Divination Wizard + Lucky Feat + Save or Suck spells.... Discuss

[Bellberith]

as title, Divination wizard can change any 2 (goes up to 3) rolls that he makes or any creature within his sight makes. lucky can give advantage / disadvantage 3/long rest....

combine these 2 with save or suck spells..... and between them you can just kill almost anything you want....

*casts save or die*... and oh yea, you fail.

thoughts?

[Stan]

It's powerful but not perfect. Portent relies on you happening to roll especially good or especially bad rolls at the beginning of the day. Luck is definitely a great feat. But it looks like Luck can affect others only to modify the roll of someone attacking you.

Save or die is also slightly nerfed because the top tier monsters have a handful of autosaves.

[TheOOB]

The divination ability is good, but you could just as easily get two good(or average) rolls instead of two poor ones. Lucky only lets you change your rolls, or an attack roll against you, so it has no application in this context. Further, there are very few save or die/save or lose spells, as most really bad spells allow a new save every round, and if you're targeting a bad save they're likely going to fail anyways.

So basically, it just boils down to spells being pretty good.

[Symphony]

as title, Divination wizard can change any 2 (goes up to 3) rolls that he makes or any creature within his sight makes. lucky can give advantage / disadvantage 3/long rest....

combine these 2 with save or suck spells..... and between them you can just kill almost anything you want....

*casts save or die*... and oh yea, you fail.

thoughts?

For Lucky, the only type of opposing roll it allows you to influence is attack rolls against you.

For Portent, there are three basic categories of rolls. A low roll is perfect for causing the enemy to fail a saving throw. But high rolls and middling rolls aren't.

So yeah, Portent does give you a chance to basically force your target to fail their saving throw, but it's kinda unreliable.

Edit: Wow, that was late.

[Human Paragon 3]

Sounds good, but what save or die spells? I don't think there are any. And most save or suck are concentration, so you could spend a bunch of your daily resources to make sure someone succumbs to say, a web, then get hit with an arrow on the next action and lose your spell.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Using Portent right?

Well presuming the dice gods like you, thus can give you a good roll and a bad roll you once a day have a much stronger chance of landing that Plane Shift attack then having them fail the save. You can "mission kill" exactly one hostile a day with much improved odds. Presuming the DM has been nice enough to let you have proper materials for that spell (not really a good assumption anymore) and your opponent is not something where sending them to the Nine Hells or wherever isn't likely to see them come back now with diabolic allies or whatever.

I'm as yet aware of any other spells more reliable then Plane Shift for this. Course you only get one so better make it count. Flesh to Stone takes three but needs you to Concentrate its whole duration to not wear off. Banishment, Otiluke's Hamster Ball (seriously you can roll it now) and some others can sideline an enemy so are great for divide and conquer but don't kill opponents. Many other things allow multiple saves a la Hold Person. Concentration tends to mean its all you'll do so you won't be doing two save-or-whatevers unless you fail the first time. And the BBEG can chances are simply choose to ignore it with their Legenday Plot Armor anyways.

So good but not great.

Oh umm but Lucky doesn't give advantage/disadvantage. It gives a very similar personal effect to advantage so helps you with attack rolls for spells and making saving throws but doesn't do a damn thing to your opponents.

[Surrealistik]

Portent would be a lot better if the monsters you most want to fail a save or suck/die couldn't decide to arbitrarily autosave.

[Malifice]

Portent would be a lot better if the monsters you most want to fail a save or suck/die couldn't decide to arbitrarily autosave.

Yeah, but its a nice option for your 4th spell. Soften them up with a few first (from yourself and other casters/ or martial manouvers). Then hit them with the auto suck diviner ability.

[Arzanyos]

What if they don't blow their legendary resistance on the first three saves they make?

[Malifice]

What if they don't blow their legendary resistance on the first three saves they make?

I reckon a high level party will be spamming a lot of save related effects at legendary creatures, just due to the nature of high level parties. By the second or third round it will have probably burnt through them and become vulnerable to SoS spells.

Which I like for the record. It makes anticlimatic BBEG fights a thing of the past. They are going to get a few rounds (including legendary actions) to hammer the PC's.

Now if we could only have a saving throw for Forcecage...

[Arzanyos]

Saving throw for Forcecage. Isn't that called ranged attacks?

Also, yes, a lot of Save related effects will be thrown around. But for a lot of them, the BBEG will just make their save normally. And for others, they'll just decide they can take they hit. They can save their legendary resistance for the really big effects.

[Malifice]

Saving throw for Forcecage. Isn't that called ranged attacks?.

Yeah. Unless its the walled variety. Just a bit anticlimatic if the BBEG keeps getting Forcecaged though.

Spell really needs a Dex save (at disadvantage even) to avoid.

