the library, with only spellbooks which you have or the library without any of it's safeguards. You wish for the magical tomes on the library, you get all the books in existence several 1x10100100100100100100times, flooding the entire tippyverse killing everyone. AKA, no matter what you do, trying to wish the Library into the Tippyverse is impossible.
That, or lower level mages simply want to invade themselves, wishing to become more powerful, or to test their mettle. Or the Denizens of the Discworld grant a metric ton of EXP per encounter.

[Heliomance]

Then? Narrative causality wins. The wizards minions go on strike and demand fair pay and some underdog takes down the entire wizard infrastructure with his 1d4-1 unlikely friends.

That, or Sam Vimes arrests the wizards for Reckless Use of Magic, Disturbing the Peace, and Interrupting My Tea.

[Aharon]

That, or Sam Vimes arrests the wizards for Reckless Use of Magic, Disturbing the Peace, and Interrupting My Tea.

Wouldn't he let the UU staff deal with it?

Also



Yes, the underwear of my epic wizards are more than capable of conquering your average world on their own.

The invading wizard is left without his underwear because it starts a relationship with The Luggage?

[Chronos]

Quoth The Vagabond:

Let's just say that the only safe place to actually have the Library BE, would be the Unseen Library.
Not precisely true, as the Library is, in a sense, already in many other places, including (to a very large degree) the Tippyverse. Remember, all libraries are connected.

[Bronk]

Well, L-Space might even be an alternate route for retaliation... Sending the assassin's guild through perhaps, or thieves to steal their spell books.

Also, it's possible that the disc could be forewarned by the trolls, who believe they live backwards through time.

[Eldan]

I'm not sure assassins could survive L-Space.There's wild Thesauri in there. But send the Librarian to steal everyone's spellbooks. Problem solved.

[Chronos]

Trolls don't live backwards through time. They believe that they start at the beginning and end at the end, just like everyone else. It's just that they view the end as "dawn" and the beginning as "sunset", being naturally nocturnal.

[Bronk]

Ah, but they believe that they do, and that's where the law of narrative causality would step in...

[tensai_oni]

Forget the whole cultural assimilation and/or narrative casuality thing. Pratchett's favorite characters bloated up into such unbeatable Mary Sues, I'm pretty sure Vimes could take on the whole Tippyverse just by himself.

Yes, I just called Sam Vimes a Mary Sue. It wasn't the case at the start but it sure is now.

/shots fired

[Gemini476]

Trolls don't live backwards through time. They believe that they start at the beginning and end at the end, just like everyone else. It's just that they view the end as "dawn" and the beginning as "sunset", being naturally nocturnal.

It's simpler than that, really. You can see what's in front of you, right? And you can't see what's behind you? And you can see the past, but not the future. Therefore you must be facing the past, and unless you're walking backwards that means that you're moving from the future to the past.

Troll logic. Literally.

[BWR]

Forget the whole cultural assimilation and/or narrative casuality thing. Pratchett's favorite characters bloated up into such unbeatable Mary Sues, I'm pretty sure Vimes could take on the whole Tippyverse just by himself.

Yes, I just called Sam Vimes a Mary Sue. It wasn't the case at the start but it sure is now.

/shots fired

Happened to Granny Weatherwax to an even greater degree. It wouldn't surprise me if Rincewind headed that direction. There's a reason I like the earlier DW books better.