Let's talk about the draconic rite of passage

[WhamBamSam]

No, not the Greater Draconic Rite, just the regular one (though the Draconic Resevoir feat may potentially become involved). I'm convinced that it has untapped optimization potential, not just if Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons, but for other kobold PCs (Dragonwrought and otherwise), NPC kobold warrens, and even changelings with Racial Emulation, as that appears to be sufficient to qualify them to undergo the ritual.

You might ask why I think this. After all, it's just a 1/day SLA of a 1st level spell. Except it's not. It's a 1/day SLA of any 1st level Sorc spell that fits your build, and more to the point, it has a CL equal to your character level.

The SLA itself pretty minor unless you spend a feat on Draconic Resevoir (and perhaps even then), but having Benign Transposition as an emergency button is a nice little thing if you're a mundane type that doesn't have much native access to that sort of thing and there are a few other spells, that might be handy 1-3/day in the right build (Arrow Mind on an archer for instance), or useful for qualifying for certain PrCs (Cause Fear for Dread Witch springs to mind though there may be a better example). I also seem to remember a argument in a Tucker's Kobolds thread from a while back that the warren would at least need a decent amount of low level spellcasting to seriously inconvenience a mid level party. Draconic Rite SLAs would help solve that problem.

Ultimately though, I'm more interested in the implications of its CL being equal to your character level for various purposes such as qualification for things and various feats/abilities that simply key off the character's caster level. The True Dragon example that I like is the Passion's Flame Sovereign Archetype, which gives you Rage as a barbarian of your caster level (while some of the Sovereign Archetype abilities specify Sorcerer caster level, Passion's Flame does not), which in this case is Rage as a barbarian of your character level, but there are less cheesy things as well. For instance, a Dragonwrought Soul Eater would be able to qualify for the Spell Drain feat in Libris Mortis, even if its class levels were devoid of any casting. Also, it's often argued that SLAs default to being arcane, which would mean that even a mundane kobold would have access to the Obtain Familiar feat.

Anyone have any thoughts on any this? Other potential uses for a Draconic Rite SLA?

[Fax Celestis]

Any 1st level spell? Jesus. Path of frost, rot of ages, any of the lesser orbs, any of the detects, distract assailant, armor lock, fist of stone, hoard gullet, identify, nerveskitter, master's touch, power word: pain, lesser shivering touch, true casting, wall of smoke...

Strength of the true form could be awesome on a wild shaper or MoMF.

Is it sorc only? If you could make it a bard spell somehow, improvisation is spectacular, and it's scalability makes it amazing in this instance. Or winged watcher if you could get a Druid one.

And what could you do with the Heighten Spell-Like Ability feat?

[WhamBamSam]

Any 1st level spell? Jesus. Path of frost, rot of ages, any of the lesser orbs, any of the detects, distract assailant, armor lock, fist of stone, hoard gullet, identify, nerveskitter, master's touch, power word: pain, lesser shivering touch, true casting, wall of smoke...

Strength of the true form could be awesome on a wild shaper or MoMF.

Is it sorc only? If you could make it a bard spell somehow, improvisation is spectacular, and it's scalability makes it amazing in this instance. Or winged watcher if you could get a Druid one.

And what could you do with the Heighten Spell-Like Ability feat?Using an SLA is a standard action, so Nerveskitter is out and some of the others are less good, though still not bad. Not sure how it would work for a White or Black Dragonwrought Kobold using Path of Frost/Rot of Ages though, since it's part of the actual spell text that makes them swift actions for White/Black Dragons.

Most things will have better physical stats than a kobold, but I suppose transfering your kobold Dex over to bruiser forms might be worthwhile.

It's Sorc only, though there may be some wiggle room in what exactly that means for kobolds, and for Bard spells specifically, Prestige Bard explicitly adds spells to your spell list, though it's also explicitly up to DM discretion whether non PHB spells can be added that way.

For reference purposes...

Draconic Rite of Passage
The Draconic Rite of Passage awakens the sorcerous power
within the blood of kobolds.
Prerequisites: Only kobolds can undergo the Draconic
Rite of Passage. A kobold requires no one else to perform
the rite; it is a solitary activity.
Benefit: Upon completing this rite, a kobold chooses
any 1st-level sorcerer spell. He can now use that spell once
per day as a spell-like ability, using his character level as
his caster level.
Each day, a kobold must complete the Searching for the
Dragon meditation (see above) in order to recharge this
spell-like ability for the day. No kobold can benefi t from
this rite more than once.
Time: A kobold who undergoes this rite must fi rst
endure nine days of fasting. Immediately thereafter, the
kobold must succeed on a DC 10 Concentration check to
enter a deep trance that lasts for 24 hours. If the check
fails, the rite must begin anew.
Cost: This rite requires sacrifi cing a gem of at least 100
gp in value. The kobold also permantly loses 1 hit point
upon completion of the rite.I'm pretty much convinced that no one involved in writing RotD had any idea what they were doing and I sort of love them for it.