[Arzanyos]

Well, if it's the walled variety, then how do you deal with the BBEG? Your attacks can't get through it any more than his can.

[Malifice]

Well, if it's the walled variety, then how do you deal with the BBEG? Your attacks can't get through it any more than his can.

You have an hour to plan. Or Gate in reinforcements.

And not all BBEG's have decent ranged attacks. Forcecage + Cloudkill is still a combo that works 95 percent of the time.

[Arzanyos]

Forcecage lasts up to an hour? Also, all three of those spells you listed require concentration. And, what are the odds that you have a powerful friendly outsider on speed dial?

[Eslin]

All this is completely unnecessary once you get contagion. Contagion means they save and suck anyway, since it immediately applies and they have to save 3 times to get rid of that, on disadvantage, and spend the whole time stunned. Almost none of the enemies we've seen so far are immune to disease - none of this searching for ways to make the enemy fail the save is necessary, there exists a spell to do all this for you.

[Malifice]

Forcecage lasts up to an hour?

Yes. Its a 1 Hour duration with no save and no concentration.

Check out Cloudkill or Incendary Cloud for a good follow up spell.

95% of the time its an autowin button.

[Arzanyos]

How do you put the cloud inside the airtight forcecage?

[Surrealistik]

AoE persisting autodamage spell followed up by a Wall of Force (hemisphere) will deal nicely with most BBEGs, autosaves or not, and won't even cost you expensive components!

Sure it'll probably require two party members, but it's still a win button.

[Malifice]

How do you put the cloud inside the airtight forcecage?

You create the cage with bars in that case.

Read the spell.

Very few monsters have ranged attacks to fling out at you, and even then they only get one before you douse them in coudkill and walk away to let the Cloudkill finish the job for you.

There is no save against the Forcecage, and Cloudkill is save for half. Every single round.

[Soras Teva Gee]

And not all BBEG's have decent ranged attacks. Forcecage + Cloudkill is still a combo that works 95 percent of the time.

OMG average of 22.5 poison damage save for half for like 2 rounds at best... such a devastating spell that Cloudkill.
No worse then anything else if you cast the barred cage version though I suppose.

Also while it works expecting anything important you are facing at 13th level and up to not have access to exits is always mighty big assumption when there's a second level teleportation spell and things like shadow monks. Plus since there's potions of flying potions of gaseous form seem reasonable to bet on existing for the barred one.

[Surrealistik]

Teleportation may be reasonably common later on, but I expect there will still be plenty of creatures that don't have it. Further, most mob teleportation requires line of sight. Something like Cloudkill or Hunger of Hadar would work nicely to prevent it therefore while simultaneously dealing autodamage, leaving Disintegrate, Antimagic Shell and specific forms of teleportation as the only counters.

Meanwhile Wall of Force you get fairly early and at that point, there isn't much that can teleport, while it also prevents escape by turning into gas and costs nothing.

[Malifice]

OMG average of 22.5 poison damage save for half for like 2 rounds at best... such a devastating spell that Cloudkill.

Cloudkill does 5d8 poison damage a round for 10 minutes (100 rounds).

Save for half every round.

It also provides heavy obscurement, meaning after you cast it you walk away and cant be targetted by the creature trapped in the forcecage. Who is now copping 5d8 poison damage (save for half) per round for 100 rounds.

Quite easy to trap in a fixed area with any of the 'wall of x' spells. That is, if you dont want to move around the cloud keeping it fixed in place.

Where are you getting this 'two rounds' from?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Cloudkill does 5d8 poison damage a round for 10 minutes (100 rounds).

Save for half every round.

It also provides heavy obscurement, meaning after you cast it you walk away and cant be targetted by the creature trapped in the forcecage. Who is now copping 5d8 poison damage (save for half) per round for 100 rounds.

Quite easy to trap in a fixed area with any of the 'wall of x' spells. That is, if you dont want to move around the cloud keeping it fixed in place.

Where are you getting this 'two rounds' from?

Are you not aware that Cloudkill moves 10 ft away from you each round?

I made a small mistake before as I thought it was a 20 ft across not radius but that still means at worst 4 rounds for 40 feet across at 10 feet a round if someone can't you know... move out of it early. You want Forcecage you better be careful on your dimensions.

Bottling it up is a purely hypothetical move, like arguing fireball should reach farther in a confined space like a hallway. Neato if your DM wants to model that, if not SOL.

Of course if your playing off the system like that like you'll still need to argue whatever "bottle" you construct is both open mouthed to let the cloud in but when it meets the obstruction the cloud doesn't back up and flow around the entrance to your bottle. So you'll definitely need to at least catch that entire 40' across sphere somehow or its already leaking. Heaven help you on say issues like permeable soils or the like.

