If it has stats... (Challenge to the playground)

[rockdeworld]

I've heard "if it has stats, it can be killed." Well, I designed a creature that has stats (and not stupidly rule-altering stats like the Mortiverse (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?164660-Why-did-I-do-this-Because-I-could), I stuck to RAW*), and I'd like to see if you can kill him before it kills you.

My challenge is similar to the Stuffy Doll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?256950-3-5-The-Stuffy-Doll-Vs-the-Playground-%28V-1-V-28%29/page13), except that I won't disclose the creature's stats (and I think this creature is weaker than the Stuffy Doll). They're in an immutable document right now, which is my promise that they won't change (until he's defeated).

If you win you get bragging rights and I'll add your name to the OP and pm you the creature's stats. If you lose, I'll say how your character died. The only restrictions I ask for characters are: 20th level (190,000 XP if you use LA or WBL) with standard WBL (760,000 gp). Any alternate rules, eg. LA buyoff, are allowed.

*I think. If proven wrong, I will apologize. I did create some new abilities. The only one that breaks RAW is that the creature has regeneration.


Let it be known that
Erik Vale
destroyed the V1 creature with a well-worded Miracle (on page 2)
MetaMyconid
also destroyed the V1 creature with an epic bluff (on page 3)
Kardar233
destroyed the V2 creature with non-linear temporal spellcrafting and a Sphere of Annihilation (on page 12)

[Flickerdart]

(and not stupidly rule-altering stats like the Mortiverse (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?164660-Why-did-I-do-this-Because-I-could), I stuck to RAW*)
Mortiverse isn't "rule-altering." It uses rules from several 3rd party sources, most notable the Immortals Handbook. Granted, when I say rules, I use the term quite loosely - the entire book isn't worth the paper it's printed on - but it's still a legitimate monster in that sense.

Anyway, does your thing survive reality being reset to before it existed via Forced Dream shenanigans?

[Erik Vale]

I'll open with two things first, is it immune to Miracle, and could it survive the death of the multiverse?

[OldTrees1]

Since you mentioned the Stuffy Doll, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13964516&postcount=282) is the entry that beat V16 (the latest entry that seemed relevant)


EDIT: I got it.

I am any creature with two arms, the Improved Grapple feat, at least one level in Cancer Mage (guess which disease I'm infected with!), and a Bag of Devouring. I have spent at least twenty years with this festering illness turning me into Muscle Wizard (at a rate of +2 STR/day), so my to-hit modifier is at least +7,300 just from that. I walk up to the creature, make a touch attack to initiate a grapple (provoking no attacks of opportunity thanks to the Improved Grapple feat), which I easily pass except on a 1, because my to-hit bonus is [insert bonus here], to stuff the creature into the Bag of Devouring. If it fails the grapple check (if it uses my grapple modifier, this is all but automatic, since my STR bonus is [insert bonus here]), it is "consumed". No save, no SR, no amount of hit point damage of any kind; just "consumed".

Do I win V.16?

[Feint's End]

Since you mentioned the Stuffy Doll, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13964516&postcount=282) is the entry that beat V16 (the latest entry that seemed relevant)

To be fair .... anything winning a challenge via festering anger abuse is kind of lame. It's neither elegant nor especially creative.

[rockdeworld]

Mortiverse isn't "rule-altering." It uses rules from several 3rd party sources, most notable the Immortals Handbook. Granted, when I say rules, I use the term quite loosely - the entire book isn't worth the paper it's printed on - but it's still a legitimate monster in that sense.

Anyway, does your thing survive reality being reset to before it existed via Forced Dream shenanigans?
3rd-party books aside, I was mainly thinking of the way the author defended having more than infinity hp as "first you deal infinity damage, then it has X HP after that." Or some silliness like that. I'll accept that as 3rd party rules though, which I'm not using :smallsmile:

Depending on the way Forced Dream is used, maybe maybe not.

I'll open with two things first, is it immune to Miracle, and could it survive the death of the multiverse?
As to miracle, it might depend on the wording. Death of the multiverse, depends on how you go about it.


Since you mentioned the Stuffy Doll, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13964516&postcount=282) is the entry that beat V16 (the latest entry that seemed relevant)
Your character dies at least 20 years ago (about the time he started festering strength) from NI untyped damage.
Edit: In fact 5 rounds after contracting Festering Strength. And it loses the Sneak Attack and Disease Host abilities before taking the damage.

Er, maybe I should make it weaker.

[Flickerdart]

Depending on the way Forced Dream is used, maybe maybe not.
Look up the Dream of Metal. Forced Dream is used to irrevocably rewind a plane to when it was activated. Can your creature survive being undone (for instance, by existing on multiple planes)?

[OldTrees1]

Your character dies at least 20 years ago (about the time he started festering strength) from NI untyped damage.

Er, maybe I should make it weaker.

Nah, keep it this strong. I was just fishing for information. I was hoping for the hilarious "It is too big to fit in the bag" but I will settle for NI untyped damage (assisted with Teleport Thru Time I assume? Or perhaps merely very paranoid divination.).

[rockdeworld]

Look up the Dream of Metal. Forced Dream is used to irrevocably rewind a plane to when it was activated. Can your creature survive being undone (for instance, by existing on multiple planes)?
Mr. Anderson dies about the time he starts assembling the cult of the Warforged from NI untyped damage (from an unseen source, 4 rounds after starting, and loses his class abilities, including spellcasting, before taking the damage).

Nah, keep it this strong. I was just fishing for information. I was hoping for the hilarious "It is too big to fit in the bag" but I will settle for NI untyped damage (assisted with Teleport Thru Time I assume? Or perhaps merely very paranoid divination.).
Ok :smallsmile: I expected fishing, given the way I set up the competition. You're welcome to guess the method, but the damage to #16 came from an unseen source.

[Urpriest]

Hmm...

If divination is what's going on, a Diplomancer sounds like the best choice. Use the Omniscificer or similar to contact your creature and explain to it why it ought to seek out its own death, using a high enough check result to get to Fanatic (though probably best to stick to lower values since I'm assuming you're immune to mind-affecting, so we'll go with Helpful...if Helpful isn't enough, then get to Helpful, request the creature lower its mind-affecting immunity, then go to Fanatic).

If the creature locates potential threats via divination, then that divination would reveal the diplomancing message, and it takes effect. If a third party is protecting the creature through divination, the same thing happens. If a mindless/automatic force is locating potential threats then it probably has some sort of exception for things in the creature's best interests, which this is because you can't lie via Diplomacy (since it's covered by Bluff) and thus if the check is successful it actually is in the creature's best interests to kill itself.

[Flickerdart]

Mr. Anderson dies about the time he starts assembling the cult of the Warforged from NI untyped damage (from an unseen source).
It's really not that hard to be immune to damage (regeneration + immunity to energy + immunity to non-lethal). Have anything more effective?

[rockdeworld]

Hmm... <snip>
The Omniscifier dies from NI untyped damage when he begins crafting (3 rounds after he starts, to be precise, he loses Artificer class abilties and spellcasting and then takes the damage).

Other characters attempting diplomatic messages suffer a similar fate 2, 3, 4, or 5 rounds after leaving the message.

My apologies to the above characters for being imprecise. I've edited my posts. I think you now have all the info your characters would get under the circumstances.
Edit: I was wrong. Fixed now.


It's really not that hard to be immune to damage (regeneration + immunity to energy + immunity to non-lethal). Have anything more effective?
Maybe.

[Vhaidara]

This seems silly.

I play a level 1 Elan Commoner. I engage in a staring contest until the end of time with the creature. The multiverse ends. Draw.

[rockdeworld]

This seems silly.

I play a level 1 Elan Commoner. I engage in a staring contest until the end of time with the creature. The multiverse ends. Draw.
Your character dies 5 rounds after beginning the contest from the damage. Also you may have trouble finding him.

[Jormengand]

I've heard "if it has stats, it can be killed." Well, I designed a creature that has stats (and not stupidly rule-altering stats like the Mortiverse (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?164660-Why-did-I-do-this-Because-I-could), I stuck to RAW*), and I'd like to see if you can kill him before it kills you.

Well, nigh-unkillable creatures are always a ton of fun. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?360693-Amkii-the-Ineffable-%283-5-Deity-If-I-stat-it-you-CAN-T-kill-it!%29) :smalltongue:

I go truenamer 20, and open up with a heightened mortalbane reversed energy negation and a quickened mortalbane reversed energy negation, dumping 80d6 of whatever energy damage I like on it. If that doesn't work, I can drop two reversed Essences of Lifespark every turn, for two negative levels ignoring SR.

Just to go through what else I can do ignoring SR: ability damage, making it take a penalty on all its saves, stopping it from attacking or plane shifting or moving, and also I can prevent any damage type - I'm not sure that "Untyped" is legit, though.

If that doesn't work, I drop down a few solars with wish/miracle, which drop every spell in the entire game on the thing. Or chain gates. Or I could just fly above it and craft infinite collossal quarterstaves for all of the bludgeoning damage.

Oh, also, is its NI untyped damage a spell? That's a readied-action reversed spell rebirth to the face, that is.

Or I go for the wizard who is immune to death from hit point damage, and then pull any of a number of schenanigans while blissfully ignoring the tons of damage.

Any of these work?

[Vhaidara]

Your character dies 5 rounds after beginning the contest from the damage. Also you may have trouble finding him.

Okay, I try again with a 20th level max Con Elan Barbarian.

[Cruiser1]

I'd like to see if you can kill him before it kills you. The only restrictions I ask for characters are: 20th level (190,000 XP if you use LA or WBL) with standard WBL (760,000 gp).
Your build seems strong! Time to see how it does against other Tier 0 builds. :smalltongue: Priya the Prismatic Priestess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280365) is a level 20 build with standard WBL. She's no pushover in a duel...

The moment the contest starts. Priya goes first and gets a free standard action, since she's in Dire Tortoise form. If you're in Dire Tortoise form too, Priya activates one of her 21 contingent Celerities (20 from Craft Contingent Spell, and 1 from casting Contingency). Unless you're in Dire Tortoise form and also have 22 or more contingent Celerities, Priya goes first. In all but the most optimized high level combat, going first is all that matters.

Once Priya has a standard action to take, she starts her infinite Time Stop loop. Unless you're an epic character with the epic feat Spell Stowaway (Time Stop), you can't do anything in response. With infinite time, Priya can find out the details about your build and how to best defeat it at her leisure, or at least stay in Time Stop forever and keep the duel a draw.

Assuming Priya isn't somehow killed during the Time Stop, she exits Time Stop and takes infinite standard actions. Again unless you have properly worded contingencies you can't interrupt them. With infinite standard actions Priya can disjunct you (a few million times to be sure), then use her infinite wishes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?268501-3-5-Metamagic-Wish-Wishing-for-Infinite-Wishes) to transport you into the middle of the Sun and then into various black holes. If that doesn't work she'll just use Wish to place you in an antimagic field followed by nuking with a bunch of Orb spells, or she'll whack you with her +Google longword that's arguably enough to annihilate the entire Multiverse with a single swing. Again all this happens before we even roll initiative. :smallwink:

[OldTrees1]

New fishing attempt

Wizard 9 / Urpriest 1 / Mystic Theruge 9
Items: Thought Bottle(with current xp), 2x Spell Clock(once/second) of Delay Death(targeting the owner), 2x Spell Clock(once/second) of Greater Dispel Magic(dispelling the previous turn's Delay Death)

Round 1: Cast Teleport Thru Time to 1 month prior +/- 1d8 minutes.
Round ~T-1 Month: Cast Teleport Thru Time on a pair of Spell Clocks(1 of each) to send them to before(noting error ranges) my origin. They have instructions to be given to me at my origin.


Question: Dispelling Delay Death ends Delay Death while avoiding Delay Death's duration from expiring right?
Answered: No.

[Chronos]

Question: Dispelling Delay Death avoids Delay Death's duration from expiring right?
On the contrary: Dispelling a spell causes its duration to instantly expire.

To be clear on this challenge: The entity we're attempting to kill is attempting to actively defend itself by killing us or the like, right? It's not just trying to ignore us. Which means that in addition to a really impressive offense, we also need either an equally impressive defense, or a means of making sure our impressive offense happens before its does.

Meanwhile: A 20th-level archivist casts Commune, questioning Boccob. He asks the following questions:
1: Do you know who the most difficult-to-kill entity in the multiverse is?
(assuming a yes)
2a: Would you benefit from said entity dying?
3a: Is said entity evil?
4a: Is said entity good?
5a: Is said entity lawful?
6a: Is said entity chaotic?
(assuming a no to question 1)
2b: Do you know anything about the most difficult-to-kill entity in the multiverse?
(assuming a yes)
3b: Would you benefit from said entity dying?
4b: Is said entity evil?
5b: Is said entity good?
6b: Is said entity lawful?
7b: Is said entity chaotic?
(assuming a no to question 2b)
3c: Would you benefit from the death of the most difficult-to-kill entity that you do know about?
4c: Is said entity evil?
5c: Is said entity good?
6c: Is said entity lawful?
7c: Is said entity chaotic?

Keep in mind that, while the questions must be yes-no questions, the deity can give longer answers if that is in the deity's interests. At the end of these questions, is the archivist still alive, and if so, what are the answers?

[Flickerdart]

To be clear on this challenge: The entity we're attempting to kill is attempting to actively defend itself by killing us or the like, right? It's not just trying to ignore us. Which means that in addition to a really impressive offense, we also need either an equally impressive defense, or a means of making sure our impressive offense happens before its does.
The only offense that's been demonstrated is NI damage at any point in time, which is trivial to avoid. Beyond that, we haven't seen this entity capable of anything offensive at all.

[Necroticplague]

Hmmmmm.....Similar to the Stuffy Doll, it seems to retroactively kill you 4 or 5 rounds after your plans begin. So the only way to kill it is to do something that doesn'y require more than about 30 seconds.

To that end: d2 crusader. Use a candle to get a djjin to wish me to the creature's location. Swift Action to quicken heal minor wounds on myself, true strike. Cast [spell whos name I can't remember, makes it so you can treat a roll as a nat 20], and quickened wraithstrike. Quickened heal minor on self to activate Imbued Healing (luck), punch him with your guaranteed hit, do infinite damage.

[Heliomance]

I think it's killing you 1d4+1 rounds after you start whatever you're doing.

[Psyren]

To be fair .... anything winning a challenge via festering anger abuse is kind of lame. It's neither elegant nor especially creative.

But using it to wrestle your foe into a bag without dealing damage seems plenty creative to me :smallsmile:

[rockdeworld]

Well, nigh-unkillable creatures are always a ton of fun. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?360693-Amkii-the-Ineffable-%283-5-Deity-If-I-stat-it-you-CAN-T-kill-it!%29) :smalltongue:
Hah, I hadn't seen Amkii before. Neat concept.

Truenamer: I think those require LoE, so you have to get in range before you can do that. Having said that, your character doesn't see him and then 3 rounds later loses truenaming and then takes NI untyped damage.

The damage is not from a spell.


Okay, I try again with a 20th level max Con Elan Barbarian.
Same result. Not enough HP, unless I'm missing something.


Your build seems strong! Time to see how it does against other Tier 0 builds. :smalltongue: Priya the Prismatic Priestess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280365) is a level 20 build with standard WBL. She's no pushover in a duel...
Agh, the reading :smalltongue: (nice work on that build, IMO)
Priya wins initiative without using any contingencies. However, she is somehow killed during the Time Stop. Specifically (tell me if she has any buffs active to stop any of these):
In round 2 of effective time for her (i.e. when she's dancing to cast another time stop) an (Ex) effect strips her of all abilities, including class abilities like Spelldancing, but, ah, not her buffs, so she's still immune to damage, etc.
So she survives the damage.
Then she dies (no save, not a [death] effect*, just dies).
*Even though that's cheesy. Sorry.


To be clear on this challenge: The entity we're attempting to kill is attempting to actively defend itself by killing us or the like, right? It's not just trying to ignore us.

<snip>
Well, you can take from the Elan commoner's staring contest that it's not ignoring you, correct.

The Commune spell fails. I didn't see anything in the rules that says you know why it fails, but correct me if I missed something.
Then the archivist dies in similar fashion as the above, 4 rounds after he started casting.


d2 crusader. Use a candle to get a djjin to wish me to the creature's location. Swift Action to quicken heal minor wounds on myself, true strike. Cast [spell whos name I can't remember, makes it so you can treat a roll as a nat 20], and quickened wraithstrike. Quickened heal minor on self to activate Imbued Healing (luck), punch him with your guaranteed hit, do infinite damage.
Your travel via the transport wish is blocked. 4 rounds later, ability loss and NI damage.

Let's see If I understand then:
Round 1: (Standard) Use candle, get wish, transport. (Swift) true strike (for +20 to-hit on top of ?? BAB)
Round 2: (Standard) nat-20 spell, (swift) wraithstrike
Round 3: (swift) heal minor wounds for Imbued Healing, (standard) unarmed strike (or something)

At the end of round 1 you find yourself in Sigil, facing a large-sized creature made of steampunk.
In round 3 your attack misses due to incorporeality low attack bonus (assuming 20 die roll + 16 BAB vs touch ac). incorporeality (I was right the first time and got messed up)
In round 5, you lose all abilities and then take NI damage.

[Urpriest]

Your travel via the transport wish is blocked. 4 rounds later, ability loss and NI damage.

Can we ask if this is because you're taking a non-cheesy version of the "regardless of local conditions" line, or because the creature has some means of bypassing the cheesy version of said line?

[Chronos]

OK, my archivist's brother (also an archivist 20), who has the Craft Contingent Spell feat, crafts a contingent True Resurrection that will trigger on himself if he dies. Then he goes outside, stares up into the sky, and shouts "Thing that killed my brother, I will be avenged on you!".

[OldTrees1]

Try 1: Festering Anger
Died from NI damage 5 rounds after a point in the past.
Try 2: Forced Dream
Died from NI damage 4 rounds after a point in the past.
Lost class features before the damage.
Try 3: Diplomatic Omniscifier
Died from NI damage 3 rounds after a point in the past.
Others died 2, 3, 4, or 5 rounds after a point in the past.
Lost class features before the damage.
Try 4: Staring Contest
Died from NI damage 5 rounds after the present
Try 5: Truenamer
Died from NI damage 3 rounds after the present
Lost class features before the damage.
Try 6: Barbaric Staring Contest
Died from NI damage 5 rounds after the present
Try 7: Pryia

Agh, the reading (nice work on that build, IMO)
Priya wins initiative without using any contingencies. However, she is somehow killed during the Time Stop. Specifically (tell me if she has any buffs active to stop any of these):
In round 2 of effective time for her (i.e. when she's dancing to cast another time stop) an (Ex) effect strips her of all abilities, including class abilities like Spelldancing, but, ah, not her buffs, so she's still immune to damage, etc.
So she survives the damage.
Then she dies (no save, not a [death] effect*, just dies).
*Even though that's cheesy. Sorry.
"just die" on the same round as the damage.
Try 8: Communing Archivist
Died from NI damage 4 rounds after a point in the past.
Lost class features before the damage.
Commune failed
Try 9: d2 Crusader

At the end of round 1 you find yourself in Sigil, facing a large-sized creature made of steampunk.
In round 3 your attack misses due to incorporeality.
In round 5, you lose all abilities and then take NI damage.
Try 10: True Res Archivist
Died, soul bound
Try 11: Vecna Blooded Su Transmutation Commune
Commune Failed
Foresight gave warning of Turn 1. It is 4 rounds later that the class feature loss and damage occurs
Try 12: Post 34 not included in this summary


Conclusions:
Our Enemy is Visible, Incorporeal, Con - and can be found with a well worded Wish.
You are on a 1d4+1 round timer keyed to your personal time from the beginning of your plan*. (Spell Stowaway[Time Stop] could explain some of this)
You face "loss of class features", NI damage, and "just die".

*I might test this. There are alternative hypotheses of when the timer starts.

[Necroticplague]

The only one that breaks RAW is that the creature has regeneration.

Note to others: this means it has no con score, and thus all the immunities that entails.

[Kazyan]

Repeat the Commune, but with a Vecna-Blooded Wizard (Transmuter) 8/Cleric 1/Wyrm Wizard 2/Wizard +2/Mindbender 1/Dweomerkeeper 7. Commune on the Wizard list via Wyrm Wizard, using the Spell Versatility ACF from Unearthed Arcana to make Commune into a Transmutation (so Mind Blank and Vecna-Blooded don't work anymore), and Supernatrual Spell from Dweomerkeeper to cast as a standard action that ignores SR.

This Wizard has Foresight, Superior Invisibility, and Astral Projection up at that moment. Does Foresight give any information on what's about to kill him, does a Lesser Celerity give him time to see it (via Mindsight), is he dead despite Astral Projection, and if the latter is true, is his soul recoverable from the Thinaun knife his actual body was holding onto and that his familiar will ivestigate? (Also, what happens to his familiar?)

[rockdeworld]

Can we ask if this is because you're taking a non-cheesy version of the "regardless of local conditions" line, or because the creature has some means of bypassing the cheesy version of said line?
Ah, I missed that part. In that case, my answer demands editing.

Done.


OK, my archivist's brother (also an archivist 20), who has the Craft Contingent Spell feat, crafts a contingent True Resurrection that will trigger on himself if he dies. Then he goes outside, stares up into the sky, and shouts "Thing that killed my brother, I will be avenged on you!".
I can't stop laughing XD

After dying he can't revive due to having his soul bound into a gem.


Transport wish was blocked
<snip>
You face "loss of class features", NI damage, NI ability damage and "just die".
Try 9 with transport wish is now edited. Also, I didn't mean to imply ability damage - it's straight HP damage.

Missed this:

(it was after the present right?)
Yes.


Repeat the Commune, but with a Vecna-Blooded Wizard (Transmuter) 8/Cleric 1/Wyrm Wizard 2/Wizard +2/Mindbender 1/Dweomerkeeper 7. Commune on the Wizard list via Wyrm Wizard, using the Spell Versatility ACF from Unearthed Arcana to make Commune into a Transmutation (so Mind Blank and Vecna-Blooded don't work anymore), and Supernatrual Spell from Dweomerkeeper to cast as a standard action that ignores SR.
Commune fails again, despite being Transmutation and (Su) and ignoring SR.
Foresight gives you an instantaneous warning of impending danger/harm to yourself on the first round, and it's 4 rounds after this that the ability loss/damage effects take place. "The spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself": kill the creature that targeted you.

In the first round, your familiar becomes hostile towards you and attempts to kill you (likely failing).

You use Lesser Celerity, but see nothing.

Your astral body, and physical body both suffer ability loss followed by damage. The familiar stops being your familiar due to the aforementioned ability loss, then is no longer your ally (since it became hostile), so lives.

Edits: phew. I don't like double-posting though.

[OldTrees1]

Ah, I missed that part. In that case, my answer demands editing.
Done.

I can't stop laughing XD
After dying and reviving he takes NI damage again.

Try 9 with transport wish is now edited. Also, I didn't mean to imply ability damage - it's straight HP damage.
My post is edited.

Did Priya experience any time between damage and "just die"?
Was their any time between reviving and damage?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Ah, I missed that part. In that case, my answer demands editing.

Done.


I can't stop laughing XD

After dying and reviving he takes NI damage again.


Try 9 with transport wish is now edited. Also, I didn't mean to imply ability damage - it's straight HP damage.

If Try 9 (the d2 Crusader) had a means to hit incorporeal targets, do they still miss in round 3? If they hit in round 3, do they still lose their abilities and die from NI damage in round 5?

Alternatively, does anyone remember the record for number of rounds for Pun-Pun to ascend?

[rockdeworld]

Did Priya experience any time between damage and "just die"?
Was their any time between reviving and damage?
Edited my last post too, since I missed one of your questions and was working on Kazyan's post, and made a mistake with reviving (you probably can't).
For Priya: No, no time between them.


If Try 9 (the d2 Crusader) had a means to hit incorporeal targets, do they still miss in round 3? If they hit in round 3, do they still lose their abilities and die from NI damage in round 5?

Alternatively, does anyone remember the record for number of rounds for Pun-Pun to ascend?
They might still miss. I'd need more build details. As for the second question, you'll see.

I always think of a banner someone had on the WotC forums (and maybe here too) that had a kobold writing the 7(?) steps to becoming pun-pun on a whiteboard. Couldn't find it with google though. IIRC it went something like:
1. Be a level 1 kobold, knowledge check for Pazuzu, summon Pazuzu.
2. Wish for a Candle of Invocation.
3. Gate in an Efreeti
4. Wish transport to the Astral Plane
5. Wish for a Sarrukh
6. Have it give you Manipulate Form
7. Go wild
Then a human says something like "not sure that's entirely rules-legal"
And the kobold replies "Screw the rules, I'm a kobold!"

[Erik Vale]

As to miracle, it might depend on the wording. Death of the multiverse, depends on how you go about it.

*Looks*
Ok, so I've 2 Rounds.
1st Round, Standard Action: Upon hearing of the creatures existance and the death of high powered creatures I cast Miracle, requesting to know the Creatures True name specifying I'm not asking about Clones/Ice Assassins/Simulcrums/Astral Projections [Concept Cleric worshiping a concept that agrees, Miracle's power is unlimited.]

1st Round, Swift Action: I use a Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken to Use Miracle to request to be able to say the creatures true name. [Concept Cleric worshiping a concept that agrees, Miracle's power is Unlimited.]

2nd Round, Swift Action: I use a Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken to Use Miracle to request the creature and all copies of the creature such as astral projections, clones, ice assassins, Simulcrums, to cease exisiting, utalising it's true name to identify it. [Concept Cleric worshiping a concept that agrees, Miracle's power is Unlimited.]


