Pathfinder + 3.X feats

[j_spencer93]

We are starting to add pathfinder feats (those that are easily adapted or simply work as written) to our list of available feats. As i am doing this i started to wonder if some of these were exactly fair. Will mixing these challenge the "power" of my players?

And would using their classes cause any problems? I actually do not want to do this but my players have asked for it a few times. THEY EXPLICITLY DO NOT WANT TO PLAY PATHFINDER.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder has some very nice feats you can bring into 3.5 - things like Shadow Strike, Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim (particularly if you tweak this to be more like 3.5 Power Attack), Coaxing Spell, Intensify Spell, their version of the Skill Focus feats, Cosmopolitan, Master Craftsman, and Preferred Spell.

As for feats to look out for - I think there are a few that might be too good, like Spell Perfection, the new Divine Protection feat, and Noble Scion. Also, watch out for Sacred Geometry and its pals.

[j_spencer93]

aw ok so it wouldnt be too bad. thanks. i will start finishing it tonight then. (side note found plenty of monk feats for my monk players)

[Dalebert]

for my monk players

Plural?? Is that a typo? If they're playing monks, I don't think you need to worry about some feats making them OP. :smallwink:

[j_spencer93]

Lol i have 3 players at the moment. Each using monk.
One is a level 12 monk/psionic warrior/diamond warrior who is stealing the show
another is a unarmed swordsage/monk/shadow sun ninja (?) based on ki feats
third is a kicking monk about to be introduced

And the feats changing power level thing was in general, not really about monks.

[animewatcha]

Pathfinder pummeling style so they can have pounce and still be monks.

[Snowbluff]

Pathfinder has some very nice feats you can bring into 3.5 - things like Shadow Strike, Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim (particularly if you tweak this to be more like 3.5 Power Attack), Coaxing Spell, Intensify Spell, their version of the Skill Focus feats, Cosmopolitan, Master Craftsman, and Preferred Spell.

As for feats to look out for - I think there are a few that might be too good, like Spell Perfection, the new Divine Protection feat, and Noble Scion. Also, watch out for Sacred Geometry and its pals.

As per usual, we are told that the feats that are in-line for 3.5, we shouldn't use. D:

Shadow Strike isn't good, because it should be redundant with your other abilities. The rule is pretty silly in the first place. Clustered Shot is only for people who don't know how to play archers (seriously, how did it get printed? Buy/make some better arrows).

Deadly aim is fine... if only a crutch for a play style that can do better. I'd use it, but you'd get more value out of feats like Knowledge Devotion and Law Devotion. :smalltongue:

[9mm]

seriously, how did it get printed? Buy/make some better arrows.


Because DR is the archer's bane.

[Psyren]

Shadow Strike isn't good, because it should be redundant with your other abilities.

But it's not redeundant, therefore it is good. That's like saying "Combat Reflexes/Weapon Finesse aren't good, because dextrous characters should be able to do them anyway" - that may be true, but the fact is that they can't.

Also, Shadow Strike applies to other things besides darkness - such as blur or fighting adjacent enemies in fog.



Clustered Shot is only for people who don't know how to play archers (seriously, how did it get printed? Buy/make some better arrows).

When you can't make/afford better arrows it is useful, and when you can, retraining is a thing.

[j_spencer93]

Ok well decided to use both systems feats as long as they are easily converted which is almost every one. What about the classes, could you use Pathfinder and 3.X classes together without much of a problem?
OH, need to explain my players do not want pathfinder versions of classes that 3.X has, they just want the classes that do not have a direct counter part.

[Novawurmson]

TL;DR: Consider increasing any skill prerequisites by 3. Also, some skills were combined.

One thing to watch when converting PF feats to 3.5: PF changed the skill system so that you can have only up to your level in any given skill instead of 3+your level (among other things, such as giving a +3 to a skill if it's a class skill and you have at least 1 point in it). If you consider, say the PF Assassin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/assassin) vs. the 3.5 Assassin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm), the PF Assassin needs 5 ranks in Stealth (the combined Hide+Move Silently skill) while the 3.5 Assassin requires 8 ranks in Hide and Move Silently. In both cases, a character could potentially qualify for the prestige class at level 5, it's just a different way of doing the math.

For another example, look at the Jawbreaker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/jawbreaker-combat) line; a PF character can't pick it up until level 6, while a 3.5 character (unless you adjust it) would be able to snag it at level 3.