As Billy Borden explained to Harry Dresden about that Fireball not roasting the wizard's barbarian, such things waste time and are a pain in the butt.

You WON'T be doing it with Wall of X series though I'll tell you that. Even if they meet the dimensions needed. You and another caster you might, but not you.

Now you pull that off neat trick but you shouldn't be arguing it like its something every DM is going to care about enough to do for you.

[Malifice]

Are you not aware that Cloudkill moves 10 ft away from you each round?

Not an issue in most dungeons where I can simply close the door (and block the gaps), or if I have access to any of the 'Wall of x' spells to lock it in place around the forcecaged monster.

Cast Force cage. Next round cast Wall of Stone around the trapped creature to provide you with total cover and to enclose the gas (and concentrate for 10 minutes to make it permanent). Then cast Cloudkill. Concentrate for 100 rounds doing 500d8 poison damage (save for half).

Also, seeing as the Wizard can move around the cloudkill (which provides him with total concealment), circling the effect, its movement isnt all that relevant. He can keep it more or less centered on the Forcecage simply by circling it.

Its an enounter ender with little chance for around 95% of creatures to survive. Legendary creature or not.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Cast Force cage. Next round cast Wall of Stone around the trapped creature to provide you with total cover and to enclose the gas (and concentrate for 10 minutes to make it permanent). Then cast Cloudkill. Concentrate for 100 rounds doing 500d8 poison damage (save for half).


You made 10 minutes of Concentration checks against ranged attacks to for a permanent Wall of Stone before casting Cloudkill?

If your opponent didn't have them then at all and couldn't get out in all that time then you wasted your spell slots badly not simply shooting it to death with cantrips.

Never mind counting on the DM deciding oh yeah my enclosed space is totally airtight and yeah that spell just backs up instead of just vanishing because its blocked or doesn't in its push to advance totally fill out and back wash.

[Malifice]

You made 10 minutes of Concentration checks against ranged attacks to for a permanent Wall of Stone before casting Cloudkill?

What? Wall of Stone takes 1 action to cast.

Why on earth do I need to make '10 minutes of concentration checks' whatver they are?

Do you want me to make a diagram for you with a Forcecaged creature in the middle of a wall of stone completely enclosing them (barring a hole in the roof)?

Round 1: Forcecage.
Round 2: Wall of Stone
10 minutes later
Cast Cloudkill.
Laugh maniacally.

Better yet (for those of us with Fighter 2 dips and who are worried about the idiot in the cage retaliating in the 1 round before you encase him in a ring of stone:

Action Surge: Forcecage/ Wall of Stone.
Wait 10 minutes.
Cast Cloudkill.
Laugh maniacally.


If your opponent didn't have them then at all and couldn't get out in all that time then you wasted your spell slots badly not simply shooting it to death with cantrips.

Pegging them with cantrips is another option (for Forcecaged BBEGS that forgot a ranged weapon)


Never mind counting on the DM deciding oh yeah my enclosed space is totally airtight and yeah that spell just backs up instead of just vanishing because its blocked or doesn't in its push to advance totally fill out and back wash.

Read Wall of Stone. And Cloudkill.

Unless the Cloud (which is heavier than air) can get under the Wall of Stone somehow, then youre golden.

Why the **** are you arguing this with me anyway? I didnt write the damn broken spell.

The point was it doesnt matter what your saving throws are, whether he is a diviner or has the lucky feat.

Against a prepared 13th level Wizard, barring you having a way out of the cage, you lose.

[Mr.Moron]

Not an issue in most dungeons where I can simply close the door (and block the gaps), or if I have access to any of the 'Wall of x' spells to lock it in place around the forcecaged monster.

Cast Force cage. Next round cast Wall of Stone around the trapped creature to provide you with total cover and to enclose the gas (and concentrate for 10 minutes to make it permanent). Then cast Cloudkill. Concentrate for 100 rounds doing 500d8 poison damage (save for half).

Also, seeing as the Wizard can move around the cloudkill (which provides him with total concealment), circling the effect, its movement isnt all that relevant. He can keep it more or less centered on the Forcecage simply by circling it.

Its an enounter ender with little chance for around 95% of creatures to survive. Legendary creature or not.

OK. So you've found some things you think are degenerate. That's a problem! What would you purpose as solutions? Any tweaks to the monster, casting or action rules? Maybe something along the tweaks to the spell entries themselves? Soft Bans, Hard Bans, Arms Race?

I'll be running a game soon and I'm always wary of these sorts of stuff. I generally take something of a broad soft-ban and modify spells approach myself. Do you think there is anything more elegant than that?

[Theodoxus]

Eh, it's a 7th level spell, so unless you're willing to spend your 8th and 9th spell slots on Forcecage, it's a once a day option. You better pick your target appropriately.

