Dragon Shaman vs Fighter w/Dragonborn template

[Cind3rs]

Thoughts? I'm not so worried about min/maxing, but I'd like an effective character. Shaman has auras, some skill focus, a special ability, and breath weapon. Fighter with DB template is able to wear heavy armor, land hits, breath weapon, etc.

DS breath weapon is 1d6 at lvl 4, 2d6 at lvl 6, 3d6 at lvl 8, etc. (so 8d6 at lvl 20)
Fighter w/ DB is 1d8 at lvl 3 (HD3 technically), 2d8 at 6, so 6d8 at lvl 20.

Nearly identical max and average stats for those, though DB allows you to choose the energy type.



Or! I could go DS with DB template with wings. I'm not big about flying, I like to play for the challenge and not to sidestep the problems.

P.S. not interested in DFA.

[Mr Adventurer]

Warblade with Dragonborn.

[OldTrees1]

Yet another alternative to consider: Dragonborn Martial Rogue (Rogue -10d6 Sneak Attack, +11 Fighter Feats)

About the 2 options you listed:
While I prefer Fighter and it is more versatile than Dragon Shaman, Fighter does require a higher system mastery to find this versatility.

If you go Fighter I suggest:
Dragonborn Goliath that takes 1-2 level of Goliath Barbarian, take the Knockback feat and take the Dungeoncrasher Fighter alternate class feature at Ftr 2 and Ftr 6.


Regardless, if you have a breath weapon, consider Entangling Exhalation and Shape Breath[Draconomicon]

[Thurbane]

Wow, for 14 minutes there I was worried someone might not mention Warblade when someone asked for advice about a Fighter!

:smalltongue:

On a more serious note, though, I would probably prefer Dragon Shaman myself. Especially if you use the ACF to swap out one of your auras for a Least Draconic Invocation (see Dragon Magic).

It really depends on what you are trying to do, though. For ability to contribute in combat, Fighter (if all splatbooks are allowed) is probably going to have the advantage; if you're looking for general utility and ability to be able to pitch in while out of combat as well, Dragon Shaman might have the edge.

[Warlocknthewind]

The problem in comparing these two classes isthey are designed to do entirely different things. A fighter fights, that's about it. A dragon shaman is a force multiplier, a support class who's only combat roll is some AoE, and getting into flanking position.

Dragonborn adds some versitility to the fighter, but doesn't change it's roll in a party, to fight.

:smallcool:

[Red Fel]

Thoughts? I'm not so worried about min/maxing, but I'd like an effective character. Shaman has auras, some skill focus, a special ability, and breath weapon. Fighter with DB template is able to wear heavy armor, land hits, breath weapon, etc.

DS breath weapon is 1d6 at lvl 4, 2d6 at lvl 6, 3d6 at lvl 8, etc. (so 8d6 at lvl 20)
Fighter w/ DB is 1d8 at lvl 3 (HD3 technically), 2d8 at 6, so 6d8 at lvl 20.

Nearly identical max and average stats for those, though DB allows you to choose the energy type.



Or! I could go DS with DB template with wings. I'm not big about flying, I like to play for the challenge and not to sidestep the problems.

P.S. not interested in DFA.

Well, you've got the basics down. At capstone, and assuming no ACFs, your DSham has 15 BAB, two good saves, a 10d6 breath weapon, natural armor, aura +5, Commune 1/week, and a nice Lay on Hands-type ability. And some Skill Focus. Your Dragonborn Fighter gets either a breath weapon that deals 1d8 + 1d8 per 3 HD, which at 20th level is 7d8 (1d8 + 20/3=6d8 (round down)) or (Ex) flight (no medium or heavy armor/load without feats) or Darkvision, low-light vision and Blindsense. The Fighter also gets +20 BAB, one good save, and 11 extra feats.

Now, the Dragonborn can gain other things, by merit of its Dragonblood subtype. Those cost feats. However, the feats involved (such as Improved Dragon Wings, Reinforced Wings and Heavyweight Wings, and Entangling Exhalation and Exhaled Immunity) are not Fighter feats. That means they come from his common feat pool. You can even take Draconic Aura, to gain an aura like the DSham has. But again, not a Fighter feat.

And that's the bottom line. Your Dragonborn Fighter will have his full pool of Fighter feats, but his regular feats will be drained by trying to do what a DSham does natively. He will be great at the usual Fighter stuff, and have slightly more versatility thanks to his Dragonblood subtype and Draconic feats. The DSham, by contrast, does not require extra feats or ACFs to do what it does natively. Admittedly, what it does is not mindblowing - breath weapon, aura, Commune, that's about it. As Warlocknthewind notes, it's a support class with some AoE.

And yet, by merit of having these abilities natively, without having to rely on heavy feat investment, I'd argue that the DSham is just slightly superior, overall.

[Mato]

Go dragonfire adapt.
Better breath weapon than both and you get the wings too. Plus invocations.

Also, you can dip fighter, psychic fighter, monk, and the feat variant of uncanny trickster to gain nine feats over nine levels if they are that important to you. So you could be dragonborn and pick up elven dragon shaman levels to live the best of both worlds.

[nedz]

The problem is that neither of these options are very effective. They have very limited options and so unless your game is strictly "Kick in the Door" you will end up watching other people role-play much of the time. If you were to replace Fighter with something like Ranger or Barbarian then you would have a character with some useful skills — obviously Warblade is stronger.

Do you know what the rest of the party looks like ?