[Snowbluff]

But it's not redeundant, therefore it is good. That's like saying "Combat Reflexes/Weapon Finesse aren't good, because dextrous characters should be able to do them anyway" - that may be true, but the fact is that they can't.

Also, Shadow Strike applies to other things besides darkness - such as blur or fighting adjacent enemies in fog.
2 parts to the statement combined into one so they can be misconstrued intentionally to prove an erroneous point.

You should be working out a way around concealment entirely. Archers take the superior Improve Precise Shot at higher levels, but you should be picking up other methods at lower levels. If your build is insufficient, a scroll should suffice. You've already anticipated the need, and you would actually get around the miss chance, too. Who'd have thunk?

Thinking the rule is bad (the printing of the feat is support for this) is another issue entirely.


When you can't make/afford better arrows it is useful, and when you can, retraining is a thing.


Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +6.Care to rethink your statement? It's a DM problem at that point. No magic bow at level six, and no couple of GP for cold iron arrows?

Oh, I just noticed something. This was the same point I just made. This is someone not taking advantage of the options provided to them innately, so they take a feat to make up for their lack of foresight. Take DR once, or don't worry about it. Not to mention good use of UMD and archer savvy aren't the only ways to solve this. Spellcasting is a good way to shore up any build, and you would be better for other reasons without having to go into "I'm a Batman!" levels.

[j_spencer93]

I know of Pathfinder's changes and make the necessary changes to the feats. Really i think i have found some really good stuff, and their new Path of War seems awesome after reading it.

[Snowbluff]

I know of Pathfinder's changes and make the necessary changes to the feats. Really i think i have found some really good stuff, and their new Path of War seems awesome after reading it.

Not native material, but DSP is markedly more competent than Paizo. I would strongly suggest their material, but I haven't gotten to play it yet. D:

[j_spencer93]

It is amazing. And if you combine it and TOB you get some really cool things. The classes in it are just wow. Although...mistypes seem to be strong in it.

[Psyren]

2 parts to the statement combined into one so they can be misconstrued intentionally to prove an erroneous point.

You should be working out a way around concealment entirely. Archers take the superior Improve Precise Shot at higher levels, but you should be picking up other methods at lower levels. If your build is insufficient, a scroll should suffice. You've already anticipated the need, and you would actually get around the miss chance, too. Who'd have thunk?

Scrolls are highly impractical solutions for an archer. They require separate actions to retrieve and use, free hands, and wealth/magic-mart to obtain, as well as checks for non-casters. There's also the thematic issue that maybe someone would just like to be a decent archer without relying on strips of parchment to do so, and are wiling to spend their feats to that effect.

Also, I don't believe anyone limited the scope to archers - certainly I didn't. DS applies to melee too.



Care to rethink your statement?

No, I wouldn't - magic arrows are still expensive at level 6, especially if you're going through 2-3 per round of combat. Certainly a bow is too expensive - a +3 bow, the lowest one capable of bypassing any non-magic form of DR, exceeds the entirety of your WBL at that level. And here again you are depending on the DM to dole out the exact items you need to succeed.

[j_spencer93]

You know this archer conversation actually helps me too. I wanted opinions on archery and was going to make a new thread but may not need too lol

[Snowbluff]

Scrolls are highly impractical solutions for an archer. They require separate actions to retrieve and use, free hands, and wealth/magic-mart to obtain, as well as checks for non-casters. There's also the thematic issue that maybe someone would just like to be a decent archer without relying on strips of parchment to do so, and are wiling to spend their feats to that effect.

Also, I don't believe anyone limited the scope to archers - certainly I didn't. DS applies to melee too.
... Are you feeling alright?

Archers -> Don't need it.
Melee -> You've made an error if you did.

As for "thematic issues," you're pretty much incompetent (In your role, IC) if you can't cast spells in the first place, and you're less competent by the quantifiable competence value of 1 feat if you take Clustered Shots. Additionally, I'd say you have an issue if it's on your sheet OoC.


No, I wouldn't - magic arrows are still expensive at level 6, especially if you're going through 2-3 per round of combat. Certainly a bow is too expensive - a +3 bow, the lowest one capable of bypassing any form of DR using magic, exceeds the entirety of your WBL at that level. And here again you are depending on the DM to dole out the exact items you need to succeed.
Arrows + longbow +1, not +3 bow. Cold Iron Arrows, Adamantine (rarely), and Silver Arrows can be made by hand, and are cheap enough alone to be considered commonly available. That covers a large majority of DR for CR appropriate encounters. Grabbing (or enchanting, if your competent*) a Holy bow (if you're in a good campaign, it's a decent value regardless versus effects like Collision) is the next step, but if you're competent, you're a caster who has a spell (or class feature, Good Domain Clerics, IIRC) that fixes it.