The area (especially the caged variety) is too large to make a ranged spell attack reasonable. To nerf the spell somewhat - or at least make sure the caster is really determined to use it - make the M component consumed when the spell is cast. 1500gp in ruby dust is prohibitive even at 13th level.

[hawklost]

What? Wall of Stone takes 1 action to cast.

Why on earth do I need to make '10 minutes of concentration checks' whatver they are?

Do you want me to make a diagram for you with a Forcecaged creature in the middle of a wall of stone completely enclosing them (barring a hole in the roof)?

Round 1: Forcecage.
Round 2: Wall of Stone
10 minutes later
Cast Cloudkill.
Laugh maniacally.

Better yet (for those of us with Fighter 2 dips and who are worried about the idiot in the cage retaliating in the 1 round before you encase him in a ring of stone:

Action Surge: Forcecage/ Wall of Stone.
Wait 10 minutes.
Cast Cloudkill.
Laugh maniacally.



Pegging them with cantrips is another option (for Forcecaged BBEGS that forgot a ranged weapon)


ForceCage - Concentration
Wall of Stone - Concentration

So, in your wonderful casting you get this

Round 1 - Force Cage appears
Round 2 - ForceCage Disappears (lose concentration) Wall of Stone Appears (Enemy gets save since he will be trapped, read the spells)
Round 3- Assuming the enemy is still behind your wall of stone. Wall Disappears since Concentration, cast Cloud Kill, enemy walks up to you and slaps you for your characters stupidity on the castings

What exactly did you accomplish with using 3 concentration spells?

Your tactic would fail on multiple levels.
-First, you cast 3 Concentration spells with the assumption that those spells would all somehow not dissipate when you lost concentration
-Second, Even if you have 3 casts to cast those, you put them in the wrong order, once the Wall is up, you cannot see your target. If you try to claim that you cast Cloud Kill above the wall while the person is in the cage so that it falls down since it is heavier than air, they would only have to claim something equally silly like they grab the Force Cage's upper bars (which are barely wipe enough) and hold themselves off the ground for 10 minutes.
-Third, If you cannot hold the Cage, they can bust a small hole in the Wall and the Cloud will disappear through it in 2-3 rounds. You might want to look at how thick you can even make that wall because most people or BBEGs could easily destroy its small thickness. Or they can just jump over it if it is in the open.

[ambartanen]

The spell components of Force Cage are 1500 gold pieces worth of ruby dust, presumably consumed on casting. Seems like even a high level group needs to run a special adventure to collect the ingredients for a single casting not to mention needing to learn the spell in the first place.

[Soras Teva Gee]

What? Wall of Stone takes 1 action to cast.

Why on earth do I need to make '10 minutes of concentration checks' whatver they are?

Do you want me to make a diagram for you with a Forcecaged creature in the middle of a wall of stone completely enclosing them (barring a hole in the roof)?

Because you're enemy just sits there then?

If you enclose them how does the gas get in? If you leave a hole in the roof the gas flows right back out of that hole like water overflowing a filled container except as a magical gas cloud of defined dimensions it would logically siphon all the gas right back out as it moved on.

And a truly enterprising enemy might even attack the wall itself ten minutes is a lot of time to do 180 damage to a panel


Pegging them with cantrips is another option (for Forcecaged BBEGS that forgot a ranged weapon)

Its one that doesn't shoot your load of 5th level spells and should work on basically the same opponents


Read Wall of Stone. And Cloudkill.

Unless the Cloud (which is heavier than air) can get under the Wall of Stone somehow, then youre golden.

If portions of the cloud also didn't go up it could never get to your hole on the roof would it? Indeed since its a sphere any point higher then its origin should stop it dead because its sloping away but according to your interpretation it wouldn't be able to flow up over the obstruction. Heck cast it on dirt and it "should" start sinking, dirt isn't exactly airtight. Obviously because its a magical cloud it instead follows its whole behavior and thus can move up if it needs to keep its arbitrary magical shape. Much simpler and really more sensible because you know... magic cloud.

So by the same motion it would suck all the mist right back out of the hole as it spread around the 'corner' that is the hole. And nothing enables you to reduce the cloud's volume either. You'd "should" get no extension of the effect unless you can stop the entire cloud's motion. That's a tall shaping order especially since apparently you're playing with Legos not Play-Doh and "can't occupy the same space as a creature or object" heck I think a narrow reading of "must, however, merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone" might be read as that you can only use it when you have stone around.

This on the whole requires such hypothetical unofficial insertions to the rules, it is thus purely DM discretion at best.


Why the **** are you arguing this with me anyway? I didnt write the damn broken spell.

