T'nari Tactics

[bjoern]

So were 3 sessions into our dungeon. So far every encounter has had us against T'Nari/Demon/Outsider of some flavor.

They've had these traits :
Immunity to fire, poison, electricity
Resist 10 cold, acid
DR/5 cold iron or silver
Fast healing 5
Summon T'Nari (annoying)
Aura of Retribution (nasty)

The fast healing and Aura we encountered last night were very potent. We made our way through the fight but it exhausted everything we had. We ended the session by heading back to town to re-equip ourselves to better handle the dungeon.

I'm really wishing I hadnt grabbed so many BFC and utility spells and instead had more blasting spells. We don't have a lot of range and the aura ate us alive there.


Anyway, what is some good gear to grab that will help out against this kind of enemy. Were 7th level. Money is very very limited. Range is important against the guys with the aura of retribution. I'm thinking cold iron and silver bolts/arrows and some melee weapons.

Any thoughts?

[rockdeworld]

-Assuming we're talking about Jovoc Demons, you could toss Black Tentacles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm) at them and stand back. As small creatures with few HD, they don't have great grapple checks. Or you could ignore them, since their full attacks deal weak damage. They seem to be built to be defensive tanks, but don't have much in the way of offense.
-Recall the summon ability only works 1/4 time, and summoned creatures can't summon.
-When you're talking about blasting spells, I assume you mean SR: No spells like Orb of Fire, since almost all demons have spell resistance. Even then it's only worthwhile if you can bypass their immunities (say with Orb of Force) and deal a lot of damage (say with Arcane Thesis Twinned Empowered etc etc).

[Blackhawk748]

I second Black Tentacles, if they're small thatll usually do it.

[bjoern]

-Assuming we're talking about Jovoc Demons, you could toss Black Tentacles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm) at them and stand back. As small creatures with few HD, they don't have great grapple checks. Or you could ignore them, since their full attacks deal weak damage. They seem to be built to be defensive tanks, but don't have much in the way of offense.
-Recall the summon ability only works 1/4 time, and summoned creatures can't summon.
-When you're talking about blasting spells, I assume you mean SR: No spells like Orb of Fire, since almost all demons have spell resistance. Even then it's only worthwhile if you can bypass their immunities (say with Orb of Force) and deal a lot of damage (say with Arcane Thesis Twinned Empowered etc etc).

Im a kobold sorcerer 6/Incant 1and level 6 I took ancestral relic feat for a rune staff to get some versatility of spells. Doing this put off greater rites until level 9 (and access to 4th level spells until next level). Kind of regretting that decision now.

As far as blasting goes, I've been leaning heavily on Practical Empowered Magic Missile to get in some damage. The SR can be a b**** though. Next level I'll be able to pick up a level 4 spell and put a few more on my staff. Probably learn Wings of Flurry and put 1/day black tentacles and celerity on the staff. Until then its kind of rough though.

[Envyus]

Tanar'ri it is spelled tanar'ri

[Blackhawk748]

Grab a scroll, also i think Web should be mentioned here, Grease as well, Haboob is also good times.

[rockdeworld]

Im a kobold sorcerer 6/Incant 1and level 6 I took ancestral relic feat for a rune staff to get some versatility of spells. Doing this put off greater rites until level 9 (and access to 4th level spells until next level). Kind of regretting that decision now.

As far as blasting goes, I've been leaning heavily on Practical Empowered Magic Missile to get in some damage. The SR can be a b**** though. Next level I'll be able to pick up a level 4 spell and put a few more on my staff. Probably learn Wings of Flurry and put 1/day black tentacles and celerity on the staff. Until then its kind of rough though.
Wings of Flurry is SR: Yes (but otherwise great). I may have to return to my "ignore them" suggestion. What spells do you have available then? Can you UMD a scroll of Black Tentacles? Is there someone in your party with Mettle and decent damage? I'm guessing no, since you had a problem with them the first time, but if not you could let that person handle it, maybe with a Bull's Strength.

[Blackhawk748]

Well slap a Bears Endurance on your beatstick, throw Vigor on him and them just let him go to town as you grease the little buggers

[bjoern]

Wings of Flurry is SR: Yes (but otherwise great). I may have to return to my "ignore them" suggestion. What spells do you have available then? Can you UMD a scroll of Black Tentacles?

