A bit vague, but... "Characters failing will saves"

[Eldan]

Just a general thing I'm looking for, but I'm trying to get a general feeling for this... which character archetypes in fiction are those that fall to temptation? Which are those that are commonly fooled by illusions and the like, and who overcomes them? I was wondering because, well, D&D homebrew again, really. Thinking about who gets high will saves. I have a few suspicions, but I'd like a broader perspective.

So, help me out here. Please give me names, and perhaps short descriptions, of any fictional character at all you can think of who were either weak-willed and dominated by magic or similar effects, who gave easily in to temptation or, instead, heroically resisted or looked through magical treachery with ease.

[Rodin]

Wouldn't it depend on the work, and the genre?

For instance, in a horror movie the first one to fail his Will save is the priest. This shows just how horrible and insidious the eldritch abomination is. In a more classic fantasy adventure,, the other adventurers would fall and the priest would show a holy symbol or rally the party with a prayer, and the abomination would recoil and the fight is on. One class, two opposite reactions.

[Serpentine]

Well, anything that involves mind-control would qualify. Indy in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, for example.

I just keep getting the image of Queen Bavmorda catching Willow's magic acorn in Willow, but that's an example of a character succeeding on a Fortitude save, so is doubly not what you're after.
Oh, although, a couple of uses of fairy dust in that same movie come up.

[Anteros]

It's hard to say because we don't know how most of these abilities work. Does Obi-Wan's "these are not the droids you're looking for" even allow a saving throw? We don't know.

Overall I don't think any of the typically heroic archetypes fall under the say of these abilities any more than others. It's a fairly common trope for the hero to break out from under the bad guy's control when things are important regardless of his normal personality.

[BWR]

Does Obi-Wan's "these are not the droids you're looking for" even allow a saving throw? We don't know.
He does say the Force can have a strong influence on the weak-willed, so I guess you could call that an ST.

[Wayac]

First thing I thought of was Lord of the Rings. Boromir, great war hero, son of a (might as well be) king gives in to temptation that eventually leads to his ruin. Frodo, the bearer of the burden succumbs to it at the very last moment. On the other side, Samwise the faithful companion resists the same temptation and instead saves his friend. Gandalf (wizard, mentor) and Aragorn (reluctant hero) are wise enough to straight up avoid the temptation in the first place.

Not familiar with D&D rules so not sure if seduction requires a will save. If so there are two examples from the Old Testament that came to mind. Joseph, sold into slavery by his jealous brothers, works his way up to head of his master's household, but then his master's wife tries to seduce him. He refuses her advances even though it ends up getting him falsely accused and thrown into prison. Contrast that with David, war hero/chosen one turned king who one day spies the wife of one of his officers bathing. He gives in to temptation and sleeps with her which later drives him to have her husband killed so David could marry her.

Question for D&D experts: Would blackmail/forced hand situations require a will save? For example, bad guy threatens a character "do what I want" "or I'll harm [insert loved one here]"/"and I'll give you what you desire most". Player characters would probably want to make their own choice but would it be interesting to watch an important NPC make such a decision based on a dice roll?

[Eldan]

Don't think too much of hte "will save" part, really. I'm just looking for examples of people being seduced, mind controlled, falling to illusions, giving into temptation, etc.

The blackmail part probably depends on teh game rules, but in the editions of D&D I know, it wouldn't. Will saves are usually reserved for magic.

[Temotei]

Question for D&D experts: Would blackmail/forced hand situations require a will save? For example, bad guy threatens a character "do what I want" "or I'll harm [insert loved one here]"/"and I'll give you what you desire most". Player characters would probably want to make their own choice but would it be interesting to watch an important NPC make such a decision based on a dice roll?

Nah. An NPC would just go with what fits in the story/their personality. At most, a Sense Motive check to determine seriousness.

[comicshorse]

Well in the movies Thor seems to have a weakness to illusions or to quote his dear brother 'Are you ever not going to fall for that'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1txy90Qe7qc

[J-H]

The ones who are jealous or insecure, typically due to status and/or family relationships.