[Fax Celestis]

Seriously. I cannot think of a single build where this feat wouldn't be useful. Sure there might be better options, but it would never be useless. Even a barbarian would like to have blade of blood once in a while. Rogues would love persistent blade, armor lock, or distract assailant.

[Bakkan]

Here's the thing -- it doesn't require a feat, just 100gp and 1 permanent hit point loss.

[WhamBamSam]

Seriously. I cannot think of a single build where this feat wouldn't be useful. Sure there might be better options, but it would never be useless. Even a barbarian would like to have blade of blood once in a while. Rogues would love persistent blade, armor lock, or distract assailant.It's not even a feat. It's a 10 day/100gp/1 HP ritual. Spending a feat gets it to 3/day instead of 1/day. EDIT: Swordsage'd

Like I said, lots of untapped optimization potential here. People tend to go straight for the Greater Draconic Rite, Loredrake, etc, when it comes to kobold cheese and skip right over their potential for sillyness/cheesy fun in regular old T4-T3 situations.

[Inevitability]

Create Trap is not too strong mechanically, but it fits the kobold flavor nicely.

[dextercorvia]

Sticky floor is my goto favorite for low level use. Entangle is decent, and even the half speed is nice. Helps when you are doing a variety of melee lockdown builds. Remember Racial Emulation means that Chameleon's get it, too.

It costs a couple of feats, but you can eventually get True Strike (or True Casting), Draconic Reservoir, and Quicken SLA for a 3/day this must go through.

When playing a first level sorcerer, I love Rite of Passage, Apprentice Spellcaster, and Hidden Talent (usually Ps. Grease or Dimension Hop). That gets you 3 sorcerer spells known, one SLA, and 2 uses of a 1st level power.

[bjoern]

Here's the thing -- it doesn't require a feat, just 100gp and 1 permanent hit point loss.

This is my stance on it.

Its the best ROI for 100gp and 1hp that you can make.

[WhamBamSam]

Sticky floor is my goto favorite for low level use. Entangle is decent, and even the half speed is nice. Helps when you are doing a variety of melee lockdown builds. Remember Racial Emulation means that Chameleon's get it, too.

It costs a couple of feats, but you can eventually get True Strike (or True Casting), Draconic Reservoir, and Quicken SLA for a 3/day this must go through.

When playing a first level sorcerer, I love Rite of Passage, Apprentice Spellcaster, and Hidden Talent (usually Ps. Grease or Dimension Hop). That gets you 3 sorcerer spells known, one SLA, and 2 uses of a 1st level power.I did mention changelings in the OP. Going off on a bit of a tangent, I wonder how much you could do to a changeling with Racial Emulation and various rituals.

Also, I read through the SRD section on SLAs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) again.
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit.

For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is:

10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier.

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.Emphasis mine.

So it looks like I was wrong about SLAs defaulting to standard action casting time. Not sure where I got that impression from. I guess (Sp) abilities that don't mimic spells do work that way, but yeah, that's my mistake. So swift/immediate action spells make better Draconic Rite SLAs than I thought.

It's less certain whether the spells defaulting to their Sor/Wiz version is enough to make a SLA caster level an arcane caster level. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Fax Celestis]

If it did, warlock wouldn't need special rules for PrCs.

[WhamBamSam]

If it did, warlock wouldn't need special rules for PrCs.I don't think that's true. It still wouldn't make them an arcane spellcasting class, just an arcane class with a caster level. Even if SLAs of Sor/Wiz spells were ruled to default to arcane, you still couldn't progress Arcane Dilettante or any portion thereof with PrCs. Also, Warlock Invocations don't directly mimic spells, even in the cases where they reference Animate Dead or what have you, so that clause might not apply to them at all.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Pick Charm Person and dip Mindbender, even on a caster with Enchantment as a prohibited school.

In the game I'm currently playing, the DM is running two different groups, mine has actually been doing amazingly well. The other group had to wade through Kobolds that used their 1/day Magic Missile on the first round of every encounter. Now they're fighting Drow with poisoned weapons, plus one of them is wearing a cursed item, but they sort of brought it onto themselves with their in-character choices.

