ACG Swashbuckler Discussion

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Ok in another thread of mine we got into a debate over whether the Swashbuckler was a weak martial class or not. One of the people there mentioned its lack of damage output as just too low for their liking. In return I brought up the fact that at level 11 you can take signature deed and use it on their Deed of Opportune Parry and Riposte which lets you not have to spend a point of Panache on a level 1 ability which is fairly nice.

The Parry and Riposte allows you, during your opponents turn to roll an attack against the foe when he declares an attack on you. You roll your to hit roll and they roll theirs. If yours is the higher you parried their shot, using up an AoO in the process. Then you have the option as an immediate action to counter attack.

Swashbucklers gain the Deed Precise strike at level 3rd level. This allows you to add your Swashbuckler level to your damage rolls, all damage rolls.

The other debater figured that at level 11 you can have a max of +9 to Dex and your plus 11 from level. Add +2 from Weapon Specialization, +Power Attack (+6 Two handing a Rapier for example) = 28 Damage +1d6 So a minimum of 29 to a maximum of 34 damage per shot.

He uses the Black Jinni (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/black-jinni) as a random encounter at level 11. The Black Jinni has a BaB of 16 so 4 attacks. With an Dex of +9 then I have 9 AoO to use up during the opponents turn. I could if I rolled high. Even with the -2/-4 from Power attack I can still hit well if I have the feats Fencing Grace and Weapon Focus to use Dex to hit, plus a nice +1 including my own BaB of +11 which the rules say I use my normal BaB which is +11.

So I could parry all 4 of his attack quite easily with a +11 +9 +1 for a +21 to my AoO Parry rolls. Now I can only attack once, since I would be using my immediate action for my next round by counter attacking (So need feats to grant more immediate actions if used in this way.) but I could roll minimum damage of 29 on a counter attack. Then my next turn and with a +21 on first strike and +16 on the second and +11 on the third I am likely to hit the AC of the Black Jinni which is 28 with the first two, less likely with the third. If I rolled those two ar minimum of 29 that is 87 damage in the rough of one turn. 87 against an opponent whos health is 184 so not quite half but a lot of damage for one round. If you managed to roll the third attack to hit it goes to 116 that turn.

How is this low damage? I mean it is not the same as a mounted charger or full plated two hander damage.

[Snowbluff]

I think the problem has to do more with how few attacks they get, as opposed to things like vivisection, who can get 35 damage per hit consistently, and synthesists.

[facelessminion]

It's also important to remember that the Parry & Riposte damage, while really awesome, is also very, very limited in scope. Any non-mindless thing is going to take all of one round of attacks on you to realize that you are more difficult to digest than other melee critters, and try and go for them instead - just ridding you of a source of damage.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

True-- till you are standing at its back stabbing it in the kidney.

[Kudaku]

I think the swashbuckler is decent if not outstanding damage-wise, though it should be noted that you can't wield a rapier in two hands and you can't use the Precise Strike deed with a two-handed weapon.

I'm more worried about the saves. Charmed Life is both limited by charges and eats up Immediate Actions - I find it underwhelming on a class that only has one strong save, and that save is Reflex. Twist Away helps with the fortitude saves, but doesn't come online until level 11. Divine Protection would have helped but the swashbuckler doesn't qualify for it without dipping cleric.

[Drelua]

I feel I should clarify, the Black Jinni (which was just a randomly rolled CR 12 creature, I don't know how it stacks up to other CR 12s) uses natural attacks, so it's attack routine is 24/24/23, or 19/19/18 with power attack. Your attack roll at that level is 11 BAB +9 DEX +1 from weapon focus, +2 weapon training, another +2 if you have gloves of dueling, call it +2 enhancement bonus, for a total of 27. If you power attack, you take a -3 at this level for +6 damage, and you take a -2 on parries because it's large. That puts you parry bonus at about 22, giving you a bit of an advantage, but that means you'll be parrying a bit more than half of it's attacks, so there's still a pretty good chance you get hit at least once in a full attack. Also, don't forget that it's reach means you provoke from approaching it unless you have lunge, which is probably a good feat choice.

I have to wonder what your AC would look like, though. You'd want something that doesn't interfere with your DEX, so probably Celestial Armor, a haramaki, or bracers. Other than the +3 from nimble, I don't see too much that helps your AC. Now the damage isn't too bad (it's about what I was doing just yesterday with a fighter 12, but he could also do thing like move and full attack, he had reach and he could trip) and with signature deed parry is certainly a nice option, but I have a fairly effective monk that this Jinni would only have hit on a 20 when I started playing him at level 12, and he had some pretty decent damage on a full attack, as well as a few options. Swashbuckler just doesn't do anything but parry and do some damage. It's got some little tricks to help it do that, but that's all. Otherwise, it's defences aren't very good, especially it's saves which you can't boost with charmed life in the same turn that you riposte, and all it has out of combat are a few skills.