[Cind3rs]

Yeah, I'm in a party with a summoner and a cleric. The summoner plans on playing his tier down and work at buffing/helping others more than just winning. The cleric is already on the OP track, having asked about nightsticks, metamagic, strength devotion, lesser aasimar, etc.

I'm supposed to do the party's fighter archetype. I've never had a game go past lvl 11, so I'm not really even looking at lvl 20. I'm thinking about lvl 3-11 fun.

I'm leaning toward the DS that'll have more utility, instead of staring dumbly when not in combat. Oh yeah, I'm the party face, too.

We're limited to core books and anything else requires GM approval. I got approval for all my stuff, as it's underpowered, so I'm clearly not up to some shenanigans. The cleric got his hand slapped already with his cheese.

[Urpriest]

Yeah, I'm in a party with a summoner and a cleric. The summoner plans on playing his tier down and work at buffing/helping others more than just winning. The cleric is already on the OP track, having asked about nightsticks, metamagic, strength devotion, lesser aasimar, etc.

I'm supposed to do the party's fighter archetype. I've never had a game go past lvl 11, so I'm not really even looking at lvl 20. I'm thinking about lvl 3-11 fun.

I'm leaning toward the DS that'll have more utility, instead of staring dumbly when not in combat. Oh yeah, I'm the party face, too.

We're limited to core books and anything else requires GM approval. I got approval for all my stuff, as it's underpowered, so I'm clearly not up to some shenanigans. The cleric got his hand slapped already with his cheese.

You've already got two support-focused characters, so I'd definitely avoid Dragon Shaman. If you want to be the face and have interesting things to do outside of combat, why not consider Paladin?

[eggynack]

You've already got two support-focused characters.
That's not necessarily true. The cleric seems obviously inclined towards direct melee combat, and that's likely to remain so even without full access to resources. Similarly, while the summoner is said to tend towards support more than usual, he's still, y'know, a summoner. That means summoning, which often means beatsticks aplenty. It seems possible that a support class would have a lot to support, in that situation, as the summoned beatsticks let a summoner act as a good force multiplier.

With that in mind, why not a bard? Run dragonfire inspiration, maybe along with snowflake wardance, and obviously boost charisma based skills a lot, and you'll end up with a character that's fully capable of beating an enemy's face in, similarly capable of acting as a face when the need arises, and finally capable of pumping up a large quantity of summons. Full BAB obviously isn't a prerequisite if you're considering dragon shaman, and you get even more dragon theming than you would out of a dragonborn fighter. Finally, you have a much better chance of keeping up with a pair of high tier characters. Seems like the best of all possible worlds to me.

[nedz]

Yeah, I'm in a party with a summoner and a cleric. The summoner plans on playing his tier down and work at buffing/helping others more than just winning. The cleric is already on the OP track, having asked about nightsticks, metamagic, strength devotion, lesser aasimar, etc.

I'm supposed to do the party's fighter archetype.

You seem to have both a Cleric and the Summoner's horde filling that role already ?

You seem to be lacking an Arcanist, how about a Gish ?

[Thurbane]

If you're looking for a faceman that has a draconic theme, and the party is lacking a little in the arcanist area, I'd suggest you re-consider Dragonfire Adept (unless your DM has specifically banned it).

It has good social skills, UMD and Invocations to help cover/support the arcane needs of the party, and a lot of nifty little class features on the side as well. If you want to "tank it up", go for a PrC that has full BAB and advances spellcasting (although you won't qualify for one that requires spellcasting to begin with, without a dip). You'll also need to be careful about how your Invocations interact with armor.

If your DM is sticking to core + PHB2, this build may not be feasible though.

[Psyren]

Face with frontline combat ability? Glaivelock would like a word.

[Red Fel]

Yeah, I'm in a party with a summoner and a cleric. The summoner plans on playing his tier down and work at buffing/helping others more than just winning. The cleric is already on the OP track, having asked about nightsticks, metamagic, strength devotion, lesser aasimar, etc.

I'm supposed to do the party's fighter archetype. I've never had a game go past lvl 11, so I'm not really even looking at lvl 20. I'm thinking about lvl 3-11 fun.

I'm leaning toward the DS that'll have more utility, instead of staring dumbly when not in combat. Oh yeah, I'm the party face, too.

We're limited to core books and anything else requires GM approval. I got approval for all my stuff, as it's underpowered, so I'm clearly not up to some shenanigans. The cleric got his hand slapped already with his cheese.

As others have mentioned, right now, the Cleric is your party's Fighter archetype. He's going to Fighter better than a Fighter can. Similarly, as others have noticed, a DMM Persist Cleric and a buffing Summoner are going to have your support role down.

Right now, the only thing that isn't represented is the "party face," which is apparently you. (Yay!) So let's start there. You want combat functionality, out-of-combat functionality, and social skills. You want abilities that aren't already well-represented by an OP Cleric and a buffbot Summoner.

What you don't want is the Fighter. You won't just be staring dumbly when not in combat, you'll be staring dumbly when in combat, because the Cleric will be doing better than you. Fighter in combat when there's a combat-ready Cleric isn't just redundant, it's boring. Don't want ToB? Pity, but alright, we'll leave that out.

You say "We're limited to core books" like it means something. Let's start there. Please define core. PHB and DMG? Completes? Settings? Are ACFs okay as long as the base class is "core"?

You don't have to be OP, but there are ways of making a character that's quite functional. Warlock has already been mentioned, and he's brilliant. Duskblade is fun, frontline ability with a dash of casting for kick. Or just give them all the finger and go Druid, as you like. But let's start with the question: What's actually available?