[Irk]

Like I said, lots of untapped optimization potential here. People tend to go straight for the Greater Draconic Rite, Loredrake, etc, when it comes to kobold cheese and skip right over their potential for sillyness/cheesy fun in regular old T4-T3 situations.
I agree with this so much. Next character I create is definitely going to be using this. Can you do more than one rite of passage, or are you limited to single instance of the ritual? Even if you are, it's a lot of fun.

[WhamBamSam]

Pick Charm Person and dip Mindbender, even on a caster with Enchantment as a prohibited school.

In the game I'm currently playing, the DM is running two different groups, mine has actually been doing amazingly well. The other group had to wade through Kobolds that used their 1/day Magic Missile on the first round of every encounter. Now they're fighting Drow with poisoned weapons, plus one of them is wearing a cursed item, but they sort of brought it onto themselves with their in-character choices.If the SLA caster level counts as arcane, you could get a Mindbender dip even on a mundane. Note however, that Mindsight is likely going to be less useful unless you go non-Dragonwrought or can somehow strip away the Blindsense that the dragon type gives you, as Darkstalker beats anything with Blindsense by RAW, even if they have some other sense that the feat doesn't cover.


I agree with this so much. Next character I create is definitely going to be using this. Can you do more than one rite of passage, or are you limited to single instance of the ritual? Even if you are, it's a lot of fun.Just one. The last line of the benefit section is "no kobold can benefit from this rite more than once."

[Irk]

Just one. The last line of the benefit section is "no kobold can benefit from this rite more than once."
It's still amazing though. Thanks for bringing it up.

[Divide by Zero]

Just one. The last line of the benefit section is "no kobold can benefit from this rite more than once."

Interesting that it specifies "kobold." There isn't any cheesy way to count as a kobold for the prerequisites but not count as one for that line, is there?

[Fax Celestis]

Changelings can.

Racial Emulation feat!


When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes. Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example). You can also ignore the normal penalty on Disguise checks when disguising yourself as a different race (see the Disguise skill description, page 72 of the Player's Handbook). You can only emulate one race at a time, and you always retain the shapechanger subtype.

[WhamBamSam]

Interesting that it specifies "kobold." There isn't any cheesy way to count as a kobold for the prerequisites but not count as one for that line, is there?


Changelings can.

Racial Emulation feat!"All other purposes" probably includes checking to see whether you can benefit from the Rite again.

[Dread_Head]

How are people emulating a kobold as a changeling? A changelings minimum height is 5' 3" and a kobolds maximum is 2' 9". Even with the foot shorter disguise self can make you the changeling is still going to be over a foot taller than the tallest kobold.

Can you use wands of spells you have SLA's for? Because getting the ability to use a wand of something like SM1, Benign Transposition or Nerveskitter would be pretty useful for most characters.

[WhamBamSam]

How are people emulating a kobold as a changeling? A changelings minimum height is 5' 3" and a kobolds maximum is 2' 9". Even with the foot shorter disguise self can make you the changeling is still going to be over a foot taller than the tallest kobold.

Can you use wands of spells you have SLA's for? Because getting the ability to use a wand of something like SM1, Benign Transposition or Nerveskitter would be pretty useful for most characters.Being tall for a kobold isn't necessarily a problem for our purposes. Even if your disguise is ineffective, you're still posing as a kobold, which should be enough for Racial Emulation.

If your DM says no to that, a Reduce Person would do the trick. Reading the ritual, you probably don't even need a permanent one. You fast for 9 days, get reduced to small size, emulate a kobold, and make the Concentration check to begin the trance.

The SRD has this to say on spell trigger items.
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.It does not appear to allow for wands of spells you have as SLAs. So that's a no-go.

[Darrin]

Changelings can.

Racial Emulation feat!

You can also change your race to kobold via a 1-level dip into the Shaper of Form PrC (Dragon Compendium). Unfortunately, the mechanics of how that actually works is sort of a do-it-yourself project.

[Dread_Head]

Being tall for a kobold isn't necessarily a problem for our purposes. Even if your disguise is ineffective, you're still posing as a kobold, which should be enough for Racial Emulation.

If your DM says no to that, a Reduce Person would do the trick. Reading the ritual, you probably don't even need a permanent one. You fast for 9 days, get reduced to small size, emulate a kobold, and make the Concentration check to begin the trance.

The SRD has this to say on spell trigger items. It does not appear to allow for wands of spells you have as SLAs. So that's a no-go.

I suppose there's no explicit reason you can't disguise yourself as a ridiculously tall small character but I've never seen it allowed in my games and probably wouldn't allow it if I was DMing. After all are you really disguised as a 4ft tall kobold or as some other type of reptillian medium creature? The reduce person trick would work though.