-Edmund, from The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe
-Boromir
-Yeo Woon, from Warrior Baek Dong Soo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrior_Baek_Dong-soo)
-Bidam from Great Queen Seon-Deok (another Korean drama)
-Loki (temptation)

[Mad Hattington]

First thing I thought of was Lord of the Rings. Boromir, great war hero, son of a (might as well be) king gives in to temptation that eventually leads to his ruin. Frodo, the bearer of the burden succumbs to it at the very last moment. On the other side, Samwise the faithful companion resists the same temptation and instead saves his friend. Gandalf (wizard, mentor) and Aragorn (reluctant hero) are wise enough to straight up avoid the temptation in the first place.



Funnily, Frodo already succumbed way earlier in Bags End, when he wasn't able to throw the ring into a fire, that, to his knowledge, wouldn't do anything to it. At that time, he had already given in to the ring partly

[DigoDragon]

How about Ray in Ghostbusters II when he was staring at the painting a bit too long and couldn't look away?

[Traab]

The Worf is more a trope than an archetype, but I think it counts. Basically, often in stories you will have the already established grand champion good guy who fails his will save. Its done to establish just how powerful the bad guy is, and to leave an opening for the protagonist to rise in skill until he can defeat him. In D@D terms, it is the king who sent you on the quest in the first place, the high priest who falls under the control of the great evil, the head of the order of paladins you are a squire in, who falls and becomes something else.

More specific terms, Denethor failed his will save against Saruon with the palantirs. He was unable to exert enough willpower to force it to show him what he wanted, and instead was shown what sauron wanted him to see in order to break his spirit.

Sparhawk in the Elenium had to win his will save to command Bhelliom at the start. It was always a battle of wills to make it do what he wanted. I suppose in a way the insectoid creature that served Azash was making people fail will saves because he could turn them into mindless drones he controlled like an army of disposable minions. Aphrael could make you auto fail a will save with a single kiss to the cheek.

Back to ghostbusters 2. Not only did ray fail a will save, that foreign guy who worked at the museum did big time.

In harry potter, I would count the brother wands meeting in the graveyard a will save encounter. Whoever had the highest roll on will won the contest. Voldemort lost. Same for 5th year when voldemort tried to posses harry at the ministry, harry failed the first roll but won the next round and cast him out. Imperio is a will save encounter as well. By this point its fairly clear that harry has some major bonuses to his will save. Ron does not, as evidenced by his reaction to fleur.

[tomandtish]

Lynden Hardy's "Master of the Five Magics". Anyone who summons demons has a battle of wills with them. Those who fail are under the demon's control. (Same holds true in the sequels).

Elric often had a battle of wills with Stormbringer.

The Black Elfstone in Terry Brook's Shannara series. Allows you to absorb the power of another being. But if that power was evil it often could corrupt you if you weren't mentally strong enough. For that matter, the Sword of Shannara arguably destroys anyone who isn't strong enough to accept the complete unvarnished truth about who they really are.

Seduction is a more interesting one. We see vampires use it often, but that may be a magical effect, so a save seems appropriate. I tend to argue that for a normal non-magical seduction, it's more a reaction check subject to modifiers. Is the target married/in a relationship (and if so, how happily?). Do they have any logical reason to be suspicious (I'm on guard duty in the middle of an impenitrable fortress 1000 miles from nowhere and this person shows up inviting me to dinner and a movie). Are there other inconsistencies? (I'm in a fantasy world based on the dark ages and they invited me to a movie).

I'd also argue blackmail doesn't warrrant a will save (again, unless magic is also exerting an influence). That's usually a simple risk/cost analysis. It may also be relevant if they are engaging in blackmail or extortion.

Extortion: Extortion is a form of theft that occurs when an offender obtains money, property, or services from another person through coercion. To constitute coercion, the necessary act can be the threat of violence, destruction of property, or improper government action. Inaction of the testimony or the withholding of testimony in a legal action are also acts that constitute coercion.

EX: If you don't give me 1000gp, I'm going to burn down your shop.

Blackmail: Blackmail, in contrast to extortion, is when the offender threatens to reveal information about a victim or his family members that is potentially embarrassing, socially damaging, or incriminating unless a demand for money, property, or services is met. Even if the information is true or actually incriminating, you can still be charged with blackmail if you threaten to reveal it unless the victim meets your demand.

EX: If you don't give me 1000gp, I'll tell the Queen that you slept with her child out of wedlock.