Now the question is, at what point in the second round does it kill me, or does it kill me earlier. This could be done by any level 18 Cleric if their domains grant Miracle, or any level 19 without, giving no immediate reason for the cleric to be retroactively destroyed unless the concept would cause such, in which case it then also needs to kill any gods that may agree with the miracles.

In a varient to this, I attempt this in 1 round, this would give us the creatures CR as per the formula for determining the DC of the True-speak Check, assuming the speaker is told it when they roll.


Edit: Pun-Pun
Can traveling to the Astral Plane be skipped? And can any of those actions be done in the same round?

[Kazyan]

Divine Bard 15/Paragnostic Apostle 5. Casting Speak with Dead on the corpses of those who came before to learn about how they died, then making a Bardic Knowledge check at, I dunno, +30 (+15 Divine Bard, +10 Paragnostic Apostle, +2 synergy from K:History, +3 Intelligence bonus) to figure this out. Does the bard learn anything with a ~40 on bardic knowledge?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Edited my last post too, since I missed one of your questions and was working on Kazyan's post, and made a mistake with reviving (you probably can't).
For Priya: No, no time between them.


They might still miss. I'd need more build details. As for the second question, you'll see.

I always think of a banner someone had on the WotC forums (and maybe here too) that had a kobold writing the 7(?) steps to becoming pun-pun on a whiteboard. Couldn't find it with google though. IIRC it went something like:
1. Be a level 1 kobold, knowledge check for Pazuzu, summon Pazuzu.
2. Wish for a Candle of Invocation.
3. Gate in an Efreeti
4. Wish transport to the Astral Plane
5. Wish for a Sarrukh
6. Have it give you Manipulate Form
7. Go wild
Then a human says something like "not sure that's entirely rules-legal"
And the kobold replies "Screw the rules, I'm a kobold!"

I've seen that sig as well (back on 339 I think, and maybe BG/MinMax boards or even here. But I seem to recall someone having hit ascension in a timeframe reasonably measured in rounds (though I've not been able to find it with a casual googling). And then there's the possibility of Shaedling abuse, but I was never quite certain how that would work, in specific enough terms to propose using it.

It's a vague question, but if Pun-Pun could ascend within say, 4 rounds, would that be sufficient to defeat your creation? Would 4 be too few? Would 5 guarantee your creation could take him out pre-ascension? Is this question insufficiently specific?

[rockdeworld]

*Looks*
Ok, so I've 2 Rounds. <snip>
Agreed miracle can do that in general, but in this case the miracles fail. The second fails for a different reason than the first. Also, 17th-level clerics get miracles too. The exact point in the round that it happens is unclear (based on what I've written), so let's say the end of the round. In this case 5 rounds, rather than 2. Then your character loses spellcasting/turn undead and takes NI damage.

Re: Pun-pun: I'm almost sure I got some of those wrong, so don't take that as rules. It was mostly just in case it jogs someone's memory.


Divine Bard 15/Paragnostic Apostle 5. Casting Speak with Dead on the corpses of those who came before to learn about how they died, then making a Bardic Knowledge check at, I dunno, +30 (+15 Divine Bard, +10 Paragnostic Apostle, +2 synergy from K:History, +3 Intelligence bonus) to figure this out. Does the bard learn anything with a ~40 on bardic knowledge?
Speak with Dead: They tell you they lost their abilities, then took NI damage/died for unclear reasons.
Bardic Knowledge fails to get info.
4 rounds after you begin, your character loses your abilities and takes NI damage.


It's a vague question, but if Pun-Pun could ascend within say, 4 rounds, would that be sufficient to defeat your creation? Would 4 be too few? Would 5 guarantee your creation could take him out pre-ascension? Is this question insufficiently specific?
Insufficiently specific :smalltongue:
Also I probably can't give a general answer.

[Sith_Happens]

Hm, lemme take a stab at this...

A: Trick question, the target is obviously Pun-Pun.

[rockdeworld]

A: Trick question, the target is obviously Pun-Pun.
Hah, no. I stick to what I said in the OP: I think this is weaker than the stuffy doll.

[Cruiser1]

Agh, the reading :smalltongue: (nice work on that build, IMO)
Priya wins initiative without using any contingencies. However, she is somehow killed during the Time Stop. Specifically (tell me if she has any buffs active to stop any of these):
In round 2 of effective time for her (i.e. when she's dancing to cast another time stop) an (Ex) effect strips her of all abilities, including class abilities like Spelldancing, but, ah, not her buffs, so she's still immune to damage, etc.
So she survives the damage.
Then she dies (no save, not a [death] effect*, just dies).
*Even though that's cheesy. Sorry.
Interesting! Note that Priya has more than just spell buffs: Does the (Ex) effect that strips Priya of class abilities penetrate the violet veil from Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil? (The veil is raised as her first swift action inside the Time Stop.) Also, does the no save non-[Death] effect that causes death penetrate a violet veil?

Note the Priya build mentions access to the spell Astral Projection, and her equipment lists two demiplanes. Assuming the real Priya is in one of her private demiplanes, which is also protected by a violet veil, does she still die? If so is it just her astral projection, her real self, or both simultaneously that die?

[Urpriest]

The target is in Sigil, right? I'm not incredibly savvy on planar matters, but I should think that there's some reliable way to bring something to the Lady's attention, presumably that takes fewer than five rounds. Alert the Lady that an absurdly powerful being is hanging around in her city blatantly disregarding her will. Since the Lady has no stats, she trumps anything with stats.

Of course, what the lady does in this situation is something we should probably ask Afroakuma for an opinion about. Not it!

[rockdeworld]

Interesting! Note that Priya has more than just spell buffs: Does the (Ex) effect that strips Priya of class abilities penetrate the violet veil from Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil? (The veil is raised as her first swift action inside the Time Stop.) Also, does the no save non-[Death] effect that causes death penetrate a violet veil?

Note the Priya build mentions access to the spell Astral Projection, and her equipment lists two demiplanes. Assuming the real Priya is in one of her private demiplanes, which is also protected by a violet veil, does she still die? If so is it just her astral projection, her real self, or both simultaneously that die?
If I understand correctly, the Violet Veil doesn't prevent this, because it doesn't require Line of Effect. Death is a secondary effect of being targeted.

Astral Projection: each instance of Priya, astral and physical, is targeted. So both, simultaneously.

Since the Lady has no stats, she trumps anything with stats.
Granted.

[Erik Vale]

Agreed miracle can do that in general, but in this case the miracles fail. The second fails for a different reason than the first. Also, 17th-level clerics get miracles too. The exact point in the round that it happens is unclear (based on what I've written), so let's say the end of the round. In this case 5 rounds, rather than 2. Then your character loses spellcasting/turn undead and takes NI damage.

The second fails because the first fails, I can't say a name I don't know.
My first guess is a wording of Mindblank.

Clerics Brother *Because all adventurers have one* knowing the timeframe will perform the same routine, instead asking for the truename of the creature that killed his brother.
If this doesn't work, he'll instead ask for his brother's truename and the ability to say it, and then miracle for the ceasation of the existance of the creature [and all copies] of the person that killed his brother, noting the truename.


Since it's possible, let's give this character a clone and being Astral Projected. I wan't to know if he wakes up in his projected body and or his cloned body.

Anyone have a link to the Emerald Legion?
Edit:
Ok, they're easy to find. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101587-D-amp-D-3-5-The-Emerald-Legion-Mass-Producing-Ikea-Tarrasques)

Is one killed before they can breed the Emerald Legion into existence [Assuming you can't Miracle them into existence by succeeding arbitrary knowledge checks]?

[OldTrees1]

Fishing attempts 3

Experiment 3
Wizard(Destiny Domain) 10 Incantrix 10
Instant Metamagic 2/day + Persist Spell + Foresight & Delay Death
Foresight gives me warning on turn 1
Turn 1: Write the foresight down (with instructions to do the hokey pokey and nothing else) twice
Turn 2: Teleport the foresight Thru Time to a friend 40 years ago (with instructions to do the hokey pokey and nothing else)
Turn 3: Teleport the foresight Thru Time to myself 20 years ago (with instructions to do the hokey pokey and nothing else)
Turn 5: Die to "just die" and be bound in a soul gem?

[Chronos]

Try 15:
A wu jen 3/psion 7/cerebromancer 10 casts Body Outside Body (producing copies of himself which are able to manifest 9th-level powers). He then orders his copies to investigate any threats to himself, deal with them if possible, and report back to him once said threats are dead. The original character then manifests Time Hop on himself to jump forward 20 rounds (he has practiced manifester), and manifests it again 59 minutes (world time) after the first manifestation. The copies follow the order by manifesting Precognition, Metafaculty, Remote Viewing, Detect Remote Viewing, Detect Hostile Intent, and the like.

Try 16:
A sorcerer with Sanctum Spell and Heighten Spell uses Arcane Fusion to cast another Arcane Fusion and Heightened Prestidigitation, with the Arcane Fusion containing another Arcane Fusion and Heightened Prestidigitation, and so on, to change the color of a pretty marble a nigh-infinite number of times (the sorcerer in question has 3 Int and Wis, and is very easily amused).

Try 17:
A 20th-level wizard casts a Wish as follows: "I wish for the entity that's been killing all of these high-powered characters to gain 25,000 GP".

My hypothesis is that this thing's killing abilities are triggered by anything that starts a limitless loop, or by anything which expresses any interest in it specifically. If this is true, the cerebromancer's BOBs will all die but the cerebromancer himself will not (because the cerebromancer himself is just interested in nonspecific threats and it's his BOBs doing all the work, and will not report back to him); the sorcerer will die (because he's started a limitless loop, even though he doesn't care about the Mysterious Entity); and the wizard will die (because he's taken an interest in the Mysterious Entity, even though it's in a way that benefits it).

[rockdeworld]

At this point I should probably just give every character 5 rounds, since Heliomance figured out the 1d4+1 delay, and there's unlimited attempts.


Clerics Brother *Because all adventurers have one* knowing the timeframe will perform the same routine, instead asking for the truename of the creature that killed his brother.
If this doesn't work, he'll instead ask for his brother's truename and the ability to say it, and then miracle for the ceasation of the existance of the creature [and all copies] of the person that killed his brother, noting the truename.
Getting the truename of the creature that killed his brother fails. He gets his brother's truename and the ability to say it. The cessation miracle fails in what I'll come out and say is a successful saving throw, in the interest of fair knowledge (and in case there's a way around it that I'm not aware of). Death follows.

Re: clone/astral projection: I'd need something more solid to give a response. "Random level 20 cleric casts miracle" is simple enough, but the Clone and Astral Projection spells both require line of effect, not to mention having a casting time. And I'm not sure what character you're talking about.

Emerald Legion: yes, the cabal dies 5 rounds after beginning a capture attempt on a troll. I'm not sure they can be Miracle'd into existence, but if someone can prove me wrong that's fine.


Turn 5: Die to "just die" and be bound in a soul gem?
I'm not sure how Teleport Through Time works (and all links to it seem to be broken), but assuming it has the same casting time as teleport and lets you pick a point in time:
Turn 2: Your once-friend is now hostile toward you and disregards the note.
Turn 3: Your past-self is now hostile toward you and disregards the note (as part of "take risks to hurt you," eg. risk that he will die by "interfere"-ing with your plan).
Turn 5: Yes. Both you and your 20-year past self. Not your once-friend or past self though.


Try 15: <snip>
Try 15: It seems the crunch on Precognition amounts to a +2 insight bonus. Metafaculty can target you, but not the creature. Remote Viewing fails. Detect Remove Viewing and Detect Hostile Intent reveal nothing. Then the copies are simultaneously stripped of their abilities and take NI untyped damage.
Meanwhile the main version manifesting Time Hop on round 2 gives him 3 more rounds before the same happens to him, assuming he can survive 30 damage from slain BOB clones. Effectively 24 rounds after casting BOB.

Try 16: NI is finite, so several rounds later death smiles.

Try 17: He also dies (poor guy).

Edit: Had to fix my response to OldTrees fishing attempt based on re-reading the rules.

[Erik Vale]

+
Getting the truename of the creature that killed his brother fails. He gets his brother's truename and the ability to say it. The cessation miracle fails in what I'll come out and say is a successful saving throw, in the interest of fair knowledge (and in case there's a way around it that I'm not aware of). Death follows.

Re: clone/astral projection: I'd need something more solid to give a response. "Random level 20 cleric casts miracle" is simple enough, but the Clone and Astral Projection spells both require line of effect, not to mention having a casting time. And I'm not sure what character you're talking about.

Emerald Legion: yes, the cabal dies 5 rounds after beginning a capture attempt on a troll. I'm not sure they can be Miracle'd into existence, but if someone can prove me wrong that's fine.

1: Miracle isn't duplicating a spell, and thus doesn't gain (Saving throw: Yes), is it still getting a saving through despite this?

2 [Clone/Astral Projection]: The Cleric has these spells pre-cast as part of the usual 'If I die' contingencies [I.e. Some time before he became aware of the creature and attempted to attack it, he cast clone and has it existing, as well as casting Astral Projection], my question is, does the creature just kill the projection [thinking not], and does it prevent resurrection [Through Clone]?

3: Miracle can do anything if the Diety [or Cause] accepts. The problem is knowing about the Emerald Legion, and I'm going to pretend that no one survives to or does the necessary research.

[rockdeworld]

1: Miracle isn't duplicating a spell, and thus doesn't gain (Saving throw: Yes), is it still getting a saving through despite this?
Mmm, that makes sense. Then no, it doesn't get a saving throw, and yes, it's removed from existence. Congratulations! I've PM'd you the sheet and added your name to the OP.

In the interest of other people getting info, I'll answer the other question: the cleric would die 5 rounds into casting the contingency.

If anyone's interested in continuing the challenge against a creature immune to divine energies, I can tweak its stats to accommodate.

[OldTrees1]

I'm not sure how Teleport Through Time works (and all links to it seem to be broken), but assuming it has the same casting time as teleport and lets you pick a point in time:
Turn 2: Your once-friend is now hostile toward you and attacks you with the intent of killing you (probably failing).
Turn 5: Yes, or damage since it sounds like you're not immune. Both you and your 20-year past self. Not your once-friend though.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b

1 round casting
Targets: caster, objects and or creatures
I chose only to teleport the messages. I remained in the present so I don't think my friend attacks me. Does my friend still become hostile? Does my past self still die on Turn 5?

Doesn't Persisted Delay Death give immunity to death by damage until after the persisted buff is removed?



Yes let it be continued.

[rockdeworld]

I chose only to teleport the messages. I remained in the present so I don't think my friend attacks me. Does my friend still become hostile? Does my past self still die on Turn 5?

Doesn't Persisted Delay Death give immunity to death by damage until after the persisted buff is removed?
My mistakes. Yes to all those questions. Previous post edited.

[OldTrees1]

My mistakes. Yes to all those questions. Previous post edited.

Darn. I was hoping it only tracked my personal time line and not that of the note. However you have indicated that we can take NI actions before death provided they happen before 5 turns of rippling causality.

Now to find a non open ended(non wish/miracle) way of killing it.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Try 18:

Jersey
Psion 10/Thrallherd 10

Jersey has, through Spell to Power Erudite thralls and Psychic Chirurgery, learned every spell and power printed in whatever sources are available for this challenge (I'm assuming official WotC content is fine, third party is not). Jersey, Jersey's two thralls (capable of manifesting Bestow Power or a 2-PP Augmented Synchronicity), and Jersey's Fission (capable of manifesting Bestow Power or a 2-PP Augmented Synchronicity) will be going on this little sortie.

Jersey uses the Sieging Dreadnought trick (from the handbook in my sig), setting up his team for the day. Jersey's fission manifests an augmented Synchronicity; Jersey then manifests Reality Revision (or Wish, or Miracle, if you'd prefer) to transport the group to the target with his Synchronicity action; Jersey's thralls manifest Bestow Power on their Synchronicity actions; Jersey's fission manifests an augmented Synchronicity on his Synchronicity action, and so on. Jersey then proceeds to use his arbitrarily large number of standard actions to attack the target, regain his psionic focus, or recover power points, as necessary. Because he knows all spells and powers, he will begin with spells which offer no SR or Save, preferably those without an elemental descriptor. Even if he can only hit on a natural twenty, he will eventually do so, given his arbitrarily large number of actions. He will test each individual spell or power until he finds one which works, and then proceed to use said spell or power to render the target dead. Once the target is dead, he will manifest Reality Revision (or, again, Wish or Miracle) to travel to the next copy/clone/whatever of the target, and begins the cycle anew (still the same round, mind you). This continues until no further copies exist.

I'm not sure what I'd to to ensure that the target remains dead, apart from the 'more powerful effects than these' clause in the Greater Reality Benders, and of course I'd prefer to use Miracle for that purpose, given the lack of a 'this may pervert your intent' clause, but that runs into the question of whether or not a Miracle cast by a Psion (or a Shadowcraft Mage, for that matter) counts as "divine energies" for the purposes of this challenge. And it wouldn't really be a non-open ended solution, in any case.

This also assumes that the target is vulnerable to some spell or power which may be cast as a standard action, if none such exists, Jersey is pretty well sunk.

So, at what point does Jersey get killed by the mystery target?

[Erik Vale]

Try 18:

Jersey
Psion 10/Thrallherd 10

Jersey has, through Spell to Power Erudite thralls and Psychic Chirurgery, learned every spell and power printed in whatever sources are available for this challenge (I'm assuming official WotC content is fine, third party is not).
So, at what point does Jersey get killed by the mystery target?

This point, it's a infinite loop as you're either abusing WBL or killing followers/cohorts for their replacement by Thrallherd.

I've noted a error that would effect 2-bit-crusader, meaning he has to die differently, and a potential error as to targeting/finding things, these are being discussed now.

Edit: Also, Miracle to kill it results in mutual destruction if I'm targeted by it's kill ability, which resurrections are no help with.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

This point, it's a infinite loop as you're either abusing WBL or killing followers/cohorts for their replacement by Thrallherd.

I've noted a error that would effect 2-bit-crusader, meaning he has to die differently, and a potential error as to targeting/finding things, these are being discussed now.

Edit: Also, Miracle to kill it results in mutual destruction if I'm targeted by it's kill ability, which resurrections are no help with.

I'm not sure that part of it is actually an infinite loop - the most efficient method probably would be, but it needn't be done all in one go. The Synchronicity/Affinity Field bit would qualify, however. But still, I'm interested to see what the killmail says.

[Erik Vale]

*No Response*

Ok, from what I know of the thing from seeing it's sheet, here's what happens, assuming you make it past learning all the powers.

Giant Clockwork creature in Sigil looks at you, immediately your thralls inside the sphere turn hostile.
Assuming you survive their attacks, 5 rounds later you loose all your class features/etc, take NI damage, and die, turning into a soul gem which one of your ex-thralls promptly picks up.
However, having NI attempts through 'brothers' and all the spells, are there any no save just die spells/powers, or spell/power that cause you to die on a succesful save [over time or not]?
If the answer is yes, you manage to knock it unconscious before you die, but not kill it. However, you do have the ability to follow up with powers/spells of your choice [4 rounds worth, while fighting your ex-thralls that are stuck with you], it being unconscious, it counts as willing for spells [Harmless only I think.].

As for me answering you, I'm allowed to share the sheet, so I'd imagine I'm allowed to share this knowledge.


I'll point out now that my trick would not work as a cleric [my god becomes hostile and wants to kill me, along with all the other ones, instead requiring an arcane caster asking the universe for miracles through the divine domain granting feat and luck domain, and him managing to do it in one round, such as by asking the creature to be removed from the universe without trying to properly identify it to get past any such protections [which doesn't work anyway].
I'll also point out, by wording, various gods would become aware of you and want to kill you on the first round, but as that hasn't been being used, I'm not going to start using it.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

What happens if someone abuses Twinned Celerities to cast more Twinned Celerities? Unlike with infinite Time Stop, which you get extra subjective rounds, this method gives you infinite reactions without ever allowing your one round to end. You can literally keep acting indefinitely with no actual time passing. And once you get to act without anyone else getting to act, there's all sorts of shenanigans. Oh it uses X? I get an infinite number of actions before it uses X. And so on.

[Mystia]

Out of curiosity, may I ask what happens if a Lich tries to challenge this creature?

To be more specific:
An ancient and rules abiding Dry Lich who has never tried any infinite loops. He has got his phylacteries scattered across time; stored in timeless demiplanes; and PaO'd as a vital part of another creature's body (someone important, let's say, the most important champion of the Church of a 20-divine-ranks god). Said Lich also has a way to negate damage, and his phylacteries are all, naturally, protected against divinations and usual means of detection.
Would his body be destroyed? Would his phylacteries get targeted instead of his body? Or would both he and his phylacteries get targeted at the same time?
If his phylacteries get destroyed - would the deity which had it's champion slain gain knowledge of who did it, and take action against it, or would it turn hostile to it's former favorite? (or even better - get it's portfolio sense triggered, and kill said being even before it could slay it's best "relic-bearing greatest hero ever born"?)

[Necroticplague]

O.k, I'll give my another shot at this. Statting up a level 20 character with wealth is a pain, so do excuse me if I speak in vagueness.

Levels: dip in Sorcerer and Cleric, and a bunch of martial dips, including enough crusader to get my IL up to 12.

Feats: Leadership, Multitasking, Imbued Healing, and the prereqs for such

Equipment: +1 Ghost Touch Executioner Axe, +1 ghost touch shuriken.
Auto-resetting repeating magic trap of Hide Life.
Auto-resetting repeating magic trap of Sheild Other (x5).
Auto-resetting repeating magic trap of Masochism and Sadism.
Several thousand Ghostly Arm Grafts.

Special: one of my stances is Aura of Chaos.

Me and 5 poor suckers I have leadership for are arranged in a circle.

Round1:I use my standard actions (Multitasking gives me several thousand) to use the trap of hide life on myself and and 4 of the suckers, as well as the Sheild other traps on all of them. Those 4 suckers also use their traps of sheild other on me. I use the trap of Sadism and Masochism on myself. I hit myself with one of the several thousand incorporeal touch attacks I now have. This creates an infinite damage loop for me and the 4 suckers with Hide Life and Sheild Other up (each of them take half the damage I take, and I take half the damage each of them take. With the 4, this creates a loop). I use another standard to use the Axe to sacrifice the 5th (as per BOVD). With the infinite luck bonus to K:religion, this gives me Wish, which I use to transport me and the 4 suckers to the creature's location. I then use another standard action to use the Executioner's Axe to execute the creature (as per BOVD), with an infinite bonus to the possibly required attack roll and Profession: executioner roll. If that fails (likely do to it either having to neck for me to chop off or it not counting as helpless), then I use another standard action to cast Cure Light Wounds on myself, triggering Imbued Healing (luck). I then throw the Shuriken at the creature, with a +infinite to-hit, doing infinite damage.

[Heliomance]

Y'know that Archivist that tried, and died, and then his brother tried, and got his soul trapped? The first one reanimates as a ghost, with his special purpose tied to taking revenge. What happens?

A random commoner says aloud, "I wonder what's been killing all those high level people?"

A random commoner thinks to himself, "I wonder what's been killing all those high level people?"

A random king says aloud, "I should really get my spymaster to look into anything that could be a threat to me."

A random king thinks to himself, "I should really get my spymaster to look into anything that could be a threat to me."

A random king asks his spymaster to look into anything that could be a threat to him.

A Psion 20 with hostile intent towards the creature uses the Save Game Trick.

A Diplomancer travels to the biggest Planar Metropolis he can, gets together a crowd, makes as many people as he possibly can Fanatic with a single check, and tells them to kill the creature.

[Chronos]

OK, attempt 20 30:
I'll borrow a page from Tippy's book. A 20th-level wizard casts Shapechange, and turns into a Zodar. She uses the Zodar's Wish ability to wish for a caster level 9003 scroll of Ice Assassin, with the Mysterious Entity as its target. Casting Ice Assassin directly would require a piece of the Mysterious Entity as a component, but components are automatically included in scrolls. Casting Wish directly to produce this scroll would cost an insane amount of XP, but using it as a supernatural ability bypasses the XP cost.

The wizard then turns into a Lilitu, giving her the ability to automatically use scrolls without needing a UMD check, and casts Ice Assassin from the scroll. She instructs the resulting Ice Assassin to go kill the entity (which is what it wants to do anyway, being an ice assassin), and then to do whatever it can to restore her, should she have fallen to it in some way.

[Heliomance]

OK, attempt 20 30:
I'll borrow a page from Tippy's book. A 20th-level wizard casts Shapechange, and turns into a Zodar. She uses the Zodar's Wish ability to wish for a caster level 9003 scroll of Ice Assassin, with the Mysterious Entity as its target. Casting Ice Assassin directly would require a piece of the Mysterious Entity as a component, but components are automatically included in scrolls. Casting Wish directly to produce this scroll would cost an insane amount of XP, but using it as a supernatural ability bypasses the XP cost.

The wizard then turns into a Lilitu, giving her the ability to automatically use scrolls without needing a UMD check, and casts Ice Assassin from the scroll. She instructs the resulting Ice Assassin to go kill the entity (which is what it wants to do anyway, being an ice assassin), and then to do whatever it can to restore her, should she have fallen to it in some way.

The wizard's sister then does the same trick, but instead of Wishing for a scroll of Ice Assassin of the creature, she Wishes for a scroll of Ice Assassin of an Aleax of an Ice Assassin of the creature.