Wings of flurry is good , but I just realized it has the same range as their Aura , so I would take all damage dealt by the spell (which would kill me) so I'll have to use something with range > 30'. I've been using glitterdust, grease, and stinking cloud to take them out of the fight. But as far as killing them goes it's kind of sad since they're completely incapacitated but still can't kill them.

My spells are magic missile, LOoF, grease, true strike, expedious retreat, benign transposition , nerveskitter, mage armor , wings of cover, glitter dust, scorching ray,alter self, see invisibility, invisibility, dimension hop, haste, stinking cloud.

I'm pretty much the party's only source of damage due to the DR.

Yes I can use a wand of black tentacles as the spell is on my spell list. However it would cost 21000 gp. A little out of my price range. Money fixes every problem in d&d. However our WBL is below normal. So money is tight. I'm considering grabbing some special material arrows/bolts (for the other PCs to use)

Our biggest problem I think is that we don't have a meat head with a great sword that deals 50+ damage per hit. It may be a tier 8 build but I think its necessary for a party to have a guy that can smash stuff.


EDIT-- we were also looking at hiring a mercenary/warrior for like 5sp or something like that . They'd be a level 5 warrior so they could be our meathead damage dealer.......

EDIT-- Regarding black tentacles, they do 1d6+4 bludgeoning damage. DR/5 would shut that down wouldn't it? It would still Tie them up pretty well but between DR/5 and fast healing 5 it wouldn't gain any ground.

[rockdeworld]

Yes I can use a wand of black tentacles
Scroll. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) 700gp. And I was asking if you could UMD it because you need to have the caster level of the scroll to use it. But then I re-read the rules and saw that a scroll of Black Tentacles has CL 7. So you don't even need a UMD check.


My spells are magic missile, LOoF, grease, true strike, expedious retreat, benign transposition , nerveskitter, mage armor , wings of cover, glitter dust, scorching ray,alter self, see invisibility, invisibility, dimension hop, haste, stinking cloud.

Our biggest problem I think is that we don't have a meat head with a great sword that deals 50+ damage per hit. It may be a tier 8 build but I think its necessary for a party to have a guy that can smash stuff.

EDIT-- Regarding black tentacles, they do 1d6+4 bludgeoning damage. DR/5 would shut that down wouldn't it? It would still Tie them up pretty well but between DR/5 and fast healing 5 it wouldn't gain any ground.
Your spells are good. Just toss Glitterdust at them and walk on by (http://youtu.be/AO073fekFfA?t=17s).

You don't need to kill enemies when you remove their ability to impede you. For the same reason, you don't need a supercharger (which is tier 4 anyways, but also showcases how tier 4 isn't the same thing as "useless," since it's good at its job). Black tentacles deals no damage because of their fast healing, but completely stops them from bothering you for 7 rounds. That should be enough time to leave the room and lock the door/bury them in a cave in/leave.

[Curbstomp]

If you are the only source of damage in your party that can reliably overcome DR 5 at level 7 what other classes are you adventuring with?

I am assuming that there is no wizard
A paladin should be able to do it by default with even moderately good stats at this level and Extra Smite is very much a feat to lean on.
A warlock can ignore the DR with his class features
A barbarian can rage and overcome DR even with moderate stats
A cleric should be able to buff your party members enough to overcome DR reliably or switch to damaging or crowd control spells.
A druid should be able to crowd control and buff allies with spells or wild shape and cut through your opponents personally.
A fighter at level seven should always be doing over 5 damage a hit even with suboptimal feats.
A monk should be able to overcome DR with combat-oriented feats and if not, grappling is an option.
A ranger should have evil outsider as a favored enemy if you are fighting them regularly and has enough attacks to bring this to bear with either combat tree.
A rogue/ninja should have enough dice with sneak attack or sudden strike to regularly overcome DR.
A warmage should be able to tear through them individually next level with an Orb of Sound or Orb of Force. No SR 4th level spell. Your character can roll around with this too. Maybe purchase a wand with a few charges that a cleric with the magic domain or a warmage or wizard can activate freely if you have them in your party. Even 1 level in these classes will do for wand activation. Actually casting it is cheaper of course.

Fist of Stone might combo well with your True Strike if you are able to add it to your list. Alternatively your allies might want to learn it if they are doing STR-based damage.