Well you kinda did adding a completely unsupported capability to trap Cloudkill. They didn't tell you you could so its unsupported, thus DM discretion if it works. DM can say "nah the spell just ends if it can't move forward" or "you didn't trap the gas" or "turns out there was a leak in the trap because your not a master craftsman" or "yeah that works, they die" all with equal justice.

I'm not even sure its all that broken using a novel interpretation of your 7th and all your 5th level spells combined in a manner the DM either finds clever and allows into the game, or doesn't and it flops. Anyways unless your 18th level you've shot half of the upper end of your spell slots for the day on a single group of targets. If it is well, going off the map like that you can't really expect things to operate with anything like balance.

My problem is your acting like your clever/dirty trick is how its "supposed" to work and not an improvisation and expansion of the rules.

If you by chance mean just Forcecage you have a better case, I'm still half convinced errata will get around to adding it consumes the material component or its Concentration Though at worst the DM could still remove the spell by never letting the particular ingredients be available. But still one area a day is basically begging to be tactically exploited or Counterspelled.

[Malifice]

ForceCage - Concentration


No its not. Take a deep breath, pick up your PHB and read Forcecage.

Duration: 1 hour.

[Malifice]

Because you're enemy just sits there then?

Yeah. Thats what Forcecage does.


If you enclose them how does the gas get in? If you leave a hole in the roof the gas flows right back out of that hole like water overflowing a filled container except as a magical gas cloud of defined dimensions it would logically siphon all the gas right back out as it moved on.

Now youre just being silly.

Cloudkill expressly states it is heavier than air. I.e it sinks.

Maybe in your strange world, the gas rises over the top of the walls of a Wall of Stone despite being heavier than air, but hey.


And a truly enterprising enemy might even attack the wall itself ten minutes is a lot of time to do 180 damage to a panel

What with? Arrows?

How on earth are arrows going to damage a Stone Wall?


If portions of the cloud also didn't go up it could never get to your hole on the roof would it? Indeed since its a sphere any point higher then its origin should stop it dead because its sloping away but according to your interpretation it wouldn't be able to flow up over the obstruction. Heck cast it on dirt and it "should" start sinking, dirt isn't exactly airtight. Obviously because its a magical cloud it instead follows its whole behavior and thus can move up if it needs to keep its arbitrary magical shape. Much simpler and really more sensible because you know... magic cloud.

Am I going to have to draw a diagram for you?


This on the whole requires such hypothetical unofficial insertions to the rules, it is thus purely DM discretion at best.

No, It does not.

Creature inside a barred Forcecage, completely surrounded by a Wall of Stone.

Caster casts a Cloudkill inside the wall of stone (levitating or climbing up the sides).

How are you finding this hard to understand?

And why are you arguing this?


Well you kinda did adding a completely unsupported capability to trap Cloudkill. They didn't tell you you could so its unsupported, thus DM discretion if it works. DM can say "nah the spell just ends if it can't move forward" or "you didn't trap the gas" or "turns out there was a leak in the trap because your not a master craftsman" or "yeah that works, they die" all with equal justice.

Assume a caster can move 60' a round. He can simply cast Cloudkill and walking clockwise around the cloud keep it in place for the entire duration.

It moves 10' away from him every round. He can easily reach a cardinal point at 90 degrees every round, keeping the forcecage completely obscured without the wall of stone (moving the cloudkill 10' N, E, S then W, then repeating.


My problem is your acting like your clever/dirty trick is how its "supposed" to work and not an improvisation and expansion of the rules.

Im sorry to break it to you, but Forcecage/ Cloudkill is how its supposed to work.

Players have been pulling this exact trick off for over 30 years in all editions of DnD (barring 4th edition).

Google it.

[Malifice]

I have no idea why people are arguing Forcecage is not an encounter smasher?

1 Hour duration, no save, no concentration. Legendary creature or not. Virtually no way to get out of the cage, and no way to damage it.

Any creature less than 20 foot on a side is trapped. No save. They can attempt to teleport out, but they only get one shot (and a charisma save). They fail and theyre in there for an hour.

They then better have immunity to poison damage (or fire damage if incendiary cloud is used) because theyre about to get gassed to death.

If they dont have a ranged attack, they get cantripped to death instead.

I didnt write the damn spell, and I would like to see it nerfed quite frankly.

[hawklost]

No its not. Take a deep breath, pick up your PHB and read Forcecage.

Duration: 1 hour.

eh, miss read the spell. Now since you ignore everything else in the comment. Your caster still fails. He cannot hold 2 concentration spells

If he feels like holding the Wall of Stone for 10 minutes before he casts his Cloud that is one thing, but if he tries to do it quickly he will fail.