[Kazyan]

Attempt 32:

Wizard 12/Loremaster 5, with a really high Knowledge modifiers through whatever wizardly means you deem appropriate, sufficient to know the location of the body of PandorymEE, unless clever wording of a wish obviates the need for this knowledge.

Round 1:
Standard action: Wishaport to location of target.

Round 2:
Standard action: (Su) Wish self and target into the prison where Pandorym's body is located. This probably doesn't work, but assuming unlimited attempts, let's just say we die and repeat all steps up to this point until the target rolls a natural 1.
Move action: Move to be behind the target relative to Pandorym's body.

Round 3:
Attempt to control Pandorym's body as a sphere of annihilation. Per the rules in Elder Evils, it moves towards the controller. The target happens to be in the way.

Spheres of annihilation are fun. No save, no SR, no immunity, You Just DieTM. Unless the target can get out of the way.

[OldTrees1]

I'm not sure how Teleport Through Time works (and all links to it seem to be broken), but assuming it has the same casting time as teleport and lets you pick a point in time:
Turn 2: Your once-friend is now hostile toward you and disregards the note.
Turn 3: Your past-self is now hostile toward you and disregards the note (as part of "take risks to hurt you," eg. risk that he will die by "interfere"-ing with your plan).
Turn 5: Yes. Both you and your 20-year past self. Not your once-friend or past self though.
Edit: Had to fix my response to OldTrees fishing attempt based on re-reading the rules.

Oh, only the present self dies? Nice, we are dealing with a personal timeline timer not a rippling causality timer.

Current plan (not an attempt yet since I do not have all the pieces in one build)
Step 1: Awareness <= [Persisted Foresight]
Step 2: Force multiplier <= [Teleport Thru Time sending only my Thought Bottle and a message to a distant past self.]
Step 3: unforeseen prep steps to be added when the next experiment fails
Step 4: Wish teleport to the creature
Step 5: Expansion 2 sizes (increasing the opening of the Bag of Devouring by 16 fold)
Step 6: Grab the creature and squeeze it into the Bag of Devouring

[Jormengand]

For my next trick, I will posess (as in own, not take control of through ghostiness) a chair, and walk into the same general area as the creature. Assuming the creature doesn't kill me for the heinous crime of owning a chair in its vicinity, I will then, as a single full-round action:


Run most of the way towards the creature.
Drop the chair. (Free action)
Hop onto the chair. (Free as part of my movement)
Jump at least thirty feet above the creature's head, which (taking into account my vertical reach, item familiar, maxed ranks, and Improved Ring of Jumping, isn't actually that hard. (Free as part of my movement)
Craft infinite quarterstaves in his face. (Free action) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17860047&postcount=118)
Drop said quarterstaves. (Free action)
Quick-draw alchemist's fire. (Free action)
Drop alchemist's fire. (Free action)
Watch the world burn. (OMGWTHBBQ action)

[Erik Vale]

Not actual OP responses.


snip
Well, you have unlimited time before it acts against you. Now what?


-snip-
Ok, as far as I know the creature would enter a loop of deaths, each life lasting up to 5 rounds, phlacteries being unharmed, however as it's regenerating it's struck down by the faithful, eventually catching the dieties attention [PM messages indicating you have to actively get the attention of a god, such as the champion going 'Why is there constantly liches, god, help please.'] and then is removed from existance, potentially with the creature ceasing to exist shortly afterwards. Technically, I think this would be a win.



O.k, I'll give my another shot at this. Statting up a level 20 character with wealth is a pain, so do excuse me if I speak in vagueness.

Levels: dip in Sorcerer and Cleric, and a bunch of martial dips, including enough crusader to get my IL up to 12.

Feats: Leadership, Multitasking, Imbued Healing, and the prereqs for such

Equipment: +1 Ghost Touch Executioner Axe, +1 ghost touch shuriken.
Auto-resetting repeating magic trap of Hide Life.
Auto-resetting repeating magic trap of Sheild Other (x5).
Auto-resetting repeating magic trap of Masochism and Sadism.
Several thousand Ghostly Arm Grafts.

Special: one of my stances is Aura of Chaos.

Me and 5 poor suckers I have leadership for are arranged in a circle.

Round1:I use my standard actions (Multitasking gives me several thousand) to use the trap of hide life on myself and and 4 of the suckers, as well as the Sheild other traps on all of them. Those 4 suckers also use their traps of sheild other on me. I use the trap of Sadism and Masochism on myself. I hit myself with one of the several thousand incorporeal touch attacks I now have. This creates an infinite damage loop for me and the 4 suckers with Hide Life and Sheild Other up (each of them take half the damage I take, and I take half the damage each of them take. With the 4, this creates a loop). I use another standard to use the Axe to sacrifice the 5th (as per BOVD). With the infinite luck bonus to K:religion, this gives me Wish, which I use to transport me and the 4 suckers to the creature's location. I then use another standard action to use the Executioner's Axe to execute the creature (as per BOVD), with an infinite bonus to the possibly required attack roll and Profession: executioner roll. If that fails (likely do to it either having to neck for me to chop off or it not counting as helpless), then I use another standard action to cast Cure Light Wounds on myself, triggering Imbued Healing (luck). I then throw the Shuriken at the creature, with a +infinite to-hit, doing infinite damage.
I don't see how you're making the creature helpless, but I can tell you the shuriken does nothing.



Y'know that Archivist that tried, and died, and then his brother tried, and got his soul trapped? The first one reanimates as a ghost, with his special purpose tied to taking revenge. What happens?

A random commoner says aloud, "I wonder what's been killing all those high level people?"

A random commoner thinks to himself, "I wonder what's been killing all those high level people?"

A random king says aloud, "I should really get my spymaster to look into anything that could be a threat to me."

A random king thinks to himself, "I should really get my spymaster to look into anything that could be a threat to me."

A random king asks his spymaster to look into anything that could be a threat to him.

A Psion 20 with hostile intent towards the creature uses the Save Game Trick.

A Diplomancer travels to the biggest Planar Metropolis he can, gets together a crowd, makes as many people as he possibly can Fanatic with a single check, and tells them to kill the creature.
LA prevents him from participating with the challenge, however he would die from damage every time he respawned, and find everyone hostile to him within it's short unlives.
Following OP rules, the various kings die 5 rounds later.
I believe the psion would die, the save would restart, and he'd find his psicrystal hostile. If he could make it work still, he'd live a loop of 5 rounds until dying.
Depends on the crowd, but I think this still results in death.


OK, attempt 20 30:
I'll borrow a page from Tippy's book. A 20th-level wizard casts Shapechange, and turns into a Zodar. She uses the Zodar's Wish ability to wish for a caster level 9003 scroll of Ice Assassin, with the Mysterious Entity as its target. Casting Ice Assassin directly would require a piece of the Mysterious Entity as a component, but components are automatically included in scrolls. Casting Wish directly to produce this scroll would cost an insane amount of XP, but using it as a supernatural ability bypasses the XP cost.

The wizard then turns into a Lilitu, giving her the ability to automatically use scrolls without needing a UMD check, and casts Ice Assassin from the scroll. She instructs the resulting Ice Assassin to go kill the entity (which is what it wants to do anyway, being an ice assassin), and then to do whatever it can to restore her, should she have fallen to it in some way.
First, She dies, then I think the duo spend the rest of their existance in a comatose stupor or the one you created/niether is the victor as the lady of pain wipes one/them from existance due to her being set as hostile. If your one succeeds, it spends some indeterminable time figuring out how to get you back, after some attempts using miracle at which point you stay back with everything behaving normally.
However, that first attempt fails until you pick a number of 10000 or more.


The wizard's sister then does the same trick, but instead of Wishing for a scroll of Ice Assassin of the creature, she Wishes for a scroll of Ice Assassin of an Aleax of an Ice Assassin of the creature.
I think the process repeats. And that's not how Tippy does it. Tippy grabs a random commoner's Alex [or something absurdly powerful that he isn't fighting], and true mind switches with it..


Attempt 32:

Wizard 12/Loremaster 5, with a really high Knowledge modifiers through whatever wizardly means you deem appropriate, sufficient to know the location of the body of PandorymEE, unless clever wording of a wish obviates the need for this knowledge.

Round 1:
Standard action: Wishaport to location of target.

Round 2:
Standard action: (Su) Wish self and target into the prison where Pandorym's body is located. This probably doesn't work, but assuming unlimited attempts, let's just say we die and repeat all steps up to this point until the target rolls a natural 1.
Move action: Move to be behind the target relative to Pandorym's body.

Round 3:
Attempt to control Pandorym's body as a sphere of annihilation. Per the rules in Elder Evils, it moves towards the controller. The target happens to be in the way.

Spheres of annihilation are fun. No save, no SR, no immunity, You Just DieTM. Unless the target can get out of the way.
This doesn't work. Read the bit as to how my miracle ended up working to figure out how you need to word your wish to make it work. I will say that the problem step is the wish.


Oh, only the present self dies? Nice, we are dealing with a personal timeline timer not a rippling causality timer.

Current plan (not an attempt yet since I do not have all the pieces in one build)
Step 1: Awareness <= [Persisted Foresight]
Step 2: Force multiplier <= [Teleport Thru Time sending only my Thought Bottle and a message to a distant past self.]
Step 3: unforeseen prep steps to be added when the next experiment fails
Step 4: Wish teleport to the creature
Step 5: Expansion 2 sizes (increasing the opening of the Bag of Devouring by 16 fold)
Step 6: Grab the creature and squeeze it into the Bag of Devouring
You fail to beat it's grapple check, and note it to be a large creature before you die.


I will say this, characters are dying as they participate not because the creature notices them, but because they happen to be next on the NI long list due to participating on the challenge, with it set on removing everything on the list from existance.

[OldTrees1]

You fail to beat it's grapple check, and note it to be a large creature before you die.

It is only large? Wow. I might not even need to squeeze it in. I might be able to just put the bag over its head after the bag grows to 8ft/16ft diameter (the bag of holding dimensions are unclear as to which dimension is the diameter) from 7pp expansion.

As for the grapple check, I presume you are implying it has immunity to grapple. A very high (10^x) grapple modifier would fail?

Actually I am over thinking this. Why not trade Expansion out for cl 19 Giant Size and then place the 32ft x 64ft Bag of Devouring over the creature?

[Heliomance]

Depends on the crowd, but I think this still results in death.


Not what I was trying to find out. I want to know what happens to the crowd - does it all die at once, or does one member die every d4+1 rounds?

Also, a Dvati pair. Once of them announces their intent to destroy the creature, the other disagrees and says they should leave it alone.

[Inevitability]

Be a 20th-level druid/planar shepherd with a high-level wizard cohort. Have wizzy teleport+planeshift you to the creature. Then, as a readied action, Planar Bubble ability.

Did I mention your chosen plane was the far realms? And Lords of Madness mentions that 'none ever return from the far realms'.

Wave to the creature as it plunges into eternal madness.


1. Have wizard cast whatever divination spells the previous person to reach the creature required.

2. Have wizard cast Plane Shift to get where he wants. Ready action.

3. Eventually have wizard cast Teleport if you aren't quite where you want. Ready action.

4. Planar Bubble.

5. Be awesome.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

What happens if someone abuses Twinned Celerities to cast more Twinned Celerities? Unlike with infinite Time Stop, which you get extra subjective rounds, this method gives you infinite reactions without ever allowing your one round to end. You can literally keep acting indefinitely with no actual time passing. And once you get to act without anyone else getting to act, there's all sorts of shenanigans. Oh it uses X? I get an infinite number of actions before it uses X. And so on.


Not actual OP responses.


Well, you have unlimited time before it acts against you. Now what?

If Twinned Celerities allows unlimited time before the thing acts against the caster, wouldn't Jersey's Affinity Field/Synchronicity action loop do the same? Keep in mind, the action loop was established before engaging the creature.

[Lonely Tylenol]

It is only large? Wow. I might not even need to squeeze it in. I might be able to just put the bag over its head after the bag grows to 8ft/16ft diameter (the bag of holding dimensions are unclear as to which dimension is the diameter) from 7pp expansion.

As for the grapple check, I presume you are implying it has immunity to grapple. A very high (10^x) grapple modifier would fail?

Actually I am over thinking this. Why not trade Expansion out for cl 19 Giant Size and then place the 32ft x 64ft Bag of Devouring over the creature?

Because the bag itself makes a grapple check if the player doesn't make a grapple check. One way or another, a grapple check is being made.

Source: risen from the dead upon mention of my name, killed Stuffy Doll with this trick. :smallamused:

I see Cancer Mage has been muted retroactively by virtue of dying five rounds into completion of the build (well before Festering Anger has had time to, well, fester), so I'm willing to guess that this thing has time recursion shenanigans built into it, and time recursion shenanigans have never been my cup of tea. My second option would be to be a Frenzied Berserker 4/(some other class levels, preferably in things that advance full BAB 16) with a level 17 Wizard cohort (who has banned neither Conjuration nor Transmutation, is preferably a Transmutation specialist, but may as well be a generalist) and at least a handful of followers. After prebuffing with Giant Size and Etherealness (scroll of Giant Size on myself, Etherealness from the caster), I use the infinite damage + Sadism/Masochism loop Necroticplague details to deal infinity damage to myself, gaining an infinity/10 luck bonus to my attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks, and also making a DC 10+infinity Will save to avoid entering a Frenzy (I fail). My cohort casts Quickened Calm Emotions on me, using the Swift Concentration skill trick to maintain concentration as a swift action, which suppresses (but does not end) the Frenzy, eliminating the +6 STR bonus, -4 penalty to AC, the inability to use skills which require concentration, and my incontrovertible bloodlust (I am Calm now), but retaining the benefits of Deathless Frenzy, as well as my luck bonuses (they are not morale bonuses). My mind now freed, I use my infinite knowledge (attained through just enough cross-class ranks in every knowledge to make them usable, plus an infinity bonus to all skills through Sadism/Masochism) to instantly ascertain the location of this creature and, with pinpoint accuracy, relay the details to my cohort (a free action) so that he may Greater Teleport us to the exact location. Once there, I grab my super-large Bag of Devouring, sneak up on the creature (with an infinity luck bonus to Hide and Move Silently), and throw the bag over this creature, making my attack roll with an infinity luck bonus, bypassing incorporeality via Etherealness, and making the grapple check as a Colossal creature with presumably very high STR (I did not care to stat this out, but if necessary, I can). If I exhibit hesitation due to Calm Emotions, I instead ready the action to slip the bag over its head with the ready trigger "the spell Calm Emotions ends", and then my cohort, on his initiative, breaks his concentration on the Calm Emotions spell, allowing me to take all hostile actions again.

Total time spent: 2 rounds (3 with specific pre-buffs).

I don't think it has been done in this specific fashion, but I might be wrong. As far as I know, the problem hasn't been "the Bag of Devouring" doesn't work, but "I can't get the Bag of Devouring over the creature".


If Twinned Celerities allows unlimited time before the thing acts against the caster, wouldn't Jersey's Affinity Field/Synchronicity action loop do the same? Keep in mind, the action loop was established before engaging the creature.

Why would Twinned Celerities allow you to cast more Twinned Celerities? Celerity is an immediate action cast, and does not grant you an immediate action. (You cannot cast immediate action spells as standard actions, unless I have been missing something important all these years.)

[Erik Vale]

Not what I was trying to find out. I want to know what happens to the crowd - does it all die at once, or does one member die every d4+1 rounds?

Also, a Dvati pair. Once of them announces their intent to destroy the creature, the other disagrees and says they should leave it alone.

You'd be the first to be targetted, with the crowd spontainously turning hostile against you, so the exact manner of your death depends on the crowds power level.


Be a 20th-level druid/planar shepherd with a high-level wizard cohort. Have wizzy teleport+planeshift you to the creature. Then, as a readied action, Planar Bubble ability.

Did I mention your chosen plane was the far realms? And Lords of Madness mentions that 'none ever return from the far realms'.

Wave to the creature as it plunges into eternal madness.


1. Have wizard cast whatever divination spells the previous person to reach the creature required.

2. Have wizard cast Plane Shift to get where he wants. Ready action.

3. Eventually have wizard cast Teleport if you aren't quite where you want. Ready action.

4. Planar Bubble.

5. Be awesome.
1 Fails, causing 2 and 3 to fail.
Wouldn't Planar bubble also send you to the Far Realm then? Though were it to work I'm not sure whether it'd be a win.


If Twinned Celerities allows unlimited time before the thing acts against the caster, wouldn't Jersey's Affinity Field/Synchronicity action loop do the same? Keep in mind, the action loop was established before engaging the creature.
I'm not as high on my op-fu as I could be with Psionics, if it would give you unlimited time with no relative time passing I think it'd work. [So Timestop doesn't work, but this might]
In this case, you have unlimited time, now do you have any no save just die powers? What means do you have to kill it beyond damage/save inflicting spells?
However, I'm still of the thought that you'd die earlier due to the loop counting as participating, or that you would not count for the challenge having higher WBL through powers. But I believe that can be gotten around of with 'brothers'.




I see Cancer Mage has been muted retroactively by virtue of dying five rounds into completion of the build (well before Festering Anger has had time to, well, fester), so I'm willing to guess that this thing has time recursion shenanigans built into it, and time recursion shenanigans have never been my cup of tea. My second option would be to be a Frenzied Berserker 4/(some other class levels, preferably in things that advance full BAB 16) with a level 17 Wizard cohort (who has banned neither Conjuration nor Transmutation, is preferably a Transmutation specialist, but may as well be a generalist) and at least a handful of followers. After prebuffing with Giant Size and Etherealness (scroll of Giant Size on myself, Etherealness from the caster), I use the infinite damage + Sadism/Masochism loop Necroticplague details to deal infinity damage to myself, gaining an infinity/10 luck bonus to my attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks, and also making a DC 10+infinity Will save to avoid entering a Frenzy (I fail). My cohort casts Quickened Calm Emotions on me, using the Swift Concentration skill trick to maintain concentration as a swift action, which suppresses (but does not end) the Frenzy, eliminating the +6 STR bonus, -4 penalty to AC, the inability to use skills which require concentration, and my incontrovertible bloodlust (I am Calm now), but retaining the benefits of Deathless Frenzy, as well as my luck bonuses (they are not morale bonuses). My mind now freed, I use my infinite knowledge (attained through just enough cross-class ranks in every knowledge to make them usable, plus an infinity bonus to all skills through Sadism/Masochism) to instantly ascertain the location of this creature and, with pinpoint accuracy, relay the details to my cohort (a free action) so that he may Greater Teleport us to the exact location. Once there, I grab my super-large Bag of Devouring, sneak up on the creature (with an infinity luck bonus to Hide and Move Silently), and throw the bag over this creature, making my attack roll with an infinity luck bonus, bypassing incorporeality via Etherealness, and making the grapple check as a Colossal creature with presumably very high STR (I did not care to stat this out, but if necessary, I can). If I exhibit hesitation due to Calm Emotions, I instead ready the action to slip the bag over its head with the ready trigger "the spell Calm Emotions ends", and then my cohort, on his initiative, breaks his concentration on the Calm Emotions spell, allowing me to take all hostile actions again.

Total time spent: 2 rounds (3 with specific pre-buffs).

I don't think it has been done in this specific fashion, but I might be wrong. As far as I know, the problem hasn't been "the Bag of Devouring" doesn't work, but "I can't get the Bag of Devouring over the creature".

Ok, you don't need to bypass incorporeality with this build, however you notice it's a construct, thus the bag isn't interested. Also, the bag needs to make a grapple check. However with a infinitely high int mod, wouldn't you be able to see it's sheet with your knowledge check [or the sheet of a basic one, which this one is]?

[Kazyan]

Cleric 3/Wizard 7/Dweomerkeeper (Wizard) 10. Initiate of Mystra. Standard Wishaport to location, boop it with (Su) Polymorph Any Object via a +1 Ghost Touch Necklace of Natural Attacks. Repeat up to this point until it rolls a natural 1. If this works, its racial qualities should be replaced with those of a vial of alchemist's fire if I'm doing this right. Then, smash the vial.

[Erik Vale]

You fail to touch it.

[Kazyan]

Do it again. Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 6/Dweomerkeeper (Wizard) 8. This time, cast Ghostform and Surge of Fortune before Wishaporting--the whole plan is still within the 5-round time limit. Use Ghostform to try to get through the incorporeality this time and Surge of Fortune for a natural 20 on the attack roll. Also, the (Su) PaO will turn the creature into a bead of caesium this time (so it will self-destruct without my intervention), because I don't think I have time to smash the vial. Where do I fail this time?

[Erik Vale]

Despite the critical your hand passes through it, same as with the ghost touch.
Assuming you then check to see if it's a image out of confusion, you find it's not.



I will say this much, I'm not sure where he got this version of incorporeality from in the rules, but I'd never use it myself.

[Bad Wolf]

Be a Diplomancer, make the Lady of Pain a Fanatic, tell her to kill it?

[Erik Vale]

Attracting the Lady of Pains attention to speak to her actually results in your rather painful and permanent death, from my knowledge of her + Sigil's fluff. Possibly before you could actually speak.

[Bad Wolf]

Attracting the Lady of Pains attention to speak to her actually results in your rather painful and permanent death, from my knowledge of her + Sigil's fluff. Possibly before you could actually speak.

But it might work. Is there any information on her anywhere?

[Kazyan]

Ditch the Ghostform, then. I now have the Smiting Spell metamagic feat, and will be using it on PaO, letting me basically channel the spell through my +1 Ghost Touch Riverine dagger. The dagger is a force effect. That doesn't work either?

EDIT: And turn on my Blade of Force feat, too.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Why would Twinned Celerities allow you to cast more Twinned Celerities? Celerity is an immediate action cast, and does not grant you an immediate action. (You cannot cast immediate action spells as standard actions, unless I have been missing something important all these years.)

I'm not certain, with that one - I was simply trying to figure out why one mechanism of achieving arbitrarily large numbers of actions within one round would work, and another wouldn't. Thought that it might be illuminating, to whatever degree, if we could work out the specifics.


I'm not as high on my op-fu as I could be with Psionics, if it would give you unlimited time with no relative time passing I think it'd work. [So Timestop doesn't work, but this might]
In this case, you have unlimited time, now do you have any no save just die powers? What means do you have to kill it beyond damage/save inflicting spells?
However, I'm still of the thought that you'd die earlier due to the loop counting as participating, or that you would not count for the challenge having higher WBL through powers. But I believe that can be gotten around of with 'brothers'.

The Mad Minute trick allows an arbitrarily large number of standard actions to be taken during one round of game time (so no relative time like you'd see with Timestop). If I were able to acquire all printed spells and powers (which needn't use infinite loops or anything, just time (or time and money and use of powers native to the class)) and there is a spell or power which is No Save Just Die to which the mystery target is susceptible, and as long as my long first round is not interrupted, then it sounds like I knock the thing unconscious. Should I start compiling a list of what order I test things in, or is the notion that Jersey has all of them sufficient to find out which one(s) work?

[Sith_Happens]

Wait, at what point did touching the entity become necessary in order to PAO it?:smallconfused:

[Kazyan]

Wait, at what point did touching the entity become necessary in order to PAO it?:smallconfused:

Since I forgot that it was a Close range spell, seeing as how I have literally never used it before.

[Erik Vale]

@ PAO: *Looks*
It doesn't need a touch attack, but that's how it was being delivered for some reason. From my reading of it, it seems only objects get saves/SR, which is weird...
Now, when someone attempts to PAO it without delivering it as a touch attack:
[Random Breakable Object]: The creature breaks, the polymorph wears off, it regenerates.
[Unstable Chemical]: I think this kills it, becoming the third potential kill [In order so far being Miracle, Far Realm [?], Turned to a unstable chemical [?]]
I can think of three more kill methods, one that's come up in the thread but didn't work [see the orb of anhialation], and one can jokingly come in arrow format, but is only a maybe win in a manner similar to being dumped in the Far Realm.
People have been on the right track with grabbing the lady of pain, but they're choosing the wrong something to contact.

@ Mad Minute:
I need you to find a spell to destroy it. However, you will learn:
It has regeneration bypassed only by spells that cause death.
It's a construct.
It passes all saves.
All attempts to touch it fail.
It's large.
Divinations don't work on it or anything in it's surroundings.
It has 10000HD.

And I think that's about all you'd learn. Now come up with a spell to kill it aside from miracle.

[ekarney]

I use a level 20 Domovoi artificer, with 23 ranks in bluff. (I'm assuming 32 point buy, I put all points into Charisma, and for every ability gain I choose charisma)

I use one turn to say "If you continue your existence, the Omnidieties will blow up the multiverse and call you mean names, so you HAVE to end your own existence, now."

Does that work? Is it allowed?

[Sith_Happens]

From my reading of it, it seems only objects get saves/SR, which is weird...

If you're talking about the "(object)" in the Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines, that just means that a given spell affects objects as well as creatures.

[Erik Vale]

Bluff: I think it'd target itself, and because it's Regen is EX and would get stripped, it'd die 1d4+1 rounds later of NI damage. [Your Bluff is after incredible mod 3 points higher than it's sense motive, so it'll do this 13/20 times.] Being in Sigil we'll say you just moseyed on up to it because that's possible.

PAO: Ah, ok, that doesn't work then.

[Sith_Happens]

@ Mad Minute:
I need you to find a spell to destroy it. However, you will learn:
It has regeneration bypassed only by spells that cause death.
It's a construct.
It passes all saves.
All attempts to touch it fail.
It's large.
Divinations don't work on it or anything in it's surroundings.
It has 10000HD.

And I think that's about all you'd learn. Now come up with a spell to kill it aside from miracle.

Is there any way to get a psionic power to deal vile damage? If so, that'll render it unconscious indefinitely.