Cheap Items that might help:

Masterwork daggers for a two weapon fighter. Throw them. DEX+BAB+1 to hit, 1d4+STR to damage. Make them silver and each hit ignores DR. You can also melee with them.
Also look at alchemical silvering the weapons that your party uses.
Belt of Healing 750 gp for each party member that is not using the belt slot would be pretty good at getting around Aura of Retribution for a while.
Also consider 1 fully charged level 1 caster magic missile wand for each party member that can active them. 750 gp each for fifty charges and if four of you can activate them you have a decent shot at overcoming SR with at least some of them at range. Wield the wand in your off hand or in wand chambers on your weapon or shield.

[bjoern]

If you are the only source of damage in your party that can reliably overcome DR 5 at level 7 what other classes are you adventuring with?

I am assuming that there is no wizard
A paladin should be able to do it by default with even moderately good stats at this level and Extra Smite is very much a feat to lean on.
A warlock can ignore the DR with his class features
A barbarian can rage and overcome DR even with moderate stats
A cleric should be able to buff your party members enough to overcome DR reliably or switch to damaging or crowd control spells.
A druid should be able to crowd control and buff allies with spells or wild shape and cut through your opponents personally.
A fighter at level seven should always be doing over 5 damage a hit even with suboptimal feats.
A monk should be able to overcome DR with combat-oriented feats and if not, grappling is an option.
A ranger should have evil outsider as a favored enemy if you are fighting them regularly and has enough attacks to bring this to bear with either combat tree.
A rogue/ninja should have enough dice with sneak attack or sudden strike to regularly overcome DR.
A warmage should be able to tear through them individually next level with an Orb of Sound or Orb of Force. No SR 4th level spell. Your character can roll around with this too. Maybe purchase a wand with a few charges that a cleric with the magic domain or a warmage or wizard can activate freely if you have them in your party. Even 1 level in these classes will do for wand activation. Actually casting it is cheaper of course.

Fist of Stone might combo well with your True Strike if you are able to add it to your list. Alternatively your allies might want to learn it if they are doing STR-based damage.

Cheap Items that might help:

Masterwork daggers for a two weapon fighter. Throw them. DEX+BAB+1 to hit, 1d4+STR to damage. Make them silver and each hit ignores DR. You can also melee with them.
Also look at alchemical silvering the weapons that your party uses.
Belt of Healing 750 gp for each party member that is not using the belt slot would be pretty good at getting around Aura of Retribution for a while.
Also consider 1 fully charged level 1 caster magic missile wand for each party member that can active them. 750 gp each for fifty charges and if four of you can activate them you have a decent shot at overcoming SR with at least some of them at range. Wield the wand in your off hand or in wand chambers on your weapon or shield.

A 100% unoptomized group.
A cleric that can only do 1d10+1 damage. I talked to him about grabbing some different spells to help himself become a tank.

An illsuionist who doesn't deal any damage

A skillmonkey who does either 1d4 or 1d6 damage (that's it) he's going to take knowledge devotion next level

A halfling outrider that does 1d10+3 melee or 1d8+3 range 30'

I think the cure all here is to grab some plain-jane cold iron/silver weapons and ammo. Its cheap and basically adds 5damage to every attack. Which is over half of what they would be doing now. For myself, MM has been working. I think next level, I'll grab Vortex of Teeth (wings of flurrys 30' range would suck with the 30' aura of retrubution) and BFC the guys into the vortex with a sculpted grease, glitter dust , or black tentacles. I don't have Web. Its a good spell with a large area but its vulnerability to fire puts me off. Kinda glass cannonish. None of the enemies have had balance so far so a larger grease (from sculpt) would work I think.

[Curbstomp]

A few thoughts that would help your party, some easy, some a bit build-intensive:

Mundane or Masterwork Silver Items will be a huge help as you stated.

Tell your Outrider to pick up a lance. (1d8+3)x2 is going to roll thru DR easily and if it is of the right material get in 1-hit-1-kill range.

As you mentioned Knowledge Devotion will help the skill monkey. You might want to suggest Swashbuckler for 3 levels or Factotum for about the same. Swashbuckler will allow him to apply INT to damage regularly and Factotum will allow him to apply INT to hit and damage at least occasionally.

Your Illusionist should probably pick up some battlefield control or the ability to trick opponents into hurting each other if he wants to stay away from actual damaging spells. Shadow Conjurations can also work quite nicely. Hail of Stone is pretty good at low level for a single spell to learn even though it's not an illusion.

Your cleric just needs to pick better spells. :smalltongue:

Regardless, I hope that you have fun!