And it's still a DM problem again. The cold iron and silver in the world are strangely absent, but everyone is beset by werewolves... fighters aren't doing well, either.

*real feats to solve this issue are Item Familiar, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Ancestral Relic, which solve the problem and them some.

EDIT: I think I ended up describing Optimization via metaphor.:smalltongue:

[Psyren]

... Are you feeling alright?

Are comments like this necessary?



Archers -> Don't need it.
Melee -> You've made an error if you did.

For archers, Shadow Strike comes online at least 10 levels earlier than IPS. That is pretty significant.
For melee - you don't necessarily control fog, smoke, lighting conditions or enemy buffs, so I don't see how it is an error.



As for "thematic issues," you're pretty much incompetent (In your role, IC) if you can't cast spells in the first place, and you're less competent by the quantifiable competence value of 1 feat if you take Clustered Shots.

Presumably, if someone wanted to play a spellcaster, they'd play one - not roll up a mundane archer and then ask for directions to the nearest Scrollmart. And even if there is one, there are still the many logistical problems with using scrolls during a fight.


Arrows + longbow +1, not +3 bow. Cold Iron Arrows, Adamantine (rarely), and Silver Arrows can be made by hand, and are cheap enough alone to be considered commonly available. That covers a large majority of DR for CR appropriate encounters. Grabbing (or enchanting, if your competent*) a Holy bow (if you're in a good campaign, it's a decent value regardless versus effects like Collision) is the next step, but if you're competent, you're a caster who has a spell (or class feature, Good Domain Clerics, IIRC) that fixes it.

They can be made if you have the materials, facilities and time. The plot can easily result in you having none of these things. Yes, it's a DM issue, but not an unreasonable one.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Dervish Dance and Slashing Grace are pretty nice.

[Snowbluff]

Are comments like this necessary?
Twice in a row you misread a post. :smalleek:



For archers, Shadow Strike comes online at least 10 levels earlier than IPS. That is pretty significant.
For melee - you don't necessarily control fog, smoke, lighting conditions or enemy buffs, so I don't see how it is an error.
I'll grab it after deadly aim, precise shot, point blank shot, rapid shot... dammit, where do I find room for this as an archer? D:



Presumably, if someone wanted to play a spellcaster, they'd play one - not roll up a mundane archer and then ask for directions to the nearest Scrollmart. And even if there is one, there are still the many logistical problems with using scrolls during a fight.
If they wanted to be good, they would have rolled the capability in.



They can be made if you have the materials, facilities and time. The plot can easily result in you having none of these things. Yes, it's a DM issue, but not an unreasonable one. That would be the small instance to use it... but don't. OoC issues should be handled OoC, and if you're playing an archer (a very delicate playstyle) competently, you would have laid this out ahead of time.


Dervish Dance and Slashing Grace are pretty nice.
Mhm. Good to add to the collection with Shadow Blade.

[Psyren]

Twice in a row you misread a post. :smalleek:

I don't see any instances of that.



I'll grab it after deadly aim, precise shot, point blank shot, rapid shot... dammit, where do I find room for this as an archer? D:

Before level 11-15, presumably...?


That would be the small instance to use it... but don't. OoC issues should be handled OoC, and if you're playing an archer (a very delicate playstyle) competently, you would have laid this out ahead of time.

"You don't have a ready supply of cold iron/alchemical silver, a place to refine/shape it or a traveling alchemical silver/cold iron salesman handy" is not necessarily an OoC issue :smalltongue:

[IAmTehDave]

Twice in a row you misread a post. :smalleek:

1) I'll grab it after deadly aim, precise shot, point blank shot, rapid shot... dammit, where do I find room for this as an archer? D:

2) If they wanted to be good, they would have rolled the capability in.

3) That would be the small instance to use it... but don't. OoC issues should be handled OoC, and if you're playing an archer (a very delicate playstyle) competently, you would have laid this out ahead of time.


4) Mhm. Good to add to the collection with Shadow BladeStrike.

1) I thought you weren't picking up Deadly Aim? And where do you find room? 2 levels of Fighter, if you're a feat-starved mundane archer.

2) Fatuous argument. "I want to be good/competent without needing spells" "Well you should use spells then."