[Kazyan]

One more try and then I quit: Wish for scroll of CL "Yes" Holy Word. Shapechange into Lilitu. Use scroll next to it.

[ekarney]

Bluff: I think it'd target itself, and because it's Regen is EX and would get stripped, it'd die 1d4+1 rounds later of NI damage. [Your Bluff is after incredible mod 3 points higher than it's sense motive, so it'll do this 13/20 times.] Being in Sigil we'll say you just moseyed on up to it because that's possible.

PAO: Ah, ok, that doesn't work then.



I'd actually really rudisplork a bluffmancer if you told me what rolling system you'd have us use if you wanted?
To be fair, I'd be 100% useless at everything else but y'know, purposes and whatnot.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

@ Mad Minute:
I need you to find a spell to destroy it. However, you will learn:
It has regeneration bypassed only by spells that cause death.
It's a construct.
It passes all saves.
All attempts to touch it fail.
It's large.
Divinations don't work on it or anything in it's surroundings.
It has 10000HD.

And I think that's about all you'd learn. Now come up with a spell to kill it aside from miracle.

Spells that cause death, or spells that are [Death] effects? If it's the latter, then there is not likely to be such a spell (as constructs are immune to [Death] effects). If the former, then does the thing have spell/power resistance? Do spells requiring a ranged touch attack fall afoul of the "All attempts to touch it fail" clause? If not, (at least) ten thousand manifestations of Enervation should do the trick. If the target has spell/power resistance which is low enough to be overcome, even if only on a natural twenty, continued manifestation of Enervation will yield the same result.

To give more suggestions, I'd need to know if it has Power/Spell Resistance (and if so, if said resistance is low enough to be overcome, even if it's only on a natural twenty), if the thing is immune to Force effects, if the thing is immune to Fire, Cold, Acid, Electricity, or Sonic energy, and if ranged touch attack spells/powers fail to work (or if some work (like, say, Evocations) and some do not (like, say, Conjurations)).

If anyone can think of a spell that might otherwise work, I'm open to suggestions.

[Erik Vale]

One more try and then I quit: Wish for scroll of CL "Yes" Holy Word. Shapechange into Lilitu. Use scroll next to it.

It goes unconscious for a while. Now what?


I'd actually really rudisplork a bluffmancer if you told me what rolling system you'd have us use if you wanted?
To be fair, I'd be 100% useless at everything else but y'know, purposes and whatnot.

I'm not sure what you mean... However from what I know, having NI attempts, you kill it.


Spells that cause death, or spells that are [Death] effects? If it's the latter, then there is not likely to be such a spell (as constructs are immune to [Death] effects). If the former, then does the thing have spell/power resistance? Do spells requiring a ranged touch attack fall afoul of the "All attempts to touch it fail" clause? If not, (at least) ten thousand manifestations of Enervation should do the trick. If the target has spell/power resistance which is low enough to be overcome, even if only on a natural twenty, continued manifestation of Enervation will yield the same result.

To give more suggestions, I'd need to know if it has Power/Spell Resistance (and if so, if said resistance is low enough to be overcome, even if it's only on a natural twenty), if the thing is immune to Force effects, if the thing is immune to Fire, Cold, Acid, Electricity, or Sonic energy, and if ranged touch attack spells/powers fail to work (or if some work (like, say, Evocations) and some do not (like, say, Conjurations)).

If anyone can think of a spell that might otherwise work, I'm open to suggestions.

Cause death, as a constructs it's immune to death, as sated. It does not have SR. I think so.
As far as I know, it'd be immune to all effects requiring it to be touched. It's immune to damage, it looks like constructs/it aren't immune to level drain, so if Enervation would work, if it could hit.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Cause death, as a constructs it's immune to death, as sated. It does not have SR. I think so.
As far as I know, it'd be immune to all effects requiring it to be touched. It's immune to damage, it looks like constructs/it aren't immune to level drain, so if Enervation would work, if it could hit.

Even if Enervation only hits on a natural twenty, Jersey will eventually hit sufficient times to deal 10,000 negative levels. Does that about do it?

If not, Jersey uses a standard action to manifest Dragon Breath, giving him a breath weapon. Using his swift action for the round, he manifests Enervating Breath, meaning his breath weapon deals negative levels. Using his next standard action (from Synchronicity) he uses his breath weapon on the target (dealing negative levels, no save). On his next Synchronicity standard action, he manifests Dispel Psionics, targeting Dragon Breath. Then, on his next Synchronicity standard, he manifests Dragon Breath, getting around the "you must wait 1d4 rounds before using [your breath weapon] again" clause. He then uses his breath weapon, dispels his breath weapon, and regains it, beginning the cycle anew, and so on, until the target is dead.

Does that work?

Edit:
To answer my own question, probably not, since Enervating Breath requires the target to fail its save, which this one will not do. Which means I'm looking for a means to deal negative levels, with no save, no attack roll, and using a standard action to manifest/cast, if I want to continue down the negative levels route (and if Enervation doesn't hit on a natural twenty, of course).

[ekarney]

I meant I'd actually roll up the full character for super bluff boosts

Provided you could tell me what system youd use for determining ability scores (3d6, X point buy etc)

That being said, HELL YEAH I WIN

[Kazyan]

It goes unconscious for a while. Now what?

Take a selfie with it. #YOLO #sigil #rudisplork

[Inevitability]

@Planar Shepherd:

As the PS gains immunity for the inherit harmful effects of the Far Realms, being in a bubble that imitates them wouldn't be a problem for him. Going into the actual far realms would probably cause him to be eaten by the D&D equivalent of SCP-682 in 0.34242534 nanoseconds, but in an environment that merely posesses all traits of the Far Realms he wouldn't be harmed.

So now I gotta get close to the monster, hm? Okay... plan B!

Round 1: Have wizard cohort cast Gate to summon an Efreeti.
Round 2: Have the aforementioned Efreeti send you to a place exactly 5 feet from the creature's location. Ready an action to Planar Bubble.
Round 3: FEELZ MAH PLANAR BUBBLE!
Round 4: ???
Round 5: Profit!

[arclance]

I will say this much, I'm not sure where he got this version of incorporeality from in the rules, but I'd never use it myself.
The last printing of the rules for Incorporeality were printed in a sidebar in Tome of Battle (conviently the last 3.5 book printed) for the One With Shadow maneuver.
It was included because "The incorporeal subtype was updated in Monster Manual III for clarity.".
Since this is the very last version of the rules (and is reprinted from Monster Manual III) it should be the version in use by RAW.


The releveant part for the problems you are having here is this section.

Non magical attacks made by an incorporeal creature with a melee weapon have no effect on corporeal targets, and any melee attack an incorporeal creature makes with a magic weapon against a corporeal target has a 50% miss chance, except for attacks it makes with a ghost touch weapon, which are made normally (no miss chance).



Edit:
To answer my own question, probably not, since Enervating Breath requires the target to fail its save, which this one will not do. Which means I'm looking for a means to deal negative levels, with no save, no attack roll, and using a standard action to manifest/cast, if I want to continue down the negative levels route (and if Enervation doesn't hit on a natural twenty, of course).
Would a half shadow dragon with a half on a reflex save negative level breath weapon work?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Why would Twinned Celerities allow you to cast more Twinned Celerities?
Because the first ones might be from your own slots but the others are from spell-trigger item which needs standard action. Or you can be a sorceror, use greater celerity and have the application of metamagic extend the casting time. In either case, provided you use one of the many infinite wealth tricks, you get to have infinite actions per round.


BTW, as for a construct with regeneration, you can use your infinite number of actions (see above) and the Spell Rehearsal feat to get infinite CL and/or infinite DC. Once you do that;


1) Blasphemy, infinite CL = unconcious.
2) Unconsciouc = willing. Call/make/be a ghost, then possess it.
3) Have fun being the second most powerful being in the universe (after yourself)

[rockdeworld]

*No Response*
Yes, it seemed like it would take too long to read/respond to and get to bed at a reasonable time.

Ok, I did some tweaking to the creature to get version 2. V1 had a few inherently confusing rules that I've done my best to iron out (so as to not cause a paradox, say). Starting from the post where Erik Vale killed the first one, I'll use v2 to respond*.

*But thank you Erik for stepping up and answering questions in my absence. If I answer differently than you, chalk it up to v2 having different (and clearer) abilities than the v1 sheet you have.

Speaking of which, v2 would have the same effects on the victims up to Erik Vale's post except the following:
-Erik Vale's miracles fail (of course), and I got the impression he was worshiping a concept, so his character dies in the same manner (stripped of abilities, then damage).
-OldTrees1 Fishing Attempt 3 - I'm don't think Teleport through Time works that way, given the material components (and target), so it seems to me this is invalid.
-Everyone without Foresight (or something similar) is taken by surprise (0 rounds instead of 5 - not actually a change, just something I haven't been applying up til now).

Onwards!

Kalaska'Agathas's Jersey: Dies immediately (i.e. before casting Fission, after being a StP Thrallherd with Psion followers etc.).

Belial_the_Leveler's Twinned Celerities: I'd need to see a specific build to answer concretely.

Mystia's Lich: Body destroyed while scattering phylacteries. When he comes back to life he's destroyed again before he can take actions. The phylacteries are not destroyed.

Necroticplague: Dies immediately (before the start of round 1).

Heliomance: I might need to modify the creature's stats if we're going to apply realism but...
The first archivist: can soul-bound creatures rise as ghosts? Anyway, LA is probably too high as Erik said.
The random commoners-kings: Nothing, yet.
Psion/Diplomancer: how would they get knowledge that it's a creature? Assuming a lucky guess: nothing, yet.
None of them find anything though.

RL calls, I'll be back later.

[TheGeckoKing]

I think I have a way of winning, or at least forcing a draw, by virtue of Shaper of Form being poorly written/edited (props to the Dysfunctional Rules thread for this).
A Warforged Wizard 5/Shaper of Form 1 (We shall call him Epoch, and he MUST have at least 19 Con) is able to use the Modify Form (Renaissance) to become a Zodar (Fiend Folio), because they're both constructs (even if one has the living construct subtype) and the Zodar stat block lacks the "Level Adjustment:" line altogether (in my book, at least), so it doesn't have any Level Adjustments and thus meats the requirements for the class ability. Sure, you don't gain any stat changes, but that's REALLY good, because it means we keep our Int and our Con scores. This means he gains the Invulnerability (Ex) quality, so only attacks from bludgeoning weapons can do ANYTHING to him and they don't gain their enhancement bonuses on anything, but quite frankly that's not good enough.
If we take the most literal view of the rules, then by changing race from Warforged to Zodar, we also inherit the Zodar's 16HD? Bad idea? Good idea. For Epoch's 9th level feat, he takes Shape Soulmeld (Brood Keeper's Heart) and for his 21st level (out of 22 HD total) he takes Open Heart Chakra and due to Renaissance's wording, we still have our Con score to qualify for both feats, although it would be fair to infer that we don't gain ability score increases from the RHD. Brood Keeper's Heart is a soulmeld from Dragon Magazine 350 (100% official content, guys! :smallbiggrin:) that when bound to the Heart Chakra grants the Swarm Subtype, which in turn grants immunity to weapon damage if you are Diminutive or Fine sized, which Minute Form (Complete Arcane) can do for us.
As for shopping, we need two things. First, we need to buy a normal gauntlet, and a Weapon Graft (Fiend Folio again) of a Masterwork Tower Shield. Yes, it's an Improvised Masterwork Weapon, but it's Masterwork and a Weapon so it doesn't matter.
Now then, the 5 rounds are as follows;
Round 1 - Epoch uses his Wish (Su) for a ring that grants a continual Minute Form at CL 25.
Round 2 - Epoch puts the gauntlet on the hand with the ring on it, blocking line of sight/effect, so the ring can't be dispelled or more importantly disjoined. Epoch then uses his Tower Shield (which you can't sunder or disarm) to take Total Cover, blocking himself and his Brood Keeper's Heart from dispelling/disjoining.
Rounds 3 to Infinity - Epoch continues to take Total Cover until the Heat Death of Creation kills everything.

....So, did that work?

[Seppo87]

my character became pun-pun in his background and my dm allowed it. Since it passed, it hasn't yet been retroactively stopped as the game starts.
As soon as the game starts, I have full pun-pun powers and can retroactively stop OP's character instead.

I insist: my character does retroactively prevent OP's character with NI actions from an undetectable source, dimension, plane or time.

If this implies a loop, as OP's character insists that he should be able to do that first instead, I call bull**** and leave the gaming table unless a theoretical draw is assumed

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Would a half shadow dragon with a half on a reflex save negative level breath weapon work?

I'd have to see the shadow dragon statblock to know for sure. It wouldn't work with the Dragon Breath/Enervating Breath combo, since the Shadow Dragon's breath weapon isn't one of those listed in the spell.


Yes, it seemed like it would take too long to read/respond to and get to bed at a reasonable time.

Ok, I did some tweaking to the creature to get version 2. V1 had a few inherently confusing rules that I've done my best to iron out (so as to not cause a paradox, say). Starting from the post where Erik Vale killed the first one, I'll use v2 to respond.

Speaking of which, it would have the same effects on the victims up to Erik Vale's post except the following:
-Erik Vale's miracles fail (of course), and I got the impression he was worshipping a concept, so his character dies in the same manner (stripped of abilities, then damage).
-OldTrees1 Fishing Attempt 3 - I'm don't think Teleport through Time works that way, given the material components (and target), so it seems to me this is invalid.
-Everyone without Foresight (or something similar) is taken by surprise (0 rounds instead of 5 - not actually a change, just something I haven't been applying up til now).

Onwards!

Kalaska'Agathas's Jersey: Dies immediately (i.e. before casting Fission, after being a StP Thrallherd with Psion followers etc.).

Belial_the_Leveler's Twinned Celerities: I'd need to see a specific build to answer concretely.

Mystia's Lich: Body destroyed while scattering phylacteries. When he comes back to life he's destroyed again before he can take actions. The phylacteries are not destroyed.

Necroticplague: Dies immediately (before the start of round 1).

Heliomance: I might need to modify the creature's stats if we're going to apply realism but...
The first archivist: can soul-bound creatures rise as ghosts? Anyway, LA is probably too high as Erik said.
The random commoners-kings: Nothing, yet.
Psion/Diplomancer: how would they get knowledge that it's a creature? Assuming a lucky guess: nothing, yet.
None of them find anything though.

RL calls, I'll be back later.

If Jersey (who is a Psion with StP Thralls, rather than an StP with Psion Thralls, incidentally) has Foresight up, does that give him the five rounds to establish his action loop and engage the target? If so, then, with Foresight up, Jersey uses his standard to manifest Affinity Field, Thrall 1 (within the field) manifests an augmented Synchronicity, and Jersey is able to establish his combo and then proceeds as previously described (so long as the target is unable to interrupt a single round action loop, that is).

[ReluctantDragon]

my character became pun-pun in his background and my dm allowed it. Since it passed, it hasn't yet been retroactively stopped as the game starts.
As soon as the game starts, I have full pun-pun powers and can retroactively stop OP's character instead.

I insist: my character does retroactively prevent OP's character with NI actions from an undetectable source, dimension, plane or time.

If this implies a loop, as OP's character insists that he should be able to do that first instead, I call bull**** and leave the gaming table unless a theoretical draw is assumed

Uhm...Troll much?:smallwink:

To clarify this:

OP isn't using a character. OP is the DM in this situation, running an encounter with a creature. Seeing as how you are dependent upon something happening before mechanical creation, you essentially aren't sitting down at the table in the first place. Seeing as how you didn't sit down in the first place, your absence isn't missed and a draw doesn't have to be assumed, considered, or even fancied.

Moving on...

[Heliomance]

Heliomance: I might need to modify the creature's stats if we're going to apply realism but...
The first archivist: can soul-bound creatures rise as ghosts? Anyway, LA is probably too high as Erik said.
The random commoners-kings: Nothing, yet.
Psion/Diplomancer: how would they get knowledge that it's a creature? Assuming a lucky guess: nothing, yet.
None of them find anything though.

RL calls, I'll be back later.

The first Archivist wasn't soulbound, only his brother was. Still, the relevant thing I was trying to find out is whether it can somehow permanently kill a ghost.

For the Psion and the Diplomancer, let's say they know someone that was killed and swear vengeance right before doing their thing.

[Seppo87]

Uhm...Troll much?:smallwink:

To clarify this:

OP isn't using a character. OP is the DM in this situation, running an encounter with a creature. Seeing as how you are dependent upon something happening before mechanical creation, you essentially aren't sitting down at the table in the first place. Seeing as how you didn't sit down in the first place, your absence isn't missed and a draw doesn't have to be assumed, considered, or even fancied.

Moving on...

I was trying to subtly suggest an equal ground. The way it is now there is no way, it won't let you even try retroactively killing the character. why can't my character do the same then

[OldTrees1]

The first Archivist wasn't soulbound, only his brother was. Still, the relevant thing I was trying to find out is whether it can somehow permanently kill a ghost.

For the Psion and the Diplomancer, let's say they know someone that was killed and swear vengeance right before doing their thing.

I thought all victims were soulbound.
Ghosts can "just die" and be soulbound even if they have 15+ HD.


I was trying to subtly suggest an equal ground. The way it is now there is no way, it won't let you even try retroactively killing the character. why can't my character do the same then

It doesn't retroactively kill you. It kills you 1d4+1 rounds after it starts the fight. Just make sure your character is aware of when Turn 1 occurs.
I am still checking to see if there is a way to retroactively kill it. Evidence points to yes with difficultly but also points to it being unneeded.



-OldTrees1 Fishing Attempt 3 - I'm don't think Teleport through Time works that way, given the material components (and target), so it seems to me this is invalid.
-Everyone without Foresight (or something similar) is taken by surprise (0 rounds instead of 5 - not actually a change, just something I haven't been applying up til now).

RL calls, I'll be back later.

Wait, could you explain. I believe the spell can be used to send objects back, but perhaps I am erroneous in my method?
Am I wrong that the caster can forgo the trip? If so then I would need to cast the spell twice and not meet myself during the interval.
What about the material components would hinder this effort?

Side Questions for OP:
Would a bag of devouring consume the creature in 1 round if the bag is placed over the creature?
Would there be a grapple check to place the bag over the creature if the bag is larger than the creature's space?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ok, you don't need to bypass incorporeality with this build, however you notice it's a construct, thus the bag isn't interested. Also, the bag needs to make a grapple check. However with a infinitely high int mod, wouldn't you be able to see it's sheet with your knowledge check [or the sheet of a basic one, which this one is]?

I'm pretty sure my inbox is full and I'm lazy, so I'll try to defeat it with a clever workaround before I resort to actually learning about this creature:

What happens when I grapple it, pin it down, and then, while holding the pinned creature to my chest, reach into the bag myself? Presumably, the Bag of Devouring cannot be selective of which of the two of us it eats, because for all intents and purposes, this creature is something I am carrying.

[1pwny]

Okay, I'm going to list everything we know about the enemy right here, right now, so that you guys can get to work on figuring out what it is:
Fight Information:

It does NI Untyped damage. Strait HP damage.
If the damage doesn't work, you just die. You die from being targeted.
Doesn't require Line of Effect.
If you can figure out when the first round starts, you have 1d4+1 rounds to survive. Apparently, Time Stop does not change this limit.
(Ex) ability to strip all abilities, even class ones.
Simultaneously hits you and your astral projection.
Targeting with kill ability kills you.
You can't touch it.
Super saves, super SR, can't be touched (?), 10000 HD.

Creature Information:

In Sigil
Made of steampunk. Giant Clockwork creature.
All attempts to gather Name information fail.
Makes everything Hostile towards you.


Hypothesis: It kills you if you target it? So don't target it? And don't bring its attention to you... hm... Wait a sec, let me think...

[OldTrees1]

Hypothesis: It kills you if you target it? So don't target it? And don't bring its attention to you... hm... Wait a sec, let me think...

Nice list.
It does not care about your intentions. You are simply next on the list.

[Immabozo]

Is dragon magazine material allowed? Specifically the Pig Bonded flaw?

[Urpriest]

Is dragon magazine material allowed? Specifically the Pig Bonded flaw?

Your assumption that Orcus can defeat this thing is laughable. Though I guess Orcus appearing in Sigil would at least get the Lady's attention.

[No brains]

I'm going to put away my knife to try and cut this Gordian knot.

I want to be the shortest lived of all available creatures. The shortest I know is diopsid who I think lives to 16. I want to lose the ability to sense anything somehow. A continuous unconscious state would probably work, so I need awful con. Flaws might help too.

And that's it. I never become aware of this creature's existence, never attempt to harm it, and just become a waste of time for the creature to kill. I die quickly without any possibility of revival and have a very brief window in which I can even possibly get this creature's attention.

I don't win, it's not a draw, the creature and I just coexist in the multiverse.

Then again, 16 years is a lot of rounds. Assuming my impetuous existence is enough to draw its ire, how many rounds do I last after being born even more helpless than the average baby?

[Vhaidara]

I'm going to put away my knife to try and cut this Gordian knot.

I want to be the shortest lived of all available creatures. The shortest I know is diopsid who I think lives to 16. I want to lose the ability to sense anything somehow. A continuous unconscious state would probably work, so I need awful con. Flaws might help too.

And that's it. I never become aware of this creature's existence, never attempt to harm it, and just become a waste of time for the creature to kill. I die quickly without any possibility of revival and have a very brief window in which I can even possibly get this creature's attention.

I don't win, it's not a draw, the creature and I just coexist in the multiverse.

Then again, 16 years is a lot of rounds. Assuming my impetuous existence is enough to draw its ire, how many rounds do I last after being born even more helpless than the average baby?

You'll last 5. It has been stated that it kills anything on its list (its list being this thread) in 1d4+1 rounds.

Wait, I know how to gt around it. Someone post their character in a different thread.

[Qwertystop]

You'll last 5. It has been stated that it kills anything on its list (its list being this thread) in 1d4+1 rounds.

Wait, I know how to gt around it. Someone post their character in a different thread.

Hm. Does it follow hyperlinks? What about references to URLs that are not hyperlinks (put the thread name and number here but don't put the full URL)?

If it does, has it killed all the characters from people's sigs? For example, some people link to their games, and I have a quote in my sig at the moment from the OOC thread of a current Pathfinder game, which has links both to the IC thread and the mythweavers sheets of all the characters. Are they dead?
Can it open spoilerboxes?

[OldTrees1]

Hm. Does it follow hyperlinks? What about references to URLs that are not hyperlinks (put the thread name and number here but don't put the full URL)?

If it does, has it killed all the characters from people's sigs? For example, some people link to their games, and I have a quote in my sig at the moment from the OOC thread of a current Pathfinder game, which has links both to the IC thread and the mythweavers sheets of all the characters. Are they dead?
Can it open spoilerboxes?

Yes, it killed Priya (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280365) when it was linked in a challenge post

However the list is not "characters that appear in this thread", it is more like "characters in this challenge".

[Sith_Happens]

Hypothesis: It kills you if you target it? So don't target it? And don't bring its attention to you... hm... Wait a sec, let me think...

As for trying to figure out what it is, I smell third-party. Specifically Immortals' Handbook, as Abrogate is the only way I've ever heard of to strip any and all abilities from a target without regard to their nature or source.


Your assumption that Orcus can defeat this thing is laughable. Though I guess Orcus appearing in Sigil would at least get the Lady's attention.

I'm pretty sure the idea is to use the Black Hole Pig that was achieved in the Pig Bond thread (i.e.- have such a high carrying capacity that the pig collapses into a black hole).


Hm. Does it follow hyperlinks? What about references to URLs that are not hyperlinks (put the thread name and number here but don't put the full URL)?

If it does, has it killed all the characters from people's sigs? For example, some people link to their games, and I have a quote in my sig at the moment from the OOC thread of a current Pathfinder game, which has links both to the IC thread and the mythweavers sheets of all the characters. Are they dead?
Can it open spoilerboxes?

*casts Magic Circle against Meta*

[Inevitability]

You could also gate in a half-celestial Genius Loci of infinite size and weight. That'd cause a black hole too.

Or chicken infested and create infinite chickens.

[Immabozo]

Your assumption that Orcus can defeat this thing is laughable. Though I guess Orcus appearing in Sigil would at least get the Lady's attention.

your assumption pains me.


I'm pretty sure the idea is to use the Black Hole Pig that was achieved in the Pig Bond thread (i.e.- have such a high carrying capacity that the pig collapses into a black hole).

QFT. I dont think it would survive a black hole!

[Heliomance]

Nice list.
It does not care about your intentions. You are simply next on the list.

Actually no. OP has clarified that my kings and commoners speculating about the creature have survived.

[Sith_Happens]

Or chicken infested and create infinite chickens.

Problem is the creature's in Sigil, so any plan involving massive collateral damage is a no-go.

[Urpriest]

your assumption pains me.



QFT. I dont think it would survive a black hole!

Ah, that does make more sense. Still, a Sphere of Annihilation has more potential here than a Black Hole does, a Black Hole is merely going to exert vast amounts of pressure (bludgeoning damage) and keep it from escaping, but doesn't have any particularly supernatural ability to annihilate something.

[Inevitability]

Hm... Plan C, just in case the other plan doesn't work. This involves a 20th-level gray elf wizard with 25 Intelligence (18 base, +2 racial, +5 ability score increases).

Round 1: Chandle of Invocation for an Efreeti.
Round 2: Have one Wish cast upon yourself for a +5 bonus to intelligence.
Round 3: Have the Efreeti PS you to the creature's location.
Round 4: Will a Sphere of Annihilation out of your Spell Component Pouch.
I know what everyone's thinking. However, look at this:


A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

And at this:


Material Component: An artifact, usually one of good perverted to this corrupt use.