Basically, the class does decent damage and parry is alright, but that's about it, it seems fairly weak everywhere else.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Aren't CR judges against parties though. Because based off Bab wouldn't it be closer to a lvl 16 then a level 11.

[BlackDragonKing]

My main problems with the Swashbuckler are its actions being messed up and failing to deliver on the core notion of the class.

One: it has two bad saves for no real reason. The fighter AND the gunslinger both have good fort saves, and the gunslinger had a good fort and good reflex save. The Slayer and Brawler, the other two nonmagical full BAB classes of the book, had a good fort save and a good reflex save. The Swashbuckler gets the rogue's saving throw progression for no reason, even though the rogue's saving throw progression is one of the REASONS the rogue is considered barely functional in combat. To compensate for this, it gets a clumsy band-aid with Charmed Life, which gives it a second resource to track on a martial character and consumes immediate actions.

Immediate actions it needs to use most of its deeds.

Everything the Swashbuckler has going for it is deeply troubled by the realization that a lot of its tricks just plain don't work if it uses Charmed Life at all, and it falls into the very, very bad place with saving throws; blowing a reflex save hurts you, blowing a fort save kills you, and blowing a will save makes you kill your friends. The Swash might dodge those fireballs, and at level 11, even do so with Evasion, but when you run up against a nasty poison, which usually requires multiple fort saves, or dominate effects, or frightening creatures, or a whole bevy of effects you really can't afford to fail a save on, the action you SHOULD be using for deeds is instead being used to repair a weakness the class in no way needed to have. If it had one bad save, like the Brawler and Slayer, it would be easy to focus on shoring that up with your higher-than-normal amount of feats and so on, but the Swashbuckler that doesn't want to have Charmed Life eating up his immediate actions needs to invest in TWO saves to shore them up.

Secondly, the swashbuckler is billed as a mobile fighter, darting in and out of the fray and all that. That's great, but it's not and if that's what Paizo was going for they should feel bad they misstepped that badly. The Swashbuckler doesn't get into Spring Attack-type abilities on its own, and with the Spring Attack feat line it's not really any better than any other martial already was. The swashbuckler gets no class features at all that help it move and attack; they chucked a couple acrobatics-related deeds on it and called it a day, which means for the most part players will still move their swashbuckler a single step at a time in battle to keep their full attacks up. A deed to move as a swift action would have easily solved this dilemma, but no such deed exists. As it is, the BRAWLER is the mobile fighter on account of its ability to charge and attack at full strength with Pummeling Style.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I completely agree with you on the mobile fighter issue. That is where I see the shortcomings of this class as a whole.

I originally was posting about a gestalt of Bard and Swashbuckler. Sure I dont get any new saves from it (Will and Reflex) but I can synergism well and actually use the Bard to make up for some of the Swashbucklers failings but that is more because of how powerful the Bard is.

I think they need to work on the Deeds, one pass some Erratas to change some of those to move actions or free actions. Heck Change Charmed Life to a free action would help a lot of the time. Give it good Fort and free Charmed Life and your save issue is solid as you can use Cha to Will save a lot easier.

The fact that Slashing Grace is the only way to add Dex to Damage (Yes there is Fencing Grace but that is Web only for now)

People claim the Daring Champion Cavalier is a better Swashbuckler, but even then its not very mobile.

Personally I wish they kept the playtest version of Precise Strike.
EDIT: Also would like to point out Precise strike specifically says no attacking with a weapon in the other hand, technically does not call out Two-Handing a weapon as against the rules.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I am surprised I have not begun to see more Fixes for the class like mine yet with peoples issues with it.

[squiggit]

Passive charmed life. Some sort of free spring attack or vital strike esque shenanigans so you could actually be mobile. Maybe make the acrobatics deed free.

I mean, having riposte, immediate reaction step and super precise strike all on the same action would still be a pain but it'd be more manageable.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Indeed if it had more mobility abilities it would be nice.

[deuxhero]

The problem is that Swashbuckler is inferior to Daring Champion Cavalier in every way.

See that damage you listed? Well try adding your level (from challenge) to it (then +4 because a Champion's Banner at 8000 is cheep for +4 damage), then add the damage from Order of the Cockatrice/Flame. It looks a LOT less impressive.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

But it still fails in the movement department.

Truth is Precise Strike says you cannot fight with a weapon in your other hand. It says nothing about restricting two weapon fighting. And Bastard Sword is a 1 handed sword which can be two handed, or a dueling sword which can be used for two handing allowing ease of power attack and higher damage dice.

Now yes adding your level TWICE is good and the easy damage items are nice but nothing that cannot be matched with feats or items of their own.

[deuxhero]

The only movement related abilities Swashbuckler has are dodging panache, which a daring champion has, and Swashbuckler's Grace.