Lets say you give the enemy 10 minutes before you bother casting Cloud Kill. Lets look at the numbers

6 inches thick at 30 hp per inch for each section gives your wall 180 hp with AC 15. We can assume the creature/people will have at least a +4 to attack then.

If the wall was in 5 feet of the people in the cage, they can hit it each round with anything smaller than a half inch thick (note Arrows are less than that and so are most swords). since there is no such thing as hardness, they need to do 1.8 damage per round to destroy a wall section (They do have 100 rounds to do it). The only issue would be if they ran out of ammunition since a sword would succeed every time and never gets worn down thanks to magic of dnd. By the RAW, the ranged attack would probably be considered against 3/4th cover but that only increases the AC, it does not stop an attack. You are even worse off against a single person with any attack cantrip as they will definitely be able to punch through it and not run out of ammo.

So, even if you hold your spell for the 10 minutes, you will have a huge hole in your wall (whole section collapses as per Wall of Stone spell description). your Cloud Kill now only hits them for a few rounds at best.


............
What with? Arrows?

How on earth are arrows going to damage a Stone Wall?
..............
Welcome to DnD, reality need not visit. By the rules, yes, an Arrow can damage a wall (specifically Wall of Stone as it calls out its HP and AC). Sorry, but you have to reinterpret the rules to not have something damage the wall.



.....
Any creature less than 20 foot on a side is trapped. No save. They can attempt to teleport out, but they only get one shot (and a charisma save). They fail and theyre in there for an hour.
......

That is a single interpretation of the spell reading. You could also interpret as meaning they can't get out that round and loses its spell but can try again the next round. Nothing in the spell states you are stuck there until the end if you have a magical way to attempt to escape.

Scenario: Creature uses Teleport inside the cage and fails. It can't get out
Creature uses another Teleport. It gets a second chance to escape with another Cha check.

Its just like any other spell effect. If I fail the spell, If I cast the spell again, I can succeed.

[Malifice]

If the wall was in 5 feet of the people in the cage, they can hit it each round with anything smaller than a half inch thick (note Arrows are less than that and so are most swords). since there is no such thing as hardness, they need to do 1.8 damage per round to destroy a wall section (They do have 100 rounds to do it). The only issue would be if they ran out of ammunition since a sword would succeed every time and never gets worn down thanks to magic of dnd. By the RAW, the ranged attack would probably be considered against 3/4th cover but that only increases the AC, it does not stop an attack. You are even worse off against a single person with any attack cantrip as they will definitely be able to punch through it and not run out of ammo.

Check the rules for 'damaging an object in the PHB'. It expressly states that certain attacks simply cant damage certain objects.

Go buy yourself a bow. Fire a million arrows at a stone wall. Come back to me if the wall collapses, or is in anyway breached by your million arrow volley.

Also, see above. You dont even need a wall of stone. You can simply cast cloudkill and walk in a circle ending each turn at 90 degrees from the cage. The cage stays completely covered by the CK and you stay 100 concealed.

[Malifice]

Welcome to DnD, reality need not visit. By the rules, yes, an Arrow can damage a wall (specifically Wall of Stone as it calls out its HP and AC). Sorry, but you have to reinterpret the rules to not have something damage the wall.

Read the rules before citing them. The DM is free to decide that certain objects are immune or resistant to certain types of attacks.

Again; fire a million arrows at a castle wall and come back to me with your results.

[JohnDaBarr]

Just a thought. Disintegrate the floor under someone, cast grease and set it on fire or whatever. Old trick but should work most of the time.

[hawklost]

Read the rules before citing them. The DM is free to decide that certain objects are immune or resistant to certain types of attacks.

Again; fire a million arrows at a castle wall and come back to me with your results.

DM deciding something is purely different than claiming it cannot be done. You are now saying "DMs can decide this so it will always work!" which is wrong. If 2 DMs can read the RAW and interpret it differently, then claiming it is always true is BS.

Also, I can bet you if I fired a million arrows at a castle wall (and can hit the same rock each time) that it would be heavily chipped, it would probably even be damaged since a Steel is more powerful then Stone and breaks it each time. It might not knock down the whole wall, but then again, that is reality and this is DnD.

Here, since you only ever say 'read the rules' but cannot take the time to quote from a Free PDF of them.


"Objects are immune to poison and
psychic damage, but otherwise they can be affected
by physical and magical attacks much like creatures
can. The DM determines an object’s Armor Class and
hit points, and might decide that certain objects have
resistance or immunity to certain kinds of attacks. (It’s
hard to cut a rope with a club, for example.)"


So, we will give the wall Resistance to steel tipped arrows because the player points out that Steel is harder than Stone (hey, you are pulling in RL logic to win, so we will do the same). Now we have to get 3.6 damage per round to be able to do enough damage. Assuming an archer does 1d8+5 per round in that case, he will do an average of 9.5 or 4.75 damage per round. Yup, still can break that wall in 10 minutes if he has 100 arrows.