A Sphere of Annihilation is an artifact. It also has no specific cost, fits in a pouch, and is not a divine focus. Therefore, it must be in your spell component pouch.

Round 5: Will the SoA towards the creature. Win.

[Immabozo]

Problem is the creature's in Sigil, so any plan involving massive collateral damage is a no-go.

A black hole will create collateral damage, but I dont think anyone could do anything about it.


Ah, that does make more sense. Still, a Sphere of Annihilation has more potential here than a Black Hole does, a Black Hole is merely going to exert vast amounts of pressure (bludgeoning damage) and keep it from escaping, but doesn't have any particularly supernatural ability to annihilate something.

Are you kidding?!?! A black hole is everything a SoA wishes it could be. Everything within several light years is sucked into the hole and utterly and completely destroyed. There is no bludgeoning damage, maybe some, but then there is ripped apart by massive gravity damage, and untyped damage and just utter destruction.

I would say if anything has a supernatural ability to destroy, it is a black hole.

[OldTrees1]

A black hole will create collateral damage, but I dont think anyone could do anything about it.



Are you kidding?!?! A black hole is everything a SoA wishes it could be. Everything within several light years is sucked into the hole and utterly and completely destroyed. There is no bludgeoning damage, maybe some, but then there is ripped apart by massive gravity damage, and untyped damage and just utter destruction.

I would say if anything has a supernatural ability to destroy, it is a black hole.

Black Holes obey real world physics, they cannot destroy. SoA can destroy. If the creature happens to be immune to death by damage (easy to accomplish since the challengers have been using it) then it will be safe inside a black hole.

[Immabozo]

Black Holes obey real world physics, they cannot destroy. SoA can destroy. If the creature happens to be immune to death by damage (easy to accomplish since the challengers have been using it) then it will be safe inside a black hole.

No, Black hole is just die. That is not damage, it is just die. Having gravity force you to exist in the same space as a super massive, and/or super dense material is not damage, it is just die. You cannot exist in the same location as something else.

[Inevitability]

No, Black hole is just die. That is not damage, it is just die. Having gravity force you to exist in the same space as a super massive, and/or super dense material is not damage, it is just die. You cannot exist in the same location as something else.

Unless you're incorporeal *trollfaces*.

[Squark]

To be fair, the chicken infested singularity... well, I'm not a theoretical physicist, but assuming gravity is propagated at C (and given the Higgs field does involve particles, I think theory suggests it should) it results in an ever expanding black hole that eventually holds everything not moving away from it at C within its event horizon.

Provided you pull like a googolplex squared chickens out, anyway.

Granted, what happens then is anyone's guess.

[rockdeworld]

Catching up, catching up...

Chronos's wizard (post 60): (ability loss)/(damage) occurs the round before casting Shapechange.

Heliomance's Chronos's Wizard's sister: Same result.

Kazyan's Wizard/Loremaster: I'm not up on Elder Evil stats, but don't they have an ability preventing people from knowing about them? Assuming not, (ability loss)/(damage) the round before Wishaport.

Jormengand's walker: the walk takes awhile, so your character takes (ability loss)/(damage) enroute.

Heliomance's Dvati pair: They bicker and then (ability loss)/(damage) *simultaneously.

Dire_Stirge: Your wizard becomes hostile and tries to kill the druid, then (if he survives) *5 rounds later the druid takes (ability loss)/(damage).

Lonely Tylenol's Frenzied Berserker: Infinitely high Knowledge checks don't tell you anything about this creature. Same result as Dire Stirge.

Kazyan's Dweomerkeeper (rounds 1 & 2): (ability loss)/(damage) the round before casting Wish.

Bad Wolf: I don't know enough about the Lady of Pain to point to information about her either.

*Edit for clarity

[Urpriest]

No, Black hole is just die. That is not damage, it is just die. Having gravity force you to exist in the same space as a super massive, and/or super dense material is not damage, it is just die. You cannot exist in the same location as something else.

You can, actually, that's how black holes work in the first place. (Broadly speaking. Depending on how you're completing gravity at high energies you either become part of a ball of string states twisted around the compact dimensions or your fermions collide until you are only composed of bosons. Either way, you are changed into a state that can occupy the same location as something else.)

This is the thing: if "being subjected to so much pressure that you lose fermi degeneracy" is a "no save, just die" effect, then so is being subjected to so much pressure that you overcome the coulomb barrier and become a neutron star, or being subjected to so much pressure that you undergo fusion, or being subjected to so much pressure that your body can no longer support itself, or being subjected to so much pressure that your head collapses. The latter, you may recognize, is the effect of being hit on the head with a club.

Basically, if we want to entertain a system in which "immune to damage" is a real thing, and doesn't just mean "immune to damage unless your enemy has sufficiently high Str", then we have to accept that you can't engender a "no save just die" through mundane means.

[Inevitability]

Dire_Stirge: Your wizard becomes hostile and tries to kill the druid, then (if he survives) the druid takes (ability loss)/(damage).

Okay... This is about plan B, right? How about plan C (the one involving pulling a Sphere of Annihilation out of thin air)?

Rework of plan B (should've used a candle from the start):

Round 1: Use a Candle of Invocation to summon an Efreeti.
Round 2: Have the aforementioned Efreeti send you to a place exactly 5 feet from the creature's location. Ready an action to Planar Bubble.
Round 3: FEELZ MAH PLANAR BUBBLE!
Round 4: ???
Round 5: Profit!

And, in case you missed it, plan C:


Hm... Plan C, just in case the other plan doesn't work. This involves a 20th-level gray elf wizard with 25 Intelligence (18 base, +2 racial, +5 ability score increases).

Round 1: Chandle of Invocation for an Efreeti.
Round 2: Have one Wish cast upon yourself for a +5 bonus to intelligence.
Round 3: Have the Efreeti Wish you to the creature's location.
Round 4: Will a Sphere of Annihilation out of your Spell Component Pouch.
I know what everyone's thinking. However, look at this:


A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

And at this:


Material Component: An artifact, usually one of good perverted to this corrupt use.

A Sphere of Annihilation is an artifact. It also has no specific cost, fits in a pouch, and is not a divine focus. Therefore, it must be in your spell component pouch.

Round 5: Will the SoA towards the creature. Win.

[Squark]

Chicken Singularity does run into a couple of problems, at least with regards to the challenge. It requires access to Dragon Magazine, which I'm not sure RockdeWorld is allowing, and even if you bypass that with something like the quarterstaff singularity mentioned earlier, there's still the question of whether black holes actually exist in D&D (Similar to create object shenanigans involving elements that weren't known in Medieval periods or antimatter).

[Chronos]

First of all, a black hole doesn't just "suck in everything within several light years". It has the same gravitational field as anything else of the same mass. A black hole with the mass of a star has the same gravity as a star. A black hole with the mass of a pig has the same gravity as a pig. The only difference between a black hole and any other object is that you can get much closer to a black hole before colliding with it.

That said, though, if you do cross over the event horizon of a black hole, death is as inevitable as next Tuesday. There is a singularity in your future, and anything you do within space to try to avoid it will only hasten the arrival of that future. Unless you have some means of avoiding reaching the future (which, admittedly, is possible with extremely high-powered magic, such as Teleport Through Time), you will cease to exist in the Universe.

Loss of Fermi degeneracy pressure is something that happens in the usual course of events during black hole formation, but it is neither necessary for black hole formation, nor the full extent of what a black hole does.

[Urpriest]

First of all, a black hole doesn't just "suck in everything within several light years". It has the same gravitational field as anything else of the same mass. A black hole with the mass of a star has the same gravity as a star. A black hole with the mass of a pig has the same gravity as a pig. The only difference between a black hole and any other object is that you can get much closer to a black hole before colliding with it.

That said, though, if you do cross over the event horizon of a black hole, death is as inevitable as next Tuesday. There is a singularity in your future, and anything you do within space to try to avoid it will only hasten the arrival of that future. Unless you have some means of avoiding reaching the future (which, admittedly, is possible with extremely high-powered magic, such as Teleport Through Time), you will cease to exist in the Universe.

Loss of Fermi degeneracy pressure is something that happens in the usual course of events during black hole formation, but it is neither necessary for black hole formation, nor the full extent of what a black hole does.

The main point is, nothing about "being in a singularity" implies death. I agree that the creature shouldn't be able to escape (though hilariously, Freedom of Movement might be enough to solve that problem), but that doesn't entail death.

[Chronos]

It might not directly imply death, but it does imply a lack of existing in the Universe, which (especially in a universe where being able to bring someone back from death doesn't even count as "legendary") is a far more extreme condition. Plus, if there's anything which can kill you, you're likely to encounter it before you get to that point.

[1pwny]

Fishing Attempt 1:
I have a Deck of Many Things, draw the Visier, and use its Solve Any Single Problem to solve the problem of my impending death by the creature. Or, if that doesn't work, then I use it to solve the single problem of the creature's character sheet.

Fishing Attempt 2:
I draw The Fates to avoid my impending death. I then use the remaining time I have to observe the creature in great detail.

[Urpriest]

Fishing Attempt 1:
I have a Deck of Many Things, draw the Visier, and use its Solve Any Single Problem to solve the problem of my impending death by the creature. Or, if that doesn't work, then I use it to solve the single problem of the creature's character sheet.

I assume you're getting the Deck out of your spell component pouch? Just wanted to clarify.

[1pwny]

I assume you're getting the Deck out of your spell component pouch? Just wanted to clarify.

I've obviously been holding it in my hands the entire time. Obviously. :smallwink:

BTW, I've always wondered: Is the "herd" in your sig a mispelling of "heard", or was it intentional?

[Brookshw]

A black hole will create collateral damage, but I dont think anyone could do anything about it.



Er, the Lady probably can since she can rewrite reality wholesale (see Die Vecna Die) and is at least on par in terms of power as an overgod, those buggers who can actually create crystal sphere's including the black holes (or maybe not, I'm not well up on my spelljammer as of late). The bigger problem is she'd probably be pissed you stepped on her razorvine garden and then you'd have an actual unkillable creature after you rather than just an unknown and amazingly lethal creature.

[Urpriest]

I've obviously been holding it in my hands the entire time. Obviously. :smallwink:

BTW, I've always wondered: Is the "herd" in your sig a mispelling of "heard", or was it intentional?

You can't have an artifact with normal WBL, unless you're using the "every artifact is in my spell component pouch because some idiot wrote Apocalypse from the Sky trick".

As for the sig, yo dawg I herd you like explanations... (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/xzibit-yo-dawg)

[Immabozo]

Unless you're incorporeal *trollfaces*.

Incorporeal still exists on the ethereal plane (I think?) and two creatures cannot occupy the same spot on the ethereal plane? Maybe?


To be fair, the chicken infested singularity... well, I'm not a theoretical physicist, but assuming gravity is propagated at C (and given the Higgs field does involve particles, I think theory suggests it should) it results in an ever expanding black hole that eventually holds everything not moving away from it at C within its event horizon.

Provided you pull like a googolplex squared chickens out, anyway.

Granted, what happens then is anyone's guess.

I am talking about the Pig Bonded black hole shenanigans. I dont know how to make a black hole you of Chicken infested. Although you have NI chickens, they are not betting any denser.


there's still the question of whether black holes actually exist in D&D (Similar to create object shenanigans involving elements that weren't known in Medieval periods or antimatter).

They do. In the DMG, it says that the Prime Material is the most earth like. Earth orbits a star which orbits a super massive black hole (at the center of the Milky Way), and there is no RAW to the contrary.

Also, it is scientifically hypothesized that at the center of every galaxy is a supermassive black hole.


First of all, a black hole doesn't just "suck in everything within several light years". It has the same gravitational field as anything else of the same mass. A black hole with the mass of a star has the same gravity as a star. A black hole with the mass of a pig has the same gravity as a pig. The only difference between a black hole and any other object is that you can get much closer to a black hole before colliding with it.

False. The black hole pig has much more mass. It is very, very dense. Perhaps not on the level of the sun, or a sun, but the pig weighs something like 20^73 pounds. That is a LOT more than a normal pig.

[Urpriest]

Incorporeal still exists on the ethereal plane (I think?) and two creatures cannot occupy the same spot on the ethereal plane? Maybe?



I am talking about the Pig Bonded black hole shenanigans. I dont know how to make a black hole you of Chicken infested. Although you have NI chickens, they are not betting any denser.



They do. In the DMG, it says that the Prime Material is the most earth like. Earth orbits a star which orbits a super massive black hole (at the center of the Milky Way), and there is no RAW to the contrary.

Also, it is scientifically hypothesized that at the center of every galaxy is a supermassive black hole.



False. The black hole pig has much more mass. It is very, very dense. Perhaps not on the level of the sun, or a sun, but the pig weighs something like 20^73 pounds. That is a LOT more than a normal pig.

Since I didn't read the original thread on the subject, what was the argument for the pig's density? The feat tells you the mass of the pig, but presumably its volume scales accordingly, since generally pigs don't get dramatically denser as they get larger.

[Vhaidara]

Since I didn't read the original thread on the subject, what was the argument for the pig's density? The feat tells you the mass of the pig, but presumably its volume scales accordingly, since generally pigs don't get dramatically denser as they get larger.

Because the size of the pig never goes up. So as your strength increases, the pig gets heavier, but never increases in size. It's comboed with Cancer Mage + Festering Anger.

[Urpriest]

Because the size of the pig never goes up. So as your strength increases, the pig gets heavier, but never increases in size. It's comboed with Cancer Mage + Festering Anger.

The size of the pig never goes up because it explicitly says that somewhere, or just because it doesn't say it increases? Because generally when you increase something's mass its size also increases, especially if its a pig.

[Vhaidara]

The size of the pig never goes up because it explicitly says that somewhere, or just because it doesn't say it increases? Because generally when you increase something's mass its size also increases, especially if its a pig.

Because size categories exist, and since they never go up a size category, they're confined to a 5x5x5 space. You do end up with a 5ft cube of pig.

[Urpriest]

Because size categories exist, and since they never go up a size category, they're confined to a 5x5x5 space. You do end up with a 5ft cube of pig.

There's nothing in the flaw that says they're Medium to begin with, though. They're not even a creature, since there aren't any pig stats out there, they're a living object like a plant.

[Immabozo]

There's nothing in the flaw that says they're Medium to begin with, though. They're not even a creature, since there aren't any pig stats out there, they're a living object like a plant.

By RAW, yes, a pig is never defined. But whatever it is, the pig's weight scales with your NI strength to always equal your max load. No size categories are ever gained (or lost. Maybe this is how piggy banks are born?)

So with your NI strength, according to the weight allowance table, your carrying capacity doubles every 10 str points, or every 5 days with festering anger. In one year, your carrying capacity is 20^73 pounds and that is exactly what the pig weighs. The argument being, since it never gains size categories, it stays relatively the same, or similar size, but since it is getting heavier, it must increase in density.

IIRC, that is the point (20^73 pounds) when the pig's mass becomes so dense in collapses into a black hole.

[OldTrees1]

By RAW, yes, a pig is never defined. But whatever it is, the pig's weight scales with your NI strength to always equal your max load. No size categories are ever gained (or lost. Maybe this is how piggy banks are born?)

So with your NI strength, according to the weight allowance table, your carrying capacity doubles every 10 str points, or every 5 days with festering anger. In one year, your carrying capacity is 20^73 pounds and that is exactly what the pig weighs. The argument being, since it never gains size categories, it stays relatively the same, or similar size, but since it is getting heavier, it must increase in density.

IIRC, that is the point (20^73 pounds) when the pig's mass becomes so dense in collapses into a black hole.

False, the pig's volume is not defined at any point nor is it defined to be constant. Assuming its volume to be constant is no more valid than assuming its density is constant. Neither might be constant.

[Urpriest]

False, the pig's volume is not defined at any point nor is it defined to be constant. Assuming its volume to be constant is no more valid than assuming its density is constant. Neither might be constant.

One can reason further, actually. Since the pig can take on any mass in principle, and the only category for which this is within the typical weight range is Colossal, one can infer that the designers intended the pig to be Colossal by default. *Nods sagely*

[Immabozo]

One can reason further, actually. Since the pig can take on any mass in principle, and the only category for which this is within the typical weight range is Colossal, one can infer that the designers intended the pig to be Colossal by default. *Nods sagely*

Colossal is still a defined size and it only changes math. No wrenches thrown in the idea.

But back on topic, I think a black hole kills it.

[Heliomance]

I'm with the group saying "immune to damage" protects against black holes. A black hole simply does NI damage, which is a fairly trivial task in D&D.

[Immabozo]

I'm with the group saying "immune to damage" protects against black holes. A black hole simply does NI damage, which is a fairly trivial task in D&D.

I say infinite, but that is a matter of ... I am far too tired to think of the word. But I, actually, do agree and it is a fantastic example if infinite damage

[animewatcha]

I am seeing all kinds of different things being attempted. Up to and including cheesy stuff.

So Plan A: I Iron Heart Surge it.

Plan B: Since we are allowed to gain class levels and it takes time ( unspecificied amount ) to gain these class levels. During class building time, infinite CL build-up prior to and then casting gate to gate it another of 'this thing' from another multiverse ( or dimension or what not ) and get it to deal with this thing since it falls with the 1 standard action per caster level or whatever language of the gate spell.

[Anthrowhale]

The character:

An illithid/illithid savant 5 eats the brain of 20th level archivist for spell casting as a 20th level archivist and the brain of protean for 'alter form'. It has 7 feats (5 from 13 HD, plus 2 from illithid savant).

1. ??
3. Twin Spell
6. Easy[Twin]
9. Martial Study[some L1 Iron Heart]
12. Martial Study[Iron Heart Surge]
IS2: ??
IS4: ??

Every day it casts foresight. It acquire Arcane Fusion by creating a divine scroll of Arcane Fusion with the (paid) contribution of Arcane Fusion from Sorcerer. It acquires Celerity in the same manner.

Upon learning of impending doom from foresight, it immediately casts Easy Twin Arcane Fusion[Celerity] from a 7th level slot as full-round action which grants 2 standard actions.
The first standard action casts Favor of the Martyr for immunity to the drawback of celerity.
The other standard action casts Easy Twin Arcane Fusion[Celerity] as a standard action which grants 2 standard actions.
The first standard action is a wish to transport to the thing as a standard action.
The other standard action casts Easy Twin Arcane Fusion[Celerity] as a standard action which grants 2 standard actions.
As a free action, the Illithid savant mimics the thing's form, acquiring it's impending doom ability,
The first standard action then uses the acquired ability on the creature.
The other standard action is Iron Heart Surge to end the condition currently causing impending doom on itself.
As a free action, use alter form to acquire a Colossus Antimagic Field (which is an Ex ability). As per the rules compendium, all incorporeal creatures (not just undead) disappear yet have a local time proceed within an antimagic field.
Wait 5 rounds, proceed with life.

The desired effect: Creature has no actions remaining, Doom ability ends on us, Creature is hit with it's own doom ability.

[Squark]

Some fishing of my own.

-A random Outlander spots the creature, approaches it, gets bored, and leaves.
-Another outlander spots the mechanical monstrosity and decides to sketch it
-A third outlander spots it, shrugs, says, "It's the outlands," turns away, and never thinks of it again.

[Chronos]

An artificer takes Craft Contingent Spell, and either Leadership or some other means of gaining three assistants (I'm not sure if constructs would work; I'd have to double-check all of the relevant spells). He crafts four Contingent Spells of Delay Death, four of Share Pain, one each of Glory of the Martyr, Masochism, and Beastland Ferocity. The triggers for each of these can just be him saying a particular word. In addition, he has a nonmagical thinaun dagger, and three more contingent spells: A Shatter, triggered to go off targeting the object in his right hand if he's been dead for more than ten rounds, a Revenance, triggered to go off targeting himself if the object in his right hand is destroyed, and a Revivify, triggered to go off if he dies due to the duration of Revenance expires (these last two could be replaced by True Resurrection, but this is cheaper).

You may recognize what I'm doing here-- It's basically just the omniscificier, re-done to not be reliant on questionable things like custom items and drown healing (which forces him to be higher level, but that's OK). In addition, he has also crafted, oh, let's say a half-dozen scrolls of Wish.

Here's what I expect will happen. He grabs ahold of his dagger, triggers his omniscience spells, and jumps off a cliff. He takes infinite damage, which attracts the attention of The Entity, but also gives him full knowledge of it. 1d4+1 rounds later, if it still exists, The Entity first strips his class features (which he no longer needs, just his already-active spells, his existing items, and his skill ranks), then attempts to kill him via nigh-infinite damage, which is redundant as he's already taken infinite damage and his Delay Death is still active. The Entity then uses its just-die power, which (presumably) works, but the Soul Bind does not, as his soul is instead sucked into his dagger. Ten rounds after that, the dagger is shattered, his soul is released, and he's brought back to life via Revenance and eventually Revivify, with no level loss.

Meanwhile, once he attains his omniscience, he's going to use his scrolls of Wish to attempt to take down the creature, in whatever way seems most appropriate once he knows all about it. This can presumably be done within 1d4+1 rounds, since the wizard's Foresight advised him that the way to avoid death was to kill the thing first.

[Vhaidara]

I predict that you die 5 rounds into your crafting.

[Yanisa]

I predict that you die 5 rounds into your crafting.

I predict the assistants get hostile and ruin any crafting, then he dies.

[rockdeworld]

Kazyan's Dweomerkeeper (attempt 3 & 4): same result

MetaMyconid's Domovoi: (ability loss)/(damage) before round 1. As for rolling system: 32PB is fine. Congratz on beating v1 without Miracle.

It seems I'm going too slow to keep up with you all. I wonder if there's someone with good RAW interpretation skills and free time who doesn't want to participate in the challenge but would be willing to respond to challengers.

[OldTrees1]

Kazyan's Dweomerkeeper (attempt 3 & 4): same result

MetaMyconid's Domovoi: (ability loss)/(damage) before round 1. As for rolling system: 32PB is fine. Congratz on beating v1 without Miracle.

It seems I'm going too slow to keep up with you all. I wonder if there's someone with good RAW interpretation skills and free time who doesn't want to participate in the challenge but would be willing to respond to challengers.

If I had the character sheet, then I believe I can give accurate answers until the really crazy stuff shows up.

[Inevitability]

I hope someone takes over. I really would like to know how this character stays up to a Sphere of Annihilation.

[Jormengand]

Okay, sorry, instead of doing what I was doing, I get to the thing by using quickened fly, greater teleport to get to one of the gates into Sigil, move action into Sigil, quickened greater teleport (I can use MM reducers to make that a ninth-level spell) to the thing, full move directly above, infinite frees to bombard it with NI damage.

[Gabrosin]

I hope someone takes over. I really would like to know how this character stays up to a Sphere of Annihilation.

I am also enjoying watching this insanity, and scribbling notes in my "do not allow these things in a real game" file.

[Mystia]

-snip-

Yay, thanks! I'm really happy to know that my little thinking outside the box wasn't in vain, even if that way it'd be mutually assured destruction :smalltongue:


Mystia's Lich: Body destroyed while scattering phylacteries. When he comes back to life he's destroyed again before he can take actions. The phylacteries are not destroyed.

I see, that'd be quite a sad end for the lich, eternal death and rebirth!
But this leads me to wonder, can the creature "multitask", or would it be unable to move on in it's list, since the Lich wasn't really eliminated yet?
It probably is able to, but my last try gave me an idea...

First, a really simple attempt:
Redacted this out, nevermind it, OP!

Alright, and then a really complex one, thinking with undead again:
Arcane Loredrake Spellstitched Dragonwrought Kobold Dracolich
Sorcerer 6/Tainted Scholar 10
(ECL totals at 20 I swear)
Important feats: Craft Contingent Spell, Mother Cyst, Dragonwrought (ofc), Leadership, Quicken Spell
Contingent spells: Greater Celerity (#1 - goes off whenever he's surprised), Greater Celerity (#2 - goes off whenever Foresights warns of an impeding threat), Greater Celerity (#3 - goes off when he is teleported against his will, after reaching the destination).
Daily buffs always include Foresight and True Seeing, which last through the day (and possibly the month/year) thanks to his CL of "Yes".
His phylactery is located in his lair - a crypt beneath an Red Dragon Cemetery (Dragon Cemeteries as Draconomicon, page 16), which he inherited from his former mentor and friend, a Great Wyrm Red Dragon.

Items in possession:
- Handy Haversack
- Metamagic Rod Quicken (Greater)
- Custom item of Plane Shift, Greater
- Mirror of Opposition with 1 charge left
- Belt of Battle

Always standing somewhere nearby, is his Cohort, a 17th level Cleric of Nerull, still living and breathing.
Buffs herself daily with Delay Death (Persisted via DMM), Favor of the Martyr (same), and Divine Power (as well).
Has got Tolerancy and Diehard as feats (... yeah) and Divine Metamagic.
Has got an Contingent Revivify up (via craft feat), because the dracolich values a living servant that can easily blend into society.
Is Mind-Linked to the kobold dracolich.

Backstory
The Lich is extremely shifty, vindictive and suspicious of everyone, including his cohort. Thus, as soon as they met, he - as he does with everyone - inflicted her with a Necrotic Cyst, to ensure she'd never disobey his orders. Being an worshipper of Nerull, she even willingly accepted his "blessing".

Since he's a known sadist, a good part of his cohort's buffs are just meant to prevent an uneventful painful death. And since he's utterly paranoid, his contingencies are just to prevent his own uneventful demise at the hands of some pesky paladin of Pelor or Marut.