Again, usually it's weighing the cost of what the extorter/blackmailer is demanding versus the cost of what they are threatening you with. If any check is needed, it would be one to determine how accurately the character assesses the long-range plans. Let's take a blackmailer for example. They have a few options:

1) Take a one-time score and walk away.
2) Take a one-time score and reveal the information anyway.
3) Take multiple payments for however long they feel they can get away with then walk away
4) Take multiple payments for however long they feel they can get away with and reveal the information anyway.

(I'm sure there are others, these are just a few).

So your victim has to decide if the cost of meeting the demand is worth it AFTER they decide which of the above options the blackmailer is going to use (and they may guess wrong). Often what happens (esp. in literature) with blackmail is that the blackmailer makes a demand (apparent one-time payment), the victim pays, and THEN the blackmailer asks for a second, and then third payment.

[TheThan]

Well, anything that involves mind-control would qualify. Indy in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, for example.

I just keep getting the image of Queen Bavmorda catching Willow's magic acorn in Willow, but that's an example of a character succeeding on a Fortitude save, so is doubly not what you're after.
Oh, although, a couple of uses of fairy dust in that same movie come up.


Or when willow makes the baby disappear using his disappearing pig trick, Bavmorda is shocked so much she knocks her own spell components over and dies or gets banished or whatever she was trying to do with the baby (memory’s a little rusty). she failed her save to see through the illusion, as in the effect of making the kid disappear and apparently go where he said she would.

[Dienekes]

Just a general thing I'm looking for, but I'm trying to get a general feeling for this... which character archetypes in fiction are those that fall to temptation? Which are those that are commonly fooled by illusions and the like, and who overcomes them? I was wondering because, well, D&D homebrew again, really. Thinking about who gets high will saves. I have a few suspicions, but I'd like a broader perspective.

So, help me out here. Please give me names, and perhaps short descriptions, of any fictional character at all you can think of who were either weak-willed and dominated by magic or similar effects, who gave easily in to temptation or, instead, heroically resisted or looked through magical treachery with ease.

Off the top of my head? Faust and Odysseus fall to temptations and illusion. So does Sir Lancelot and King Arthur. Boromir of course. So that's one scientist, one trickster/warrior, one king/warrior, and two warriors.

Basically tragic heroes really. Though you could make a case that Odysseus isn't tragic, but most people forget that his son with Circe comes back later and kills him.

Some more modern examples.

Sandor Clegane fails his Will Save vs his phobia, fire, when the bay burns.
Eli Thompson and Jimmy Darmody are seduced with the promise of power at the end of season 1 of Boardwalk Empire
Darth Vader
The entire Justice League (except the Goddamn Batman) fail their Will Saves vs Sleep in Justice League. Though Bats had coffee on his side
Everyone who ever fights evil Professor X.
Depending on what you think is happening Ash Williams may have failed a Will Save (or 3) in Evil Dead 2. Though he turns into an implacable man in the third one. Just one with terrible attention.

[Legato Endless]

Belkar, explicitly shown in universe.

Beast boy in Teen Titans, who is ridiculously easy to hypnotize into a stupor.

Xander and Kendra in Buffy. Xander's is mostly played for comedy, but Kendra's is notable for being an actual on screen representation of what failing one kind of will save in DnD would actually look like as her opponent explicitly "casts" a save or suck effect.

Some incarnations of Lois Lane.

[Broken Crown]

I think one of the biggest factors is whether or not the character is a tragic figure.

A non-tragic hero will break free of any illusion, enchantment, or temptation in time to save the day.

A tragic hero will only break free in time to be confronted with the horror of what s/he's done, and be destroyed by it.

(It is, of course, a given that a character will need to break free of the enchantment; if the character never succumbs to the enchantment in the first place, the whole thing is narratively pointless.)

[Eldan]

Interesting. Seems pretty evenly spread out over skillset-archetypes, then.

[Kitten Champion]

hmmm...

Eve, the serpent, the apple, and in the Garden of Eden.

Pandora and the box.

Bacchus/Dionysus and everyone he ***** with - Midas, Pentheus, the Maenads, Thebes in general, King Lycurgus, Thrace in general -- in short, just being near madness personified is going to suck.

Luke Skywalker succumbs to visions of his friends in danger in Empire Strikes back.

Tyler Durden of Fight Club, although he does ultimately break free from his psychosis.