3) Yes, because what I want to do in a game is begin by saying "My build requires me to do X at given times, so please adjust your game so I can" to the DM. I'd much rather just be able to hop into any game and run with it. Personally not a fan of any build that requires some level of downtime to craft, since most of the campaigns I've played in have been time sensitive pretty much from start to finish.

4) Of ways to make your build work on a permanent basis regardless of any equipment or magic?

[Snowbluff]

1) I'm talking about why the feat exists in PF. You have to take Deadly Aim in PF if you're mundane. In 3.5 it's not an optimal feat, and it's a crutch in the first place.

2) It's different in 3.5. From a PF standpoint, you have no options on subsystems, so you build spells. The strongest archers are rangers, inquisitors, and clerics, right? All spellcasters.

If you aren't interested in being able to solve all problems at once you do have other party members.

3) If the DM isn't the kind to allow you the resources assumed by the game, you don't play an archer. The same way you don't play a fighter if the game doesn't give magic weapons.

4) Moar damage. All of the dex to damage feats aren't incredibly broad, so having more is good. It's a separate issue.

[Psyren]

- "Strongest archers" and "competent archers" are not the same thing, is the disconnect in your thinking here. Just like you seem to compare all PF melee to Synthesist Summoners and the like.

- "The resources assumed by the game" do not extend to specific quantities of specific materials at specific times. If DR wasn't supposed to matter at any point then it wouldn't exist.

[Snowbluff]

It's not a question of whether or not it should be there but of whether or not you know how to get around it easily. As far as you are concerned, everyone should feat tax themselves at your whim if you are DMing?

As far as DR mattering, what makes you say that? Why would they give you the option to work around it if you aren't supposed to be able to? Not to mention you are acting as if they (the 3rd edition devs) put very much thought into the system. DR is considered bad design by most people I know (but personally I'm ambivalent).

EDIT: I took a moment to think about it, Psyren. I think I have a good answer. It's about knowing what equipment to use. Pretty much the antithesis of the PF rules, where your enhancement bonus makes it so it never matters.

[Psyren]

It's not a question of whether or not it should be there but of whether or not you know how to get around it easily. As far as you are concerned, everyone should feat tax themselves at your whim if you are DMing?

No - but neither do I think that if I'm playing, the DM should bend over backwards to make sure cold iron, alchemical silver and adamantine deposits are always available to my character regardless of setting or circumstance.

"Curiously, in the middle of the goblin village/elven forest/cultist dungeon/otyugh pit, you find a pristine vein of silver and an adamantine pickaxe propped up against it."

Basically, if you want to be able to do something like bypass DR all of the time before the levels when +5 weapons are realistic, it's not a sin against nature to have that capability as part in your build.

Also, alignment-based DR matters below high levels too.

[IAmTehDave]

It's not a question of whether or not it should be there but of whether or not you know how to get around it easily. As far as you are concerned, everyone should feat tax themselves at your whim if you are DMing?

As far as DR mattering, what makes you say that? Why would they give you the option to work around it if you aren't supposed to be able to? Not to mention you are acting as if they (the 3rd edition devs) put very much thought into the system. DR is considered bad design by most people I know (but personally I'm ambivalent).

EDIT: I took a moment to think about it, Psyren. I think I have a good answer. It's about knowing what equipment to use. Pretty much the antithesis of the PF rules, where your enhancement bonus makes it so it never matters.

Whether or not DR is bad design is immaterial: it's part of the game, and you play around it or you play with it. If you're getting rid of DR anyway, then having different arrow materials doesn't matter in the first place.


1) I'm talking about why the feat exists in PF. You have to take Deadly Aim in PF if you're mundane. In 3.5 it's not an optimal feat, and it's a crutch in the first place.

2) It's different in 3.5. From a PF standpoint, you have no options on subsystems, so you build spells. The strongest archers are rangers, inquisitors, and clerics, right? All spellcasters.

If you aren't interested in being able to solve all problems at once you do have other party members.

3) If the DM isn't the kind to allow you the resources assumed by the game, you don't play an archer. The same way you don't play a fighter if the game doesn't give magic weapons.