Certain night, just one second past midnight, he was complaining to his cohort about how despite he wearing his best clothes that day, no pesky adventurers showed up to try to slay him, and was wondering if he should go enslave the ghostly dragon that guards the cemetery again, since he's bored - when the door to his chamber creaks open.

One of his minions then reports to him with rumors about something killing high level adventurers. The prideful dracolich kobold takes offense - something killing his prey?? He snickers and shouts out loud "Hah, unless it's mighty Nerull or Pun-Pun himself, I shall take this as a challenge and defeat whatever that thing is!"

Step by Step:
As soon as his Foresight warns him of impending danger, his contingency is triggered (or he gets surprised, which also means a contingency going off), granting him two full round actions that round.
He then uses a quickened Greater Arcane Infusion to cast:
- Necrotic Domination on his fool of a cohort, then ordering him not to do anything unless told to, and always willingly fail saving throws against him.
- Magic Jar, in order to swap bodies with his cohort.(possession takes a full round action)

He then orders his enslaved cohort to prepare to cast a Miracle spell, using the exact wording he gives him, on his command.
Then, he readies an action to Dispel his own magic jar, in order to swap back to his own body, should something damage or attempt to damage his 'current body', and to do so after said damage or attempt takes place.
As soon as it happens (body stays alive, since he isn't taking any damage due to buffs), he's back at his 'own body', and the cohort as well.

<I'm unsure of what happens next, so I'm working based on assumptions, sorry>

I take it that now he is going to get stripped of class abilities and be teleported to Sigil.
I - In case this does happens, once there, another contingency goes off, and he immediately also spends all charges in his Belt of Battle. Realizing he can no longer cast spells, he panicks, quickly fetches his Mirror of Opposition from his Handy Haversack, gets it to face his foe being, and activates it.

I.a - Should the Mirror work properly and spawn a duplicate of the being, the Lich will stick around to watch the fireworks.
I.b - Should it fail, he then uses his custom item to get back to his lair and orders his cohort to Miracle the utter annihilation, destruction and obliteration of X being, located in Sigil, at Y coordinates.

II - If he gets killed before being able to teleport back, he then immediately goes back to his phylactery (thanks to dracolich's immunity) takes possession of a Red Dragon corpse, and via Mindlink orders his cohort to cast the Miracle described at I.b .

II.a - If he gets killed before seeing the location of the being (i.e. while it's still next to his cohort), he immediately takes possession of an Red Dragon corpse, and via Mindlink orders his cohort to cast the Miracle described above, but worded as the utter annihilation, destruction and obliteration of "the being that has just caused the destruction of <lich's name>'s body".
II.b - If he gets "spawn-killed" and is unable to communicate with his cohort any further, the order (given after dispelling the Magic Jar) was for the cohort to Miracle "an activated Mirror of Opposition in front of the being that caused the destruction of <lich's name>'s body, facing said being" should he get destroyed.


Aand if somehow everything fails... I, I'll need some time to think.

[Vhaidara]

Yay, thanks! I'm really happy to know that my little thinking outside the box wasn't in vain, even if that way it'd be mutually assured destruction :smalltongue:



I see, that'd be quite a sad end for the lich, eternal death and rebirth!
But this leads me to wonder, can the creature "multitask", or would it be unable to move on in it's list, since the Lich wasn't really eliminated yet?
It probably is able to, but my last try gave me an idea...

First, a really simple attempt:
Cleric of Pelor 10/Divine Oracle 10
A retired old cleric, living her golden days peacefully on a isolated monastery after a lifetime of adventuring.

Suddenly, she gets "surprised" by said being.
However, due to the Divine Oracle capstone, she "isn't really surprised", and gets a free standard action.
With her standard action, she Miracles for Pelor to deal with the being that triggered her capstone ability before it is able to harm her.

I'm pretty sure that qualifies as using Miracle, which is how Erik won.

[rockdeworld]

If I had the character sheet, then I believe I can give accurate answers until the really crazy stuff shows up.
Might be too crazy then. It seems like you're really into the guessing too. I'd ask Erik if I thought he didn't want to compete anymore (which may be the case). Either way, I will respond to everyone.

[1pwny]

Fishing Attempt 3 (please go back and see #1 and 2 btw):
Make an Ice Assassin of Boccob. The Ice Assassin instantly realizes that killing Boccob would be pointless and impossible. Tell the Ice Assassin to kill the thing that's going to kill me, because OH MY GOD ITS RIGHT THERE KILL IT KILL IT KILL IT QUICKLY! :smallwink:

By the way, remember that this is Boccob the Uncaring, so if he realizes that for whatever reason he actually cares about something (namely hating my character), he would become intrigued and try to figure out why, and probably kill the thing that made it so, because anything that could influence his opinions is obviously dangerous and needs to be put down.

[Mystia]

I'm pretty sure that qualifies as using Miracle, which is how Erik won.

*gives it proper thought*
... Ouch, you're indeed right. Thanks for pointing that out!
Sorry about that, I think I unconsciously stuck with the Miracle idea because it seems to me that the creature is invulnerable to almost anything except if it's divine/holy in some way. Either way, nevermind that then, OP (and the lich's cohort 'direct destruction miracles' too). I'm still pretty curious about the Mirror of Opposition, though!

[rockdeworld]

[Still catching up]

TheGeckoKing's Shaper of Form: For the purpose of this competition, epic magic items aren't the same as magic items, so the magic items Wish creates cap at CL 20. Also your character takes (ability loss)/(damage) the round before round 1.

Seppo87's Pun-pun: I feel like I ought to ask that Pun-Pun only use abilities that are defined in the game, but it's not like I've done that, so I won't yet. Based on the way you worded that, then, your character's ability to retroactively stop the creature fails. He takes (ability loss)/(damage) the round before getting Manipulate Form.

[ShadowFireLance]

Actually, I think I know how this thing is killing people, I used (What I think) is the ability in a game once. It may be a combo, but I think I know what it is.

1 Question I need to know;
1) Is it a monster with abilities, or a character with a build?

(And if I guess it correctly, do I get to see what it is?)

[OldTrees1]

Actually, I think I know how this thing is killing people, I used (What I think) is the ability in a game once. It may be a combo, but I think I know what it is.

1 Question I need to know;
1) Is it a monster with abilities, or a character with a build?

(And if I guess it correctly, do I get to see what it is?)

I have not seen the sheet. However I think it is a monster with abilities. See the response vs Pun Pun and the opening post's Regeneration comment.

[enderlord99]

It goes unconscious for a while. Now what?

Unconscious creatures are considered willing. Quickened PaO it into something (anything) that counts as a living creature, is my size or smaller, and is not immune to sleep. This is only likely to last one round, IIRC, but that's actually a good thing. It should still be unconscious, and therefore willing. Target it with Psionic Fusion. The Psionic Fusion should outlast the PaO, meaning the creature has all of its abilities back, as is also the same person I am. With all of those abilities, and the fact that we are already in Sigil, annoying the Lady of Pain enough to be flayed (and, therefore, insta-killed) is trivial. As per the text of Psionic Fusion, we separate, and are both dead.

That counts as a draw, right?

[arclance]

I'd have to see the shadow dragon statblock to know for sure. It wouldn't work with the Dragon Breath/Enervating Breath combo, since the Shadow Dragon's breath weapon isn't one of those listed in the spell.
They are from Monsters of Faerûn pg.43.
This is their totally balanced breath weapon.

Breath Weapon (Su): A shadow dragon’s breath weapon is a cone of billowing, smoky shadows with an energy drain effect.
Creatures within the cone gain the number of negative levels shown on the accompanying table;
the saving throw to remove the negative level is shown on the table as well.
A successful Reflex save (against the same DC) reduces the number of negative levels by half (round down).


Age Breath Weapon (DC)

Wyrmling: 1 (14)
Very young: 1 (16)
Young: 1 (18)
Juvenile: 2 (20)
Young adult: 2 (22)
Adult: 3 (24)
Mature adult: 4 (26)
Old: 5 (29)
Very old: 5 (32)
Ancient: 6 (34)
Wyrm: 7 (37)
Great wyrm: 8 (39)

[Immabozo]

So we take a cheetah, slap the Paragon, mage bred and shadow templates on it. Since this cheetah falls under the very broad generalization of any carnivore (cause even unique creatures fall into the category of "any") now we use it as a basis for a lycanthrope.

Now the tycanthrope can never, by RAW, take the templated form of his animal half.

BUT, if this is an afflicted lycanthrope, after taking a bunch of damage, is FORCED to make a control shape check to not be forced into animal form. Voluntarily fail this save, and then you are this beast.

Shadow template has this little line "Dark creatures encountered away from the Plane of Shadow have the extraplanar subtype." which insinuates the on the plane of shadow, they don't, meaning the animal retains it's original and unchanged type. So that is +10 ft movement.

Quick trait is +10 feet.

Speed of thought gives +10 feet movement while psionically focused and is eligible to be taken multiple times. 2 flaws + level 1 (lets leave room for feats to make the build viable) + 30 while psionically focused.

rapid wrath is a spear that doubles speed for those who carry it. (not wield it)

Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, item, grants 10 ft movement

So, base speed of a cheetah is 50 ft, + 10 ft from magebred + 10 from Shadow template + 10 quick trait x 3 from paragon (all the inherited templates and traits first) + 10 from Barbarian, + 10 from monk + 10 from Collar of Umbral metamorphosis + 30 from Speed of thought x 2 from Rapid Wrath x 10 from cheetah.

So the speed printed on the character sheet, is 6,000, and the run action brings us up to 24,000. We reach a whopping just barely under mach 4 at a run. A charge is 12,000 ft.

Now, I dont know how to get the devil type into the build, but I know it can be done. That allows the taking of Mark of Minauros feat and it's pre req, gaining a +2 bonus on attack roll at the end of the charge for every 10 feet moved as part of the charge

So on a 12,000 ft charge, that is a +2,402 to hit, and a +4,788 jump check.

Now, there are two tactics to use with this utterly silly build. Using Swooping Dragon strike to perma stun him (maybe?) with a DC 4,788 + str + D20 fort save or stun

or, Feral Death Blow maneuver, Jump check DC the Beast's (flatfooted) AC, and I have a str + D20 + 2,388 result, and if I deal damage, target is subjected to (with level 1 cancer mage + festering anger shenanigans) a fort save DC NI or instantly slain (HP instantly equal -10).

[OldTrees1]

So we take a cheetah, slap the Paragon, mage bred and shadow templates on it. Since this cheetah falls under the very broad generalization of any carnivore (cause even unique creatures fall into the category of "any") now we use it as a basis for a lycanthrope.

Now the tycanthrope can never, by RAW, take the templated form of his animal half.

...


You die from NI damage from an unseen source without gaining initiative.

[Immabozo]

You die from NI damage from an unseen source without gaining initiative.

why? How? None of that is anything but info about the rules behind the character

[OldTrees1]

why? How? None of that is anything but info about the rules behind the character

I was telling you the results you would get with that valid challenger.

Without any special advanced notice, you will die 5 turns after it starts on your character. Since your character has no way of knowing it is in danger, it dies on turn 5 without ever rolling initiative. The first couple of pages are full of similar cases before we figured that part out.

[Hecuba]

Time for a fishing expedition. Let's find out if this thing goes after bystanders and (if not) what kind of information gathering it uses.

Fishing attempt 1

Buster the Spymaster: Bard 5/Spymaster 7/Ur-Priest 8
Buster is in Deep Cover. Any Divination magic reveals nothing about Bob: such effects can only reveal information about his cover identity (Fiona the Florist, who is merely going about her daily business).

Fishing attempt 2

Babs the Zhentarim Spy: Bard 5/Zhentarim Spy 5/Ur-Priest 10
Babs is in Deep Cover. Any Scrying Spells or Mind Reading of less than Deific strength reveals nothing about Babs: such effects can only reveal information about her cover identity (Fiona the Florist, who is merely going about her daily business).

If either survives long enough, they make Bardic knowledge checks.
Each has int 34, 5 ranks in Know history for the +2 bonus, and 5 levels in bard for a modifier of 19.

The checks for each character are on, in order:

Notable Local people (hoping the mystery thing qualifies)
Legendary Items (in hopes it or something important it has qualifies)
Details about the location (in hopes it reveals information we don't know about the location)


Check results (Rolls here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18097816&postcount=237))
Buster's rolls

24
39
35


Babs' rolls

34
26
31

[Qwertystop]

We've been assuming max rolls, actually, since otherwise you'd end up with continued resubmissions until you happened to roll max on everything that matters. It's why, after it was figured out, everyone gets five rounds instead of rolling 1d4+1.

[Immabozo]

I was telling you the results you would get with that valid challenger.

Without any special advanced notice, you will die 5 turns after it starts on your character. Since your character has no way of knowing it is in danger, it dies on turn 5 without ever rolling initiative. The first couple of pages are full of similar cases before we figured that part out.

I am banking on far superior movement speed to count for something

[OldTrees1]

I am banking on far superior movement speed to count for something

It doesn't. My first try never even reached the plane the creature was on before it died. Distance is no obstacle to the creature.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

They are from Monsters of Faerûn pg.43.
This is their totally balanced breath weapon.



Age Breath Weapon (DC)

Wyrmling: 1 (14)
Very young: 1 (16)
Young: 1 (18)
Juvenile: 2 (20)
Young adult: 2 (22)
Adult: 3 (24)
Mature adult: 4 (26)
Old: 5 (29)
Very old: 5 (32)
Ancient: 6 (34)
Wyrm: 7 (37)
Great wyrm: 8 (39)

The critical question, then, is can it use its breath weapon as frequently as it cares to, or is it a "once every 1d4 rounds" situation? If it is, it does me no good, because even with all the standard actions one could ever want, I'm still not taking more than one round. If it is not, and can be used whenever I have a standard action free, then the question is does it have a range in excess of 20'? If so, then it'd just be a matter of manifesting Greater Metamorphosis (or Shapechange).

As per rockdeworld's request, here is the revised form of the Jersey encounter:

Jersey manifests Foresight for the day, which warns him of incoming doom in 1d4+1 rounds. His thralls, if not already within 20', move to within 20'. Round 1 (after manifesting Foresight), Jersey manifests Affinity Field, covering himself and his thralls. If his thralls are able to act without interference this round, one manifests an augmented Synchronicity, and the Mad Minute is established. If not, Jersey manifests a quickened augmented Synchronicity, and the Mad Minute is established, but Jersey has no more swift actions this round (but still has access to the Greater Reality Benders if he really needs a swift action only spell or power). Using his standard, he manifests Fission, thrall 1 manifests Bestow Power, thrall 2 manifests an augmented Synchronicity, Fission manifests Bestow Power, etc. etc. Jersey then uses his next several standard actions (still in round 1 after Foresight) to establish the rest of the trick and any defenses he feels he might want (and can manifest as a standard action), including Greater Metamorphosis (or Shapechange, whichever is preferable) to become a Shadow Dragon (if the range on the Shadow Dragon's breath weapon is sufficient to attack the target beyond the Affinity Field). If so, he then Reality Revisions (or Wishes or Miracles) the team to the target, but keeping the target out of the Affinity Field, and breath weapons the thing to death. If the Shadow Dragon doesn't work for whatever reason, he uses Enervation (provided it can successfully hit the target, even if it is only on a natural twenty) until the thing dies.

Actually, though, given that I'm able to do arbitrarily large amounts of damage in a round, does the creature's regeneration have time to work? Or is it otherwise immune to damage (elemental, force, etc.)?

So, what happens?

[OldTrees1]

Actually, though, given that I'm able to do arbitrarily large amounts of damage in a round, does the creature's regeneration have time to work? Or is it otherwise immune to damage (elemental, force, etc.)?

So, what happens?

If the damage you deal is non lethal damage(via its regeneration), then its regeneration will save it. This is due to all creatures being able to handle infinite non lethal damage without dying.

Question: Did we discover when/what turn all allies, cohorts, pets, minions, slaves, ... etc. turn on the challenger?

[ShadowFireLance]

Very, very simple way to do this. Very easy as well. I feel bad for doing this though.
The very simple explanation is the use of two variant rules; limited divine ranks, and the death of a god variant rules. The build itself doesn't exactly matter, as so long as you can kill any of the statted deities.
You have five rounds. Spend four of the rounds murdering four of the more powerful deities. Congratulations, you are now immune to exactly everything but direct DM fiat. Immune to anything that could instagib you, and immune to any HP damage. You're also a deity, and you therefore create a portfolio of yourself, and gain 2 weeks knowledge of yourself, so you know what's going to happen 2 weeks before you, and 2 weeks after, and you now know exactly what said annoying thing is. You then proceed to use the Time travel spell in Dragonlance, travel back in time, and then kill it before it can think of killing you.

Do I win yet?

[rockdeworld]

Kalaska'Agathas's Jersey with Foresight: *reads* Well, I was imprecise in my last post - your first clue would be that 5 rounds before death, your StP thralls turn hostile and start attacking you (with SoDs or blasting or whatever they would use to fight). Can you survive the two of them doing their best to kill you? If so, you could cast Foresight during those rounds to get some foreknowledge of what's coming.

Heliomance's people: For clarity, the first Archivist was soul bound (you were the first to try to bring him back unless I'm mistaken). But it doesn't matter because by RAW Soul Bind doesn't prevent Ghosts (at least not until they equate "spectral" with "soul" in the books - or make any rules at all about rising as a ghost). In any case, ECL 25 is probably too high. Assuming instead we have something like an Archivist 15 who becomes a ghost, the same thing happens again - it loses its abilities and takes NI damage (being a ghost doesn't stop the damage).

For the Psion and Diplomancer: before their buddies' death they become hostile toward them and now they're glad they're gone.

Seppo87: Yes the grounds are completely unequal. Having said that, the playground killed the first version of this creature that I made to be possibly-impossible to kill (without even knowing its stats), and I'm starting to see how it can be done again. It's enough to make me want to edit out every weakness that I see come up (I think some of the entries would get close if not win outright with an early warning system), but I'll wait to change anything until this one gets taken out too. I think it's a testament to people's curiosity and fortitude that this thread is now 7 pages long.

OldTrees1: To explain, Teleport Through Time (as I'm reading it) targets the character casting it first and anything/one he wants to take with him in addition, so you can't just send something by itself. On top of that, the material components are untouched ground, so you specifically can't send an item back to yourself.

I can't answer the first side question out of character (but Erik Vale kinda already has), but for the second: yes it would be a grapple check since the Bag of Devouring requires one.

Immabozo: You can try, I'm not too picky. I'd label you a cheater though =P

No brains's Diopsid: Pick an age - 5 rounds after that.

Dire Stirge's Plan C: no warning (ability loss)/(damage)

Re: Black Holes: Can they be statted up in D&D (using existing rules)? If yes I'll use those, if no it's speculation. Also, "earth-like" implies the planet is like Earth, but not that the planet's solar system is like ours (although I'm not an astronomy major, maybe it does imply some things about the solar system)

Dire Stirge's Plan B redux: same as C

Somebody27else's Fishing: no warning (ability loss)/(damage) before drawing from the deck.


amazingly lethal
Thank you.

Animewatcha's Plans: Plan A: no warning (ability loss)/(damage), so your character doesn't know to use IHS

Plan B: You'd need knowledge of it to target it, which isn't free. Unless your character does that to everyone, in which case see an ealier response about the infinite number of people in the multiverse vs. your lifespan (and especially your lifespan when adventurers come after you for doing that).

Anthrowhale's Illithid: Foresight only lasts 200 minutes so you'd be taken by surprise when you don't have it active.

Squark's Fishing: All 3 see a large creature with a steampunk body. The second is unable to sketch it. All 3 die shortly thereafter from (ability loss)/(damage).

Chronos's artificer: I see you using Foresight, but not casting it anywhere. Is it another crafted contingent spell? Anyway: Kaledrath and Yanisa's predictions come true.

Jormengand's Crafter: Ok. The world burns, the creature lives (unaffected), the Lady kills your character (I guess - anyone with knowledge of Sigil feel free to confirm/deny).

Mystia's Dracolich: (For the record, I count MAD as a win for you since the challenge is just to kill the creature.)
Forsight triggers. Magic Jar, etc. work. No teleportation (every challenger with teleportation initiated the teleportation on their own). For the next 5 rounds, nothing happens. Then the lich loses all abilities (racial immunities included) and takes NI untyped damage. If that kills him/destroys his body, he's soul bound. Otherwise he just dies (again) and is soul bound.
So Miracle II.b. is cast, and that's all your characters know. The creature wasn't killed though. Sorry, I forgot the cleric is a cohort even if he's no longer an ally. Your character becomes hostile toward him, and he takes (ability loss)/(damage) at the same time as the dracolich. Unless I'm mistaken, no Miracles get cast.

Somebody27else's fishing 3: The Ice Assassin becomes hostile to your characer and kills him.

ShadowFireLance: It's a creature, beyond that is a secret =) (And no.)

And now I need to go to sleep -_-

[ShadowFireLance]

So, this thing, however it's killing people, can kill someone with effectively overdeity status? As in, Lady of pain style stats? It can survive being literally removed from existence without ever have existed? Because I can very well show exactly how to do that.

[Immabozo]

Immabozo: You can try, I'm not too picky. I'd label you a cheater though =P

I am a cheater, a dirty cheater. And I love it! Please tell me the outcome!!!

[1pwny]

Somebody27else's fishing 3: The Ice Assassin becomes hostile to your character and kills him.

Wait, wait wait, lets think about this again. Boccob is the Uncaring. The Ice Assassin is a perfect copy of him. Basically, IMO, as soon as Boccob realized that he cared about something enough to want to kill it, he would immediately realize something was tampering with his emotions. Therefore, some other, outside entity has the ability to influence the Uncaring's uncaring-ness. Boccob would immediately try to destroy the outside influence (presumably your creature), due his divine-emotion-tampering ability, which is too dangerous to be allowed to live.

Plus, Boccob has Int 50. He can hold off on killing someone he doesn't like if he smells something suspicious, which he obviously does.

[Heliomance]

Also, isn't an ice assassin magically compelled to follow is creator's orders? Out shouldn't be possible to make it disobey, it's a fundamental part of the spell.

[arclance]

The critical question, then, is can it use its breath weapon as frequently as it cares to, or is it a "once every 1d4 rounds" situation? If it is, it does me no good, because even with all the standard actions one could ever want, I'm still not taking more than one round. If it is not, and can be used whenever I have a standard action free, then the question is does it have a range in excess of 20'? If so, then it'd just be a matter of manifesting Greater Metamorphosis (or Shapechange).
It follows the basic rules for all dragon breath weapons.
A Great Wyrm has a 70ft. cone every 1d4 rounds.

[Chronos]

I'm puzzled by what starts the five-round clock running. This thing is letting us reach level 20, but it's not letting us conduct nonspecific preparations?

[Drackstin]

a level 1 commoner farmer, goes about his life, and doesn't believe it exists. there for its no real to him and is dead in his mind.

[Lanson]

I'm puzzled by what starts the five-round clock running. This thing is letting us reach level 20, but it's not letting us conduct nonspecific preparations?

It's been getting worse as the thread expands too, such as "5 rounds after you pick an age." Basically applying DM fiat the start of the campaign. Still wondering why it's targeting people before they have knowledge if it though, at the beginning you at least had to gain knowledge of it's existence. I'm still trying to get more info before trying a build that has a snowballs chance against this thing.

[Qwertystop]

I'm puzzled by what starts the five-round clock running. This thing is letting us reach level 20, but it's not letting us conduct nonspecific preparations?

Hm. yeah, I would agree - it's really inconsitent what counts as the start of the fight.

[OldTrees1]

Plan A (continuing Dire Stirge)

Elan Archivist 7 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Archivist 11
DMM Persisted Foresight.
Wish teleport to the creature.
Make a Control Check on the Sphere of Annihilation inside my spell component pouch (While it is 15ft away from me and within 10ft of the creature).
If successful I move the Sphere into the creature's space.



Plan B

Elan Archivist 7 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Archivist 11
DMM Persisted Foresight.
Wish teleport to the creature.
Withdraw the Deck of Many Things from spell component pouch.
Draw the Vizier and The Fates
Enact the Vizier's plan.


Plan C

I have been protecting three patches of untouched earth since 1st level. I check them once a year for messages without walking on them or otherwise despoiling them.
I have stored my xp every level in a thought bottle.
Elan Archivist 7 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Archivist 11
DMM Persisted Foresight.
Wish teleport to the creature.
Withdraw the Deck of Many Things from spell component pouch.
Draw the Vizier
Teleport Thru Time to the first patch in the past (aiming for when I was 4th level). Leave a message with what Foresight and the Vizier told me. Along with my thought bottle. This package is left in the planned place that is slightly off of the patch.
Teleport Thru Time to the second patch 1 day after the Foresight Warning.
Past self finds the message and thought bottle within a year and can use the third patch if needed to enact the Vizier's plan.

[Mystia]

Mystia's Dracolich: (For the record, I count MAD as a win for you since the challenge is just to kill the creature.)
Forsight triggers. Magic Jar, etc. work. No teleportation (every challenger with teleportation initiated the teleportation on their own). For the next 5 rounds, nothing happens. Then the lich loses all abilities (racial immunities included) and takes NI untyped damage. If that kills him/destroys his body, he's soul bound. Otherwise he just dies (again) and is soul bound.
So Miracle II.b. is cast, and that's all your characters know. The creature wasn't killed though. Sorry, I forgot the cleric is a cohort even if he's no longer an ally. Your character becomes hostile toward him, and he takes (ability loss)/(damage) at the same time as the dracolich. Unless I'm mistaken, no Miracles get cast.