Gaius Baltar in new Battlestar Galactica, who personifies weak-willed amoral spinelessness masked by charismatic genius. You could probably extend this to the Cylon infiltrators who believed they were humans with free will.

Alex from Clockwork Orange.

Tron from the recent Tron sequel.

Terra Branford from Final Fantasy VI, under the effects of an Imperial mind control crown. Likewise Kain from Final Fantasy III being controlled by Golbez. The Queen (I've forgotten her name) from Final Fantasy IX who was controlled by Kuja. all eventually being freed.

Cyber-Newtypes in the UC Gundam series are presented as having been brainwashed with a specific berserk button implanted into them that drives them into homicidal rages, I can't think of any which didn't eventually die. Generally they're seen as tragic victims, having to be killed or throwing their lives away despite any attempts to save themselves.

In Bleach, all the characters who've undergone Aizen's complete hypnosis are incapable of seeing through it regardless of mental strength. The characters are nearly completely helpless as a result, even grievously wounding their own allies due to his illusions.

There are loads of instances in the Star Trek franchise

The original series pilot The Menagerie where Captain Pike is put into an alien zoo and confronted with illusions. He manages to succeed in his will check via focusing on his hatred, an emotion disquieting to the evolved aliens.

There's the Naked Now in TNG where everyone is overcome by a plot disease that makes them all act like drunk idiots and nearly destroys the Enterprise only to be saved by Wesley Crusher (of course). They struggle against losing their rationality and basic dignity, eventually succeeding in their will check - kind of - and creating a cure.

There's The Game, where evil aliens introduced a.. um, game-type-thing, which was actually a mind control device that functioned like an addictive drug into the Enterprise via Riker. It managed to convert the whole crew into pliant zombie-like puppets, but Wesley Crusher (of course) who evaded the game long enough to help Data (an android and immune, unlike in the Naked Now for some reason) to tech-tech a solution

Three episodes of Voyager

In Persistence of Vision an alien ***** with Voyager for no apparent reason by drawing illusions from the crew's memories and desires. Those who could avoid interacting with the illusions wouldn't be drawn into them. (*Edit, no Janeway failed her will check here too eventually) Kes (who's a powerful psychic and thus immune) managed to succeed in her will check and save the ship.

In Coda an alien ***** with Janeway, trying to convince her that she's dead and a ghost or something so it could eat her soul. It showed her illusions of the crew mourning her loss and generally shamelessly ego-stroking her - but Janeway succeeds her will check (of course) and the alien is sent back from whence it came.

In Bliss, an alien space anomaly thingy ***** with Voyager in order to eat it, as apparently that's its nature. It used the crew's desire to get home to project thoughts and images of itself as a wormhole home, becoming more insidious in manipulating them as time went by. Seven of Nine, who didn't really want to go to Earth for her own reasons, was exempt from this group delusion and thus free to save the ship.

One instance of Deep Space Nine I liked

In The Sword of Kahless, the episode revolves around Worf and aged Klingon warrior Kor on a quest for the titular weapon - comparable to The Holy Grail for the Klingon civilization - and how the temptation to possess it overpowers them. The sheer symbolic weight of the object drives the two venerable warriors into nearly killing one another, despite neither being intrinsically weak-willed or greedy. They do, after initially failing their will checks, succeed in realizing that the sword would only bring more chaos like they had experienced and choose instead to beam it into space.

[Calemyr]

Likewise Kain from Final Fantasy III being controlled by Golbez.

Failed will saves personified. I can't remember where I saw it (I think it was Captain SNES), but someone pointed out that Kain is the poster boy for the dangers of powerful warriors with crap will saves.

[Traab]

Failed will saves personified. I can't remember where I saw it (I think it was Captain SNES), but someone pointed out that Kain is the poster boy for the dangers of powerful warriors with crap will saves.

What about Cloud from FF7? Being forced to turn over the black materia seems like one heck of a will fail. Same for at the crater when he once again gave sephiroth the black materia.

[hamishspence]

Disney might have a few. The Sultan in Aladdin fails his will save against Jafar's staff a few times, and passes it only once: "But you're so old!"

Ariel's voice, when used by Ursula, might be asserting a magical mind-effecting power on Prince Eric (we even see a glow in his eyes).

These are just the first that spring to mind.