4) Moar damage. All of the dex to damage feats aren't incredibly broad, so having more is good. It's a separate issue.
1) And yet the Force Bow is touted as an awesome weapon for archers because you can use it to basically Power Attack. (The actual Force quality can be gotten for +2 bonus) Deadly Aim is Power Attack for ranged attacks. Why is it bad as a feat if it's so good as a weapon quality (a weapon which can be sundered, disjunctioned, etc.)
2) I don't want to play a subsystem. I want to play an Archer. Why does my Archery require spellcasting? Sure I'll be a bit suboptimal, but with the right feat choices I can be a competent archer. I don't want to solve everything at once, so why do I need spells?
3) What resources are assumed by the game, pray tell? By your logic I guess I can't play an archer in Dark Sun.
4) Shadow Strike isn't "Moar damage" it's "Get around an off button of your character class"; The other feats mentioned might be able to be combined or differentiated more clearly, but that's a different issue.


- "Strongest archers" and "competent archers" are not the same thing, is the disconnect in your thinking here. Just like you seem to compare all PF melee to Synthesist Summoners and the like.

-I think a lot of people miss that plenty of folks don't want to play the "strongest" class, they want to play the character they have in their head. D&D is kind of terrible for that if the DM is an !#%!#%^ or bad and punishes players (intentionally or otherwise) for suboptimal builds. Plenty of people say "But look at what an optimized character can do, why don't you just do that?" and don't realize the answer is "Because that's not the character I want to play, and I'd like to be able to play that character with no other assumptions"


Oh, also, re Clustered Shots: It also adds all your damage together for Massive Damage Rules.

[Snowbluff]

Whether or not DR is bad design is immaterial: it's part of the game, and you play around it or you play with it. If you're getting rid of DR anyway, then having different arrow materials doesn't matter in the first place.
The shape of the post is a rectangle.


1) And yet the Force Bow is touted as an awesome weapon for archers because you can use it to basically Power Attack. (The actual Force quality can be gotten for +2 bonus) Deadly Aim is Power Attack for ranged attacks. Why is it bad as a feat if it's so good as a weapon quality (a weapon which can be sundered, disjunctioned, etc.)
2) I don't want to play a subsystem. I want to play an Archer. Why does my Archery require spellcasting? Sure I'll be a bit suboptimal, but with the right feat choices I can be a competent archer. I don't want to solve everything at once, so why do I need spells?
3) What resources are assumed by the game, pray tell? By your logic I guess I can't play an archer in Dark Sun.
4) Shadow Strike isn't "Moar damage" it's "Get around an off button of your character class"; The other feats mentioned might be able to be combined or differentiated more clearly, but that's a different issue.
1) Mhm. THe feat starved archer doesn't need to take a feat. Additionally, it does get around DR. However, it's expensive to the point I do not assume it.
2) Can you reread your post about DR to me?
3) Cheap, mundane items like cold iron arrows other special material weapons are available. The DM will give you WBL and you have somewhere to spend it at least.

If you don't have these you should make them yourself.
4) Shadow Blade. Dex to damage for Shadow Hand weapons. From one of the better splatbooks.

Shadow Strike is a feat you take if you can't manage to fix the problem another way. Gust of Wind, reading the "necessary items" thread, a light source...



-I think a lot of people miss that plenty of folks don't want to play the "strongest" class, they want to play the character they have in their head. D&D is kind of terrible for that if the DM is an !#%!#%^ or bad and punishes players (intentionally or otherwise) for suboptimal builds. Plenty of people say "But look at what an optimized character can do, why don't you just do that?" and don't realize the answer is "Because that's not the character I want to play, and I'd like to be able to play that character with no other assumptions"
Wait, are you agreeing with me or disafreeing about the cold iron arrows? Archery is already suboptimal. It's really to work, and having a good handle on what's available should affect your decision on how to proceed.


Oh, also, re Clustered Shots: It also adds all your damage together for Massive Damage Rules.
Yay... I think I can invoke that rule in PF or 3.5 without Clustered Shots to greater effect...

[IAmTehDave]

The shape of the post is a rectangle.
1) Mhm. THe feat starved archer doesn't need to take a feat. Additionally, it does get around DR. However, it's expensive to the point I do not assume it.
2) Can you reread your post about DR to me?
3) Cheap, mundane items like cold iron arrows other special material weapons are available. The DM will give you WBL and you have somewhere to spend it at least.

If you don't have these you should make them yourself.
4) Shadow Blade. Dex to damage for Shadow Hand weapons. From one of the better splatbooks.

Shadow Strike is a feat you take if you can't manage to fix the problem another way. Gust of Wind, reading the "necessary items" thread, a light source...


Wait, are you agreeing with me or disafreeing about the cold iron arrows? Archery is already suboptimal. It's really to work, and having a good handle on what's available should affect your decision on how to proceed.