(Oh, I see! Well, thank you quite much, then!! Please forgive me if I'm still doing attempts, it's mostly because I'm pretty curious about the creature's immunities and want to find out how they work, even more so than effectively killing it, this time.)
Hmm, so the lich would turn hostile towards the cohort as well, that does break that strategy.
Ok, I hope I'm not bothering you too much, but just to test the things immunities one last time (last, I promise):
If, for the sake of saving time you allow me to simply tweak on top of the Kobold Dracolich, removing his cohort from existence:

-As Foresight warns of impending danger and the contingency goes off, he also spends the charges on his belt of battle, granting him a total of 3 Full Round Actions that first round.
-He then casts a Wish to teleport to the location of the creature that triggered his Foresight. (-1 standard action, 2 full round actions, 1 move and 1 swift action remain)
-He casts a quickened Mordenkainen's Disjunction at the thing, and takes some distance (-1 swift and -1 move action, 2 Full Round actions remain).
-He then casts a quickened empowered Orb of Sound at the thing, then Gates in a arbitrarily high number of Phanes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane), in a way that the creature is surrounded from all sides, including above/below if possible since they're Incorporeal, controlling them to attack the thing. (1 Full round action remain)
-He watches their round of attacks to see if the creature is affected/damaged by their auras and attacks, and if it can even be touched by them.
-If not, he then dismisses the Phanes/orders them away.
-He casts Gate again to call in an army (flock?) of Solars and controls them to destroy the being to the best of their abilities, as quickly as possible, fighting as a team and changing their spells/attacks until they found an effective one.
-In case he notices their attacks are being innefective (since it's an NI number of solars, each thing in their arsenal should have gotten tried out at least once in a single round), he casts a very dangerous Wish to try to suppress the thing's immunities and abilities for 1 round, and commands the Solars to go all-out again.

Since the Lich has no connection to the creatures whatsoever before being targeted by the being, he shouldn't turn hostile to them. Since they don't get a saying in the deal, they just obey his orders (in fact, I think that both the Lich and those summons would be hostile enough to each other already :smallconfused:).
The process up to the Solar's summoning should take 2 rounds if I'm not mistaken, someone please correct me in case I am.

[rockdeworld]

Hecuba's fishing: Both Buster and Babs take (ability loss)/(damage) regardless of Deep Cover.

OldTrees1: Mystia's Dracolich (and your Jersey) discovered cohorts/etc turn on the challenger at the same time that Foresight warns of impending danger.

ShadowFireLance's deity-slayer: I haven't seen those variant rules before, so I don't know how they work. How do your immunities work (eg. "immunity to damage" vs regeneration)?

Immabozo: If I understand correctly, your build involves Festering Anger. See the response to the last build to use that.

Somebody27else: I'm using the hostile rules from the diplomacy skill, so the Ice Assassin attacks your character. I don't know Boccob's stats though - does he have an ability that prevents his attitude shifting to hostile?

Heliomance: Yes, so it's a matter of can Boccob kill you before you realize he's hostile towards you and/or command him not to.

Chronos: About the 5 round clock: That is partially correct. Like Lonely Tylenol said, it mucks about with time. If as Lanson said it seems to be getting worse that's because of how people are building their characters. There's probably a pattern emerging based on how people die, aside from the "no warning" ones.

Drackstin's commoner: (ability loss)/(damage)

OldTrees1: All plans: (ability loss)/(damage) before getting the ability to cast DMM Foresight.


Please forgive me if I'm still doing attempts
:smallsmile: Please continue your attempts! It's not like I win if no one can kill this creature.

Dracolich v2: The dracolich wishaports and disjoins the creature (no visible change). Orb hits. He has NI CL? Ok, the Phanes surround and attack the creature, but fail to touch him. He dismisses them and they leave. Ditto the Solars, who try everything from attacks to spells to wishing it into the sun (a PF trick, not sure if it works in 3.5). Awhile back Erik posted v1's stats and those still apply It has regeneration bypassed only by spells that cause death.
It's a construct.
It passes all saves.
All attempts to touch it fail.
It's large.
Divinations don't work on it or anything in it's surroundings.
It has 10000HD.
I think NI orbs of whatever eventually deal enough damage to render it unconscious. Your dangerous wish results in spontaneous combustion :smalltongue: one of the creature's abilities being suppressed, but doesn't change the outcome of the Solars' work. Someone said unconscious => willing, but I don't see that on d20srd rules for unconscious, so it still gets and succeeds saves. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Then the dracolich takes (ability loss)/(damage) when 5 rounds are up.
(ability loss)/(damage) occur before the character got NI CL (if that was before his birth, let me know).

[Lanson]

The only answer is that it's retroactively killing characters before they become a threat, possibly using time manipulation and some kind if parallel to the save game trick, which potentially mskes this creature undefeatable by virtue of "the creature goes back in time and kills you before you have knowledge of it's existence the round before you kill it." This is further proved by characters dying arbitrarily before they have key class features. This isn't meant to be sore sounding, just an observation, I want to see (possibly contribute) this thing go down again.

Despite the large hurdles in the way, this should be fun.

[Drackstin]

warforged artificer 15-juggerknaught 5. make a wand of wishes, wish to teleport to it, and wish the incarnate construct template on it, then wish to Transport traveler it to the farplane.

[enderlord99]

Did my "Psionic Fusion + piss of the Lady" technique work?

[1pwny]

I don't care if the Boccob Ice Assassin kills my character. I'm trying to point out that maybe he would kill the creature after killing me, thus letting me go for a mutual kill/win?

[TheGeckoKing]

Wait a minute, I've got the ultimate fishing trick! Again, a Warforged Wizard 5/Shaper of Form 1, but instead of a Zodar, I choose to become the creature in question (It IS a construct). I then try to kill the offending creature (not myself) with my pilfered powers.

[Hamste]

The idea of the willing thing comes from this:

Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.


So, no you don't get to bypass saves for everything but anything that is willing targets only (Though there might be a supplementary rule or interpretation I miss). You can turn it into a bodak (using bodak birth) if it is willing and seeing you ignore all the old abilities of the characters you bypass any immunity it might have (though it has a minute casting time so you have to keep it unconscious during that time). You could also teleport it as well if you have a specific place you want it to go. Both require touching it however.

[Hecuba]

Hecuba's fishing: Both Buster and Babs take (ability loss)/(damage) regardless of Deep Cover

So we know one of the following is true:

It targets indiscriminately
It has Deific-level divination or mind reading capacity
It uses non-divination, non-mindreading based tools to gather information on who to target.



Does anyone know of a way to facilitate a NI hide check for HiPS?
If so, we should probably check that and Venca-blooded as well (Max & Plucky). It seems likely, however, that we won't be able to provide a character it won't attempt to target.

[ezkajii]

The idea of the willing thing comes from this:

Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.


So, no you don't get to bypass saves for everything but anything that is willing targets only (Though there might be a supplementary rule or interpretation I miss). You can turn it into a bodak (using bodak birth) if it is willing and seeing you ignore all the old abilities of the characters you bypass any immunity it might have (though it has a minute casting time so you have to keep it unconscious during that time). You could also teleport it as well if you have a specific place you want it to go. Both require touching it however.

Reach spell or Ocular spell would get around that easily enough. Now while it's unconscious I would recommend a quickened Spider Shapes SC to strip it of any Ex abilities not granted by class levels, followed by antimagic field (or whatever might be more appropriate to strip it of any Su and Sp abilities). After that any NI damage trick should be sufficient, I would think.

There's also a snag with bodak birth which is the focus requirement, which is going to be hard to make before you SuperDietm

[rweird]

Cloistered Cleric 1/Wizard 9/Dweomorkeeper 10, Contingent Persisted Timeless Body (Su wish crafted) when targeted by an ability that would kill me, +twinned celerity for Contingent Wish for CL 10^100 scroll of Ice Assassin of the creature that targeted me with this ability when timeless body fires and Contingent Wish that the creature that targets me with said ability gets a mental image of the Ice Assassin and the message "shouldn't have done that bro, now he's gonna kill you" triggered by using the scroll of ice assassin. I use the scroll of ice assassin of that creature, if the assassin rolls better on its 1d4+1 kill time than the original, the original would die from the kill ability thing, and it would lose all its abilities (regeneration, kill, etc). Have foresight active beforehand (or did the crafting then).

Would the ice assassin hate me too? Yes. Is it still bound to follow all my commands (don't kill me)? Yes. Could it get around that? Probably, but if it kills me, it still would want to kill the original.

[Heliomance]

Someone said unconscious => willing, but I don't see that on d20srd rules for unconscious, so it still gets and succeeds saves. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Then the dracolich takes (ability loss)/(damage) when 5 rounds are up.

It's from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm. Scroll down to Aiming A Spell. The relevant passage:


Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

As mentioned, though, it doesn't actually say anything about saves.

[rockdeworld]

Drackstin's Warforged: wands cap at spell level 4, so this doesn't work.

Enderlord99: Assuming you're talking about the conversation you had with Erik, Kazyan's challenger got killed by v2 awhile back. If you're talking about Mystia's dracolich, (1) it doesn't have psionic powers that I know of, (2) unconscious does not willing unless I'm missing some rules.

Somebody27else: The creature lives, though your character died before he could see how.

TheGeckoKing: After reading the Dysfunctional rules posts and the text of Modify Self, I'm convinced the ability doesn't work that way. Renaissance doesn't give you abilities that it doesn't explicitly say it doesn't give you (or put another way, it only gives you abilities that it says it gives you, which are none). In any case, your character has no warning system that I can see, so (ability loss)/(damage)

Hamste & Heliomance: Aha, thanks. I had to edit my reponse Mystia because of that. This might make the pattern I mentioned obvious.

Rweird's Dweomerkeeper: As I mentioned to another challenger, Wish'd magic items cap at CL 20 (CL 21+ are epic magic items =/= magic items). Given that CL doesn't matter too much for Ice Assassin, that doesn't really affect your build. Your character suddenly has Timeless Body, then the Ice Assassin spell fails. 5 rounds later (ability loss)/(damage).

[Hecuba]

For the ability loss - I caught that it covers class abilities. Do we have a definitive answer on if it strips racial abilities?

[Ohiohi]

Let's "scry" a little...
The PC is the standard wizard with foresight, with a bard cohort with foresight on(from a scroll).

First
The wizard teleports himself and Bard(via wish or whatever) to the creature's location. He then teleports back and Bard casts Modify Memory on a commoner, implanting in his memory his 1-round experience with the creature. What happens to the commoner?

Second
The wizard teleports himself without the bard (via wish or whatever) to the creature's location. He then teleports back and Bard casts Modify Memory on the wizard. Now the wizard has no memory of the creature, but the bard saw the creature in wizard's memory. What happens to them?

Third

This bard has knowledge skills maxed, and the wizard has a contingent sending on death to a friendly wizard (Sending says something like "teleport to cordinates XYZ and take the piece of paper you'll see at my dead feet")
The wizard teleports himself and Bard(via wish or whatever) to the creature's location. Bard makes all knowledge checks he can, and on his last round he writes all he discovered about the creature on a paper. When the 2nd Wizard arrives, what he reads on the paper?

Edit: sorry about my english :smallredface:

[Hamste]

Hmmm, how would this work out?.

Attempt #1 A spell caster with foresight and mindblank casts an ice assassin of an Aleax of attempt #2. He then orders it to be willing to the next spell or power cast on it and to then never ever do an action ever again before killing himself or permanently trapping himself or whatever they want to do now to permanently remove them self from the situation.

Attempt #2 A psion with foresight and mindblank (from a scroll, possibly another source if this turns out to be a weak link.) uses his readied action to True Mind Switch with the ice assassin. This triggers his contingency power and true mind switches him with the nearest human creature...which is a baby that just came from its mother. The psion then kills or traps itself to permanently remove them self from the situation.

Attempt #3 The now immortal baby grows up to be a spell caster and eventually kills the creature.

If needed Attempt #1 and Attempt #2 will have more attempts in front of them to make them ice assassins in the same style as this one and so on all the way back to first generation this is possible. Zero time elapsed between birth and immortality (only another immediate action could get past it). If it matters none of them except the last attempt wants to kill the creature.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

It follows the basic rules for all dragon breath weapons.
A Great Wyrm has a 70ft. cone every 1d4 rounds.

In which case it would work, possibly, if I dispelled and remanifested Greater Metamorphosis (or whichever polymorph type spell/power is most efficient, honestly) every other cycle, since that should reset the 1d4 rounds counter. Now I only have to find a way to keep my Thralls from being made hostile. On that note...


Kalaska'Agathas's Jersey with Foresight: *reads* Well, I was imprecise in my last post - your first clue would be that 5 rounds before death, your StP thralls turn hostile and start attacking you (with SoDs or blasting or whatever they would use to fight). Can you survive the two of them doing their best to kill you? If so, you could cast Foresight during those rounds to get some foreknowledge of what's coming.

When exactly do they turn hostile and start attacking Jersey? The moment after Jersey achieves Thrallherd 10 and his second Thrall appears? If they had Mindblank up, would that change whether or not they are made hostile? If Jersey gets even one round of them not being hostile, he can establish the Mad Minute; if he were to do so, would they still be made hostile (that is, during the action loop's long round)? Am I understanding correctly that his Fission is not made hostile?

Alternatively, if Jersey were on a different plane from his thralls, manifested Schism, then manifested Foresight, would he be warned of his impending doom in 1d4+1 rounds (or is it five? I know it's a subtle difference but I do think that information could be important)? If not, would swapping the order (Foresight before Schism) work? If either works, Jersey manifests Affinity Field and his schism manifests a twinned augmented Synchronicity. On his first Synchronicity standard, he manifests Fission, on his second, he manifests an augmented Synchronicity. His Fission then uses his Synchronicity standard action to manifest an augmented Synchronicity. This lets Jersey manifest whatever standard action buffs/other spells/powers he cares to because he's established the Mad Minute. Does his Fission become hostile? If not, if he were to Teleport/Wish transport himself (and his Fission) to his thralls, would they be hostile when he got there? Would that change if they had Mind Blank up? If they're hostile in either case, then let us assume they do not have Mind Blank active. Jersey and his Fission Teleport to the thralls but keep the thralls out of the Affinity Field - Jersey then (since the loop is established and he should have plenty of power points left before he has to worry about recharging) attempts to use Bend Reality (or Reality Revision (or any of the greater reality benders), if Bend Reality is not sufficient) to get the thralls back to being Helpful (or whatever degree of Attitude/loyalty they had before they were made hostile, as long as this is sufficient to get them to help Jersey and not attack him). Does that work? If so, he then brings them into the Affinity Field, the proper Sieging Psionic Dreadnought (with recharge) is established, and we're back to the question of can the target interrupt the action loop? Too, we'd need to answer whether or not Enervation hits (even if only on a natural twenty)? If it does not interrupt the action loop but Enervation does not hit, then Jersey will Greater Metamorphosis/Shapechange/whatever spell or power is most efficient for gaining the form and Su: abilities of a Shadow Dragon, and on his next standard action, uses its breath weapon. If the target does not have evasion, then it takes some negative levels. Jersey then uses his next standard action to dispell (or dismiss) the Greater Metamorphosis/Shapechange/whatever. On his next standard, he repeats the process, turning back into a Shadow Dragon. The cycle then continues until the thing is dead.

So, what happens?

[OldTrees1]

OldTrees1: All plans: (ability loss)/(damage) before getting the ability to cast DMM Foresight.


I am confused. What is different between a plain Incantrix and a plain DMM Persist? Both get to start at ECL 20 right?

[TheGeckoKing]

TheGeckoKing: After reading the Dysfunctional rules posts and the text of Modify Self, I'm convinced the ability doesn't work that way. Renaissance doesn't give you abilities that it doesn't explicitly say it doesn't give you (or put another way, it only gives you abilities that it says it gives you, which are none). In any case, your character has no warning system that I can see, so (ability loss)/(damage)

Meh, I was only fishing for the statblock. Alright, scratch Shaper of Form, let's go try and abuse stupid Kobolds and stupid Dragon Magazine instead. Take an Old Aged Kobold Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Legacy Champion 9, with the Dragonwrought, Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw, Quicken Spell and Multispell x 2 feats (Thanks Draconomicon!) and a Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken Spell. Quickened Wish adjacent to the creature (ignoring the local conditions of Sigil), Quickened Spellwarped Death by Thorns as "creatures that succeed at their Fortitude saving throws are still incapacitated for 1d4 rounds in horrible agony, taking 1d6 points of damage per round.", and then with the creature incapacitated and assuming I only get the minimum 1 round, I pull out my Rod of Entropy (Dragon 294, p79) as a free action to make a 5ftx5ft unmovable Sphere of Annihilation as a standard action in the creature's square, annihilating it. From deciding to kill the creature to said creature being unable to do anything consists of entirely free actions (i.e. no time at all) and then once it's unable to do anything for a round, I punch a hole in reality and throw it through.

[Heliomance]

Quickened spells are swift actions, not free. Only one a round.

[Hamste]

Quickened spells are swift actions, not free. Only one a round.

Dragonwought cheese to get the epic feat multispell from the looks of it

[Immabozo]

Immabozo: If I understand correctly, your build involves Festering Anger. See the response to the last build to use that.

It doesn't have to have festering anger. It is only icing on the cake. Can it make a DC 4,788 Fort save or stun every round? And then Does a +2,402 to-hit, hit and a 2D6 + 10D6 + str + power attack, kill it, eventually, since it is (maybe?) perma stunned?

Or can a DC 40 (ish, probably optimization can get to 50 or 60, but I haven't tried) fort save or die, kill it? Non magic. It's a TOB maneuver.

[Hecuba]

Elmyra
Human Wizard 10/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8
Important stat: Wis 3, Int 34, will save 5

Feats:

Troll-Blooded - Regeneration
Craft Wondrous Item
Craft Magic Arms & Armor
Academic Priest

Flaw:

Weak Will

Trait:

Passionate

Items:

+6 int item (included above)
1 limb for a Half-Clay Golem

Important prep:

Foresight is up
One limb was deliberately severed less than 3 days ago (and thus has not grown back from troll-blooded yet).
Elmyra is under the effects of Mind Fog (further lowering the will save to -5 with penalty)


First Action:
Attach the limb as a spell-completion item.

Assuming she doesn't roll a 20 on the will save, Elmyra is likely a Neutral Evil NPC now (as she just took a template with LA: --- )
That's fine though: we're at level 20 and I'm not in the mood for Epic levels.


More importantly however, the following changes have happened:
Type changes to Construct. For convenience, here's a list of immunities from the type:

All mind-affecting effects
Effects calling for Fort Saves unless they affect items (no Con)
Poison
Sleep effects
Paralysis
Stunning
Disease
Death effects
Necromancy effects
Critical hits
Nonlethal damage
Ability damage
Ability drain
Fatigue
Exhaustion
Energy drain
Death from Massive Damage


Elmyra also no longer counts as a living creature.

Additionally, she is now immune to any Spell or SLA subject to SR and heals rather than taking damage from acid.

Finally, by virtue of having regeneration and immunity to non-lethal damage Elmyra is immune to all damage not of the fire type (or the acid type, but that heals her now).

Elmyra ends her turn. Lets say she spends the next 4 readying an action to conterspell herself: she's got wis 3 and just took a permanent -6 int penalty after all-- being confused seems reasonable.
(And I mostly want to see what effects of the Super-Death get past the immunities, so I'm fine skipping ahead to that part.)

[ShadowFireLance]

I shall explain further;

There is a rule in Deities and demigods, that is a variant, that there's only a set amount of DvR(Divine Rank) in the universe. When a god dies, the DvR is transferred to the killer, subsuming the dead deity in question.
My plan involves killing one lower level deity, DvR 6-8, in one round, in the next, murdering one of 14-16 DvR, and then one of 20+ DvR. At this point in time, three rounds have passed, and according to the chart, I am an overdeity due in my rank. The overdeity in any setting is essentially the DM, as he's such a powerful being, even Greater deities bow. (Look at Io, Ao, and possibly The Lady of Pain, but we're not quite sure, she's more a function of the universe.) And as such, I can make the rules how I see fit.

[Mystia]

-snip-
Ah ok then, thanks :smallbiggrin:! I just didn't want to be too much of a bother with my constant (and complicated) retries.
Well, first let me point out that the Wish resulting in spontaneous combustion got me laughing off the charts :smalltongue:.
But oh, I think that I must have overlooked Erik posting those facts somehow, thanks for pointing it out! Yay, it makes me happy to know that it has managed to go that far, at least before the edit! Yes, as Hamste and Hellomance have kindly pointed out for you, being unconscious does make you count as being willing.

Unfortunately, no, he doesn't get it before his birth, not unless you consider he being a Kobold a valid reason for that. That's one of the consequences of him being an undead Tainted Scholar with a load of time, spells and minions to play around with.
Hmm, this leaves me kinda out of ideas for now... no luck even if he had normal CL, pulled in a single Phane, and got it to pull in a Past Time Duplicate of the being (gets no SR or saving throw whatsoever because it isn't even actually aimed at the creature, but since it has a load of HDs, the duplicate gets "demoted" to only having 25 HD), and ordering it to use his insta-slaying in the original?
That aside, I'm dry! I'll return to lurking until I have anything new. So far this is being a great fun, though, keep it up!

[rweird]

Rweird's Dweomerkeeper: As I mentioned to another challenger, Wish'd magic items cap at CL 20 (CL 21+ are epic magic items =/= magic items). Given that CL doesn't matter too much for Ice Assassin, that doesn't really affect your build. Your character suddenly has Timeless Body, then the Ice Assassin spell fails. 5 rounds later (ability loss)/(damage).

Timeless Body: "Your body ignores all harmful (and helpful) effects." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm) "Effect" isn't defined in D&D if I recall correctly, although its real-world meaning is "a change resulting from a cause." It also says it makes me invulnerable to all attacks and powers to reiterate that. I'd argue that the killing me ability is a cause (as it could trigger the contingency), and thusly I'd ignore it, and continue casting Ice Assassin for 8 hours, then the assassin would have a chance to kill the first one if it rolls higher on its 1d4+1.

Still, I could have a contingent wish for a piece of the creature (material component, no listed price, assumed to be negligible, therefore worth less than 25,000 GP, because the spell component pouch thing seems cheap), and uncanny forethought Ice Assassin it in round 1 using a Crown of White Ravens + Martial Study for White Raven Tactics, and use that before my celerities, and have the wish to inform the creature be once I make an ice assassin of it. Then if my assassin rolls a 2 on kill time, while the other rolls a 5 (with infinite tries, this can happen), the original loses all abilities and takes NI damage.

[Anthrowhale]

Anthrowhale's Illithid: Foresight only lasts 200 minutes so you'd be taken by surprise when you don't have it active.


The beast has some form of divination? Or got lucky? No matter, the slightly-more-paranoid spawn-sibling then goes.

An illithid/illithid savant 5 eats the brain of 20th level archivist for spell casting as a 20th level sorcerer and the brain of protean for 'alter form'. It has 9 feats (5 from 13 HD, plus 2 from illithid savant, plus 2 from flaws). It finds and/or creates a earth node of level 6 which it lives in by default.

1. Node Spell [Earth node]
(Flaw 1) Metanode Spell
(Flaw 2) Twin Spell
3. Easy Twin
6. Arcane Thesis[Celerity]
9. Martial Study[some L1 Iron Heart]
12. Martial Study[Iron Heart Surge]
IS2: Extend Spell
IS4: Persistent Spell

Every day it casts Metanode Persistent Foresight from a 9th level slot. It always has Keeper Immunities (from Fiend Folio) and Tarrasque Regeneration up as 2 of 4 Ex abilities allowed by Alter Form. This provides immunity to all forms of damage.

Upon learning of impending doom from foresight, it immediately casts Metanode Easy Twin Arcane Fusion[Celerity] from a 5th level slot as full-round action which grants 2 standard actions.
The first standard action casts Limited Wish[Favor of the Martyr] for immunity to the drawback of celerity.
The other standard action casts Arcane Spellsurge to reduce the casting time of metamagic spells to a standard action.
With an immediate action, cast Celerity to gain a standard action.
With a standard action cast Metanode Easy Twin Arcane Fusion[Metanode Easy Twin Celerity] to gain 4 standard actions.
The first standard action is a Wish to transport to the thing as a standard action.
As a free action, the Illithid savant mimics the thing's form, acquiring it's impending doom ability,
The second standard action then uses the acquired ability on the creature.
The third standard action is Iron Heart Surge to end the condition currently causing impending doom on itself.
As a free action, use alter form to acquire a Colossus Antimagic Field (which is an Ex ability). As per the rules compendium, all incorporeal creatures (not just undead) disappear yet have a local time proceed within an antimagic field.
For the fourth standard action, munch on some brain-jerky.
Wait 5 rounds, proceed with life.

The desired effect: Creature has no actions remaining, Doom ability ends on us, Creature is hit with it's own doom ability.

[Mr Adventurer]

You can't use non-TO knowledge checks on it because it has 10000HD.

This also ballparks it as what, a CR 2500 creature?

[Chronos]

OK, two more tries:

First, we have a human druid 20, who spends his entire life wildshaped into dire tortoise form, so he can never be surprised. One day, he decides he'd like to take on the ultimate challenge, and sets to thinking about what that ultimate challenge might be. At what point does he get zapped?

Second, we have a first-level human druid. He's the son of dirt farmers, and one day decides to venture out from his farm to the neighbors' farm, to help the neighbor kill off some rats that are infesting his cellar. Having done that, he proceeds to help some other recently-ex-farmers fight off a handful of (non-optimized) kobold bandits, clear out a few decrepit tombs, and so on, until he eventually reaches 20th level.