Shame about the wands thing. Do SLA's count for must be able to cast X spells from X school? I know they count if it calls out the specific spell but do they also count when it is more generic? This could aid some classes getting into some prestige classes.

[dextercorvia]

Shame about the wands thing. Do SLA's count for must be able to cast X spells from X school? I know they count if it calls out the specific spell but do they also count when it is more generic? This could aid some classes getting into some prestige classes.
It's not as clear cut, but I usually see this ruled as okay so long as it doesn't call out spell level. (Able to cast at least 3 divinations can be interpreted as any 3 specific divinations).

[WhamBamSam]

Shame about the wands thing. Do SLA's count for must be able to cast X spells from X school? I know they count if it calls out the specific spell but do they also count when it is more generic? This could aid some classes getting into some prestige classes.
It's not as clear cut, but I usually see this ruled as okay so long as it doesn't call out spell level. (Able to cast at least 3 divinations can be interpreted as any 3 specific divinations).I actually don't think it works. There are rules buried somewhere in Complete Arcane about SLAs satisfying specific requirements for classes like Mindbender, but I don't think they work for anything as general as spell schools.

[Gemini476]

I'm pretty much convinced that no one involved in writing RotD had any idea what they were doing and I sort of love them for it.
Well, since you mentioned it...

Using an SLA is a standard action, so Nerveskitter is out and some of the others are less good, though still not bad. Not sure how it would work for a White or Black Dragonwrought Kobold using Path of Frost/Rot of Ages though, since it's part of the actual spell text that makes them swift actions for White/Black Dragons.
One fun thing in Races of the Dragon is how it specifies that Half-Dragons and Dragonwrought Kobolds count as their ancestral type of dragon. This gives you some reason to go for something other than a metallic dragon, I suppose - swift action low-level spells might be worth more than a higher maximum age?

[WhamBamSam]

Well, since you mentioned it...

One fun thing in Races of the Dragon is how it specifies that Half-Dragons and Dragonwrought Kobolds count as their ancestral type of dragon. This gives you some reason to go for something other than a metallic dragon, I suppose - swift action low-level spells might be worth more than a higher maximum age?That was what I was referring to in that post. I'd say it's worth it, especially if you're a Sorcerer or some other character with a decent Cha. Even the Chromatic age cap should be plenty of time to render yourself immortal if need be.

[dextercorvia]

I actually don't think it works. There are rules buried somewhere in Complete Arcane about SLAs satisfying specific requirements for classes like Mindbender, but I don't think they work for anything as general as spell schools.

Like I said, it isn't clear cut. Divine Oracle is the only one I'm thinking of. If I have a Detect Magic and Read Magic SLA, would that satisfy, "Able to cast at least 2 divination spells."

I think that it would under the clause you reference in Complete Arcane:


SPECIFIC SPELL REQUIREMENTS
A requirement based on a specific spell measures whether the character or creature in question is capable of producing the necessary effect, and as such, invocations and spell-like abilities that generate the relevant effect meet the requirements
for specific spell knowledge. For example, a prestige class with a spellcasting requirement of “Must know (or be able to cast) darkness” is met by a warlock who chooses darkness as one of her invocations, or by any creature with darkness as
a spell-like ability.

I recognize that this is my interpretation of RAI though and wouldn't jump up and down claiming it was 100% RAW.

[Fax Celestis]

I think that's pretty clear that SLAs count as "specific spell" requirements, but not as "specific school" requirements.

[Fax Celestis]

Tangentially related: does GDoP make you eligible for the Xorvintaal stuff? Because a Xorvintaal DFA Kobold sounds awesome.

[WhamBamSam]

Tangentially related: does GDoP make you eligible for the Xorvintaal stuff? Because a Xorvintaal DFA Kobold sounds awesome.I don't think you need spellcasting at all to become a Xorvintaal Dragon. You just need to be a Young Adult or older True Dragon, and lose spellcasting if you have it. It's only spellcasting that you lose though. Pseudo-spellcasting like Invocations, Incarnum, Pact Magic, Arcane Dilettante, and non-Magic Mantle Psionics are all fair game.

The biggest hurdles to getting a Xorvintaal Dragonwrought Kobold are 1) it hinges on the True Dragon thing, and 2) the Ritual of Xorvintaal isn't really defined, so acquiring the template may be problematic.

Also, Great Wyrm-grade Dragon Toxin is really borked at low levels, especially if you go with something like Blood Wind for your Draconic Rite SLA, and I don't like giving Dragonwrought Kobolds Alternate Form for the same reason I don't like giving them the standard Wyrm of War - it completely removes one of the major disadvantages of a high power race without any class levels.