Swashbuckler's grace is lame because of many many things (Grace spell, CMD/CMB being broken), but most prominently Escape Route, which a Cavalier gets for free. Even ignoring how strict RAW it works on yourself and stops all AoOs forever, at 9th level (1 level after Swashbuckler's Grace) you can swift action tactician to grant it to a miniature giant space hamster you keep in your gear and you avoid AoOs even RAI.

Order of the Flame also gets a nice movement ability half the time.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

All I can say is HUH?

[Deadkitten]

A point that I saw at some point is that Daring Champion has the option of TWF, if an enemy is Close they can TWF with their Challenge and deal more damage than the Swashbuckler. If they have to move in, they can just use 1 weapon and take feats that would allow him to get off AoO's. The Daring Champion can do that better since the have a good fort and all they really have to do is compensate their bad will save.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

True enough. I feel like they should have granted the Step Up line of feats to them as bonus feats if not going to give them more mobility.

Also in the playtest you could double the damage of the Precise Strike by paying an additional Panache point. Sucks they removed it.

[deuxhero]

All I can say is HUH?

Cavaliers (and Daring Champions) get a teamwork feat at level 1 and Escape Route can be taken with it. Escape Route prevents AoO from moving through spaces "adjacent to you or within your space".

Most teamwork feats say you need to be "adjacent" (and you can't be adjacent to yourself) to an ally for it to function, or are useless if you are on your own (you can act in the surprise round if you can act in the surprise round). Escape Route says "adjacent to you or within your space" and you are, naturally, in your own space and you are your own ally so it works with yourself, preventing any movement based AoO ever (which is way better.

Even if Escape Route did require an ally, Greater Tactician lets you give it to any ally, including a tiny creature in your gear, as a swift action and STILL avoid AoOs

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Ah ok, well Daring Champion does not get Swashbuckler's Grace which is another thing I was confused on with your posts.

[deuxhero]

I said they got dodging panache (which they do) and it didn't matter if they got Swashbuckler's Grace because Escape Route is superior even if it is played as intended.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Yes unless you run into a trap or need for a will save.

[Yondu]

I'm quite fond of the swashbuckler, the idea of the light fighter with a quick sword in one hand and main-gauche in the other hand is in my mind...
That's why I'm disapointed of the ACG class.... In fencing, Main-Gauche was mainly used to parry the attack to launch a quick counter with the other hand, the class does not reflect this, the swashbuckler is a quick man, dodging and ducking during the fight, the weak relfex save is a miss for me, the swashbuckler is a master of the fencing school, just like the monk is a master of the martial arts schools, there is no reflection of this, in the archetypes or in the class....
Once again, I'm starving of the swashbukler spirit...Please Paizo, just take a minute to look at "Scaramouche" or "The Three Musketeers" and build something that make me dream....

[Arutema]

The thing which most disappoints me about the swashbuckler is that all of these issues were brought up by playtesters during the playtest period.

Paizo took editorial time to give other classes, especially the arcanist new toys, but delivered the swashbuckler effectively identical to the flawed playtest version.

It makes you wonder when, not if, Paizo gave up on caster-martial balance.

[deuxhero]

Yes unless you run into a trap or need for a will save.

Charmed Life's limitation mean it isn't too useful here either.

[Kudaku]

Truth is Precise Strike says you cannot fight with a weapon in your other hand. It says nothing about restricting two weapon fighting. And Bastard Sword is a 1 handed sword which can be two handed, or a dueling sword which can be used for two handing allowing ease of power attack and higher damage dice.

Now yes adding your level TWICE is good and the easy damage items are nice but nothing that cannot be matched with feats or items of their own.

Well, let's see. A bastard sword isn't always a one-handed weapon, it counts as however many hands you are using to wield it. So THF a bastard sword does not qualify for precise strike.
Assuming the ruling on bastards swords was specific to only that type of weapon, if you're wielding a dueling sword (or any other one-handed weapon, really) in two hands then you run into the rest of the Precise Strike limitation.


To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler.

Let's say you're attacking with a dueling sword wielded in two hands.
Is there a weapon in your other hand? Yes, the dueling sword.
Are you attacking with it? Yes, I am.

You've broken the limitations for Precise Strike, so you don't get the deed bonus.

Precise Strike exists to make up for the damage gap between weapons wielded in one hand and two handed weapons. It's written specifically so that Precise Strike doesn't interact with THF. The limitation is very much intentional.

TWF might work as long as you're using a "non-handed weapon", like the bladed boot - although I'd expect GM variation on that one. I seem to recall there was a FAQ on armor spikes that had something to say on the "handedness" of TWF that may play in here, but I don't have time to look it up at the moment.

[Eskil]

Also in the playtest you could double the damage of the Precise Strike by paying an additional Panache point. Sucks they removed it.

They didn't remove it though. Top-left corner of page 58. Same page as the illustration.