From previous trials, it looks like what happens is that the first druid is unsurprised at finding himself under attack, but nonetheless finds his defenses inadequate and dies five rounds after he started pondering the ultimate challenge, while the second druid will be completely unaware of his impending doom until he suddenly drops dead five rounds into the rat-cellar.

But if this is what happens, then I contend that the Mysterious Entity is no longer a creature acting according to stats, because the first druid is the second druid. The only difference between the two is the point in their careers at which I chose to start describing them, and this is an out-of-game consideration, which shouldn't be at all relevant to a creature within the game.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

OK, two more tries:

First, we have a human druid 20, who spends his entire life wildshaped into dire tortoise form, so he can never be surprised. One day, he decides he'd like to take on the ultimate challenge, and sets to thinking about what that ultimate challenge might be. At what point does he get zapped?

Second, we have a first-level human druid. He's the son of dirt farmers, and one day decides to venture out from his farm to the neighbors' farm, to help the neighbor kill off some rats that are infesting his cellar. Having done that, he proceeds to help some other recently-ex-farmers fight off a handful of (non-optimized) kobold bandits, clear out a few decrepit tombs, and so on, until he eventually reaches 20th level.

From previous trials, it looks like what happens is that the first druid is unsurprised at finding himself under attack, but nonetheless finds his defenses inadequate and dies five rounds after he started pondering the ultimate challenge, while the second druid will be completely unaware of his impending doom until he suddenly drops dead five rounds into the rat-cellar.

But if this is what happens, then I contend that the Mysterious Entity is no longer a creature acting according to stats, because the first druid is the second druid. The only difference between the two is the point in their careers at which I chose to start describing them, and this is an out-of-game consideration, which shouldn't be at all relevant to a creature within the game.

Echoing the above, would it be possible to get a more detailed explanation of when the creature starts acting on the challengers? Perhaps giving us an idea of what the challengers are doing the minute before they're hit with ability loss/NI damage?

[Jane_Doe]

It seems to me that it kills things able to achieve arbitrarily high caster levels (based on his edit to Mystia's attempt), which also leads to believe the same is true of arbitrarily high anything, given that it does the same with festering anger. We also know that it kills anything using infinite action loops, and anything that learns of its existence. It also pre-emptively kills anything that elucidates a desire to harm it, even if the character in question isn't aware that this mysterious being falls into the set that they are describing.

Treating the activation conditions as though it were a golem following a strict program, I would be inclined to believe that it possesses clauses something along the lines of, "If a creature reaches 100 <stat> and continues to grow to 110 <stat>, teleport to their location and cast <superkill ability>", "If a creature takes more than 20 actions in a round, teleport to their location and cast <superkill ability>", "If a creature learns of my existence, teleport to their location and cast <superkill ability>", and "If a creature voices a desire to harm me, teleport to their location and cast <superkill ability>". Perhaps not those lines of thought precisely in how to clearly identify infinite growth or actions to a golem, but the intent; if something seems to be growing into infinity, track and kill it. Kind of feels like a modified Inevitable to me in that respect, but I don't really know much about them.

That said, I'm clearly missing a trigger condition here, as I'm not certain why Chronos's crafting triggered the attack... But the pattern to the rest of the attempts suggests to me that one exists. It's not "When character is first introduced", however, as Mystia's first Dracolich included a backstory, which didn't see it killed within five rounds of its beginning.





That said, I could be completely mistaken in how I perceive it to be operating; I just mean to suggest that it doesn't seem to me like it's just "Go back in time and kill your character!"-ing :) .

[Sith_Happens]

Food for thought, the NI Knowledge checks will probably work to identify the creature once you can actually see it, as opposed to knowing about it in advance which is what's been tried so far and hasn't worked (presumably due to the creature having just become Vecna-Blooded and therefore no second-hand information about it exists).

[Gemini476]

Food for thought, the NI Knowledge checks will probably work to identify the creature once you can actually see it, as opposed to knowing about it in advance which is what's been tried so far and hasn't worked (presumably due to the creature having just become Vecna-Blooded and therefore no second-hand information about it exists).

So what, do the Omniscifier trick by jumping off a rooftop in Sigil, and immediately after pulling your head out of a bucket spotting the critter at far distance because of the +Infinity spot modifier and making a +Infinity Knowledge check to figure out absolutely everything about it? (Which is then, naturally, followed by somehow quickly informing the Lady or one of her Dabus' of the creature and either dying due to shadow-flaying or NI damage but that's alright because now the Lady is aware of the critter.)

Except modified somehow so that it doesn't use any crafting. Hmmm.

How about this:
A suicide cult spontaneously starts existing in Sigil because of some misplaced belief in their existence. They consist of four Psion 3, five Cleric 7, five Commoner 1, and one Wizard 6/Wyrm Wizard 2 cultmaster. The cultmaster has the Diehard feat and has learned Glory of the Martyr through his Spell Research class feature. They are all standing on a rooftop at least 10ft off the ground. (Consider them a PC party, if you will. "If it has stats, they will kill it" is not meant for single PCs, after all.)

They are, coincidentally, also situated precisely opposite of the creature that the challenge focuses on, so that if you could somehow see through the smog and had a sufficiently high Spot check you could just look up and see the creature. In precisely twelve seconds, the Lady of Pain is going to float around the corner.

The cult believe that since Knowledge is Power, getting infinite knowledge will be enough to catapult themselves into divinity. They do not know that the Lady is about to witness their misguided attempt at ascendance.

It's a perfect storm. Somewhere in the beastlands, a butterfly feels extremely proud of itself for no comprehensible reason.

At the beginning of the first round, the Clerics ceremoniously cast Delay Death on four of the commoners as well as the cultmaster. The Psions follow up by manifesting Share Pain, linking the cultmaster's damage to the four commoners. The cultmaster casts Glory of the Martyr on himself.

The second round is much shorter - the cultmaster casts Masochism on himself, sealing the ritual, and the fifth and final Commoner pushes the cultmaster off the edge of the roof.

As the cultmaster falls with his back to the ground, he can't but help to wonder if this was such a great idea after all. That doesn't matter, however, since the instant he touches the ground and takes four damage, the perpetual damage engine starts. Two of that damage is rerouted to the commoners through Share Pain, and one damage is rerouted from each commoner to the cultmaster through Glory of the Martyr. So he takes four damage again, and the engine roars at full strength in an instant and gives the cultmaster and the commoners literally infinite damage.

The commoners fall unconscious, but the cultmaster's Diehard feat keeps him awake. He feels as if he has achieved transcendence - he is instantly aware of everything in existence through knowledge checks, and revels in it. However, he also experiences two big problems. The first is the clockwork creature which he now can see through the smog (and has correctly identified down to its routes through infinite knowledge checks) and the second is the Lady of Pain lazily floating around the corner.

Deciding to cut his losses while he can since honestly this entire idea was a bit dumb when you think of it anyway (what were they even supposed to do when Delay Death ran out?), he blabbers the entire story as concisely as he can to the Lady and warns her of the Creature.

The third round is even shorter than the second, and is mostly spent with the Lady flaying the cultmaster alive as the remaining cultists watch in horror from above.

Roughly seven minutes later, the four commoners die horribly from infinite damage as Delay Death runs out.

Chances are that I'm forgetting something, though. Not to mention that the Lady might just maze the creature or banish it from Sigil rather than killing it.

[Segev]

Deliberately weaponizing the Lady of Pain is usually a bad idea. Not because it hurts you (though it does), but because it often doesn't work.

Informing Dabus of problems, on the other hand, has as much of the benefits of trying to weaponize the Lady as you can expect, and far fewer of the drawbacks.

[The_Ditto]

I will enter the creature from OP into this challenge ... what happens? :smallbiggrin:

[JustIgnoreMe]

I will enter the creature from OP into this challenge ... what happens? :smallbiggrin:

This kills the thread.

[Sith_Happens]

This kills the thread.

Variation: I enter the current version of the Stuffy Doll.

[Immabozo]

This kills the thread.

You sir, win the award for the best response this week! lol

[rockdeworld]

Everyone: Anthrowhale guessed (correctly) that someone with Foresight could get lucky and have it up when getting targetted. I've been doing a poor job at accounting for luck and infinite attempts, so rather than go back and change previous responses (and maybe ask you guys to write 100 more to figure this out), I'll give you this: the statistics would point toward the creature targeting your character in the present if your character fails to kill it before dying, but targeting your character in the past if your character would've killed it before dying (or seemed like it would, eg. with NI skill mods). This effect occurs regardless of the creature's condition (alive/dead/destroyed/etc).


For the ability loss - I caught that it covers class abilities. Do we have a definitive answer on if it strips racial abilities?
It does, but not racial traits (because they're not abilities).

Ohiohi's Wizard:
First: The bard becomes hostile toward the wizard and starts attacking him (rather than casting Modify Memory on a commoner). Then the wizard takes (ability loss)/(damage).
Second: The bard is hostile toward the wizard and, sure, let's say his most lethal spell is Modify Memory. He isn't targetted by the creature. The wizard takes (ability loss)/(damage).
Third: Same as first.

Hamste's characters: One of the two is targetted, and the other starts attacking in lieu of the plan you outlined.


When exactly do they turn hostile and start attacking Jersey? The moment after Jersey achieves Thrallherd 10 and his second Thrall appears? If they had Mindblank up, would that change whether or not they are made hostile? If Jersey gets even one round of them not being hostile, he can establish the Mad Minute; if he were to do so, would they still be made hostile (that is, during the action loop's long round)? Am I understanding correctly that his Fission is not made hostile?
Yes, right after achieving Thrallherd 10. Mindblank doesn't negate it. When would you cast Fission? After/while being attacked by your thralls?

On another plane: Yes, your two minds would become hostile toward each other (in a strange application of that ability that I hadn't thought of before), so you'd have that as a warning. It would probably make taking other actions impossible though, like the way a confused character who is attacked has to attack their attacker. After becoming hostile, the schism stops being targetted but the character does not and the schism is still hostile towards the character.


What is difference between a plain Incantrix and a plain DMM Persist? Both get to start at ECL 20 right?
I'm confused by the first question. Yes, both get to start at ECL 20.

TheGeckoKing's Kobold: The character still doesn't have a warning system that I can see, so (ability loss)/(damage). Assuming you plan to put Foresight or something up, your character takes (ability loss)/(damage) in the past just before getting 9th-level spells.

Immabozo: Sorry, I think I'm confused about which build we're talking about. The Lycanthrope build doesn't have any way to get a warning of his impending doom that I'm aware of, so it takes (ability loss)/(damage) before it can put your plan in action.

Hecuba's Elmyra: I'm not sure how you're becoming a construct - normal regeneration doesn't do that AFAIK. In any case, at the end of the 5th round, she loses the regeneration ability from (ability loss) and takes (damage).

ShadowFireLance's Godkiller: Aha. What build would you use to slay a God then? That might make a difference (for example, The Wish and the Word aren't RAW-legal).

Mystia's weaker wizard: Assuming he doesn't have the ability to summon NI Solars, he would find out that the Phane can't hit the creature or stop the wizard from taking (ability loss)/(damage).

rweird: Thanks for pointing the bit about Timeless Body out, I missed it. Could you explain in more detail how you're creating a contingent spell with metamagic attached? In any case your character would find casting Ice Assassin fails every time.

Anthrowhale's 2nd Illithid: The Illithid Savant fails to mimic its form. IHS fails to remove this condition. The antimagic field makes the creature disappear. Your character still takes (ability loss)/(damage).

Mr Adventurer: CR 21 25, at most. Nothing can ever get higher than CR 21 25 (21+4 for being a boss) if you allow the feat Epic Spellcasting from the ELH.

Chronos's Druid: Either before or after he starts thinking about it, it's not important. He isn't taken by surprise though. See my post to everyone, above.

Gemini476's cult: You might be forgetting that the cultists all become hostile towards their leader.

The_Ditto: You're prevented from doing so (not because I wouldn't allow it in this challenge, but because of another reason).

Sith's Stuffy Doll: Assuming v28 from here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14007513&postcount=375), the Stuffy Doll kills it. Cheater :smalltongue: Sorry, forgot: without warning the Stuffy Doll dies upon 5 rounds after creation.

It seems to me the person who's gotten the closest is Heliomance due to some of her questions leaving people alive at the end of 5 rounds.

[OldTrees1]

Fishing exercise #fish
Try independent plans A, B and C again but replace Archivist 7 / Scared Exorcist 1 / Archivist 11 with Wizard 5 / Incantrix 10 / Wizard 4 and replace DMM Persisted Foresight with Incantrix Persisted Foresight. Since these are ECL 19 characters, they have all their powers before Round 1 (defined as after ECL 20 worth of xp).
Also trying plans D, E, F and G to try to find out what is going on.

Plan A
Wizard 5 / Incantrix 10 / Wizard 4
Persisted Foresight.
Wish teleport to the creature.
Make a Control Check on the Sphere of Annihilation inside my spell component pouch (While it is 15ft away from me and within 10ft of the creature).
If successful I move the Sphere into the creature's space.

Plan B
Wizard 5 / Incantrix 10 / Wizard 4
Persisted Foresight.
Wish teleport to the creature.
Withdraw the Deck of Many Things from spell component pouch.
Draw the Vizier and The Fates
Enact the Vizier's plan.


Plan C
I have been protecting three patches of untouched earth since 1st level. I check them once a year for messages without walking on them or otherwise despoiling them.
I have stored my xp every level in a thought bottle.
Wizard 5 / Incantrix 10 / Wizard 4
Persisted Foresight.
Wish teleport to the creature.
Withdraw the Deck of Many Things from spell component pouch.
Draw the Vizier
Teleport Thru Time to the first patch in the past (aiming for when I was 4th level). Leave a message with what Foresight and the Vizier told me. Along with my thought bottle. This package is left in the planned place that is slightly off of the patch.
Teleport Thru Time to the second patch 1 day after the Foresight Warning.
Past self finds the message and thought bottle within a year and can use the third patch if needed to enact the Vizier's plan.[/QUOTE]

Plan D:
Wizard 5 / Incantrix 10 / Wizard 4
Persisted Foresight.
Wish teleport to the creature.
Wait 5 turns and die.

Plan E:
I have been protecting three patches of untouched earth since 1st level. I check them once a year for messages without walking on them or otherwise despoiling them.
I have stored my xp every level in a thought bottle.
Wizard 5 / Incantrix 10 / Wizard 4
Persisted Foresight.
Wish teleport to the creature.
Teleport Thru Time to the first patch in the past (aiming for when I was 4th level). Leave a message with a funny picture. Along with my thought bottle. This package is left in the planned place that is slightly off of the patch.
Teleport Thru Time to the second patch 1 day after the Foresight Warning. Wait 5 turns and die.
Past self finds the funny picture and thought bottle within a year and can uses the third patch to arrive 1 day before I left.

Plan F:
Archivist 7 / Scared Exorcist 1 / Archivist 11
DMM Persisted Foresight.
Wish teleport to the creature.
Wait 5 turns and die.

Plan G:
I have been protecting three patches of untouched earth since 1st level. I check them once a year for messages without walking on them or otherwise despoiling them.
I have stored my xp every level in a thought bottle.
Archivist 7 / Scared Exorcist 1 / Archivist 11
DMM Persisted Foresight.
Wish teleport to the creature.
Teleport Thru Time to the first patch in the past (aiming for when I was 4th level). Leave a message with a funny picture. Along with my thought bottle. This package is left in the planned place that is slightly off of the patch.
Teleport Thru Time to the second patch 1 day after the Foresight Warning. Wait 5 turns and die.
Past self finds the funny picture and thought bottle within a year and can uses the third patch to arrive 1 day before I left.

[137beth]

So is version 2 still undefeated?
...I'm sure if we saw the stat-block it would be beaten in a day.

[OldTrees1]

So is version 2 still undefeated?
...I'm sure if we saw the stat-block it would be beaten in a day.

To be fair, most of the length is from characters that couldn't have beaten the V1 and did not learn from the first set of failures. (Basically ignore anything without Foresight and the thread thins a lot)

[Belial_the_Leveler]

So is version 2 still undefeated?
...I'm sure if we saw the stat-block it would be beaten in a day.

Doomsday Protocol [Cs]
If [insert entity name] would be defeated by any effect or condition, they can take any number of actions at any point in the past with the sole purpose of preventing that turn of events. Obviously, this makes it impossible for mortals to normally defeat them.





PS:
A character born and grown into the Far Realm doesn't have a past in normal reality for anyone to attack. A character born and grown into the distant future (say, a few hundred thousand years away), that makes all his preparations there then uses Teleport Through Time or other shenanigans to go back in the present just to enact his plan would not be affected by stuff happening in the past because he doesn't exist in the past at all.

[OldTrees1]

Doomsday Protocol [Cs]
If [insert entity name] would be defeated by any effect or condition, they can take any number of actions at any point in the past with the sole purpose of preventing that turn of events. Obviously, this makes it impossible for mortals to normally defeat them.





PS:
A character born and grown into the Far Realm doesn't have a past in normal reality for anyone to attack. A character born and grown into the distant future (say, a few hundred thousand years away), that makes all his preparations there then uses Teleport Through Time or other shenanigans to go back in the present just to enact his plan would not be affected by stuff happening in the past because he doesn't exist in the past at all.

Wait, do we know it has this? If so then we should be working on inevitable offenses and/or time wars.

Ooh.
Step 1: Become a self caused event.
Time Travel to before your origin. Cause your origin. (Important that this is not prompted by the entity)
Step 2: Force Round 1 to occur before your origin.
Time Travel to the past. (Far enough that your origin will be after your non entity inspired end)
Step 3: Win the infinite time travel "who hit first" war
???

[kardar233]

Doomsday Protocol [Cs]
If [insert entity name] would be defeated by any effect or condition, they can take any number of actions at any point in the past with the sole purpose of preventing that turn of events. Obviously, this makes it impossible for mortals to normally defeat them.

Hoo boy. This just changed from a game of D&D to a game of Achron. Let's test some causality.

There exists an Illithid Savant whose name is written in the stars of the Medusa Cascade, but let's call him Tyr. Tyr mysteriously blinked into existence one day and was granted immense power. Having feasted on the brains of an Ardent10/Metamind10 (with Practiced Manifester) and a Sorcerer20 he has access to 9th-level spells and powers as well as the Font of Power ability. He has the feat Supernatural Transformation, removing the XP cost on his powers, and the feat Eschew Materials. On him is a Psionic Contingency that manifests a fully augmented Temporal Acceleration when he is about to be affected by any negative effect. Since he achieved the ability to do so he has spent his time using Temporal Reiteration on Timeless Body and Font of Power, rendering him completely invulnerable.

When the creature uses any of its abilities on him it triggers his Contingency, giving him a round of apparent time to act in. He manifests Reality Revision to create a psionic equivalent of a Thought Bottle, and then he uses Teleport Through Time (Eschew Materials allowing him to ignore the tricky flower component) to the time of his first creation. Then, using the Arcane Spellsurge/Arcane Fusion/Celerity trick for actions he casts two Wishes; first, to create an Illithid where he first appeared, and second, to transport the Thought Bottle (with a handy explaining note) to him.

The newly created Illithid drinks the Thought Bottle attaining full power and knowing all that he will know in the future. He immediately starts his Temporal Reiteration/Timeless Body/Font of Power trick.

Tyr has made his existence a stable time loop where he is completely invulnerable at all points of the progression. Does the creature still succeed at killing him?

[Hecuba]

Hecuba's Elmyra: I'm not sure how you're becoming a construct - normal regeneration doesn't do that AFAIK. In any case, at the end of the 5th round, she loses the regeneration ability from (ability loss) and takes (damage).

Becoming a construct is a function of failing the will save when applying the half-golem arm/template.

Anyhoo, the ability loss is:

ex, Su, or Sr no
not necromantic
does not grant a fort save
not mind affecting
works on feats & class abilities


Anyone have any idea what it is?

[rweird]

rweird: Thanks for pointing the bit about Timeless Body out, I missed it. Could you explain in more detail how you're creating a contingent spell with metamagic attached? In any case your character would find casting Ice Assassin fails every time.

I don't see why you can't create magic items with metamagic (especially with wish-crafting). There is precedent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/staffs.htm#power) for staffs having metamagic, and in creating magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) it says "While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."

Metamagic reductions (DMM Persist) or just wish could overcome that.

Would I know why it fails, and would foresight warn me of its failure? Would I be able to cast other spells successfully?

Belial_the_Leveler: What is a [Cs] ability? I don't think it would be from Complete Scoundrel, but Innate, [Ex], [Su], and [Sp] are the only types of abilities in 3.5.

[Gemini476]

Belial_the_Leveler: What is a [Cs] ability? I don't think it would be from Complete Scoundrel, but Innate, [Ex], [Su], and [Sp] are the only types of abilities in 3.5.
Technically the only types are Natural (usually untyped, defined as "everything that isn't one of the other types", includes stuff like a bird's flight speed), (Ex)traordinary, (Su)pernatural, (Sp)ell-like, and (Ps)i-like.

"Innate" is an over-type that covers anything that's, well, innate to the race in question. IIRC. Special abilities are always (Ex), (Su), (Sp), or (Ps).

[rweird]

Technically the only types are Natural (usually untyped, defined as "everything that isn't one of the other types", includes stuff like a bird's flight speed), (Ex)traordinary, (Su)pernatural, (Sp)ell-like, and (Ps)i-like.

"Innate" is an over-type that covers anything that's, well, innate to the race in question. IIRC. Special abilities are always (Ex), (Su), (Sp), or (Ps).

I forgot (Ps), and confused the terminology of natural and innate. Thank you for the correction.

[Chronos]

Psi-like abilities are actually a subset of spell-like abilities. And the rules may or may not acknowledge the existence of natural abilities: In some places, they say that all abilities are (Ex), (Su), or (Sp).

[Gemini476]

Psi-like abilities are actually a subset of spell-like abilities. And the rules may or may not acknowledge the existence of natural abilities: In some places, they say that all abilities are (Ex), (Su), or (Sp).

I thought that they said that all special abilities are (Ex), (Su), or (Sp), with anything that's not in one of those categories being (Na)?

Which means that no special abilities are natural abilities, naturally. But there are quite a few things that aren't under the Special Abilities umbrella. Although a lot of those are also (Ex), (Su), or (Sp).

A bird flying is a natural ability, from what I recall. Presumably the same goes for a shark breathing water or a human walking.

[Yanisa]

Psi-like abilities are actually a subset of spell-like abilities. And the rules may or may not acknowledge the existence of natural abilities: In some places, they say that all abilities are (Ex), (Su), or (Sp).

:smallconfused:

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)

Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

I am pretty sure the rules acknowledge natural abilities.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

What is a [Cs] ability? Innate, [Ex], [Su], and [Sp] are the only types of abilities in 3.5.


There's also divine/cosmic abilities. But in this case, we're talking about a creature with abilities that are entirely made up. My example ability on what it could have is essentially saying "this is a [Cs] ability specifically so it doesn't fall under the rules of [Ex], [Sp], [Ps] or [Su] abilities"

The effects being arbitrary to begin with, it doesn't have to be a normal ability type. After all, if it were extraordinary, insubstantial would have prevented it and if it were anything else, magic immunity or AMF would have stopped it.

[Anthrowhale]

The Illithid Savant fails to mimic its form.


Oops, this illithid forgot about the 'physical' clause for alter form. I'll use a slightly more intelligent and paranoid illithid (below).



IHS fails to remove this condition.


This I don't understand. IHS works on an 'effect or other condition with 1 or more rounds' and always works. '1 or more rounds' seems to surely be satisfied. Can we assume that all the experiments required to determine your exact interpretation of the scope of 'effect' or 'other condition'? How exactly are you defining things?



Your character still takes (ability loss)/(damage).


This appears forbidden. Keeper Immunities grant: "... not subject to subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain" paired with Tarrasque regeneration provides immunity to all ability loss & damage. Is something missing from the sequence?

Edit: ignore Spawn 3. Go to Spawn 4.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

This I don't understand. IHS works on an 'effect or other condition with 1 or more rounds' and always works.
1) It doesn't work on instantaneous effects - those don't have a duration. So it wouldn't work on things like Flesh to Stone, energy drain, ability damage or plain damage, death, dispelling or disjunction. It also doesn't work on effects that aren't on you specifically - it couldn't end a Reverse Gravity effect or the normal planar traits of a plane because those effects are area effects rather than being cast on you. Sure, you could instantly end their effect on you momentarily but as you're still within their AoE, the effect would return as soon as the IHS was resolved.

2) It only "always works" if some other wording doesn't prevent it. For example, if some effect had the wording "this effect cannot be removed" or "this effect can only be removed by X", then Iron Heart Surge could not remove it. As this is a custom ability of a custom enemy, it can have whatever wording the DM wants, including one that makes it impossible to remove.

[Sith_Happens]

As this is a custom ability of a custom enemy, it can have whatever wording the DM wants, including one that makes it impossible to remove.

We don't know that. In fact, in the OP the creature is stated to be almost entirely RAW-legit.


Hoo boy. This just changed from a game of D&D to a game of Achron. Let's test some causality.

...Though Full-Throttle Time ShenanigansTM are still probably the key to beating it. Specifically, I wanted to point out that for some strange reason no one's used a fast-time demiplane yet.

[Gemini476]

...Though Full-Throttle Time ShenanigansTM are still probably the key to beating it. Specifically, I wanted to point out that for some strange reason no one's used a fast-time demiplane yet.

Wouldn't a timeless plane be better? That would stop an ability that occurs in 1d4+1 turns indefinitely, right?