Yay... I think I can invoke that rule in PF or 3.5 without Clustered Shots to greater effect...


DR is a thing that creatures have. Spellcasting is an optional thing that I don't need to have to be a character. A!=B
1) Feat Starvation sucks. If you're really that starved, would a couple levels of Fighter or Feat Rogue work? Maybe an archery-focused class with bonus feats?
2) My character doesn't cast spells. Period. Why should I need spells to do my job? Alternatively, I need to bypass DR because it's a thing that exists. The two have nothing to do with each other.
3) Where am I getting those things in Dark Sun? Ravenloft? Setting is a thing, you know, we don't all play in "Go buy stuff out of the DMG/MIC" worlds.
4) I didn't find the feat in a search of the PFSRD, so I mistook it for another. Didn't realize it was the ToB feat, as I thought we were mainly discussing PF feats.

Shadow Strike: Because you are not guaranteed to have any particular item on you. Your feats, on the other hand...

As far as agreeing/disagreeing on assumptions about the game: I think that, at many D&D tables, you should be expected to be able to grab whatever resources are necessary to play your class. It can be fun, however, to play a game where your resources are more limited. (And in such games, maybe certain assumptions of the Playground At Large might not apply)

Clustered shots: Congrats, that's all well and good if you're the DM. Otherwise? If you're using Massive Damage and the DM applies arrows individually, CS makes them all apply as one.

[Snowbluff]

As far as agreeing/disagreeing on assumptions about the game: I think that, at many D&D tables, you should be expected to be able to grab whatever resources are necessary to play your class. It can be fun, however, to play a game where your resources are more limited. (And in such games, maybe certain assumptions of the Playground At Large might not apply) Yeah some games may have more limited resources, but if that were the case, I would avoid that kind of monster as a DM. It works both ways, you see. The DM may not allow an otherwise innocuous option, but they may not make it necessary, too. DR isn't like XP or character levels. It's up to the Dm whether or not it's present in the first place.


Clustered shots: Congrats, that's all well and good if you're the DM. Otherwise? If you're using Massive Damage and the DM applies arrows individually, CS makes them all apply as one.

CS would actually nerf you if you were doing that much damage. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Many monsters as written have DR though, even DR/- or DR/epic in some cases. The occasional foe that is strong against an archer is not a problem, just like the occasional monster with SR or high saves or extranormal senses or incorporeality/invisibility is not a problem.

A game where either every foe is perfectly tailored to be weak to my character, or where all the items I need to be optimally efficient fall perfectly into my lap at the earliest possible opportunity, is not a living and breathing game world - it is just a toybox for the PCs.

[Snowbluff]

Many monsters as written have DR though, even DR/- or DR/epic in some cases. The occasional foe that is strong against an archer is not a problem, just like the occasional monster with SR or high saves or extranormal senses or incorporeality/invisibility is not a problem.

A game where either every foe is perfectly tailored to be weak to my character, or where all the items I need to be optimally efficient fall perfectly into my lap at the earliest possible opportunity, is not a living and breathing game world - it is just a toybox for the PCs.
First of all, yes it is a toybox.

Secondly, having the ability to trouble-shoot an encounter is no different from working around resistances as a caster. It's a game mechanic that does things. What you're suggesting is removing a mundane, cheap, and craftable item from an archetype of character that requires game mastery and in-character knowledge to use so they can't use an advantage that particular archetype has. You are disturbed by the concept of "shoot it with silver bullets" to the point you would have werewolves but no silver.

It's not even like they are automatically getting around the DR. If you have some random monster, the response shouldn't always be "oh crap" or "man, I am glad DR only once." "Made the knowledge roll? Cool. Cold iron? Great, I am glad I came prepared..."

[Psyren]

I'm not saying "remove the silver." I'm saying "maybe you have to choose between finding the silver (and managing/rationing it once you get it, since it's a resource), or instead use this special technique to not need it."

Though in fact, to address your point, "there are werewolves but no silver" is a perfectly reasonable state of affairs. If lycanthropes or devils or whatnot are plaguing an area, the thing you need to drive them off would logically increase in value and therefore demand.

And no, not everyone wants to play in a toybox - a game where events routinely fall in the players' favor and they have unrestricted access to any resource they desire. Succeeding despite adverse conditions can be fun too.

[j_spencer93]

on a slightly relevant note, my players actually do not use ranged combat because they swear it is impossible. Not really to sure why they think that though, since i have made plenty of ranged NPCs that kicked their arses.