You have arbitrarily decided how your DM would react to give yourself the 'win' in this argument. You are deciding it because if the decision (which is purely up to each and every DM thanks to the RAW explicitly saying so) was differently your claim is wrong and you are wrong then.

Now for your last claim of walking around. Yup, that will keep the the cloud in the box. Lets look at flaws there. You are now within sight of the enemy, hope he doesn't have cantrips or other abilities to shoot you or you have to use Concentration every single round (or more if it is a Fighter shooting you with multiple arrows a round). A Single Ray of Frost hit will destroy your whole plan.

EDIT:

Read the rules before citing them. The DM is free to decide that certain objects are immune or resistant to certain types of attacks.

Again; fire a million arrows at a castle wall and come back to me with your results.
Yup, but if you are DM and doing this to your players that is one thing. If on the other hand you are a player, you are assuming your DM will give you all these little things just so your spell works. If you are going to claim something is purely broken and then say 'well, if the DM rules in my favor' you kind of ruin your argument.

[Malifice]

Also, I can bet you if I fired a million arrows at a castle wall (and can hit the same rock each time) that it would be heavily chipped,

So.. your forcecaged monster (assuming he had a million arrows, and the time to fire them all at the same stone, hitting the same stone despite the 100 percent conealment of the Cloudkill) would only chip it?

Glad we're in agreement.


So, we will give the wall Resistance to steel tipped arrows because the player points out that Steel is harder than Stone (hey, you are pulling in RL logic to win, so we will do the same). Now we have to get 3.6 damage per round to be able to do enough damage. Assuming an archer does 1d8+5 per round in that case, he will do an average of 9.5 or 4.75 damage per round. Yup, still can break that wall in 10 minutes if he has 100 arrows.

Assuming he has 100 arrows, AND can hit the same bit of the wall despite total concealment, AND the arrows are ruled to actually be able to damage a stone wall (doubtful unless your seiges are over pretty damn quickly and without the aid of seige weapons) AND he has a stat modifier of +5, it takes him on average 36 rounds to do the 180 damage to the wall.

He only takes 180d8 poison damage before he gets through the wall. Even assuming all the above.


You have arbitrarily decided how your DM would react to give yourself the 'win' in this argument. You are deciding it because if the decision (which is purely up to each and every DM thanks to the RAW explicitly saying so) was differently your claim is wrong and you are wrong then.

Im not arbitrarily deciding anything. Im suggesting (what you acknowledge above, and what the rules are clear on) that certain attacks simply cant damage certain objects.

One of us is being obtuse here, and it isnt me.


Now for your last claim of walking around. Yup, that will keep the the cloud in the box. Lets look at flaws there. You are now within sight of the enemy, hope he doesn't have cantrips or other abilities to shoot you or you have to use Concentration every single round (or more if it is a Fighter shooting you with multiple arrows a round). A Single Ray of Frost hit will destroy your whole plan.

Sigh. Read Cloudkill. The enemy cant see me at all. The cloud obscures vision.


Yup, but if you are DM and doing this to your players that is one thing. If on the other hand you are a player, you are assuming your DM will give you all these little things just so your spell works. If you are going to claim something is purely broken and then say 'well, if the DM rules in my favor' you kind of ruin your argument.

Im sorry, what 'rules' do I need in my favor? Im not twisting any rules at all! Youre the one making some kind of weird assertion that arrows can demolish a stone wall in 10 minutes, and not reading the rules correctly.

Im pointing out a deadly and hard to stop combo that has existed since ADandD.

You need to chill out brother.

[pwykersotz]

Okay, so Forcecage lasts an hour...Wall of Stone around a Forcecage won't allow the trapped creature to make a save to run out, wait for the Wall to be permanent after 10 minutes, then use Cloudkill. Seems like a solid tactic.

It'll be interesting to see how many creatures it affects. Out of what we've seen, there are only three creatures above 14th Challenge. The Planetar, the Pit Fiend, and the Adult or older dragons. The Pit Fiend is immune to poison, so that's out. The Planetar is vulnerable to this tactic, assuming it's not flying. The dragons might be ruled as too large to fit in a forcecage. Their space needed to battle is 15x15, but they could be as tall/long as 32 feet (I think?), allowing them to be pushed out of the cage.

[Malifice]

Okay, so Forcecage lasts an hour...Wall of Stone around a Forcecage won't allow the trapped creature to make a save to run out, wait for the Wall to be permanent after 10 minutes, then use Cloudkill. Seems like a solid tactic.

