snap kick again....

[j_spencer93]

this comes up everytime it is chosen, can yo use snap kick on atks of op

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes, why wouldn't you be able to?

You can snap kick any time you make a melee attack. Remember though that for the rest of the round you take -2 on all of your attacks. So if you make a snap kick on an AoO before your turn in the round you will end up with -2 on all attacks on your turn.

Similarly, if you make an AoO after you used Snap Kick on your turn then you still suffer the -2.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack.
When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus. This attack is an unarmed attack that deals damage equal to your base unarmed attack damage + 1/2 your Str bonus. You take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls you make this round.So I agree with Tippy.

[Red Fel]

this comes up everytime it is chosen, can yo use snap kick on atks of op

Read the qualifying language:
When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.(Emphasis added.)

Is your attack of opportunity a "melee attack with one or more melee weapons"? By RAW, it qualifies. It also makes other AoO feats (like Double Hit) embarassingly inferior.

Edit: And Swordsage'd.

[snailgosh]

I'd rule yes:

When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver)[...]
(emphasis mine)

including means not limited to, so any AoO made with a melee weapon qualifies.

swordsage'd hard

[Extra Anchovies]

Yes, why wouldn't you be able to?

You can snap kick any time you make a melee attack. Remember though that for the rest of the round you take -2 on all of your attacks. So if you make a snap kick on an AoO before your turn in the round you will end up with -2 on all attacks on your turn.

Similarly, if you make an AoO after you used Snap Kick on your turn then you still suffer the -2.

Two questions spring to mind from there:

1. Can you make multiple snap kicks per round? e.g. full attack+snap kick, AoO+snap kick, another AoO+snap kick

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, do the penalties stack, or is it a one-time penalty? e.g. using the above example, attacks made during full attack+snap kick would be at -2, but would the first AoO+snap kick be at -2 or -4, and would the second AoO+snap kick be at -2 or -6?

[j_spencer93]

Thank you, that is what i assume

[snailgosh]

Two questions spring to mind from there:

1. Can you make multiple snap kicks per round? e.g. full attack+snap kick, AoO+snap kick, another AoO+snap kick

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, do the penalties stack, or is it a one-time penalty? e.g. using the above example, attacks made during full attack+snap kick would be at -2, but would the first AoO+snap kick be at -2 or -4, and would the second AoO+snap kick be at -2 or -6?

I think you should be able to add a Snap Kick to every attack you do. The penalties will stack, as they are unnamed penalties.

Edit: Limited to one Snap Kick per attack routine of course. Snap Kick not stacking with itself was addressed somewhere, right?

[j_spencer93]

i thought the general consensus was that it only activated once per a chain of attacks, not attack + snap/attack + snap on a full attack

[Emperor Tippy]

Two questions spring to mind from there:

1. Can you make multiple snap kicks per round? e.g. full attack+snap kick, AoO+snap kick, another AoO+snap kick
Yes, it is why I don't use the feat on my Factotum/Monk generally.


2. If the answer to #1 is yes, do the penalties stack, or is it a one-time penalty? e.g. using the above example, attacks made during full attack+snap kick would be at -2, but would the first AoO+snap kick be at -2 or -4, and would the second AoO+snap kick be at -2 or -6?
Penalties always stack unless specifically stated otherwise.

[j_spencer93]

aw i see, i misunderstand what the above person said

[Extra Anchovies]

Yes, it is why I don't use the feat on my Factotum/Monk generally.

Penalties always stack unless specifically stated otherwise.

Thanks for answering my questions! (and also thank you to snailgosh)

I'm not all that familiar with the Factotum. Could you perhaps explain why Snap Kick doesn't work well with your particular build, if it wouldn't be too lengthy? I'm mostly just curious.

[Red Fel]

Actually, I'm not sure that you can make more than one Snap Kick per attack action. Consider the language:

When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus.
Two things jump out at me about that language. "When you make a melee attack" is modified by "including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver[.]" This suggests to me that "full attack" is considered "a melee attack" (as in, singular) for the purposes of Snap Kick, and therefore triggers only one Snap Kick. "When you make a melee attack" is also modified by the language "with one or more melee weapons[.]" I can think of no way to perform a single attack with more than one weapon. I just don't see how the mechanics support it. The language seems to count "with one or more melee weapons" as a single melee attack for purposes of Snap Kick. That would suggest, again, that a full attack triggers only one Snap Kick.
That said, an attack of opportunity is a distinct attack action from your full attack, so it would be theoretically possible to perform a full attack that gains Snap Kick, and one or more AoOs that get Snap Kick as well. And as Tippy notes, the penalties would stack.

But on a full attack, I'd rule that the language only supports one Snap Kick per full attack action, not one Snap Kick per attack within the full attack action.

[j_spencer93]

Ya that is how i understood it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Thanks for answering my questions! (and also thank you to snailgosh)

I'm not all that familiar with the Factotum. Could you perhaps explain why Snap Kick doesn't work well with your particular build, if it wouldn't be too lengthy? I'm mostly just curious.

The Decisive Strike alternate class feature from PHB2 replaces Flurry with an attack that takes a full round action and deals double damage to a foe, it also makes all other attacks for the rest of the round deal double damage until the start of your next turn.

Factotum 8 gets you Cunning Surge. Use it at the start of your turn for a Standard Action that you use to move within full attack range of your foe (use multiple if necessary) and then use your Full Round Action for a Decisive Strike. Now use Cunning Surge repeatedly to make double damage attacks at your full AB against the foe.

Grey Elf Rogue 1/ Monk 6/ Swashbuckler 3/ Factotum 8/ Swordsage 2 (or Exemplar 1/Mindbender 1) with Craven, Shadow Blade, Kung Fu Genius, and Faerie Mysteries Initiate. You are massively Int focused and are getting (potentially) a dozen attacks in a round at full AB that deal 2x(Dex+HD+Str+Int+Int+other static bonuses) damage each.

Snap Kick would double the number of attacks you can make at double damage but the AB would rapidly drop to basically non existent (as in you are only hitting anything on a natural 20).