It'll be interesting to see how many creatures it affects. Out of what we've seen, there are only three creatures above 14th Challenge. The Planetar, the Pit Fiend, and the Adult or older dragons. The Pit Fiend is immune to poison, so that's out. The Planetar is vulnerable to this tactic, assuming it's not flying. The dragons might be ruled as too large to fit in a forcecage. Their space needed to battle is 15x15, but they could be as tall/long as 32 feet (I think?), allowing them to be pushed out of the cage.

Yeah, it requires size (less than 20'), inability to teleport out, and vulnerable to poison attacks (or if high enough level fire attacks with incendiary cloud).

That alone limits its useability. Great when those three things are accounted for though.

[Kornaki]

Assuming he has 100 arrows, AND can hit the same bit of the wall despite total concealment, AND the arrows are ruled to actually be able to damage a stone wall (doubtful unless your seiges are over pretty damn quickly and without the aid of seige weapons) AND he has a stat modifier of +5, it takes him on average 36 rounds to do the 180 damage to the wall.

He only takes 180d8 poison damage before he gets through the wall. Even assuming all the above.


No, you haven't cast cloudkill yet because you're still waiting for wall of stone to become permanent.

[hawklost]

So.. your forcecaged monster (assuming he had a million arrows, and the time to fire them all at the same stone, hitting the same stone despite the 100 percent conealment of the Cloudkill) would only chip it?

Glad we're in agreement. Yes, we agree that a wall can be damaged by arrows firing at it. Glad you agree with that. Since that is the case and we are now going into DnD world where the characters are far superior to someone like me in firing, and get these things called Bonuses (you know the +1-5 for your stat) to damage, they should be able to go far and beyond the 1 pt or less of damage I do to the wall with my none dex and my lack of knowledge with a bow




Assuming he has 100 arrows, AND can hit the same bit of the wall despite total concealment, AND the arrows are ruled to actually be able to damage a stone wall (doubtful unless your seiges are over pretty damn quickly and without the aid of seige weapons) AND he has a stat modifier of +5, it takes him on average 36 rounds to do the 180 damage to the wall.

He only takes 180d8 poison damage before he gets through the wall. Even assuming all the above.


He takes no damage because you are still getting your wall up and solid, if you want to use your cloudkill spell, you have to drop your wall. And thanks to the wonders of DnD, he only has to hit a 10x10 section of your wall to break it. It someone cannot hit that even when it is obscured, that is a very impressive failure. It isn't moving and it cannot dodge.

So, in your 36 rounds, he needs to punch through a 10x10 ft area to have it magically fall (due to spell). It would have resistance since that is the new DR. So someone who is strong enough to be a threat to a caster would be able to break the wall down.

As for your "The caster can just walk around at 60 ft" you seem to assume (Like many others claiming Casters are Gods) the most adventagous cercumstances. Are we Sitting in an open plane? Nothing to make the caster to have difficulty to move around? So we cannot be in a forest, we cannot be in a rocky area, we cannot be in a cave, nor in a dungeon, we must be on a plains or desert (possibly not desert, sand might be considered difficult). So yes, when the caster is wandering around a plains where there is no difficult terrain, he can use 2 spells to kill the creature. Of course, as soon as he has to slow down for some reason, as soon as he gets hit and loses concentration(which is fully possible since invisibility only provides Dis to the attack and you can still listen for where he might be). He can pretend he has a god killer here.

Lets also hope he doesn't fight something with Resistance to Poison (or immune) and high constitution scores as well or they will take his cloud kill and kill him as soon as its over.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yup, but if you are DM and doing this to your players that is one thing. If on the other hand you are a player, you are assuming your DM will give you all these little things just so your spell works. If you are going to claim something is purely broken and then say 'well, if the DM rules in my favor' you kind of ruin your argument.

That's really the whole problem.

There some viability to this idea but it relies on purely hypothetical actions needing the DM to say "okay sure" to for it to work.

[hawklost]

That's really the whole problem.

There some viability to this idea but it relies on purely hypothetical actions needing the DM to say "okay sure" to for it to work.

Yes, and that is why I disagree with people claiming it is an ultimate combo.

If it requires a DM ruling because the rules specify that the DM must decide something (Like if Walls can be damaged by arrows) then it is only an ultimate combo if your DM allows it.

------ (Not targeting this at your Soras)----------

someone wants to say that in any campaign their DM it would be, that is fine. they want to say that in the campaign they are playing it is, that is also ok. But claiming it is in general and then having them show rules that require a DM to make a call (not even hint, but actually outright say DM makes a call) is just ridiculous.

[Malifice]

Yes, we agree that a wall can be damaged by arrows firing at it.

Actually were not. I wouldnt let a wall of stone be damaged by arrows.

Neither would most GM's I feel.

But each to their own.